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Imperialisium
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Postby Imperialisium » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:29 am

Union Princes wrote:So Russia escalated the conflict and then invaded. Sounds like they are the aggressors here


That is literally the polar opposite.

If people are going to do a TL;DR at least be accurate in giving the TL;DR.

The course of events is as follows.

>Ukraine seeks to justify re-igniting the Donbas War, which had been pretty quiet for some years due to ceasefires and armistices. No real major fighting between Ukrainian and Separatist forces since 2016. Only the occasional pot shot every few weeks from either side. DPR and LPR recognized by Russia during this time as legitimate movements and Republics.

>Ukraine fires first. Blaming the Separatists while the Separatists blame the Ukrainians (but haven't actually fired back).

>Separatists do finally fire back but the Ukrainians begin a second, longer, preparatory bombardment.

>Ukrainian forces then invade which break any final truces, armistices, and ceasefire agreements both sides had signed. Ukraine is now firmly the aggressor since the Separatists haven't done anything else beyond their retaliatory strike and are only fighting defensively.

>Russia, clearly appalled at this flagrant disregard of years of diplomacy which had kept the Donbas conflict quiet. Launches an artillery strike on only one part of the Ukrainian army on Separatist soil. The strike itself not even deliberately meant to cause much damage given it was unguided ordinance fired at range. Only a few shells and rockets per piece. To try and make Ukraine back off back to their ceasefire lines. This precedent has been done by numerous nations historically in other conflicts and therefore would not, and should not, be seen as aggressive by Russia.

>Ukraine then launches deliberate artillery strikes against Russian artillery on Russian soil. Effectively, declaring war on Russia by this act since they're now conducting an aggressively hostile act on Russian soil without warning or justifiable pretense in the eyes of the international community. (I know Ukraines POV is different but this is to dispel clear OOC confusion).

>Russia, now double appalled that Ukraine would not only tear up all diplomatic agreements but then move to attack other nations directly when they try to enforce treaties Ukraine signed. Mobilizes its Belarusian and Western military districts for Operation Southern Star and Zapad. Knowing that Ukraine cares not for diplomacy and is willing to use any means necessary to achieve its public goals.

>Russia, then officially declares on Ukraine despite a state of war de facto existing between them ever since Ukraine violated Russian territory by launching their prior attack.

>Ukraine then de jure declares war despite already de facto being at war.

So no, Ukraine has been the sole escalatory body in this conflict.
Last edited by Imperialisium on Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hanovereich
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Postby Hanovereich » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:33 am

Was there any diplomacy beforehand? You didn’t have to open fire to get the Ukranians to back down.
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Imperialisium
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Postby Imperialisium » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:35 am

Hanovereich wrote:Was there any diplomacy beforehand? You didn’t have to open fire to get the Ukranians to back down.


I didn't but hard to do diplomacy when the Ukrainians are like mid-offensive and they were doing pretty well. Be like trying to have Germany in WW1 mid-Operation Michael come to the table. Germany could be like "Why? We're winning..."
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Revlona
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Postby Revlona » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:37 am

Hanovereich wrote:Was there any diplomacy beforehand? You didn’t have to open fire to get the Ukranians to back down.

There was diplomacy attempts by Ukraine to resume the status quo and actually come back to the table about ending the conflict, but this was after the artillery strikes had been done and already to late in the eyes of the Russians.
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Antimersia
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Postby Antimersia » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:38 am

Union Princes wrote:So Russia escalated the conflict and then invaded. Sounds like they are the aggressors here


If you poke a bear, and the bear mauls you, its your fault.

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Hanovereich
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Postby Hanovereich » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:39 am

Yes, but did the bear maul you first?
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Antimersia
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Postby Antimersia » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:40 am

Hanovereich wrote:Yes, but did the bear maul you first?


seems to me, like you built a house in woods belonging to the bear. bear went into your living room because that is where he is used to going when he is out hunting. you poke him to get him to leave, he mauls you.

not cut and dry but frankly i side with the bear.

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Revlona
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Postby Revlona » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:41 am

Antimersia wrote:
Hanovereich wrote:Yes, but did the bear maul you first?


seems to me, like you built a house in woods belonging to the bear. bear went into your living room because that is where he is used to going when he is out hunting. you poke him to get him to leave, he mauls you.

not cut and dry but frankly i side with the bear.


That’s uh…an interesting example

I think I'm siding with the Human for not wanting a bear in his living room
Last edited by Revlona on Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hanovereich
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Postby Hanovereich » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:45 am

Same as Revlona.
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Imperialisium
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Postby Imperialisium » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:47 am

Revlona wrote:
Hanovereich wrote:Was there any diplomacy beforehand? You didn’t have to open fire to get the Ukranians to back down.

There was diplomacy attempts by Ukraine to resume the status quo and actually come back to the table about ending the conflict, but this was after the artillery strikes had been done and already to late in the eyes of the Russians.


>Ukraine winning against Separatists.

>Launches attack on Russia

Russia: Omae wa mou shindeiru...

Ukraine: N-NANI?! MA-MASAKA!

Russia: BAAAH PAPA PADABABADAH!
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Antimersia
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Postby Antimersia » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:49 am

Revlona wrote:
Antimersia wrote:
seems to me, like you built a house in woods belonging to the bear. bear went into your living room because that is where he is used to going when he is out hunting. you poke him to get him to leave, he mauls you.

not cut and dry but frankly i side with the bear.


That’s uh…an interesting example

I think I'm siding with the Human for not wanting a bear in his living room


yeah but isn't the bear being nice for not tearing down your house for building it in his hunting ground? he aint bothering you being in your living room. he's just there. then you go and poke him.

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Union Princes
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Postby Union Princes » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:49 am

I have to side with Revlona. The bear doesn't belong in the living room any more than it is allowed to enter his yard
Last edited by Union Princes on Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hanovereich
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Postby Hanovereich » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:50 am

Frankly a bear in your living room does not seem very nice. And remember this bear has the ability to talk it out.
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Revlona
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Postby Revlona » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:50 am

Imperialisium wrote:
Revlona wrote:There was diplomacy attempts by Ukraine to resume the status quo and actually come back to the table about ending the conflict, but this was after the artillery strikes had been done and already to late in the eyes of the Russians.


>Ukraine winning against Separatists.

>Launches attack on Russia

Russia: Omae wa mou shindeiru...

Ukraine: N-NANI?! MA-MASAKA!

Russia: BAAAH PAPA PADABABADAH!


Not going to lie

That is a certified bop
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Antimersia
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Postby Antimersia » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:51 am

Hanovereich wrote:Frankly a bear in your living room does not seem very nice. And remember this bear has the ability to talk it out.


so you poke this bear, and as he is about to maul you you are like "wait lets talk about this!" like, you still started shit. don't poke a bear you can't fight off.

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Revlona
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Postby Revlona » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:51 am

Antimersia wrote:
Revlona wrote:
That’s uh…an interesting example

I think I'm siding with the Human for not wanting a bear in his living room


yeah but isn't the bear being nice for not tearing down your house for building it in his hunting ground? he aint bothering you being in your living room. he's just there. then you go and poke him.


You go and poke him because he was otherwise being passive while being parked in your house. Knowing bears this is no longer your house in its eyes but his, so you either poke it and try to get it out of your home or he mauls you in your sleep cause you let a bear stay in your home.
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Antimersia
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Postby Antimersia » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:53 am

Revlona wrote:
Antimersia wrote:
yeah but isn't the bear being nice for not tearing down your house for building it in his hunting ground? he aint bothering you being in your living room. he's just there. then you go and poke him.


You go and poke him because he was otherwise being passive while being parked in your house. Knowing bears this is no longer your house in its eyes but his, so you either poke it and try to get it out of your home or he mauls you in your sleep cause you let a bear stay in your home.


it was already his though. you came in while he was hibernating and built your house on his hunting grounds.

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Segmentia
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Postby Segmentia » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:53 am

This is a dumb analogy.
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Hanovereich
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Postby Hanovereich » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:54 am

Don’t use the ‘nature of bears’ thing. Other than that the analogy works out.
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Antimersia
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Postby Antimersia » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:55 am

yeah but it is working to keep people on the same page at least

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Revlona
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Postby Revlona » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:55 am

Segmentia wrote:This is a dumb analogy.

This lmao
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Union Princes
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Postby Union Princes » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:56 am

If we want to split hairs, said human in the allegory has been living in the forest just as long as said bear. Ukrainians didn't just pop into existence in the 21st century. The bear is the aggressor when it's clearly invading the home despite knowing full well it belongs to the human. That house has been standing in that forest for at least three to four centuries and only recently did the human put a "No bears allowed" sign
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Hanovereich
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Postby Hanovereich » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:57 am

But the sign has been there long enough for the bear to notice it.
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Union Princes
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Postby Union Princes » Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:58 am

Hanovereich wrote:But the sign has been there long enough for the bear to notice it.


Exactly
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Antimersia
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Postby Antimersia » Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:05 am

us-india cowrite posted

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