New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[Speyland]

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Level of education ( specify degrees or note worthy classes ): Secondary education
Physique description: Besides going to a gym class at school before then, Shingo's body is in good shape, allowing him to run longer than an Olympics athlete. Otherwise, his physique is good.
Useful skills: Shingo is an excellent runner, having gone to a gym class at his school several times. In addition, he is partially skilled in combat as a result of him attending a kendo class. Having read Sun Tzu's The Art of War once, Shingo is a skilled tactician, and his intelligence of coming up with complex but understandable plans explain it all.

Most of your application is good, but I'd like some clarifications/expansions on these bits. Running longer than an Olympic athlete seems... implausible, and I wouldn't categorically say someone is a notable runner or combatant or tactician if the criterion are going to a class a few times, or a single time, or reading a single book.

So what do you want me to change then?

[Endem]

You watch for that, but how successful is it?

Reasonably successful I'd guess. Local Ministry branches are going to like to keep track of tribes - they are a good source of labor after all.

Any tribe that wants to trade with China will have to engage with the Ministry while those that don't can cross the border in a remote part of China and basically go unnoticed. Those guys are going to be fun for you to deal with!

So, um, if I may, it seems to me as if those tribes wouldn't trade and settle on the basis of wanting but rather as needing, since you know, China is the current technological powerhouse in the area. I mean, it's the same reason why medieval peasants would come to the cities ( funnily, the only reason those cities grew in population ), did the city offer safety and opportunity? Hell no, but life in one would still be better for such a peasant. I'd be willing to bet the moment the King in Rags offers a better deal, you're gonna start seeing tribes deserting China, I mean, at least their safety would not be threatened, and probably anything is better to the tribes that were sent to the gulag iron mine.

[Orostan]

Reasonably successful I'd guess. Local Ministry branches are going to like to keep track of tribes - they are a good source of labor after all.

Any tribe that wants to trade with China will have to engage with the Ministry while those that don't can cross the border in a remote part of China and basically go unnoticed. Those guys are going to be fun for you to deal with!

So, um, if I may, it seems to me as if those tribes wouldn't trade and settle on the basis of wanting but rather as needing, since you know, China is the current technological powerhouse in the area. I mean, it's the same reason why medieval peasants would come to the cities ( funnily, the only reason those cities grew in population ), did the city offer safety and opportunity? Hell no, but life in one would still be better for such a peasant. I'd be willing to bet the moment the King in Rags offers a better deal, you're gonna start seeing tribes deserting China, I mean, at least their safety would not be threatened, and probably anything is better to the tribes that were sent to the gulag iron mine.

How would he offer a better deal? China offers basically the best deal anyone can in its situation. The only way Luther could offer a better deal to tribes that want to trade is by stealing from most people and using what he gets that to reward tribes. He'd make enemies of most of society.

The only reason a tribe would ever be forced to work in an iron mine or anything like that is if they try and scam from China. Most of them would be encouraged to farm rice to allow Chinese people to work in iron mines and urban industries anyways. Most of them, especially the larger ones, are going to think China is being very reasonable with them. The small and diverse ones that move around more and that China has difficulties communicating with are the ones that will cause problems.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Most of your application is good, but I'd like some clarifications/expansions on these bits. Running longer than an Olympic athlete seems... implausible, and I wouldn't categorically say someone is a notable runner or combatant or tactician if the criterion are going to a class a few times, or a single time, or reading a single book.

So what do you want me to change then?

Well, a more realistic assessment of physical stamina would be a good start. I’d also just chop those skills - they’re fine to mention anecdotally in the IC, but not what we’re looking for in that section.

[Ralnis]

So, um, if I may, it seems to me as if those tribes wouldn't trade and settle on the basis of wanting but rather as needing, since you know, China is the current technological powerhouse in the area. I mean, it's the same reason why medieval peasants would come to the cities ( funnily, the only reason those cities grew in population ), did the city offer safety and opportunity? Hell no, but life in one would still be better for such a peasant. I'd be willing to bet the moment the King in Rags offers a better deal, you're gonna start seeing tribes deserting China, I mean, at least their safety would not be threatened, and probably anything is better to the tribes that were sent to the gulag iron mine.

How would he offer a better deal? China offers basically the best deal anyone can in its situation. The only way Luther could offer a better deal to tribes that want to trade is by stealing from most people and using what he gets that to reward tribes. He'd make enemies of most of society.

The only reason a tribe would ever be forced to work in an iron mine or anything like that is if they try and scam from China. Most of them would be encouraged to farm rice to allow Chinese people to work in iron mines and urban industries anyways. Most of them, especially the larger ones, are going to think China is being very reasonable with them. The small and diverse ones that move around more and that China has difficulties communicating with are the ones that will cause problems.

The Chinese are the only ones who can make the deal. Luther will take years but he will make an enemy with most of society, but there's also those who will join him in said society. Tribes, former rebels, ambitious people, people who want are greedy but there would see the King in Rags as an alternative that would be a growing corruption, but a tantalizing one compared to what the Emperor offers. He also offers knowledge and investments to those who prove themselves worth the loyalty and respect of it. The knowledge he has far surpasses that of the Chinese and that allow can be tantalizing to those who are truly loyal to the King.

But then again, it takes years and power building. Enough time for Aaron to learn and even capture Luther. However Luther is an expert so who knows.

[Orostan]

How would he offer a better deal? China offers basically the best deal anyone can in its situation. The only way Luther could offer a better deal to tribes that want to trade is by stealing from most people and using what he gets that to reward tribes. He'd make enemies of most of society.

The only reason a tribe would ever be forced to work in an iron mine or anything like that is if they try and scam from China. Most of them would be encouraged to farm rice to allow Chinese people to work in iron mines and urban industries anyways. Most of them, especially the larger ones, are going to think China is being very reasonable with them. The small and diverse ones that move around more and that China has difficulties communicating with are the ones that will cause problems.

The Chinese are the only ones who can make the deal. Luther will take years but he will make an enemy with most of society, but there's also those who will join him in said society. Tribes, former rebels, ambitious people, people who want are greedy but there would see the King in Rags as an alternative that would be a growing corruption, but a tantalizing one compared to what the Emperor offers. He also offers knowledge and investments to those who prove themselves worth the loyalty and respect of it. The knowledge he has far surpasses that of the Chinese and that allow can be tantalizing to those who are truly loyal to the King.

But then again, it takes years and power building. Enough time for Aaron to learn and even capture Luther. However Luther is an expert so who knows.

I'm very interested to see that - Luther could also put himself up as a sort of information broker and build his group by working with the Chinese state rather than against it. Who will tell the Chinese when a tribe or enemy empire plans to attack them? Who can replace unfriendly tribal leaders with more friendly men for China? Who can even find corruption (that isn't his own doing) for the government within China?

Luther can - even if he has his own ambitions.

[Speyland]

So what do you want me to change then?

Well, a more realistic assessment of physical stamina would be a good start. I’d also just chop those skills - they’re fine to mention anecdotally in the IC, but not what we’re looking for in that section.

Can you give me an example of some plausible skills?

[Ralnis]

The Chinese are the only ones who can make the deal. Luther will take years but he will make an enemy with most of society, but there's also those who will join him in said society. Tribes, former rebels, ambitious people, people who want are greedy but there would see the King in Rags as an alternative that would be a growing corruption, but a tantalizing one compared to what the Emperor offers. He also offers knowledge and investments to those who prove themselves worth the loyalty and respect of it. The knowledge he has far surpasses that of the Chinese and that allow can be tantalizing to those who are truly loyal to the King.

But then again, it takes years and power building. Enough time for Aaron to learn and even capture Luther. However Luther is an expert so who knows.

I'm very interested to see that - Luther could also put himself up as a sort of information broker and build his group by working with the Chinese state rather than against it. Who will tell the Chinese when a tribe or enemy empire plans to attack them? Who can replace unfriendly tribal leaders with more friendly men for China? Who can even find corruption (that isn't his own doing) for the government within China?

Luther can - even if he has his own ambitions.

Hmm, being a Shadow Broker is cool. Information broking is a solid currency to work with for a black market and one that makes him more powerful than a smuggling ring. One that would even have him as Chinese ally but one that could turn on them and be a dangerous war if they want to get rid of him. From there he can build his group based around smuggling and investments but information and favors would be fundamental.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Well, a more realistic assessment of physical stamina would be a good start. I’d also just chop those skills - they’re fine to mention anecdotally in the IC, but not what we’re looking for in that section.

Can you give me an example of some plausible skills?

Practicing fencing for a dozen years, or a degree in a field, for instance.

[Orostan]

I'm very interested to see that - Luther could also put himself up as a sort of information broker and build his group by working with the Chinese state rather than against it. Who will tell the Chinese when a tribe or enemy empire plans to attack them? Who can replace unfriendly tribal leaders with more friendly men for China? Who can even find corruption (that isn't his own doing) for the government within China?

Luther can - even if he has his own ambitions.

Hmm, being a Shadow Broker is cool. Information broking is a solid currency to work with for a black market and one that makes him more powerful than a smuggling ring. One that would even have him as Chinese ally but one that could turn on them and be a dangerous war if they want to get rid of him. From there he can build his group based around smuggling and investments but information and favors would be fundamental.

It is always good to be friends with the man with the biggest stick and currently China has an extremely large stick compared to everyone else. I think it makes more sense for Luther to start what is basically the freemasons but Chinese rather than start an organization that China would dedicate many resources to exterminating and probably do a good job of it.

You are immortal - why try and take over the world when Aaron is already doing all the hard work of building a world worth taking over?

[Speyland]

Can you give me an example of some plausible skills?

Practicing fencing for a dozen years, or a degree in a field, for instance.

But what about kendo? Is that plausible?

[Ralnis]

Hmm, being a Shadow Broker is cool. Information broking is a solid currency to work with for a black market and one that makes him more powerful than a smuggling ring. One that would even have him as Chinese ally but one that could turn on them and be a dangerous war if they want to get rid of him. From there he can build his group based around smuggling and investments but information and favors would be fundamental.

It is always good to be friends with the man with the biggest stick and currently China has an extremely large stick compared to everyone else. I think it makes more sense for Luther to start what is basically the freemasons but Chinese rather than start an organization that China would dedicate many resources to exterminating and probably do a good job of it.

You are immortal - why try and take over the world when Aaron is already doing all the hard work of building a world worth taking over?

Right, because Luther would obliviously help a tyrant and not be a third party and still be a criminal organization behind his back.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Practicing fencing for a dozen years, or a degree in a field, for instance.

But what about kendo? Is that plausible?

What degree of training do you have? You mentioned a few classes, which normally wouldn’t qualify.

[Orostan]

It is always good to be friends with the man with the biggest stick and currently China has an extremely large stick compared to everyone else. I think it makes more sense for Luther to start what is basically the freemasons but Chinese rather than start an organization that China would dedicate many resources to exterminating and probably do a good job of it.

You are immortal - why try and take over the world when Aaron is already doing all the hard work of building a world worth taking over?

Right, because Luther would obliviously help a tyrant and not be a third party and still be a criminal organization behind his back.

Aaron is much less of a tyrant than almost anyone else. Compared to whatever was going on in Sumeria China is doing fairly well, I bet.

Besides that I'm not suggesting you do whatever China tells you to do - I'm suggesting you maintain a good relationship with the government so they don't try and kill you and make things inconvenient.

[Ralnis]

Right, because Luther would obliviously help a tyrant and not be a third party and still be a criminal organization behind his back.

Aaron is much less of a tyrant than almost anyone else. Compared to whatever was going on in Sumeria China is doing fairly well, I bet.

Besides that I'm not suggesting you do whatever China tells you to do - I'm suggesting you maintain a good relationship with the government so they don't try and kill you and make things inconvenient.

Actually I think if Luther was there it would be more or less equal as both China and Sumeria are suffering from overextension and war but China would be doing better. However with Luther in China, he could mess with China even more than he could in Sumeria and I would think his skills make him more than a match for any veteran and perhaps even Pan.

[Orostan]

Aaron is much less of a tyrant than almost anyone else. Compared to whatever was going on in Sumeria China is doing fairly well, I bet.

Besides that I'm not suggesting you do whatever China tells you to do - I'm suggesting you maintain a good relationship with the government so they don't try and kill you and make things inconvenient.

Actually I think if Luther was there it would be more or less equal as both China and Sumeria are suffering from overextension and war but China would be doing better. However with Luther in China, he could mess with China even more than he could in Sumeria and I would think his skills make him more than a match for any veteran and perhaps even Pan.

It would be interesting to see a tribal army commanded in secret by Luther fight a central government army commanded by Pan Yazhu. I'm thinking that by the time Luther arrives in China that a central government army might resemble a Roman Manipular legion in many ways.

[Ralnis]

Actually I think if Luther was there it would be more or less equal as both China and Sumeria are suffering from overextension and war but China would be doing better. However with Luther in China, he could mess with China even more than he could in Sumeria and I would think his skills make him more than a match for any veteran and perhaps even Pan.

It would be interesting to see a tribal army commanded in secret by Luther fight a central government army commanded by Pan Yazhu. I'm thinking that by the time Luther arrives in China that a central government army might resemble a Roman Manipular legion in many ways.

I know that if Luther trained the tribal army, it wouldn't be a tribal army. He would actually have a professional army but it would be smaller than what the Chinese can field by multitudes. She would probably win by sheer numbers alone. However in a one-on-one fight I would give it to Luther with moderate difficulty. Being equal size and gear but skill is too big of a gap methinks. The Sumerians have waged a more difficult war where the Chinese only smashed through tribals and petty cities. More bloody but not to match them, only Long Tan's Rebellion was able to match the Chinese Army. So Luther would give her a fight on the different playing field if he really wanted to.

[Orostan]

It would be interesting to see a tribal army commanded in secret by Luther fight a central government army commanded by Pan Yazhu. I'm thinking that by the time Luther arrives in China that a central government army might resemble a Roman Manipular legion in many ways.

I know that if Luther trained the tribal army, it wouldn't be a tribal army. He would actually have a professional army but it would be smaller than what the Chinese can field by multitudes. She would probably win by sheer numbers alone. However in a one-on-one fight I would give it to Luther with moderate difficulty. Being equal size and gear but skill is too big of a gap methinks. The Sumerians have waged a more difficult war where the Chinese only smashed through tribals and petty cities. More bloody but not to match them, only Long Tan's Rebellion was able to match the Chinese Army. So Luther would give her a fight on the different playing field if he really wanted to.

China is a big empire and can't concentrate all its forces in one area quickly. It is very possible for a large tribal confederation to challenge a provincial army or a central government army at the edge of China's territory.

The Chinese wars against rebels in the north were very difficult and cost China a lot - but those wars only affected part of China. I wouldn't underestimate Pan or any of the other senior leaders in the Chinese military. You may have experience in Sumeria but China is a new world with new methods of war that you might be unfamiliar with and Pan will be very familiar with.

[Orostan]

Also, posted. Aaron's guys discover a way of making fizzling powder with charcoal, sulfur, and Niter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niter#Description

Niter is near bat guano so with the increasing demand for fertilizers it actually makes a lot of sense that this sort of thing would be discovered right about now. I want to have very primitive gunpowder that can make mining easier but I don't plan to use gunpowder weapons for a long time - iron mining is more important.

Also I really want to lean into the machine religion thing. The idea of China being divided between people who believe blast furnaces are holy and those that believe they're fire breathing demons is interesting and also can contribute to a few things I want to do later.

[Ralnis]

I know that if Luther trained the tribal army, it wouldn't be a tribal army. He would actually have a professional army but it would be smaller than what the Chinese can field by multitudes. She would probably win by sheer numbers alone. However in a one-on-one fight I would give it to Luther with moderate difficulty. Being equal size and gear but skill is too big of a gap methinks. The Sumerians have waged a more difficult war where the Chinese only smashed through tribals and petty cities. More bloody but not to match them, only Long Tan's Rebellion was able to match the Chinese Army. So Luther would give her a fight on the different playing field if he really wanted to.

China is a big empire and can't concentrate all its forces in one area quickly. It is very possible for a large tribal confederation to challenge a provincial army or a central government army at the edge of China's territory.

The Chinese wars against rebels in the north were very difficult and cost China a lot - but those wars only affected part of China. I wouldn't underestimate Pan or any of the other senior leaders in the Chinese military. You may have experience in Sumeria but China is a new world with new methods of war that you might be unfamiliar with and Pan will be very familiar with.

That depends, has China developed a black ops unit and has done actual intelligence and had to fight counter-intelligence work? Have they thrown dead bodies over walls with catapults? Made flamethrowers against besiegers? Poisoned wells? Spread the Red Death upon enemy and ally on accident due to the plague being more powerful than current medicine?

Despite all of that, I think Luther will experience a new battlefield. He's only fought in cities, the sea, deserts, plains, and mountains. So who knows what China can deliver to a man who just wants peace but can never find it so long he has a steel sword?

[Joohan]

Also, posted. Aaron's guys discover a way of making fizzling powder with charcoal, sulfur, and Niter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niter#Description

Niter is near bat guano so with the increasing demand for fertilizers it actually makes a lot of sense that this sort of thing would be discovered right about now. I want to have very primitive gunpowder that can make mining easier but I don't plan to use gunpowder weapons for a long time - iron mining is more important.

Also I really want to lean into the machine religion thing. The idea of China being divided between people who believe blast furnaces are holy and those that believe they're fire breathing demons is interesting and also can contribute to a few things I want to do later.

Yall, Luther hasn't even gotten to China yet - who knows what's going to happen; there's no point in blustering now.

Oro, in regards to your question about steam engines in every major town of china by the next timeskip - No. You're not an engineer or a mechanic irl, so your actual knowledge of how proper engines work should be pretty rudimentary, thus your experimentations should take ample time and effort. Case in point, as G pointed out, you can't hot rivet with cast iron like you purpose and would be useless for intended designs. Aaron, of course, wouldn't know that, and probably wouldn't figure it out until quite a bit of time and experimentation had passed.

when I said that your experimenting should take time, I meant years. Aaron hardly knows what he's doing, so he's not going to be putting steam engines in cities after only five years. I was thinking more that he didn't even have a proper prototype up until after the timeskip.

Another thing, your guys just happen to discover a precursor to gunpowder 3000 years in advance? Really? I think G has told you before that your citizens shouldn't just be coming up with new discoveries on their own which historically took them thousands of years to come upon. That they would even have access to niter is extremely dubios - for most of history, niter has been regarded as nothing more than an ingredient in soap, something which won't come about in any form until the year 2800. I don't recall Aaron introducing niter laden soap in any of his posts. Not that I would think he would even know what it looks like or how to actually harvest it.

[Ralnis]

Hey Joohan, let me grandstand despite Luther will only be a info broker, smuggler, and thief. He wouldn't want to fight as he would be afraid of fighting another war till he get his mind corrected. Hopefully.

[Orostan]

Also, posted. Aaron's guys discover a way of making fizzling powder with charcoal, sulfur, and Niter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niter#Description

Niter is near bat guano so with the increasing demand for fertilizers it actually makes a lot of sense that this sort of thing would be discovered right about now. I want to have very primitive gunpowder that can make mining easier but I don't plan to use gunpowder weapons for a long time - iron mining is more important.

Also I really want to lean into the machine religion thing. The idea of China being divided between people who believe blast furnaces are holy and those that believe they're fire breathing demons is interesting and also can contribute to a few things I want to do later.

Yall, Luther hasn't even gotten to China yet - who knows what's going to happen; there's no point in blustering now.

Oro, in regards to your question about steam engines in every major town of china by the next timeskip - No. You're not an engineer or a mechanic irl, so your actual knowledge of how proper engines work should be pretty rudimentary, thus your experimentations should take ample time and effort. Case in point, as G pointed out, you can't hot rivet with cast iron like you purpose and would be useless for intended designs. Aaron, of course, wouldn't know that, and probably wouldn't figure it out until quite a bit of time and experimentation had passed.

when I said that your experimenting should take time, I meant years. Aaron hardly knows what he's doing, so he's not going to be putting steam engines in cities after only five years. I was thinking more that he didn't even have a proper prototype up until after the timeskip.

Another thing, your guys just happen to discover a precursor to gunpowder 3000 years in advance? Really? I think G has told you before that your citizens shouldn't just be coming up with new discoveries on their own which historically took them thousands of years to come upon. That they would even have access to niter is extremely dubios - for most of history, niter has been regarded as nothing more than an ingredient in soap, something which won't come about in any form until the year 2800. I don't recall Aaron introducing niter laden soap in any of his posts. Not that I would think he would even know what it looks like or how to actually harvest it.

Aaron has been working on steam engines for ten years or almost that though. At this point Aaron has had plenty of experience with trying to build them. If I can’t have steam engines in every major town and city, how about only in Luoyang?

Also, my guys didn’t happen to discover anything. They’ve been combining sulfur, charcoal, and whatever else to try and make gunpowder. I had two of the three ingredients for it - I am only trying to find the third. Niter forms near guano which is starting to be used as fertilizer and it makes sense that it could be collected accidentally when trying to get guano.

[Joohan]

Hey Joohan, let me grandstand despite Luther will only be a info broker, smuggler, and thief. He wouldn't want to fight as he would be afraid of fighting another war till he get his mind corrected. Hopefully.

grandstand in tibet will ya? Issac is waiting on luther.

[Orostan]

China is a big empire and can't concentrate all its forces in one area quickly. It is very possible for a large tribal confederation to challenge a provincial army or a central government army at the edge of China's territory.

The Chinese wars against rebels in the north were very difficult and cost China a lot - but those wars only affected part of China. I wouldn't underestimate Pan or any of the other senior leaders in the Chinese military. You may have experience in Sumeria but China is a new world with new methods of war that you might be unfamiliar with and Pan will be very familiar with.

That depends, has China developed a black ops unit and has done actual intelligence and had to fight counter-intelligence work? Have they thrown dead bodies over walls with catapults? Made flamethrowers against besiegers? Poisoned wells? Spread the Red Death upon enemy and ally on accident due to the plague being more powerful than current medicine?

Despite all of that, I think Luther will experience a new battlefield. He's only fought in cities, the sea, deserts, plains, and mountains. So who knows what China can deliver to a man who just wants peace but can never find it so long he has a steel sword?

China hasn’t done much of that yet but by the time Luther arrives China will have some experience spying on a northern neighbor who will be an NPC civilization and dealing with the multitude of tribes to its west.

We will see how much Luther’s experience applies to China - I don’t think it will apply 100%.