New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[Existentialcrisis]

may i ask a question of the osmosis of products and items,
how could you think a product reasonably travel? there have been stuff like chinese pottery and ceramics found in medieval kilwan sites as a example, or arabic herbs and recipe books in india and burma. How far do you think a decorative item could spread among the western mediterainian as a ormanent.

[UniversalCommons]

I am assuming they are prisoners in work crews. Some of them meet other prisoners in work crews and talk to them. A few of them escape who have backgrounds that allow them to do this. Several of them are Habiru, outcasts and ex-slaves. One has experience in escaping from slavery, he has escaped from being a slave a few times. Another has experience with skulduggery, breaking into places. He gets ahold of gardening tools which he uses to break open his shackles and escape with a few of his compatriots. They live by robbing and living off the land. Eventually, they get ahold of the blessing and start and robbing and stealing from the dead. A small group initially. You have ex-slave, breaking and entering man, local boy scout who can live off the land, low level hunter warrior. They leave the tools hidden in a place where they can be used by others. They make it to round two, with a few more escapees, then the tools are found.

Yeah, foreign warriors who the Eyes are actively interrogating go in stockades, not work crews. Though that is a fun narrative.

Most stockades are made of wood. The walls are twelve feet high in most stockades. People can climb over them, especially trained warriors. With the right distraction, a large fire or something similar, wood burns. Also a way to get the door open in the huts in a medieval stockade, people would escape. If some of them can get the locks open late at night when people are supposed to be sleeping, then they can get out. A large fire, broken locks possibly by a few very large strong men who partook in strength training in the League Style or someone with nimble fingers and a pointy object. You have many people in this camp from the Dacian Campaigns, Varna, and other places possible. Enough where not all the people can be rounded up quickly. If 40 or 50 men get out a few would get over the walls.

I don't think there has ever been a prison escape.

[G-Tech Corporation]

may i ask a question of the osmosis of products and items,
how could you think a product reasonably travel? there have been stuff like chinese pottery and ceramics found in medieval kilwan sites as a example, or arabic herbs and recipe books in india and burma. How far do you think a decorative item could spread among the western mediterainian as a ormanent.

You’ll certainly have a variety of trade goods, like tin ingots, pottery, woven cloth, lapis lazuli, amber, and salt in your neck of the woods. More complex items, probably not, since you’re so far away from other states in Europe.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Yeah, foreign warriors who the Eyes are actively interrogating go in stockades, not work crews. Though that is a fun narrative.

Most stockades are made of wood. The walls are twelve feet high in most stockades. People can climb over them, especially trained warriors. With the right distraction, a large fire or something similar, wood burns. Also a way to get the door open in the huts in a medieval stockade, people would escape. If some of them can get the locks open late at night when people are supposed to be sleeping, then they can get out. A large fire, broken locks possibly by a few very large strong men who partook in strength training in the League Style or someone with nimble fingers and a pointy object. You have many people in this camp from the Dacian Campaigns, Varna, and other places possible. Enough where not all the people can be rounded up quickly. If 40 or 50 men get out a few would get over the walls.

I don't think there has ever been a prison escape.

I can see we have to define terms - by stockade, I mean a conventional prison cell. Certainly capable of being broken or raided by an external force, aye, but sturdy enough of her own accord. There shouldn’t be any people from Dacia there, given the primary cities of the region are inland, and I don’t recall arresting any other Varnans under the table.

Certainly there has never been a prison escape - but neither have there been people trained to escape prisons.

[Existentialcrisis]

thank you g corperation, i myself was thinking, lets say i made a product, that was small compact and easily traversible item, that is decorative, how far do you think it could travel, the neighbouring tribes, the country, western europe if i could make them reliable enough and quick enough

[G-Tech Corporation]

thank you g corperation, i myself was thinking, lets say i made a product, that was small compact and easily traversible item, that is decorative, how far do you think it could travel, the neighbouring tribes, the country, western europe if i could make them reliable enough and quick enough

Certainly. It’ll take a reasonably large amount of production, and a valuable item to get traded far through chains of exchange - but such networks are theoretically infinite with enough demand and production and time.

[UniversalCommons]

Most stockades are made of wood. The walls are twelve feet high in most stockades. People can climb over them, especially trained warriors. With the right distraction, a large fire or something similar, wood burns. Also a way to get the door open in the huts in a medieval stockade, people would escape. If some of them can get the locks open late at night when people are supposed to be sleeping, then they can get out. A large fire, broken locks possibly by a few very large strong men who partook in strength training in the League Style or someone with nimble fingers and a pointy object. You have many people in this camp from the Dacian Campaigns, Varna, and other places possible. Enough where not all the people can be rounded up quickly. If 40 or 50 men get out a few would get over the walls.

I don't think there has ever been a prison escape.

I can see we have to define terms - by stockade, I mean a conventional prison cell. Certainly capable of being broken or raided by an external force, aye, but sturdy enough of her own accord. There shouldn’t be any people from Dacia there, given the primary cities of the region are inland, and I don’t recall arresting any other Varnans under the table.

Certainly there has never been a prison escape - but neither have there been people trained to escape prisons.

I seriously doubt there would be a conventional prison cell in this time period. That is a very complex undertaking. The cost of a modern prison cell is incredibly high. It requires a variety of engineering and other skills which are quite specialized. Maybe there might be a 17th century stockade with wooden walls and simple prison cells makes sense basically stone walls and a window with bars, a fairly simple lock which could be broken open by a strong enough man-- skeleton key or opened by someone with enough skill.

[Arlye Austros]

Will do a fast-forward for Lukas today. Something between 5 and 7 years.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I can see we have to define terms - by stockade, I mean a conventional prison cell. Certainly capable of being broken or raided by an external force, aye, but sturdy enough of her own accord. There shouldn’t be any people from Dacia there, given the primary cities of the region are inland, and I don’t recall arresting any other Varnans under the table.

Certainly there has never been a prison escape - but neither have there been people trained to escape prisons.

I seriously doubt there would be a conventional prison cell in this time period. That is a very complex undertaking. The cost of a modern prison cell is incredibly high. It requires a variety of engineering and other skills which are quite specialized. Maybe there might be a 17th century stockade with wooden walls and simple prison cells makes sense basically stone walls and a window with bars, a fairly simple lock which could be broken open by a strong enough man-- skeleton key or opened by someone with enough skill.

No no, not a modern prison cell. Just a stone blockhouse, yeah.

If you think wrestling training makes a man capable of breaking an iron lock with his bare hands without specialized training, I’m skeptical. Ditto that men seized sneaking into a city to engage in irregular warfare carry skeleton keys, or even that the League possesses skeleton keys to rare Imperial prisons.

[Existentialcrisis]

Wait seeing a post above, on the tenth are we supposed to just continue from five years later... Or are we able to write from 5 later now

[G-Tech Corporation]

Wait seeing a post above, on the tenth are we supposed to just continue from five years later... Or are we able to write from 5 later now

The fifteenth, actually. And yeah, please do wait for that date - it’ll keep the IC dates consistent.

[UniversalCommons]

I seriously doubt there would be a conventional prison cell in this time period. That is a very complex undertaking. The cost of a modern prison cell is incredibly high. It requires a variety of engineering and other skills which are quite specialized. Maybe there might be a 17th century stockade with wooden walls and simple prison cells makes sense basically stone walls and a window with bars, a fairly simple lock which could be broken open by a strong enough man-- skeleton key or opened by someone with enough skill.

No no, not a modern prison cell. Just a stone blockhouse, yeah.

If you think wrestling training makes a man capable of breaking an iron lock with his bare hands without specialized training, I’m skeptical. Ditto that men seized sneaking into a city to engage in irregular warfare carry skeleton keys, or even that the League possesses skeleton keys to rare Imperial prisons.

We have weight training for heavy infantry. I am not sure that we would have many of them here, but it would be men who can handle the two handed iron bat, the long spear etc. This would not be for wrestling. It would be for killing horses in battle, breaking shield walls, running half a mile in armor.

[G-Tech Corporation]

No no, not a modern prison cell. Just a stone blockhouse, yeah.

If you think wrestling training makes a man capable of breaking an iron lock with his bare hands without specialized training, I’m skeptical. Ditto that men seized sneaking into a city to engage in irregular warfare carry skeleton keys, or even that the League possesses skeleton keys to rare Imperial prisons.

We have weight training for heavy infantry. I am not sure that we would have many of them here, but it would be men who can handle the two handed iron bat, the long spear etc. This would not be for wrestling. It would be for killing horses in battle, breaking shield walls, running half a mile in armor.

Tell you what - if you can find an account of non-hero Greek Hoplites or the like breaking locks with their bare hands, I’ll let two or three of the captives break out of their cells. Otherwise, we’ll just assume even intense military training doesn’t enable men to snap iron with their bare hands.

[Ralnis]

We have weight training for heavy infantry. I am not sure that we would have many of them here, but it would be men who can handle the two handed iron bat, the long spear etc. This would not be for wrestling. It would be for killing horses in battle, breaking shield walls, running half a mile in armor.

Tell you what - if you can find an account of non-hero Greek Hoplites or the like breaking locks with their bare hands, I’ll let two or three of the captives break out of their cells. Otherwise, we’ll just assume even intense military training doesn’t enable men to snap iron with their bare hands.

I mean they were trained by Sumerian super men. Who are immune to the same diseased they unleashed on the world.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Tell you what - if you can find an account of non-hero Greek Hoplites or the like breaking locks with their bare hands, I’ll let two or three of the captives break out of their cells. Otherwise, we’ll just assume even intense military training doesn’t enable men to snap iron with their bare hands.

I mean they were trained by Sumerian super men. Who are immune to the same diseased they unleashed on the world.

Actually, been thinking about that. Luther’s death toll might actually begin starkly increasing after the timeskip.

[Ralnis]

I mean they were trained by Sumerian super men. Who are immune to the same diseased they unleashed on the world.

Actually, been thinking about that. Luther’s death toll might actually begin starkly increasing after the timeskip.

Well that would make more sense as another reason why he left. Believing himself to be a terrible person who is trying to find redemption or to be killed for his sins.

[UniversalCommons]

I know, a few pieces of metal get in the hands of the prisoners. One of them figures out how to open the locks at night. They open a few of the cells. One of the prisoners has a terrible fit and lures the guard to the end of the hallway. The prisoners have pulled rocks and bricks out of the walls. They assault and overpower the guard taking his keys and weapons. Two of them die horribly from sword wounds. They manage to wait for the gatehouse door which only opens in the morning from the outside. When it opens, they rush the guards overpowering them with numbers. They have opened all of the doors in the hallway and there is a mob.They try and get outside but end up in a fight which is hopeless. A few of them are cowards and run making it over the fence. The other prisoners die or are captured.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I know, a few pieces of metal get in the hands of the prisoners. One of them figures out how to open the locks at night. They open a few of the cells. One of the prisoners has a terrible fit and lures the guard to the end of the hallway. The prisoners have pulled rocks and bricks out of the walls. They assault and overpower the guard taking his keys and weapons. Two of them die horribly from sword wounds. They manage to wait for the gatehouse door which only opens in the morning from the outside. When it opens, they rush the guards overpowering them with numbers. They have opened all of the doors in the hallway and there is a mob.They try and get outside but end up in a fight which is hopeless. A few of them are cowards and run making it over the fence. The other prisoners die or are captured.

No offense Commons, but given the number of infiltrate-y things I’m already letting you do for the sake of story, I don’t see any need to let twenty generic prisoners implausibly escape via mysteriously getting their hands on pieces of metal and improvising a lockpick from first principles. They’ll come up later if you really want me to write a story about them, but I was just planning to interrogate them and have them ransomed back to the League eventually; that’s what the Imperium does with most captives who aren’t ultimately executed.

[UniversalCommons]

I know, a few pieces of metal get in the hands of the prisoners. One of them figures out how to open the locks at night. They open a few of the cells. One of the prisoners has a terrible fit and lures the guard to the end of the hallway. The prisoners have pulled rocks and bricks out of the walls. They assault and overpower the guard taking his keys and weapons. Two of them die horribly from sword wounds. They manage to wait for the gatehouse door which only opens in the morning from the outside. When it opens, they rush the guards overpowering them with numbers. They have opened all of the doors in the hallway and there is a mob.They try and get outside but end up in a fight which is hopeless. A few of them are cowards and run making it over the fence. The other prisoners die or are captured.

No offense Commons, but given the number of infiltrate-y things I’m already letting you do for the sake of story, I don’t see any need to let twenty generic prisoners implausibly escape via mysteriously getting their hands on pieces of metal and improvising a lockpick from first principles. They’ll come up later if you really want me to write a story about them, but I was just planning to interrogate them and have them ransomed back to the League eventually; that’s what the Imperium does with most captives who aren’t ultimately executed.

That is fine. I just wanted to write a little story about an escape.

[Orostan]

1. The first boiler I made did not use cast iron and was made of bricks and clay. It exploded for obvious reasons. I think G-Tech has only questioned my ability to have good enough smiths to make weapons at one point - and we got over that by agreeing the average Chinese smith was not very good but good enough to make a sharp halberd head of good enough quality to not break so quickly I believe.

Actually what we agreed was that the only way China could supply her armies, given Aaron's dramatically split priorities when it comes to training and the unforgiving nature of cast iron, was training those smiths so poorly that those halberd heads were shoddy enough that breaking quickly was exactly the problem - you said you would just have Chinese smiths turn out even more volume of halberd heads, and that soldiers would go to battle with multiple heads ready to be switched out when the first one broke, or the second.

I'd also just clarify that your problem isn't holding pressure - any sufficiently fat slab of iron of any grade will be up to that task. Your problem is generating pressure in the first place. China, I assume, lacks the chemical industry to produce airtight seals, meaning you can run an iron container boiling water as long as you want, and you'll only generate atmospheric levels of motive force.

Fine, we agree on the iron thing. However there is absolutely no reason for me to be lacking in airtight seals considering I have birch tar at minimum.

I have written in great detail about this and what the problems with my current boilers are - sealant is not one of them and wouldn't be one of them.

1. Alright, fair enough. Could we consider that maybe 40% of China is Agrarian, and that along the yellow river and other major rivers that this is as high as 60%?

Probably still too high, I'm afraid. Think of it this way - how far is a Neolithic hunter-gatherer prepared to dig an irrigation ditch before he gives up in disgust and returns to his comparably easy life of hunting and living off of the land? One kilometer? Five? Basically anywhere more than that distance away from a major, consistent, water source will still be non-agrarian, since agrarianism isn't a viable option for them. I'm not personally prepared to take the time to calculate necessary flow rates of riparian watersheds to enable paddy irrigation, or millet agriculture, but I'm willing to bet significantly less than 40% of China is within a kilometer or two of irrigation-capable water sources.

3. Fair enough. However, the type of irrigation that is now being introduced only is comparable to the irrigation that exists in the Liangzhu culture which is part of China now anyways. At least along the yellow river where better quality tools and more fertile land is I think it is reasonable to say that agriculture is more dependable than nomadic living. The farther someone is from a Chinese city the more likely they are using stone tools and the less likely agriculture is to be superior to hunting and gathering.

Quite right, quite right. I'd absolutely agree with that assessment - but what percentage of China's land area is now directly adjacent to the Yangtze?

4. I'm not "asking" tribes to do anything. They either agree to this system that benefits everyone as much as possible or they get out. Property isn't just given to everyone - the commons always have to be regulated by some authority. In China's case this is the provincial and central government.

Sure - but you lure them in with tools, and then kick them out if they won't work as hard as you want. Is every tribe which won't agree to central control forcibly disarmed and stripped of their material goods? How was such a system started? That's a recipe for endless low level warfare against military bodies which aren't significantly weaker than China's conscripts, and it won't take more than a few tribes getting butchered for not bowing to Chinese demands before other tribes look at the Chinese offer with significant caution.

1. China is covered in rivers, it is absolutely not difficult to say that most of the northern plain at least would not be within a few kilometers of a good water source. Also, nomadic tribes who find their land occupied by the Chinese could basically become seasonal labor. They could dig irrigation ditches in the south one season and dig iron in the north next season - they’d get tools that make their lives easier and probably voluntarily do this. Hunting and gathering isn’t that great either especially when you have many mouths to feed.

2. Not that much, but rivers are everywhere. I don’t need massive rivers to irrigate every rice paddy.

3. They’d be kicked out if they try to scam the state - there is no “not working as hard as you want”. Most of the time the state will deal with a nomadic tribe that only wants to live in China for so long by either trading with them as they would with an external entity. Tribes aren’t “disarmed” or “stripped” of anything most of the time even if they’re settling on Chinese territory permanently.

[Speyland]

I'll probably list them then. Is that good for you?

When you say you’d probably list them after I mention that a few classes isn’t normally enough to qualify, I get confused

Not to be lazy about it, but I can't seem to develop some useful skills for Shingo. And since he hasn't graduated from senior high school yet, how about he starts with no useful skills at all. Will you be okay with that?

[Orostan]

Those are the spiny things right? Well, good enough since it's already generating energy, but that energy is wasted on spinning, now, if I were to say, only place one tube, connect it to something else, say, a paddle, now, that would be something...

Luther has the blueprints for a lot of industrial tech that he either funded or copied from the Nestosian Scholar Cults within Ur. So while you got the aeropile and the paddle, Luther, with time and resources, could have the basics of a Watt Steam Engine or a Newcomen. He would have a better base to work with as well since China has been throwing a lot of resources to industrial tech despite the skill of their educated masses. So he could actually make a cast iron engine that would be better than what the Chinese have, hopefully by then.
That also goes for a lot of industrial and conceptional technology that Luther wanted to implement yet couldn't due to Sumeria and her Wars. So unfortunately there is no Sumerian steel except the one he has, no massive steam engines except the water-powered blast furnaces, and no steam ships. But in Asia would be a different story.

He also has the conceptional idea for gunpowder based on the Kraken's formula. It is known as the Kraken Formula and Luther only knows it as proto-proto gunpowder on the same level of Sumerian incendiaries so that would also needed to be researched.

I doubt you have plans for an actual steam locomotive like I have.

[Ralnis]

Luther has the blueprints for a lot of industrial tech that he either funded or copied from the Nestosian Scholar Cults within Ur. So while you got the aeropile and the paddle, Luther, with time and resources, could have the basics of a Watt Steam Engine or a Newcomen. He would have a better base to work with as well since China has been throwing a lot of resources to industrial tech despite the skill of their educated masses. So he could actually make a cast iron engine that would be better than what the Chinese have, hopefully by then.
That also goes for a lot of industrial and conceptional technology that Luther wanted to implement yet couldn't due to Sumeria and her Wars. So unfortunately there is no Sumerian steel except the one he has, no massive steam engines except the water-powered blast furnaces, and no steam ships. But in Asia would be a different story.

He also has the conceptional idea for gunpowder based on the Kraken's formula. It is known as the Kraken Formula and Luther only knows it as proto-proto gunpowder on the same level of Sumerian incendiaries so that would also needed to be researched.

I doubt you have plans for an actual steam locomotive like I have.

My question is why would you need any steam power, let alone gunpowder when you have no body to compete against you that should make the expense worth it.

[Orostan]

I doubt you have plans for an actual steam locomotive like I have.

My question is why would you need any steam power, let alone gunpowder when you have no body to compete against you that should make the expense worth it.

China is severely underpopulated. I need labor to be as productive as possible, I also want to start the industrial revolution simply because if I can do it I get to skip the worst parts of human history.

[Ralnis]

My question is why would you need any steam power, let alone gunpowder when you have no body to compete against you that should make the expense worth it.

China is severely underpopulated. I need labor to be as productive as possible, I also want to start the industrial revolution simply because if I can do it I get to skip the worst parts of human history.

By how much? Because China still has more manpower than about two or three countries put together.