New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[G-Tech Corporation]

Also, the argument about ambition is a straw man argument. It goes because the man is ambitious he will follow the Imperium. The Imperium has made a better offer than the Nestos League. This was done twice. It is an assumption. It is used to change a persons opinion over to the Imperium. We have a better offer. In one instance, with the Imperium meeting with Troa for one hour. It does not remotely hold water. I read the offer and it did not convince me. I don't think it would stick. I could go back to Dotos and say it was very similar. In both cases ambition outweighs reason and breaks Rule 4. You asked me to not make appeals to emotion. This is an emotion, greed and ambition.

I'll happily quibble on the difference between ambition and blind lashing out as reasons for action. You were trying to use "behaving irrationally" as the reason behind guessing the Imperium's intentions in Odessos, which was based in a metacognition of those OOC reasons. I'm using ambition as a part of the puzzle of character motivations. The League is ruled by men of science and vaguely democratic institutions - does a man wishing for autocratic rule and the aggrandizement of his lineage and personal power find more within the bounds of the League for his ambitions, or does he see the military might and backing of the Imperium as a path to achieve his goals?

If you want to send emissaries to either Troy or Odessos absolving them of their obligations to the League and severing ties with their neighbors with an explicit blessing for them to expand into lands that were previously protected by the League, I'll happily say that you have the superior offer - after all, these are people who are more culturally similar to the League.

Specific instances are magnified to apply to everything across the board. If I say one thing once it gets magnified to hundreds of times. There is a pattern making specific instances into general or broad statements. This is not logical. It is entertaining in its execution. It is also bad logic and unreasonable.

This seems to be happening a tremendous amount in Varna. Everyone hates the League, they are hated. It goes from a few people to the entire population. This is a generalization fallacy. The conspirators may hate us, but the assertion that everyone else does is not logical and there are not enough examples for this to be true. Please be more specific. Things have become too generalized.

I don't think I've ever argued that everyone in Varna hates the League, not even implicitly. I'd assume, as is true in almost every population of humanity, that the broad majority of individuals could care less who rules them - they just want full bellies, safe homes, and a means of earning their keep. The motivations of Hristo and the conspirators, and Dotos, and even the Varna First men aiding the Imperium, are far more complex than mere hatred of the League. Some desire isolationism, a return to the old ways before ever Scholars came from the south to upend their lives. Some chafe under the restrictions in warfare which the League imposed. Others resent her taxes, being forced to send gold and silver to lesser settlements instead of keeping it for themselves. Others still disapprove of the wasted efforts of the Scholars, seeing their coffers emptied to chase wild fantasies and wasted on failed experiments instead of building a better Odessos. Maybe men resent the mercenaries the League has used to keep the peace - for mercenaries are wont to excess and outraging of populaces, especially when not given opportunities to loot and plunder. Some might want greatness for Odessos herself, to not be overshadowed by Oak and Victor Spear, and view this as a chance to stand on their own.

And sure, some might genuinely hate the League - for letting their children die of plague, for being unable for all their vaunted learning and expensive experiments to save loved ones from the ultimate embrace of death.

But this is far from the only reason.

An example of this is stating that the Council hates us and would not help us. This is a good example of Rule 4 applied to you. I have stated that the council opposes us. I have never once stated that they hate us. This is purely your interpretation. It assumes there is a general consensus that everyone on the counsel hates us 100%. This is not a totalitarian state, it means that a larger percentage of people dislikes us, than like us 60-40, or 70-30 for example.

Well, no. I'm assuming the Council as it stands now is not on the side of the League, yes, but that's after some events which have rather significantly skewed it - one of which you introduced yourself.

Let's say, for instance, that three of twelve of the Council's members were originally conspirators. Three others are fairly neutral, but want an end to this plague. Three are isolationists, and three are League diehards. First, we see those of the Council who wish to take the Blessing allowed to do so - suppose the conspirators take the Blessing, and two of the three neutral members, as they fear the plague most. Then a very infectious man is allowed to address the council, exposing them all to the plague.

An isolationist, a neutral, and diehard perish of plague. The remaining two isolationists and two diehards are sent beyond the city, as they could be infectious and must quarantine. Who remains on the Council to make decisions for the city?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh, and one minor thing Commons - but the men sent north to Constanta were sent as prisoners, not just released into the city, hah. A place where they can be more easily held and questioned, away from the tinderbox and fragile city of Odessos.

[UniversalCommons]

Also, the argument about ambition is a straw man argument. It goes because the man is ambitious he will follow the Imperium. The Imperium has made a better offer than the Nestos League. This was done twice. It is an assumption. It is used to change a persons opinion over to the Imperium. We have a better offer. In one instance, with the Imperium meeting with Troa for one hour. It does not remotely hold water. I read the offer and it did not convince me. I don't think it would stick. I could go back to Dotos and say it was very similar. In both cases ambition outweighs reason and breaks Rule 4. You asked me to not make appeals to emotion. This is an emotion, greed and ambition.

I'll happily quibble on the difference between ambition and blind lashing out as reasons for action. You were trying to use "behaving irrationally" as the reason behind guessing the Imperium's intentions in Odessos, which was based in a metacognition of those OOC reasons. I'm using ambition as a part of the puzzle of character motivations. The League is ruled by men of science and vaguely democratic institutions - does a man wishing for autocratic rule and the aggrandizement of his lineage and personal power find more within the bounds of the League for his ambitions, or does he see the military might and backing of the Imperium as a path to achieve his goals?

If you want to send emissaries to either Troy or Odessos absolving them of their obligations to the League and severing ties with their neighbors with an explicit blessing for them to expand into lands that were previously protected by the League, I'll happily say that you have the superior offer - after all, these are people who are more culturally similar to the League.

Specific instances are magnified to apply to everything across the board. If I say one thing once it gets magnified to hundreds of times. There is a pattern making specific instances into general or broad statements. This is not logical. It is entertaining in its execution. It is also bad logic and unreasonable.

This seems to be happening a tremendous amount in Varna. Everyone hates the League, they are hated. It goes from a few people to the entire population. This is a generalization fallacy. The conspirators may hate us, but the assertion that everyone else does is not logical and there are not enough examples for this to be true. Please be more specific. Things have become too generalized.

I don't think I've ever argued that everyone in Varna hates the League, not even implicitly. I'd assume, as is true in almost every population of humanity, that the broad majority of individuals could care less who rules them - they just want full bellies, safe homes, and a means of earning their keep. The motivations of Hristo and the conspirators, and Dotos, and even the Varna First men aiding the Imperium, are far more complex than mere hatred of the League. Some desire isolationism, a return to the old ways before ever Scholars came from the south to upend their lives. Some chafe under the restrictions in warfare which the League imposed. Others resent her taxes, being forced to send gold and silver to lesser settlements instead of keeping it for themselves. Others still disapprove of the wasted efforts of the Scholars, seeing their coffers emptied to chase wild fantasies and wasted on failed experiments instead of building a better Odessos. Maybe men resent the mercenaries the League has used to keep the peace - for mercenaries are wont to excess and outraging of populaces, especially when not given opportunities to loot and plunder. Some might want greatness for Odessos herself, to not be overshadowed by Oak and Victor Spear, and view this as a chance to stand on their own.

And sure, some might genuinely hate the League - for letting their children die of plague, for being unable for all their vaunted learning and expensive experiments to save loved ones from the ultimate embrace of death.

But this is far from the only reason.

An example of this is stating that the Council hates us and would not help us. This is a good example of Rule 4 applied to you. I have stated that the council opposes us. I have never once stated that they hate us. This is purely your interpretation. It assumes there is a general consensus that everyone on the counsel hates us 100%. This is not a totalitarian state, it means that a larger percentage of people dislikes us, than like us 60-40, or 70-30 for example.

Well, no. I'm assuming the Council as it stands now is not on the side of the League, yes, but that's after some events which have rather significantly skewed it - one of which you introduced yourself.

Let's say, for instance, that three of twelve of the Council's members were originally conspirators. Three others are fairly neutral, but want an end to this plague. Three are isolationists, and three are League diehards. First, we see those of the Council who wish to take the Blessing allowed to do so - suppose the conspirators take the Blessing, and two of the three neutral members, as they fear the plague most. Then a very infectious man is allowed to address the council, exposing them all to the plague.

An isolationist, a neutral, and diehard perish of plague. The remaining two isolationists and two diehards are sent beyond the city, as they could be infectious and must quarantine. Who remains on the Council to make decisions for the city?

Actually what I want to do is have the coalition of many cities which comprises Troy turn on their king, invite in the blessing and have a limited dialogue with the Imperium. They will find themselves in a strange diplomatic situation with emissaries from the League.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Actually what I want to do is have the coalition of many cities which comprises Troy turn on their king, invite in the blessing and have a limited dialogue with the Imperium. They will find themselves in a strange diplomatic situation with emissaries from the League.

That would be interesting. I wasn't aware Troy ruled any further than, well, Troy, given the timeframe.

[G-Tech Corporation]

1. Alright, fair enough. Could we consider that maybe 40% of China is Agrarian, and that along the yellow river and other major rivers that this is as high as 60%?

Probably still too high, I'm afraid. Think of it this way - how far is a Neolithic hunter-gatherer prepared to dig an irrigation ditch before he gives up in disgust and returns to his comparably easy life of hunting and living off of the land? One kilometer? Five? Basically anywhere more than that distance away from a major, consistent, water source will still be non-agrarian, since agrarianism isn't a viable option for them. I'm not personally prepared to take the time to calculate necessary flow rates of riparian watersheds to enable paddy irrigation, or millet agriculture, but I'm willing to bet significantly less than 40% of China is within a kilometer or two of irrigation-capable water sources.

3. Fair enough. However, the type of irrigation that is now being introduced only is comparable to the irrigation that exists in the Liangzhu culture which is part of China now anyways. At least along the yellow river where better quality tools and more fertile land is I think it is reasonable to say that agriculture is more dependable than nomadic living. The farther someone is from a Chinese city the more likely they are using stone tools and the less likely agriculture is to be superior to hunting and gathering.

Quite right, quite right. I'd absolutely agree with that assessment - but what percentage of China's land area is now directly adjacent to the Yangtze?

4. I'm not "asking" tribes to do anything. They either agree to this system that benefits everyone as much as possible or they get out. Property isn't just given to everyone - the commons always have to be regulated by some authority. In China's case this is the provincial and central government.

Sure - but you lure them in with tools, and then kick them out if they won't work as hard as you want. Is every tribe which won't agree to central control forcibly disarmed and stripped of their material goods? How was such a system started? That's a recipe for endless low level warfare against military bodies which aren't significantly weaker than China's conscripts, and it won't take more than a few tribes getting butchered for not bowing to Chinese demands before other tribes look at the Chinese offer with significant caution.

[Endem]

So, unrelated question, but do I remember correctly that the Legue had knowledge of how to make gunpowder and other cool fancy tech stuff?

[G-Tech Corporation]

So, unrelated question, but do I remember correctly that the Legue had knowledge of how to make gunpowder and other cool fancy tech stuff?

The Kraken had some basic incendiaries using sulfur which the League has gained vague fragments of.

[Endem]

So, unrelated question, but do I remember correctly that the Legue had knowledge of how to make gunpowder and other cool fancy tech stuff?

The Kraken had some basic incendiaries using sulfur which the League has gained vague fragments of.

They at very least also have knowledge of advanced beekeeping and how to make acids from the now saddle defunct Gdansk, but anyway, that's a bummer if they can't make gunpowder. After timeskip I was planning on sending a diplomatic mission to the league with a sizeable force for protection, and was planning a really nice deal ( send some troops to help ) for the knowledge of every step of making gunpowder, and in case the League falls, a asylum for scholars and Viktor.

[G-Tech Corporation]

The Kraken had some basic incendiaries using sulfur which the League has gained vague fragments of.

They at very least also have knowledge of advanced beekeeping and how to make acids from the now saddle defunct Gdansk, but anyway, that's a bummer if they can't make gunpowder. After timeskip I was planning on sending a diplomatic mission to the league with a sizeable force for protection, and was planning a really nice deal ( send some troops to help ) for the knowledge of every step of making gunpowder, and in case the League falls, a asylum for scholars and Viktor.

Oh I wouldn’t worry for the League. I don’t think they have any enemies who possess either the desire or ability to conquer them, and a loss of some territories shouldn’t provoke a full-scale collapse.

But they have plenty of other valuable knowledge aside from gunpowder.

[Endem]

They at very least also have knowledge of advanced beekeeping and how to make acids from the now saddle defunct Gdansk, but anyway, that's a bummer if they can't make gunpowder. After timeskip I was planning on sending a diplomatic mission to the league with a sizeable force for protection, and was planning a really nice deal ( send some troops to help ) for the knowledge of every step of making gunpowder, and in case the League falls, a asylum for scholars and Viktor.

Oh I wouldn’t worry for the League. I don’t think they have any enemies who possess either the desire or ability to conquer them, and a loss of some territories shouldn’t provoke a full-scale collapse.

But they have plenty of other valuable knowledge aside from gunpowder.

Oh yes, but since I am going to get boilers from the collapsing Sumeria, I was hoping that would be a stepping stone towards oil fueled engines because I know how those works, and if the League would have gunpowder I had the dream of self propelled artillery, since I also know how guns and bullets work and I could probably figure out how to make cannons.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh I wouldn’t worry for the League. I don’t think they have any enemies who possess either the desire or ability to conquer them, and a loss of some territories shouldn’t provoke a full-scale collapse.

But they have plenty of other valuable knowledge aside from gunpowder.

Oh yes, but since I am going to get boilers from the collapsing Sumeria, I was hoping that would be a stepping stone towards oil fueled engines because I know how those works, and if the League would have gunpowder I had the dream of self propelled artillery, since I also know how guns and bullets work and I could probably figure out how to make cannons.

Hmm, I think the Sumerians only have aeolipiles, which are interesting conceptually, but you’ll struggle to turn into motive force.

[Endem]

Oh yes, but since I am going to get boilers from the collapsing Sumeria, I was hoping that would be a stepping stone towards oil fueled engines because I know how those works, and if the League would have gunpowder I had the dream of self propelled artillery, since I also know how guns and bullets work and I could probably figure out how to make cannons.

Hmm, I think the Sumerians only have aeolipiles, which are interesting conceptually, but you’ll struggle to turn into motive force.

Those are the spiny things right? Well, good enough since it's already generating energy, but that energy is wasted on spinning, now, if I were to say, only place one tube, connect it to something else, say, a paddle, now, that would be something...

[UniversalCommons]

Oh, and one minor thing Commons - but the men sent north to Constanta were sent as prisoners, not just released into the city, hah. A place where they can be more easily held and questioned, away from the tinderbox and fragile city of Odessos.

I am assuming they are prisoners in work crews. Some of them meet other prisoners in work crews and talk to them. A few of them escape who have backgrounds that allow them to do this. Several of them are Habiru, outcasts and ex-slaves. One has experience in escaping from slavery, he has escaped from being a slave a few times. Another has experience with skulduggery, breaking into places. He gets ahold of gardening tools which he uses to break open his shackles and escape with a few of his compatriots. They live by robbing and living off the land. Eventually, they get ahold of the blessing and start and robbing and stealing from the dead. A small group initially. You have ex-slave, breaking and entering man, local boy scout who can live off the land, low level hunter warrior. They leave the tools hidden in a place where they can be used by others. They make it to round two, with a few more escapees, then the tools are found.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh, and one minor thing Commons - but the men sent north to Constanta were sent as prisoners, not just released into the city, hah. A place where they can be more easily held and questioned, away from the tinderbox and fragile city of Odessos.

I am assuming they are prisoners in work crews. Some of them meet other prisoners in work crews and talk to them. A few of them escape who have backgrounds that allow them to do this. Several of them are Habiru, outcasts and ex-slaves. One has experience in escaping from slavery, he has escaped from being a slave a few times. Another has experience with skulduggery, breaking into places. He gets ahold of gardening tools which he uses to break open his shackles and escape with a few of his compatriots. They live by robbing and living off the land. Eventually, they get ahold of the blessing and start and robbing and stealing from the dead. A small group initially. You have ex-slave, breaking and entering man, local boy scout who can live off the land, low level hunter warrior. They leave the tools hidden in a place where they can be used by others. They make it to round two, with a few more escapees, then the tools are found.

Yeah, foreign warriors who the Eyes are actively interrogating go in stockades, not work crews. Though that is a fun narrative.

[Endem]

Oh, and one minor thing Commons - but the men sent north to Constanta were sent as prisoners, not just released into the city, hah. A place where they can be more easily held and questioned, away from the tinderbox and fragile city of Odessos.

I am assuming they are prisoners in work crews. Some of them meet other prisoners in work crews and talk to them. A few of them escape who have backgrounds that allow them to do this. Several of them are Habiru, outcasts and ex-slaves. One has experience in escaping from slavery, he has escaped from being a slave a few times. Another has experience with skulduggery, breaking into places. He gets ahold of gardening tools which he uses to break open his shackles and escape with a few of his compatriots. They live by robbing and living off the land. Eventually, they get ahold of the blessing and start and robbing and stealing from the dead. A small group initially. You have ex-slave, breaking and entering man, local boy scout who can live off the land, low level hunter warrior. They leave the tools hidden in a place where they can be used by others. They make it to round two, with a few more escapees, then the tools are found.

I know this is untelated, but didn't you once tell me you knew how to make gunpowder, or at least the ingredients for it?

[Ralnis]

Hmm, I think the Sumerians only have aeolipiles, which are interesting conceptually, but you’ll struggle to turn into motive force.

Those are the spiny things right? Well, good enough since it's already generating energy, but that energy is wasted on spinning, now, if I were to say, only place one tube, connect it to something else, say, a paddle, now, that would be something...

Luther has the blueprints for a lot of industrial tech that he either funded or copied from the Nestosian Scholar Cults within Ur. So while you got the aeropile and the paddle, Luther, with time and resources, could have the basics of a Watt Steam Engine or a Newcomen. He would have a better base to work with as well since China has been throwing a lot of resources to industrial tech despite the skill of their educated masses. So he could actually make a cast iron engine that would be better than what the Chinese have, hopefully by then.

That also goes for a lot of industrial and conceptional technology that Luther wanted to implement yet couldn't due to Sumeria and her Wars. So unfortunately there is no Sumerian steel except the one he has, no massive steam engines except the water-powered blast furnaces, and no steam ships. But in Asia would be a different story.

He also has the conceptional idea for gunpowder based on the Kraken's formula. It is known as the Kraken Formula and Luther only knows it as proto-proto gunpowder on the same level of Sumerian incendiaries so that would also needed to be researched.

[Endem]

Those are the spiny things right? Well, good enough since it's already generating energy, but that energy is wasted on spinning, now, if I were to say, only place one tube, connect it to something else, say, a paddle, now, that would be something...

Luther has the blueprints for a lot of industrial tech that he either funded or copied from the Nestosian Scholar Cults within Ur. So while you got the aeropile and the paddle, Luther, with time and resources, could have the basics of a Watt Steam Engine or a Newcomen. He would have a better base to work with as well since China has been throwing a lot of resources to industrial tech despite the skill of their educated masses. So he could actually make a cast iron engine that would be better than what the Chinese have, hopefully by then.

That also goes for a lot of industrial and conceptional technology that Luther wanted to implement yet couldn't due to Sumeria and her Wars. So unfortunately there is no Sumerian steel except the one he has, no massive steam engines except the water-powered blast furnaces, and no steam ships. But in Asia would be a different story.

He also has the conceptional idea for gunpowder based on the Kraken's formula. It is known as the Kraken Formula and Luther only knows it as proto-proto gunpowder on the same level of Sumerian incendiaries so that would also needed to be researched.

Hey, it's not gonna be just the paddle and aeropile, well, it's gonna be that, but I'm gonna make it work, maybe eventually I'll figure out how to make a proper engine, or at least how to effectively extract oil to make a oil engine.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Luther has the blueprints for a lot of industrial tech that he either funded or copied from the Nestosian Scholar Cults within Ur. So while you got the aeropile and the paddle, Luther, with time and resources, could have the basics of a Watt Steam Engine or a Newcomen. He would have a better base to work with as well since China has been throwing a lot of resources to industrial tech despite the skill of their educated masses. So he could actually make a cast iron engine that would be better than what the Chinese have, hopefully by then.

That also goes for a lot of industrial and conceptional technology that Luther wanted to implement yet couldn't due to Sumeria and her Wars. So unfortunately there is no Sumerian steel except the one he has, no massive steam engines except the water-powered blast furnaces, and no steam ships. But in Asia would be a different story.

He also has the conceptional idea for gunpowder based on the Kraken's formula. It is known as the Kraken Formula and Luther only knows it as proto-proto gunpowder on the same level of Sumerian incendiaries so that would also needed to be researched.

Hey, it's not gonna be just the paddle and aeropile, well, it's gonna be that, but I'm gonna make it work, maybe eventually I'll figure out how to make a proper engine, or at least how to effectively extract oil to make a oil engine.

Ain't nothing preventing you just burning raw crude oil for fuel, really.

[Ralnis]

Hey, it's not gonna be just the paddle and aeropile, well, it's gonna be that, but I'm gonna make it work, maybe eventually I'll figure out how to make a proper engine, or at least how to effectively extract oil to make a oil engine.

Ain't nothing preventing you just burning raw crude oil for fuel, really.

True.

[Endem]

Hey, it's not gonna be just the paddle and aeropile, well, it's gonna be that, but I'm gonna make it work, maybe eventually I'll figure out how to make a proper engine, or at least how to effectively extract oil to make a oil engine.

Ain't nothing preventing you just burning raw crude oil for fuel, really.

Yeah, that's what I'm planning, I even know how pistons work so only I have two problems to solve, extraction of fuel, and transmission from engine onto the wheels.

[Ralnis]

Ain't nothing preventing you just burning raw crude oil for fuel, really.

Yeah, that's what I'm planning, I even know how pistons work so only I have two problems to solve, extraction of fuel, and transmission from engine onto the wheels.

Cool, while you do that I will be helping tribes become my puppets in my web of supervillainy.

[Endem]

Yeah, that's what I'm planning, I even know how pistons work so only I have two problems to solve, extraction of fuel, and transmission from engine onto the wheels.

Cool, while you do that I will be helping tribes become my puppets in my web of supervillainy.

Good luck, since we won't have conflicts over Sumeria maybe when globalization sets in we can become allies.

[Ralnis]

Cool, while you do that I will be helping tribes become my puppets in my web of supervillainy.

Good luck, since we won't have conflicts over Sumeria maybe when globalization sets in we can become allies.

Maybe, I would think he would be in a perpetual state of war and peace against Aaron until he either manages to kill me or he finally lets the war go against the Ten Thousand Swords.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ain't nothing preventing you just burning raw crude oil for fuel, really.

Yeah, that's what I'm planning, I even know how pistons work so only I have two problems to solve, extraction of fuel, and transmission from engine onto the wheels.

Mm well, keep in mind that achieving the machining tolerances to construct internal combustion pistons is going to be very difficult.

[Endem]

Yeah, that's what I'm planning, I even know how pistons work so only I have two problems to solve, extraction of fuel, and transmission from engine onto the wheels.

Mm well, keep in mind that achieving the machining tolerances to construct internal combustion pistons is going to be very difficult.

I'll manage, I somehow doubt first cars and engines also didn't suffer from that, and just a couple engines that can be put to use in farming, extraction of resources, manufacture and war will make a great difference.