New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[Joohan]

No no, no issues. Just wanted new comers who are still making apps to be able to get into the new IC without having to worry about any drama right off the bat.

Y'all have been good so far.

[Suriyanakhon]

What was the status of my app, accepted or rejected?

[Joohan]

What was the status of my app, accepted or rejected?

accepted

[G-Tech Corporation]

Well then the solution to that problem is quite simple - let Icedonia handle their safety. The imperial military is barred from occupying the area, as per the treaty, and the Kindreds themselves certainly don't posses the manpower or resources necessary to militarize, not after the total devastation from the war.

See, that would have been a fine solution - before the war. Now putting the very people who cost the Kindreds so many lives in charge of her defense is hardly politically feasible, either for the Imperium or the leaders of the Five.

You're high if you think that demilitarization doesn't count for the civilian and private sectors of the Imperium. You using mercenaries and arms dealers as proxies to get around that fact is about as valid, say, me decommissioning the North Army from service, giving all the former soldiers their weapons, armor, and other gear as a severance package, and then clandestinely ordering them to go and burn Nevis to the ground as " Private Citizens "

If there were any confusion about that matter, it would be quickly cleared up when we return those criminals back to the Imperium in chains and some niffty new scars! The Imperium absolutely can, and for the sake of the four kindred, would forbid any sale of military supplies or personnel to them by the part of their own civilian populace or other would be proxies.

And exactly how would would Icedonia effect such a result? Mind you, of course, that this is not an official effort of the Imperium - it is simply the natural flow of demand which a society under threat capable of importing means to meet that threat from an external market partakes in. The Imperium is no more making her weapons and veterans available to the Kindreds than she is to, say, Hibernia, but neither is she such a society where such a flow can be meaningfully interdicted, even if she were so inclined. And she is not. Denying military allies the ability to arm themselves is quite foolish.

If the Imperium refused this, and continued to violate the demand for demilitarization, then the North Army - a standing professional army that sits right along the northern border, and could get to Nevis in a day - would quickly move, exterminate the surviving clans, burn the mission, tear down the old fort, and capture whatever guards you had there, and be back in Icedonia by the time Vladimir ever even hears about it.

There is no way that the Imperium is going to weasel it's way into remilitarizing that land - were you to try, we would move in and kill them all before you got the chance to send reinforcements to save them. If you are honestly concerned about the safety of the Dusk Isle's only Christian community, then leave them alone. I don't know if you've noticed or not, but Issac is pretty tolerant in terms of religion. Between all the North Sea powers, we're the only one's who don't have some kind of policy. Our virtue cults aren't state sanctioned ( save one ), and are not at odds with Christianity. We're the only polity that has explicitly forbade harrassment of Christian missionaries - and unlike Hibernia, we don't care what you print on your bible. Icedonia isn't exactly a culture that would be too receptive to Christianity, but we're not hostile to it. If your concern is with their safety, then stop trying to turn their homeland into a threat to our's.

As I've noted before, given you took the explicit effort to ensure the Kindreds were allowed to revoke their oaths to the Imperium, the Kindreds are, both legally and functionally, an independent power. The Imperium is no more in command of whether the Kindreds themselves possess a defensive force than they are in the matter of Icedonia possessing a defensive force. If you think the Kindreds would have agreed to permanent demilitarization of their own lands, while having Icedonia's military, who just engaged in offensive warfare against them, sitting nearby, and simultaneously agreeing to a functional Imperial withdrawal, I'd challenge you to point me to any similar treaty in the history of humankind that didn't involve occupation.

Thus the calculus is simple. If you want to posit that the Kindreds have no personal defensive capability and thus cannot resist a rabble of less-developed raiders from the north, you have to posit an Icedonian occupation of the Kindreds. If you posit an Icedonian occupation of the Kindreds, you're saying that Icedonia is incapable of defending her people from a rabble of less-developed raiders from the north. You're also positing that Icedonia had another handy war with the Imperium after she broke her treaty and occupied the Kindreds, which, believe me, will not have been kind to her coastal holdings. Probably not kind to her inland holdings either, really.

The choice is yours. Either the Kindreds have their own military as an independent power, which it is illogical to assume is incapable of fending off some raiders. Or the Kindreds were occupied by Icedonia to prevent them having their own military, and Icedonia's coastal holdings are so much ash and blood.

[Joohan]

See, that would have been a fine solution - before the war. Now putting the very people who cost the Kindreds so many lives in charge of her defense is hardly politically feasible, either for the Imperium or the leaders of the Five.

Well it's the only way that would make sense logistically. By the time the Imperium is able to jump through all the hoops to heed Nevis's call, the threat will have grown exponentially, and or possibly passed by.

And exactly how would would Icedonia effect such a result? Mind you, of course, that this is not an official effort of the Imperium - it is simply the natural flow of demand which a society under threat capable of importing means to meet that threat from an external market partakes in. The Imperium is no more making her weapons and veterans available to the Kindreds than she is to, say, Hibernia, but neither is she such a society where such a flow can be meaningfully interdicted, even if she were so inclined. And she is not. Denying military allies the ability to arm themselves is quite foolish.

Nevis is not Hibernia, in that it inhabits a delicate political and military limbo state between the Imperium and Icedonia. The Imperium has agreed to demilitarize those lands, a fact that importing arms and mercenaries would be in violation of. Perhaps there is a demand for the four kindred, but Imperial business's are under no obligation to fulfill it, and indeed, could easily be restrained by higher authorities. All traffic from the Imperium to Nevis has to first go through Westpoint does it not? Just vet those vessels going north, and send up schedules to the Havenport for expected shipments. Any smugglers who get past this point can then be picked up along the Icedonian coast by our local authorities.

The Imperium should very well be reticent towards not violating the DMZ, for the sake of their military allies.

As I've noted before, given you took the explicit effort to ensure the Kindreds were allowed to revoke their oaths to the Imperium, the Kindreds are, both legally and functionally, an independent power. The Imperium is no more in command of whether the Kindreds themselves possess a defensive force than they are in the matter of Icedonia possessing a defensive force.

Yes, but you are also in no way obligated to provide them with the means for such a defensive force - and indeed, are actually obliged to do the opposite.

If you want to posit that the Kindreds have no personal defensive capability and thus cannot resist a rabble of less-developed raiders from the north,

That is exactly what I am positing. During the war, Icedonia wiped out no less than 20% of their entire population with the extermination of Klothis alone. In the months that followed, with the imp's using the natives as supporting warriors, we know doubt killed hundreds more. This region easily lost a third of it's total population during the fighting, who no doubt constituted the bulk of their productive workforce. Do you know of any area on Earth at any time that has lost a third of it's populace and was able to rebound in only ten years? Europe experimented along similar parameters during the black death, and for those areas that didn't completely collapse ( for which there were many ) it would take nearly a century for most areas to recover. It's been ten years for the four kindred, and no doubt they are today worse off than they were before the Imperials first ever came to their shores. The haven is easily the most battered, destitute, and weary region along the entire eastern seaboard, and it's people are only just able to make ends meet - forget creating enough wealth to attract trade from the Imperium; the same goes with being able to afford arms and mercenaries. I am to be expected to believe that the impoverished, weary, and destitute kindred are able to not only bring in trade from the Imperium, but are able to generate enough wealth that they can afford to buys enough arms and mercenaries to fend off thousands of refugees descending along their borders? This, in addition to the fact that Icedonia has made it a priority to prevent violations to the DMZ? Unlikely.

If you posit an Icedonian occupation of the Kindreds, you're saying that Icedonia is incapable of defending her people from a rabble of less-developed raiders from the north.

We're absolutely more than capable of doing that, and the best way to protect them would be to bring them down into Service boundaries. No one would dare touch them once inside the Service, seeing as how everyone is dependent upon southern wells and the Servants granary.

The choice is yours. Either the Kindreds have their own military as an independent power, which it is illogical to assume is incapable of fending off some raiders.

[/quote]

Well this first assumes that the kindred would even be able to raise a military of their own ( of what exactly, broken men, widows, and orphans? ), or even afford to buy one capable of fending off thousands of fleeing refugees ( which I listed above as unlikely ), and that the Imperium chose to outright violate the treaty by using civilian proxies to remilitarize the DMZ.

You're gonna have to face the fact, that there is no way that Icedonia would ever allow for the DMZ to ever remilitarize - it's just not happening. If we found out about Imperial attempts to violate the treaty, we would kill them all without a second thought, and by the time Vladimir found out we'd already be back manning our coastal forts ready to bash the brains out of whatever the Imperium managed to muster. The only way that the people of the Haven survive this, is if the Imperium upholds their end of the treaty, and restrains itself, it's citizenry, and it's proxies from remilitarizing.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Nevis is not Hibernia, in that it inhabits a delicate political and military limbo state between the Imperium and Icedonia. The Imperium has agreed to demilitarize those lands, a fact that importing arms and mercenaries would be in violation of. Perhaps there is a demand for the four kindred, but Imperial business's are under no obligation to fulfill it, and indeed, could easily be restrained by higher authorities. All traffic from the Imperium to Nevis has to first go through Westpoint does it not? Just vet those vessels going north, and send up schedules to the Havenport for expected shipments. Any smugglers who get past this point can then be picked up along the Icedonian coast by our local authorities.

The Imperium should very well be reticent towards not violating the DMZ, for the sake of their military allies.

As I've noted before, and you seem to be content to gloss over - the Kindreds are not a DMZ in the modern sense of the word, save for that the Imperium does not herself maintain a military force there. Nevis itself is most certainly a place the Imperium isn't going to militarize, but that has nothing to do with the Kindreds in general. Perhaps your ships are not up to sailing for three days from Altamonte directly to Nevis, but Imperial civilian traffic has no such compunctions.

Yes, but you are also in no way obligated to provide them with the means for such a defensive force - and indeed, are actually obliged to do the opposite.

Hardly. Our peace treaty said nothing about commercial restrictions. The Imperium has no obligations to do anything in regard to the Kindreds at this point except for A) maintain Nevis as a demilitarized zone and embassy with Icedonia and B) come to their aid if attacked. The withdrawal of the Imperial military forces from the Kindreds is a condition of the cessation of warfare, not one which, obviously, will have any standing if warfare is re-initiated.

I am to be expected to believe that the impoverished, weary, and destitute kindred are able to not only bring in trade from the Imperium, but are able to generate enough wealth that they can afford to buys enough arms and mercenaries to fend off thousands of refugees descending along their borders? This, in addition to the fact that Icedonia has made it a priority to prevent violations to the DMZ? Unlikely.

Easily. We're talking about the people of northern England, who are even further away from Icedonia's technological bubble, even less organized, even less militarized, and without the goodwill of a local power. Historically speaking, these are people who have only very technically entered the Chalcolithic. A single vaguely important House of the Landsraad could put together enough of a ramshackle force with third-rate soldiers and fourth-rate weapons to minimize the trouble such people offer the Kindreds, and they certainly have more goodwill than that.

We're absolutely more than capable of doing that, and the best way to protect them would be to bring them down into Service boundaries. No one would dare touch them once inside the Service, seeing as how everyone is dependent upon southern wells and the Servants granary.

And incapable of defending the peoples of the north in the lands where they live, then? I thought Icedonia had something which vaguely resembled an army.

Well this first assumes that the kindred would even be able to raise a military of their own ( of what exactly, broken men, widows, and orphans? ), or even afford to buy one capable of fending off thousands of fleeing refugees ( which I listed above as unlikely ), and that the Imperium chose to outright violate the treaty by using civilian proxies to remilitarize the DMZ.

If Icedonia had ever included any notes on commercial traffic in her treaty, I might be inclined to agree that the Imperium would feel compunctions about supplying weapons to military allies. Since she didn't and since, as I noted above, the idea of the Kindreds being some sort of DMZ is laughable, I can't see any reason why she would prevent legitimate trade. Unless you're positing that, say, France after the First World War was a DMZ when the Americans withdrew? Texas was a DMZ after the Mexican-American War? Then we're talking at very cross purposes. To me a DMZ is a land where no party bears arms, and to say that an independent state is a 'DMZ' boggles the mind.

You're gonna have to face the fact, that there is no way that Icedonia would ever allow for the DMZ to ever remilitarize - it's just not happening. If we found out about Imperial attempts to violate the treaty, we would kill them all without a second thought, and by the time Vladimir found out we'd already be back manning our coastal forts ready to bash the brains out of whatever the Imperium managed to muster. The only way that the people of the Haven survive this, is if the Imperium upholds their end of the treaty, and restrains itself, it's citizenry, and it's proxies from remilitarizing.

And as I've stated before, the Imperium is, in withdrawing her forces from the Kindreds, upholding her end of the treaty as agreed. If the men of Icedonia consider an independent polity on their borders having a standing military force a violation of that treaty, that is certainly their affair - but I laugh at the idea that Icedonia even possesses naval-facing fortifications, let alone that they are up to the task of defending her cities, let alone that they are up to the task of vaguely menacing the White Fleet. Fortifications take decades to raise, and Icedonia has only even been -vaguely- thinking about naval warfare for ten years.

It really is your choice. If Isaac wants to be the person butchering a few thousand civilians because they want to defend themselves, that's your call. I hope you're happy to trade Icedonia's industrial base and far more of her civilians for that exchange, though. England has a lovely array of watercourses which lead into prime agricultural land and settlements, and I've been itching to show off the greatships. I'll happily match the White Fleet against two poorly-cast bombards, a few matchstick-forts, and a lot of highly flammable buildings. Not to mention all of Icedonia's nicely nicely overextended Continental holdings.

[Suriyanakhon]

As a side note, I don't mind polishing some of the New History Book, if that's alright with you, Joohan. I had the idea to add a new war category and include the various wars between different author civilizations (wars with NPC civs would probably be excluded). That would make it much easier to track all that happened between some of the main powers since there are so many different plot threads. We are all just a bunch of GRRM alts.

[Joohan]

Hardly. Our peace treaty said nothing about commercial restrictions.

Then this will all be rather easily overcome, when Icedonia bars all imperial traffic traveling along it's coast - save for those vessels receiving permission from Israel.

Easily. We're talking about the people of northern England, who are even further away from Icedonia's technological bubble, even less organized, even less militarized, and without the goodwill of a local power. Historically speaking, these are people who have only very technically entered the Chalcolithic. A single vaguely important House of the Landsraad could put together enough of a ramshackle force with third-rate soldiers and fourth-rate weapons to minimize the trouble such people offer the Kindreds, and they certainly have more goodwill than that.

Hardly. The four kindred aren't exactly all that far removed from their northern neighbors in terms of technology or organization. They briefly were occupied by the Imperium, then were severely beaten in a war, then left to put themselves back together with a smaller and more weary populace than what they had before making outside contact. You don't lose a third of your population and then suddenly outcompete all your neighbors. The people round the haven would no doubt be more impoverished and sickly when compared to most of the refugee's descending southward, as well as being easily less numerous.

And incapable of defending the peoples of the north in the lands where they live, then? I thought Icedonia had something which vaguely resembled an army.

No need to. Were they to simply move southward, they would not need to fight at all. A much more economical solution.

If Icedonia had ever included any notes on commercial traffic in her treaty, I might be inclined to agree that the Imperium would feel compunctions about supplying weapons to military allies. Since she didn't and since, as I noted above, the idea of the Kindreds being some sort of DMZ is laughable, I can't see any reason why she would prevent legitimate trade. Unless you're positing that, say, France after the First World War was a DMZ when the Americans withdrew? Texas was a DMZ after the Mexican-American War? Then we're talking at very cross purposes. To me a DMZ is a land where no party bears arms, and to say that an independent state is a 'DMZ' boggles the mind.

Well then that's quite fine, as I said before, we'll just bar all imperial traffic along our coasts - save for a few permitted vessels. Nothing to do with embargoing the Haven, just us making sure that a hostile foreign power keeps it's distance. Your galleys are free to try and brave the open waters of the North Sea, though I don't imagine too many will live to tell the tale of the crossing. Your knarr's might do a bit better - but these are such dangerous waters. You know, I think a lot of Norse pirates have been settling round the North of England and Scotland - it'd be a shame if someone were to tell them about lonely knarrs coming in from the east whenever the winds turned.

but I laugh at the idea that Icedonia even possesses naval-facing fortifications,

Why?

vaguely menacing the White Fleet.

Galleys work very well for rivers and the Mediterranean, not so much for the north sea. You keep going on and on about the superiority of the White fleet... but I don't see it. I fought it, and the most significant weapon at it's disposal was quicklime - something which most of Northern Europe would be very capable of reproducing in not too short a timespan. Otherwise, the artillery she uses is pretty standard among all the Morning Sea powers ( now that I have shot down the fact repeating crossbows, as you initially proposed them, are mechanically impossible ), galleys are pretty common at least among Icedonia and Hibernia. The only thing that strikes me as being significant about it, is it's size.

Fortifications take decades to raise

Depends what kind you're raising. If I were erecting stone and iron citadels, you might be right; that isn't the case though. wood plastered walls, packed earth, trenches, a moat or two, and some advantageous firing positions take only a few weeks to set up - and given a few years, perfected.

It really is your choice. If Isaac wants to be the person butchering a few thousand civilians because they want to defend themselves, that's your call.

The only sticking point here is when. If the Imperium violates the DMZ, Icedonia immediately deploys and exterminates the region. Problem is, you've posited that this has been going on for years. The only way that we could work around this, is to say that the efforts of the surviving kindreds wasn't enough - which I think would be the most logical answer here. These are some of the poorest and most destitute people on the isle, in worse condition today than they were before contact with the Imperium. They're barely scrapping by on their labor, and so the idea that they are able to generate enough wealth to attract arms dealers and mercenaries is completely laughable. Whatever pitiful amounts they are able to smuggle in, obliviously, wouldn't be enough to fight off dozens of near constant raids. We can maintain your perceived history of smuggling and continue onward in the IC, under the presumption that it wasn't enough to fight off the overwhelming bulk of the North coming down onto them - which I think is a pretty fair assumption.

[Joohan]

As a side note, I don't mind polishing some of the New History Book, if that's alright with you, Joohan. I had the idea to add a new war category and include the various wars between different author civilizations (wars with NPC civs would probably be excluded). That would make it much easier to track all that happened between some of the main powers since there are so many different plot threads. We are all just a bunch of GRRM alts.

Sure, you can go ahead

[Alaroma]

Did the map get updated?

[Suriyanakhon]

I'm thinking of the various war articles to write and the Imperium of Man seems to be involved in almost all of them as an aggressor party.

Big thonks.

[New Arcadius]

Can I have some information on the situation in Egypt? because it's been a while since I've been in the game, and I need to catch up so I know what exactly to post with Gaukhar.

Because I have something planned big for the Siwan Empire.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I'm thinking of the various war articles to write and the Imperium of Man seems to be involved in almost all of them as an aggressor party.

Big thonks.

Hm. It depends where you look at, really. The ME has had plenty of wars the Imperium hasn't been involved in, and most of the wars I can think of involve interventions, not outright aggression. The only ones where the Imperium was an outright aggressor, depending on your perspective, were the Great Northern War and the little conflict in Romania.

Can I have some information on the situation in Egypt? because it's been a while since I've been in the game, and I need to catch up so I know what exactly to post with Gaukhar.

Because I have something planned big for the Siwan Empire.

Hm. Let's see. The Aksumites are making headway into establishing an alliance with the current Pharoah, and Sumeria and Nestos trade in the north. I think that's about all there is, at least recently.

@ Joohan: Since I weary of this conversation, I'll summarize what I think our salient disconnect is:

the peace treaty.

You posit that the peace treaty contains a caveat completely demilitarizing the Kindreds, not only in terms of Imperial soldiers, but also their own soldiers. Given we have no formal text of the peace treaty, it is fair that you may have assumed that. I should clarify, however, that that is not a term either the Imperium or the Kindreds would have accepted. That leaves us with two options.

1) This was a non-negotiable point for Icedonia, and a non-negotiable point for the Imperium, leading to a failure of peace talks. In that case the conflict around Nevis would have continued and escalated. I'm fine working that out, if you want to make that a non-negotiable.

2) This was a negotiable point for Icedonia, and a non-negotiable point for the Imperium, leading to it being dropped from the eventual treaty. In that case the conflict around Nevis ended as canonical, but that leaves the Kindreds in the present day in possession of their own military force - one, no doubt, up to the task of turning back a few Neolithic raiders. I'm fine with that outcome too, but that does make your post about the Kindreds migrating south due to food/water/raiding a bit implausible.

[UniversalCommons]

The Nestos League trades with Egypt in the north. They also trade with Nubia further south for ivory, hides, gold, ebony, and animals. Hossia, one of the first hands came from Nubia and they have some training with archers from Nubia. There should be a person who went to Oak named Sennefer somewhere in the Egyptian bureaucracy. There is also Scholar Sidvain who is currently undergoing initiation in Egypt under the direction of Priestess Noor. There are strong ties between the menagerie at Hierakonopolis in Egypt and the menagerie at Oak in the Nestos League. Scholar Basvaris traveled to Egypt to visit the Hierakonopolis Menagerie. He is fascinated by elephants. Scholar Basvaris is now the head of the Menagerie at Oak. The menagerie at Hierakonopolis is the worlds first zoo with animals like elephants, baboons, hyenas, turtles, and other creatures. They have a sacred and noble function.

[Joohan]

Can I have some information on the situation in Egypt? because it's been a while since I've been in the game, and I need to catch up so I know what exactly to post with Gaukhar.

Because I have something planned big for the Siwan Empire.

Well, this is around the time of the first dynasty in Egypt, so they are in the early throes of their bronze age. A number of cities, some consisting of thousands, acting as hubs of agriculture and cultural sophistication. This is still about 400 years removed from the high culture of the Old Kingdom, the erectors of the great pyramids, so the people of this region will only be passingly familiar to anyone of the modern day. The very beginning of the famous grand architecture we will come to know and associate with later dynasties, gods of familiar names such as Amun, Min, Ra, Horus, P'tah, Isis are likely being worshipped at this time - but their mythologies would be practically unrecognizable to their new kingdom counterparts. Djer would have died by now, and so Djet is likely the current high lord or king of the Hapi ( nile river ). Government won't be the centralized monolith we associate with the old kingdom for some centuries now, and likely more resembles a semi-feudal system, with the king acting as the martial overlord over his lesser rulers. It is extremely doubtful that he is worshiped as a deity yet.

As you already know, Djer gave permission to the Aksumites to trade freely across Kemet, as well as send up their missionaries, and even attempt the establishing of orphanages ( not sure how well that is going to work though, seeing as how orphans weren't a thing during this period in history, what with large families and anything that would kill all your potential caregivers would definitely also kill you ). Khemri, though no longer queen, being the favored wife of Djer, her son Djet ( should be a four year old right about now ) is currently on the throne. Effectively, she is queen mother.

[Joohan]

@ Joohan: Since I weary of this conversation, I'll summarize what I think our salient disconnect is:

the peace treaty.

You posit that the peace treaty contains a caveat completely demilitarizing the Kindreds, not only in terms of Imperial soldiers, but also their own soldiers. Given we have no formal text of the peace treaty, it is fair that you may have assumed that. I should clarify, however, that that is not a term either the Imperium or the Kindreds would have accepted. That leaves us with two options.

1) This was a non-negotiable point for Icedonia, and a non-negotiable point for the Imperium, leading to a failure of peace talks. In that case the conflict around Nevis would have continued and escalated. I'm fine working that out, if you want to make that a non-negotiable.

2) This was a negotiable point for Icedonia, and a non-negotiable point for the Imperium, leading to it being dropped from the eventual treaty. In that case the conflict around Nevis ended as canonical, but that leaves the Kindreds in the present day in possession of their own military force - one, no doubt, up to the task of turning back a few Neolithic raiders. I'm fine with that outcome too, but that does make your post about the Kindreds migrating south due to food/water/raiding a bit implausible.

Because we are now going on a full timeskip after the war, It's not really plausible to just retcon everything we've done since then. I'm willing to concede that the four remaining kindred were allowed, via the treaty, to reestablish a military of their own for convenience sake - but it wouldn't be able to defend them from much of anything at all, realistically. They are not remilitarizing from their own population, obviously, what with having lost a third of everyone five years ago. These guys would be lucky to have their population count stay the same as it was by the end of the war, though historically such situations usually led to a population decline.

This only leaves them the option to look outward, to hire out muscle - and this presents a totally different problem. Mercenary work, when there isn't express promise of loot ( such as is the case now ) is expensive. As previously stated, and owing due to their population decline and the desolation of war, these guys are impoverished and destitute, even by the standards of the rest of the island. The four remaining kindred are, at best, getting by with their daily needs. How much extra wealth do they have that can be dedicated to hiring out mercenaries? Could they hire an army equivalent to 10% of their total population? Let's say 500 people lived along the Haven before the war ( 100 to each clan ). Subtract 33% from 500, that's 335 people living there today. That's 35 fully armed and trained mercenaries. Can 35 men in chainmail with swords fight hundreds of barbarians, yes yes they can. Cortez did it afterall.

But Cortez was more fighting for his life, rather than trying to protect and hold ground. Could those 35 men not only beat raiding parties numbering in the hundreds, but do it consistently for weeks, all while defending the homesteads, storehouses, holy sites, and other important they have too? That's doubtful.

[Hudson]

Author Applicaiton
Name: Isabelle Zhou
Age: 25
Height and Weight: 5'6" and 120 lbs
Skin, hair, and eye description: Dark olive Skin; short, straight auburn Hair, brown eyes

Prior Profession: Graduate Student
Level of education (specify degrees or note worthy classes ): Bachelors of Civil Engineering, Masters of Agricultural Science, both from McGill.
Physique description: Has high endurance from hiking and backpacking, average to below average strength.
Useful skills: Comfortable with managing groups and organizing projects. Is knowledgeable about engineering and construction practice (eg. can engineer a dam, a building, or basic machines). Possesses theoretical knowledge about agricultural techniques, such as drainage, but lacks actual field experience.
Isabelle is an avid hiker and remembers some basic bushcraft skills from her time as a girl scout. She is also an experienced gardener and amateur botanist. Has knowledge of chemistry and materials from her Bachelors (eg. can run a synthesis with the right equipment, understands metal alloying as in steel and bronze).


National Origin: United States, Canada
What were you doing prior to falling asleep and awakening in the past?: Applying for Canadian citizenship.
Description of personality: Isabelle is intelligent, ambitious, and passionate. She has what many would call a take charge attitude and is incredibly strong willed. She loves reading and spending time outdoors - though she absolutely hates the desert Southwest (having grown up there), and desperately wants to return back to Montreal.
Where in the world are you landing?: El Paso, Texas

Autobiography/Biography ( paragraph minimum ): Isabelle was born to immigrant parents in El Paso and grew up an only child. Always a strong willed girl, she spend her youth in and out of trouble throughout elementary and middle school. By the time she reached high school she resolved to get out of Texas and became an (outwardly) model student and child, enrolling in girl scouts and excelling in school. Her grades and extracurriculars were enough to get into McGill University on a scholarship, where she would acquire her Bachelors in Civil Engineering and had just completed her MS in Agricultural Science. Isabelle has fallen in love with Montreal, and Canada in general and was in the process of becoming a Canadian citizen just before the accident.

Arriving in the past has been especially jarring for Isabelle, both for being transported back in time, but also back to El Paso.

What are your intentions for this RP, what's the long term goal?: To establish a China and Persia like state along the Saint Lawrence River.
What people or places are you taking inspiration from?: Confucius, Nurhaci, Machiavelli, Wu Zeitan, Pachacuti, Emperor Joseph. The Enlightenment.
Why did you chose to land where you did?: I thought it would be fun to return to back to a place the character was from, and I liked the idea of having to travel across the continent over time. The upper Rio Grande also has some notable potential domestic animals that the Saint Lawrence just doesn't have.
What vibe should we get from your civilization and it's culture?: Ultimately an Enlightenment and China inspired Meritocratic state. For now, a semi nomadic tribe, somewhat reminiscent of the Manchu.
What are your character's motivations?: To return back to Montreal and create her ideal of a state there.

[Joohan]

Author Applicaiton
Name: Isabelle Zhou
Age: 25
Height and Weight: 5'6" and 120 lbs
Skin, hair, and eye description: Dark olive Skin; short, straight auburn Hair, brown eyes

Prior Profession: Graduate Student
Level of education (specify degrees or note worthy classes ): Bachelors of Civil Engineering, Masters of Agricultural Science, both from McGill.
Physique description: Has high endurance from hiking and backpacking, average to below average strength.
Useful skills: She has a broad practical knowledge of science and engineering (particularly of Physics, Chemistry, and Materials), as well as project management experience. Has a great deal of theoretical knowledge about agriculture, and is an avid amateur botanist. She has experience with gardening, but not with large scale agriculture as of yet.

National Origin: United States, Canada
What were you doing prior to falling asleep and awakening in the past?: Applying for Canadian citizenship.
Description of personality: Isabelle is intelligent, ambitious, and passionate. She has what many would call a take charge attitude and is incredibly strong willed. She loves reading and spending time outdoors - though she absolutely hates the desert Southwest (having grown up there), and desperately wants to return back to Montreal.
Where in the world are you landing?: El Paso, Texas

Autobiography/Biography ( paragraph minimum ): Isabelle was born to immigrant parents in El Paso and grew up an only child. Always a strong willed girl, she spend her youth in and out of trouble throughout elementary and middle school. By the time she reached high school she resolved to get out of Texas and became an (outwardly) model student and child, enrolling in girl scouts and excelling in school. Her grades and extracurriculars were enough to get into McGill University on a scholarship, where she would acquire her Bachelors in Civil Engineering and had just completed her MS in Agricultural Science. Isabelle has fallen in love with Montreal, and Canada in general and was in the process of becoming a Canadian citizen just before the accident.

Arriving in the past has been especially jarring for Isabelle, both for being transported back in time, but also back to El Paso.

What are your intentions for this RP, what's the long term goal?: To establish a China and Persia like state along the Saint Lawrence River.
What people or places are you taking inspiration from?: Confucius, Nurhaci, Machiavelli, Wu Zeitan, Pachacuti, Emperor Joseph. The Enlightenment.
Why did you chose to land where you did?: I thought it would be fun to return to back to a place the character was from, and I liked the idea of having to travel across the continent over time. The upper Rio Grande also has some notable potential domestic animals that the Saint Lawrence just doesn't have.
What vibe should we get from your civilization and it's culture?: Ultimately an Enlightenment and China inspired Meritocratic state. For now, a semi nomadic tribe, somewhat reminiscent of the Manchu.
What are your character's motivations?: To return back to Montreal and create her ideal of a state there.

Wouldn't your name technically be Zhou Isabelle?

You have a degree in both civil engineering and agriculture, IRL? This is totally plausible, i'm just asking because we would prefer people not lie on their apps ( as it will be pretty clear once we're in the IC if you actually do have these credentials or not ).

For skills, what you have listed is too broad: " She has a broad practical knowledge of science and engineering (particularly of Physics, Chemistry, and Materials) " doesn't actually tell us much. Skills is a section were in one should list practical knowledge and expertise which the Author posses, as is relevant to their current situation. Knowing the atomic weight of all the Halogen elements doesn't actually help you build shelter, or find food in the natural environment. You need to be very specific. Gardening is good though.

As for the culture you intend on creating, nomadic and semi-based off the Manchu's and steppe people - you are aware that neither cows nor horses exist in North America at this time yes? Only real large mammals roaming around here are elk, bison, and grizzly bears. Just seeing if you're aware of that.

Fix the first two things, and you should be good.

[Hudson]

Author Applicaiton
Name: Isabelle Zhou
Age: 25
Height and Weight: 5'6" and 120 lbs
Skin, hair, and eye description: Dark olive Skin; short, straight auburn Hair, brown eyes

Prior Profession: Graduate Student
Level of education (specify degrees or note worthy classes ): Bachelors of Civil Engineering, Masters of Agricultural Science, both from McGill.
Physique description: Has high endurance from hiking and backpacking, average to below average strength.
Useful skills: She has a broad practical knowledge of science and engineering (particularly of Physics, Chemistry, and Materials), as well as project management experience. Has a great deal of theoretical knowledge about agriculture, and is an avid amateur botanist. She has experience with gardening, but not with large scale agriculture as of yet.

National Origin: United States, Canada
What were you doing prior to falling asleep and awakening in the past?: Applying for Canadian citizenship.
Description of personality: Isabelle is intelligent, ambitious, and passionate. She has what many would call a take charge attitude and is incredibly strong willed. She loves reading and spending time outdoors - though she absolutely hates the desert Southwest (having grown up there), and desperately wants to return back to Montreal.
Where in the world are you landing?: El Paso, Texas

Autobiography/Biography ( paragraph minimum ): Isabelle was born to immigrant parents in El Paso and grew up an only child. Always a strong willed girl, she spend her youth in and out of trouble throughout elementary and middle school. By the time she reached high school she resolved to get out of Texas and became an (outwardly) model student and child, enrolling in girl scouts and excelling in school. Her grades and extracurriculars were enough to get into McGill University on a scholarship, where she would acquire her Bachelors in Civil Engineering and had just completed her MS in Agricultural Science. Isabelle has fallen in love with Montreal, and Canada in general and was in the process of becoming a Canadian citizen just before the accident.

Arriving in the past has been especially jarring for Isabelle, both for being transported back in time, but also back to El Paso.

What are your intentions for this RP, what's the long term goal?: To establish a China and Persia like state along the Saint Lawrence River.
What people or places are you taking inspiration from?: Confucius, Nurhaci, Machiavelli, Wu Zeitan, Pachacuti, Emperor Joseph. The Enlightenment.
Why did you chose to land where you did?: I thought it would be fun to return to back to a place the character was from, and I liked the idea of having to travel across the continent over time. The upper Rio Grande also has some notable potential domestic animals that the Saint Lawrence just doesn't have.
What vibe should we get from your civilization and it's culture?: Ultimately an Enlightenment and China inspired Meritocratic state. For now, a semi nomadic tribe, somewhat reminiscent of the Manchu.
What are your character's motivations?: To return back to Montreal and create her ideal of a state there.

Wouldn't your name technically be Zhou Isabelle?

You have a degree in both civil engineering and agriculture, IRL? This is totally plausible, i'm just asking because we would prefer people not lie on their apps ( as it will be pretty clear once we're in the IC if you actually do have these credentials or not ).

For skills, what you have listed is too broad: " She has a broad practical knowledge of science and engineering (particularly of Physics, Chemistry, and Materials) " doesn't actually tell us much. Skills is a section were in one should list practical knowledge and expertise which the Author posses, as is relevant to their current situation. Knowing the atomic weight of all the Halogen elements doesn't actually help you build shelter, or find food in the natural environment. You need to be very specific. Gardening is good though.

As for the culture you intend on creating, nomadic and semi-based off the Manchu's and steppe people - you are aware that neither cows nor horses exist in North America at this time yes? Only real large mammals roaming around here are elk, bison, and grizzly bears. Just seeing if you're aware of that.

Fix the first two things, and you should be good.

Strictly yes on the name, but westernized surname practice is common in the Asian American community and I want to empathize her western and latin background more than her asian one. Its there and its existent, but its secondary. I'll go ahead and edit the skill section a bit more, I was using the accepted author's list to get a baseline. More strictly I'm in the last year of my Ag Masters (which is more focused on the engineering side of things), with my B. Eng in Civil, but I figured throwing an extra semester on would be fine for characterization purposes.

And yes, I am quite aware of both how Manchu culture is and North American native animals. The Manchu were first and foremost sheep herders. They maybe famed for their cavalry, but their society was relatively sedentary. North America, and specifically the Rio Grande (where El Paso is) does have Bighorn Sheep and Peccary (pig like species) which are native to the area and is what I intended to focus on. There's also bison, but I suppose that varies as to whether or not you accept they might be domesticable. Horses aren't important for what I was going for in, nor was I expecting them until the Atlantic (or Pacific) is crossed.

I've also gone and edited the skills section to hopefully be more specific. My background is much more science and engineering than it is things like bushcraft, so that's still what the bulk of the practical skills are. They may not help much for now, but in the medium and long term should be more useful.

[Joohan]

Very well, accepted then.

[Suriyanakhon]

> sees that we're going to have a Manchu inspired civilization
> excited because now this means more Authors in Asia besides me and Mao Jr.
> rereads app and realizes she'll be in North America

Sad peacock noises.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

> sees that we're going to have a Manchu inspired civilization
> excited because now this means more Authors in Asia besides me and Mao Jr.
> rereads app and realizes she'll be in North America

Sad peacock noises.

MAO JR!!! XD - you’re not wrong. Btw you’re the Vietnamese trans princess right? I missed your posts!!!

[Suriyanakhon]

> sees that we're going to have a Manchu inspired civilization
> excited because now this means more Authors in Asia besides me and Mao Jr.
> rereads app and realizes she'll be in North America

Sad peacock noises.

MAO JR!!! XD - you’re not wrong. Btw you’re the Vietnamese trans princess right? I missed your posts!!!

No, I'm not her.

It's a shame she's not back because another trans Author in Asia would be blessed.

[Joohan]

MAO JR!!! XD - you’re not wrong. Btw you’re the Vietnamese trans princess right? I missed your posts!!!

No, I'm not her.

It's a shame she's not back because another trans Author in Asia would be blessed.

Can I please get some props on figuring out that you were Hana based off of your Author app alone?

The Asian and Buddhist thing might have been just a coincidence, but my gaydar went off when I saw that you picked out girl in red as your theme song, and that couldn't have been coincidence.

I should be a detective.

[Ralnis]

Fun info is that El Paso is one of the very few places with tin sources. Not a lot can be pulled out buy you will be the only bronze civ in America.