New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[Orostan]

I am though? How can I apply Leninism and Maoism perfectly to the bronze age? There are no serfs in China and the concept of land ownership doesn't even exist because all land is held in common. The local administrators are largely accountable to local councils which represent the common people and are basically shuffled around however the central government likes. None has a claim to any land, much less a hereditary one. The end of the "Yellow River State" model is avoiding thousands of years of the worst tyranny and genocide imaginable.

If you hate what I'm doing, what is it that you want? At least I can show that with advances in machines, spreading literacy, and economic development that man has been plenty liberated from the oppression of famine and the poverty of the stone age.

What do you have to show for your efforts? A bunch of tribes who unless organized in basically the same way I am organizing my state will amount to nothing and be destroyed. The question isn't if I want man to be a "machine", it's if I want to be history's bitch or not. My choice is obvious, so what's yours?

Oh no keep doing what you're doing. You're writing a story and it can go as you like. But the idea that this is a perfect or socialist state is laughable. Your very means to this ends are wrong. You seek to build an egalitarian society by treating peasants like chattel slaves and forcibly relocate your neighbors to do as you like. Just as in modern times, violence rules this game. Bloodshed and cruelty which makes man alter from the other. In game olivia will probably hate everyone else, and stay a petty cheif of a group of tribes. But those who live by the sword will die by the sword, and China cannot last forever. So what will come after? I cannot imagine it will be a fun time for the project.

How are peasants slaves? The most I’ve done is the forced relocations - and those are necessary and better than the alternative of uncontrolled migrations and continued violence with rebels. Besides that the state usually gathers volunteers before just moving a neighborhood to another part of the country. Every state is organized to support the interests of one class over another and my state is organized to support the interests of urban workers over everything else because urban workers are the future and also actual peasant democracy is impossible. Olivia might have everyone else but this is because the imperium’s leaders manage somehow to be better communists than her because at least they believe in historical progress rather than primitivism.

“But those who live by the sword will die by the sword, and China cannot last forever.”

Nothing lasts forever but China will live far longer than you if you keep yourself limited to a tribal confederation. What come after the “People’s Government of China” is the “People’s Government of Earth”.

People will do a lot of things for some soap and silk.

While I'll let G and Joohan be the final arbiters if it ever comes up in the IC, I sincerely doubt that they would turn on their neighbors who they've intermarried with for thousands of years because some strangers from the far north offered them some soap and silk.

I don’t think tribes are that close - during periods when food is short there would be some violence between them to say the least.

[Orostan]

Oorstan I'm sorry for criticizing your story. I will not do it again since all it did was cause trouble.

I don’t mind, keep criticizing it. I like good criticism. My issue with Saxony-Brandenburg is that they are basically a utopian primitivist who has no right to call themselves a communist if what they have said reflects their actual views and not just RP stuff.

[Suriyanakhon]

On the plus side, no man no problem.

Honestly I wouldn't really consider them mistakes so much as just things that occur naturally when human societies collide. There's no way to totally avoid war or conflict in a world with scarcity, and as much as I'm not a fan of the Imperium or the Yellow River State, they're examples of two current states which have utilitarian interest even if some of their methods are brutal.

Damn, why no purple prose?

I only write purple prose when describing my characters' weird love triangles.

[Orostan]

love

How does this increase economic output?

[Suriyanakhon]

love

How does this increase economic output?

When a worker and another worker love each other very much....

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Oorstan I'm sorry for criticizing your story. I will not do it again since all it did was cause trouble.

I don’t mind, keep criticizing it. I like good criticism. My issue with Saxony-Brandenburg is that they are basically a utopian primitivist who has no right to call themselves a communist if what they have said reflects their actual views and not just RP stuff.

"It is through the effort to recapture the self and to scrutinize the self, it is through the lasting tension of their freedom that men will be able to create the ideal conditions of existence for a human world. Superiority? Inferiority? Why not the quite simple attempt to touch the other, to feel the other, to explain the other to myself? Was my freedom not given to me then in order to build the world of the You?" -Frantz Fanon

Call me whatever you want. I am both character and person, I use Olivia to explore my reactions to the past alongside my out of character understanding. I use communist aesthetics on my NS profile because I think it's cool. I've done the reading, I do activism IRL. But I'm just a girl who wishes to no longer feel alienated from her fellow humans.

[Orostan]

I don’t mind, keep criticizing it. I like good criticism. My issue with Saxony-Brandenburg is that they are basically a utopian primitivist who has no right to call themselves a communist if what they have said reflects their actual views and not just RP stuff.

"It is through the effort to recapture the self and to scrutinize the self, it is through the lasting tension of their freedom that men will be able to create the ideal conditions of existence for a human world. Superiority? Inferiority? Why not the quite simple attempt to touch the other, to feel the other, to explain the other to myself? Was my freedom not given to me then in order to build the world of the You?" -Frantz Fanon

Call me whatever you want. I am both character and person, I use Olivia to explore my reactions to the past alongside my out of character understanding. I use communist aesthetics on my NS profile because I think it's cool. I've done the reading, I do activism IRL. But I'm just a girl who wishes to no longer feel alienated from her fellow humans.

Alright. But it is always good to keep in mind that alienation is a byproduct of a larger system. To live in a primitivist commune might make you feel good but it won’t fix the world.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

"It is through the effort to recapture the self and to scrutinize the self, it is through the lasting tension of their freedom that men will be able to create the ideal conditions of existence for a human world. Superiority? Inferiority? Why not the quite simple attempt to touch the other, to feel the other, to explain the other to myself? Was my freedom not given to me then in order to build the world of the You?" -Frantz Fanon

Call me whatever you want. I am both character and person, I use Olivia to explore my reactions to the past alongside my out of character understanding. I use communist aesthetics on my NS profile because I think it's cool. I've done the reading, I do activism IRL. But I'm just a girl who wishes to no longer feel alienated from her fellow humans.

Alright. But it is always good to keep in mind that alienation is a byproduct of a larger system. To live in a primitivist commune might make you feel good but it won’t fix the world.

Olivia's worldview does not encompass being an isolated commune I assure you. But that is a story for later.

[Ralnis]

Alright. But it is always good to keep in mind that alienation is a byproduct of a larger system. To live in a primitivist commune might make you feel good but it won’t fix the world.

Olivia's worldview does not encompass being an isolated commune I assure you. But that is a story for later.

Don't worry, the Big Wang will make sure the Chinese know the spirit of the freer market and the power of greed. For the Big Wang knows that people want more than the Emperor gives them.

[Orostan]

Olivia's worldview does not encompass being an isolated commune I assure you. But that is a story for later.

Don't worry, the Big Wang will make sure the Chinese know the spirit of the freer market and the power of greed. For the Big Wang knows that people want more than the Emperor gives them.

Maybe they do want more than the empire can give them, but they’ll kill any man who thinks he’s a big enough wang to give some so much more than others.

[Speyland]

Guess what, guys. I'm returning! However, it'll be under a different writing style.

[Ralnis]

Don't worry, the Big Wang will make sure the Chinese know the spirit of the freer market and the power of greed. For the Big Wang knows that people want more than the Emperor gives them.

Maybe they do want more than the empire can give them, but they’ll kill any man who thinks he’s a big enough wang to give some so much more than others.

You like to think that your people would do that. That is when the Dong gives them better advantages than what the Emperor allows. And all they have to do is a couple of jobs for the Big Dong himself.

[Orostan]

Maybe they do want more than the empire can give them, but they’ll kill any man who thinks he’s a big enough wang to give some so much more than others.

You like to think that your people would do that. That is when the Dong gives them better advantages than what the Emperor allows. And all they have to do is a couple of jobs for the Big Dong himself.

Only a certain number of people could gain those advantages. You’d have to take something from someone else and give it to your guys.

[Ralnis]

You like to think that your people would do that. That is when the Dong gives them better advantages than what the Emperor allows. And all they have to do is a couple of jobs for the Big Dong himself.

Only a certain number of people could gain those advantages. You’d have to take something from someone else and give it to your guys.

I mean I plan on doing so.

[Existentialcrisis]

That's great speyland

[G-Tech Corporation]

Guess what, guys. I'm returning! However, it'll be under a different writing style.

Good news everyone!

Also @Orostan:

Just clarifying that the Chinese definitely have a concept of land ownership which the YRS won’t have significantly impacted yet - even Hunter-gather bands which rely on years rounds frame spacial narratives in terms of “ours” and “theirs”, and were provokable to violence when the other infringed on their rights.

[G-Tech Corporation]

@Commons: An Imperial Greatship is essentially a modified carrack - square rigged on her main and fore masts, with a lateen sail on the rear for adverse sailing conditions. Their main points of importance are that they are carvel built, making them very structurally sturdy and capable of carrying large cargos, and formidably tall on account of that structure. The deck of a Greatship rises nearly eighteen feet from the waterline, and fore and aft castles rise further still as fighting decks. They bear a single band of patina steel just below the waterline, three inches tall but quite thin. The essential role of the Greatship is to be a fighting platform from which Imperial soldiers can clear decks of opposing ships, while being very difficult to sink by ramming, and very difficult to seize by boarding.

Your spies might also hear of their strange black hulls, above and below the waterline, which is biocidal paint layered over a thin copper plate hull to prevent fouling. They maneuver remarkably quickly for their size on account of this, a good two to three knots on average ahead of other sailing vessels.

One other clarification though: I don’t think you ever responded to my question on why the Varna First! men would work with Aesop and the Scholars? Given said Scholars are exactly the people their movement was formed to drive from the city.

[UniversalCommons]

Scholar Tuvaromir was one of the founders of Varna First! His goal was to shift the power of the scholars to Varna away from Oak and build more local knowledge.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=460193&p=38280461&hilit=varna+first+scholar#p38280461

[UniversalCommons]

Scholar Tuvaromir was one of the founders of Varna First! His goal was to shift the power of the scholars to Varna away from Oak and build more local knowledge.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=460193&p=38280461&hilit=varna+first+scholar#p38280461

[G-Tech Corporation]

Scholar Tuvaromir was one of the founders of Varna First! His goal was to shift the power of the scholars to Varna away from Oak and build more local knowledge.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=460193&p=38280461&hilit=varna+first+scholar#p38280461

And... the average Varna First! xenophobe is cooperating with Aesop, an agent of the League and Oak, because? Sounds like something they would try to solve internally, not externally, especially if they have their own subset of Scholars supporting them.

[UniversalCommons]

Scholar Tuvaromir was one of the founders of Varna First! His goal was to shift the power of the scholars to Varna away from Oak and build more local knowledge.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=460193&p=38280461&hilit=varna+first+scholar#p38280461

And... the average Varna First! xenophobe is cooperating with Aesop, an agent of the League and Oak, because? Sounds like something they would try to solve internally, not externally, especially if they have their own subset of Scholars supporting them.

Because Aesop has essentially been assigned to serve the council of Varna. He is essentially an agent of the council of Varna. He is assigned there and has served them. He is a Hand serving Varna. I describe him escaping the bloody meeting with the councilors. It is his duty to put back together the council. He has a specific function. He has helped the councilors because it is his duty to help them. To get them out of the city and similar things. He failed miserably with the death of the council. He has to hide because he is a recognizable person. The majority of the people left who support the Council are Varna First! men.

[G-Tech Corporation]

And... the average Varna First! xenophobe is cooperating with Aesop, an agent of the League and Oak, because? Sounds like something they would try to solve internally, not externally, especially if they have their own subset of Scholars supporting them.

Because Aesop has essentially been assigned to serve the council of Varna. He is essentially an agent of the council of Varna. He is assigned there and has served them. He is a Hand serving Varna. I describe him escaping the bloody meeting with the councilors. It is his duty to put back together the council. He has a specific function. He has helped the councilors because it is his duty to help them. To get them out of the city and similar things. He failed miserably with the death of the council. He has to hide because he is a recognizable person. The majority of the people left who support the Council are Varna First! men.

Ah, but he is supporting the Council as an instrument, again, of the League. Exactly who Varna First was established in opposition to. And he is supporting them by bringing in foreigners, military men and mercenaries who Varna First despises. I fail to see how actively crushing a more independence-minded Varna with the backing of Varna First’s enemies appeals to the ideology of Varna First.

[Orostan]

Guess what, guys. I'm returning! However, it'll be under a different writing style.

Good news everyone!

Also @Orostan:

Just clarifying that the Chinese definitely have a concept of land ownership which the YRS won’t have significantly impacted yet - even Hunter-gather bands which rely on years rounds frame spacial narratives in terms of “ours” and “theirs”, and were provokable to violence when the other infringed on their rights.

Alright but that’s a far cry from “I own this place so you must pay rent to me for using it.”

You wouldn’t own something you aren’t using.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Good news everyone!

Also @Orostan:

Just clarifying that the Chinese definitely have a concept of land ownership which the YRS won’t have significantly impacted yet - even Hunter-gather bands which rely on years rounds frame spacial narratives in terms of “ours” and “theirs”, and were provokable to violence when the other infringed on their rights.

Alright but that’s a far cry from “I own this place so you must pay rent to me for using it.”

You wouldn’t own something you aren’t using.

Well, not exactly. A yearly round takes, as you might expect, a year to travel through. But if you were to kill game in a forest the band claims, even if they were at that point a hundred miles away harvesting shellfish, you’ll still provoke a conflict. Ownership is very much a thing, even if speculative owning of properties for rent and the like isn’t - people might agree to loan a tool in exchange for a portion of the proceeds for instance, but it doesn’t become the tool of the borrower because they are using it.

[UniversalCommons]

Because Aesop has essentially been assigned to serve the council of Varna. He is essentially an agent of the council of Varna. He is assigned there and has served them. He is a Hand serving Varna. I describe him escaping the bloody meeting with the councilors. It is his duty to put back together the council. He has a specific function. He has helped the councilors because it is his duty to help them. To get them out of the city and similar things. He failed miserably with the death of the council. He has to hide because he is a recognizable person. The majority of the people left who support the Council are Varna First! men.

Ah, but he is supporting the Council as an instrument, again, of the League. Exactly who Varna First was established in opposition to. And he is supporting them by bringing in foreigners, military men and mercenaries who Varna First despises. I fail to see how actively crushing a more independence-minded Varna with the backing of Varna First’s enemies appeals to the ideology of Varna First.

There has been no military action yet. These men have done nothing like you have described. They may be foreigners or mercenaries or locals. They are not revealing their identities to anyone. They are acting in support of Aesop.

You also have to look at what he has done for the council. He has helped them escape, providing them with transport out of the city. He also has provided an escape route for some of the councilors. He has not attacked anyone. He has also provided fishing boats for the Varna First to get to the countryside. None of this is as you have described it ideologically. He has provided funding for them to print circulars and flyers which have been posted. He has no need to use mercenaries or most of his men to do these actions.

Aesop does not like Varna First!, but those are the people he has to work with.

He is supporting the councilors so they can reach their followers. Whether they are Varna First! or the Merchant Jewelers and others is not the point. He is helping the council escape so they can create a Council in Exile. Not a single action has been military yet.

I would also say these actions are in direct support of the council. They may support the League as well, but they are not specific actions to support the League.

The specific actions to support the League would be things like watching the harbor, collecting information on Ranvald, gathering technology.

They may not like each other, but often people work to the same ends. There has been no break down yet like the communists versus the socialists in the Spanish civil war. It is at the beginning. There are many instances where opposing factions can work together to do something basic like move people or help people escape. Often opposing factions have some similar goals. This is part of managing people, finding similar goals even if people hate each other. They will glare at each other, but wait until the action is done. They currently have a common enemy.

The talk with Dardanus is very problematic.


You come in and promise a blessing to the people of Troy with help from Dotos. Dotos once again is not completely trustable. He has pushed out Ina's daughters Leivas husband, Deiphobus and is claiming to be high lord of the city. They would probably not say anything about this. Dardanus son could have been high lord. He has royal blood and Dotos does not. The issue of royal blood once again rears its head.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=460193&p=37676147&hilit=ina+daughter#p37676147

This is essentially a long act of war for Troy. Dardanaus would keep his mouth shut as it became stranger with talk of a plague. Plagues are retributions from the gods. This would be a frightening statement that you can control a plague.

To further add to it, Dardanus has been an ally of the Nestos League for over a decade. The Imperium has visited once. It does not make sense at all. They have sent some of their sons to study with the scholars.

There is talk of war and treachery. The only statements are about violence and alliance around plagues. He would keep his mouth shut once he heard there was a cure for the plague and take it but not be a reliable ally as you are describing.

There is never any talk about trade, exchange of marriage, knowledge or anything else. Everything hinges on the plague.

If as he said, he would, he visits Ur, the whole thing falls apart completely. Ur can offer trade, wants help with conquering Turkey, has the variolation, has a royal house and royalty that can offer marriage. Ur would have a much more complete offer than the Imperium.

It might even add to the coming invasion by Ur.