New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[Ralnis]

Only 10,000 are left.

You’re joking

Nope

[Suriyanakhon]

Only 10,000 are left.

how long until china gets to colonize sumeria?

Around the time it's actually as big as it pretends it is.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

You’re joking

Nope

There’s literally more nomads running around Hejaz than that

[Orostan]

how long until china gets to colonize sumeria?

Around the time it's actually as big as it pretends it is.

Actually, the arrangement I worked out with Joohan and G-Tech lets me keep my current big borders. In exchange I don't expand really for the next twenty years.

So I guess it's twenty years until I get to colonize Sumeria.

[Endem]

Oh, Joohan? If you have some time, I was wondering if you could extrapolate Sumeria’s population post-wars/displacement for us, for use in future posts.

Only 10,000 are left.

That's... Geez the civil wars must have been awful on ya.


At the same time the estimate G-Tech gave me for what will make up my core territories is about 36,000, *Machiavellian chuckle*

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Only 10,000 are left.

That's... Geez the civil wars must have been awful on ya.


At the same time the estimate G-Tech gave me for what will make up my core territories is about 36,000, *Machiavellian chuckle*

REMEMBER you don’t control all that and won’t without substantial effort. Plus- plus- a LOT of that is seasonal and nomadic. My nomadic population fluctuates by 5,000 by the time of the year

[Ralnis]

Actually I'm thinking of having Luther leave for Congo with as much information as he can gather and go establish a new civilzation.

[Joohan]

Oh, Joohan? If you have some time, I was wondering if you could extrapolate Sumeria’s population post-wars/displacement for us, for use in future posts.

Only 10,000 are left.

no


Bruh, you could not have killed 790,000 people even if you actively were trying to do just that. At the absolute worst, given technology and order of this region at this time, the most casualties you'd have sustained following a civil war would be 10,000. Displacement maybe double that - leading to a 30,000 person decrease overall. But, at the same time, birthrates over a decade would make up most of that lost population, meaning you're still hovering around 800ish thousand people across the whole of ancient Mesopotamia.

You'd pretty much have to nuke every single Mesopotamian city in order to get your population that low.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Only 10,000 are left.

no


Bruh, you could not have killed 790,000 people even if you actively were trying to do just that. At the absolute worst, given technology and order of this region at this time, the most casualties you'd have sustained following a civil war would be 10,000. Displacement maybe double that - leading to a 30,000 person decrease overall. But, at the same time, birthrates over a decade would make up most of that lost population, meaning you're still hovering around 800ish thousand people across the whole of ancient Mesopotamia.

You'd pretty much have to nuke every single Mesopotamian city in order to get your population that low.

Mm, well, I'd think just the military losses from the first war would have been more than 10k. Given Ur conquered at least two dozen cities that could marshal a thousand men.

[Joohan]

no


Bruh, you could not have killed 790,000 people even if you actively were trying to do just that. At the absolute worst, given technology and order of this region at this time, the most casualties you'd have sustained following a civil war would be 10,000. Displacement maybe double that - leading to a 30,000 person decrease overall. But, at the same time, birthrates over a decade would make up most of that lost population, meaning you're still hovering around 800ish thousand people across the whole of ancient Mesopotamia.

You'd pretty much have to nuke every single Mesopotamian city in order to get your population that low.

Mm, well, I'd think just the military losses from the first war would have been more than 10k. Given Ur conquered at least two dozen cities that could marshal a thousand men.

Did he sack the cities afterward? Just because the opposing side if fielding a thousand men, doesn't mean a thousand men are about to die. Typically, in the combat of antiquity, only a fraction of an army's force is killed before the rest of the army is forced to flee and or surrender. The only way I could see casualties escalating far beyond that would be if those cities were sacked promptly after.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Mm, well, I'd think just the military losses from the first war would have been more than 10k. Given Ur conquered at least two dozen cities that could marshal a thousand men.

Did he sack the cities afterward? Just because the opposing side if fielding a thousand men, doesn't mean a thousand men are about to die. Typically, in the combat of antiquity, only a fraction of an army's force is killed before the rest of the army is forced to flee and or surrender. The only way I could see casualties escalating far beyond that would be if those cities were sacked promptly after.

Uruk at least had a post where it was burned to the ground, and I'm lightly doubting that conscript armies can be prevented from sacking in a religious conflict, which was what the first civil war was.

Though, of course I can't really say that for sure. All of that civil war was across a timeskip, so we don't really have any details aside from all of Sumeria being conquered and forcibly transitioned to the worship of the Seven. To me, that sounds like it would require a -lot- of killing.

[New Arcadius]

It has been too long everyone.

The reason why for my long absence is mostly because I have been working on other projects, and frankly, I don't know if I can keep up here. I am far behind, and I know that the Ethiopia guy is already leagues ahead. I will have to drop a MASSIVE MASSIVE post in order to catch up, but he'll probably be upset if I start to interrupt his activities in Egypt.

If I can concentrate, I could get the post done in a day, but it may take several hours to write an entire pages worth of activity.

Someone give me a quick rundown on whats happening in Ethiopia and Egypt so I can write a post, then disappear again for another 9 months.

[Orostan]

Only 10,000 are left.

no


Bruh, you could not have killed 790,000 people even if you actively were trying to do just that. At the absolute worst, given technology and order of this region at this time, the most casualties you'd have sustained following a civil war would be 10,000. Displacement maybe double that - leading to a 30,000 person decrease overall. But, at the same time, birthrates over a decade would make up most of that lost population, meaning you're still hovering around 800ish thousand people across the whole of ancient Mesopotamia.

You'd pretty much have to nuke every single Mesopotamian city in order to get your population that low.

That reminds me, how high did we say China’s population could go?

[Ralnis]

Did he sack the cities afterward? Just because the opposing side if fielding a thousand men, doesn't mean a thousand men are about to die. Typically, in the combat of antiquity, only a fraction of an army's force is killed before the rest of the army is forced to flee and or surrender. The only way I could see casualties escalating far beyond that would be if those cities were sacked promptly after.

Uruk at least had a post where it was burned to the ground, and I'm lightly doubting that conscript armies can be prevented from sacking in a religious conflict, which was what the first civil war was.

Though, of course I can't really say that for sure. All of that civil war was across a timeskip, so we don't really have any details aside from all of Sumeria being conquered and forcibly transitioned to the worship of the Seven. To me, that sounds like it would require a -lot- of killing.

Like I said, 10,000 at least.

[G-Tech Corporation]

It has been too long everyone.

The reason why for my long absence is mostly because I have been working on other projects, and frankly, I don't know if I can keep up here. I am far behind, and I know that the Ethiopia guy is already leagues ahead. I will have to drop a MASSIVE MASSIVE post in order to catch up, but he'll probably be upset if I start to interrupt his activities in Egypt.

If I can concentrate, I could get the post done in a day, but it may take several hours to write an entire pages worth of activity.

Someone give me a quick rundown on whats happening in Ethiopia and Egypt so I can write a post, then disappear again for another 9 months.

Not desperately much in Egypt - your ladies and lads are probably still garnering influence in the North. Aksum has just started courting the prince of Thebes for an Aksumite ally/vassal, but that's in her infancy.

Oh, and I've sold the Egyptians iron weapons and composite bows, so your holy warriors are probably becoming better armed.

[New Arcadius]

It has been too long everyone.

The reason why for my long absence is mostly because I have been working on other projects, and frankly, I don't know if I can keep up here. I am far behind, and I know that the Ethiopia guy is already leagues ahead. I will have to drop a MASSIVE MASSIVE post in order to catch up, but he'll probably be upset if I start to interrupt his activities in Egypt.

If I can concentrate, I could get the post done in a day, but it may take several hours to write an entire pages worth of activity.

Someone give me a quick rundown on whats happening in Ethiopia and Egypt so I can write a post, then disappear again for another 9 months.

Not desperately much in Egypt - your ladies and lads are probably still garnering influence in the North. Aksum has just started courting the prince of Thebes for an Aksumite ally/vassal, but that's in her infancy.

Oh, and I've sold the Egyptians iron weapons and composite bows, so your holy warriors are probably becoming better armed.

So what we're looking at here:

- Egypt is basically dividing itself between Aksum and Siwa
- Iron has entered into the hands of Egyptians as well as composite bows years earlier before they even got their hands on it
- Basically, the Iron Age has begun in the region

Alright... This is good, this is good. Because the last I had left off, I was going to invade, but I stopped abruptly to do my other stuff.

So what would be a good way to make a comeback post? Maybe TG me?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Not desperately much in Egypt - your ladies and lads are probably still garnering influence in the North. Aksum has just started courting the prince of Thebes for an Aksumite ally/vassal, but that's in her infancy.

Oh, and I've sold the Egyptians iron weapons and composite bows, so your holy warriors are probably becoming better armed.

So what we're looking at here:

- Egypt is basically dividing itself between Aksum and Siwa
- Iron has entered into the hands of Egyptians as well as composite bows years earlier before they even got their hands on it
- Basically, the Iron Age has begun in the region

Alright... This is good, this is good. Because the last I had left off, I was going to invade, but I stopped abruptly to do my other stuff.

So what would be a good way to make a comeback post? Maybe TG me?

Sure thing, I'll hyu.

[Ralnis]

Gonna burn down Ur and go make a new nation in Congo with stolen Sumerian knowledge. Become a warlord.

[G-Tech Corporation]

This is an interesting idea. Variolation comes from our ally in Ur. How long would it be before the people in Ur figure out they have a way to cure people. If Kug Bau goes into the archives and finds out about how the disease was dealt with would he find variolation.

The other thing is we have a considerable amount of people from Mesopotamia in Anbar across the river. Eventually, we might figure out what is being done.

Certainly. Variolation comes from Ur - if you study the people there, it is probably couched in mystical language, and so difficult to tease out. But if Victor has some background in medicine, it should be recognizable.

If you read carefully, Salt has gone to extremes for quarantine. In modern times, it is possible through a combination of tracing, identification, isolation, monitoring, personal protection, safe burials, and cleaning to eliminate viral diseases like Marburg and Ebola which have no cure. It requires extreme action. It also requires a willingness to keep strangers away. Salt is very close to the Black Sea. This would have spread to Varna. Essentially, there are patches where the virus has been eliminated inside the Nestos League. Many of the places near Salt would also have eliminated the disease. Part of the reason they are able to do this is because of their ties to christianity and Aksum which has a heavy focus on soap and cleanliness. Varna is able to follow it, because they have seen what happens when they don't do it.

Mm, perhaps. I'd hesitate to sign off on a society which is still effectively Neolithic, with little in the way of a central government, functionally eradicating a highly contagious disease like the Red Plague - even with the most stringent controls. Even tribal governments working directly with their own kinsmen don't have that level of control, and your protective efforts will naturally be more primitive and less viable than anything even smelling of modernity. Cutting down on the virus, sure, eliminated, ehhhh.

Essentially, we have a situation where we need to enforce law and order in loosely aligned Nestos League. This would be a challenge. It might come from a newly formed military.

Actually that's another question I had - I think we can both agree that the Imperium has more central control, and a more regimented military than the League. It's also fairly axiomatic that the League has more contact with Varna than the Imperium. So how can the League keep an effectively controlled border in infected Dacia, given her volunteer and mercenary military, when the Imperium can't? Especially given mercenaries like the Silver Scorpions will be skedaddling at the first signs of plague, as mercenaries were wont to do. Can't spend good pay if you're dead.

I'd also just clarify that I strongly doubt Dacian hill tribes are forging their own steel. Though if that's a storyline you're working with where the man was lying to avoid execution, sure, no worries.

[UniversalCommons]

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[UniversalCommons]

*

[UniversalCommons]

Part of this has to do with the nature of the Warrior Hunter tradition which teaches tracking and hunting and bowmanship. Most soldiers are not trackers, they fight each other, they are not like ranger units, or woodsman units. There is also the tracking tradition with a variety of different war dogs. In addition, there is the extensive use of optics. There is also the use of towers for communication, study, and living.

Four reasons, war dogs, towers, trackers, and optics. The optics comes out of the war with Ur where optics were used as a siting mechanism for crossbows. The war dogs were the Molosser dog. Some of the dogs are trained to hunt in packs or fight in packs during wartime. There is another reason we are more able to find people. During our early conflicts we were dealing with raiders and slavers, people you have to track and hunt down if you are going to fight them.

Thinking about the steel, Joohan described the raiders as having steel. The answer I can think of is that they managed to get steel from the Slavic Union through trade, a defunct player group. Basically, you have some Russians that survived or some Commonwealth people that survived and are making steel somewhere to the East of Mountain Cove. I like the idea of the Chalybes or Chaldoi-- the first makers of steel being an idea. What matters is they are getting it somehow. If there are people from the Commonwealth in Mountain Cove, it is very likely that there is steel there.

Dacia has lots of silver, iron, and gold which could be traded for a variety of things.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Part of this has to do with the nature of the Warrior Hunter tradition which teaches tracking and hunting and bowmanship. Most soldiers are not trackers, they fight each other, they are not like ranger units, or woodsman units. There is also the tracking tradition with a variety of different war dogs. In addition, there is the extensive use of optics. There is also the use of towers for communication, study, and living.

Four reasons, war dogs, towers, trackers, and optics. The optics comes out of the war with Ur where optics were used as a siting mechanism for crossbows. The war dogs were the Molosser dog. Some of the dogs are trained to hunt in packs or fight in packs during wartime. There is another reason we are more able to find people. During our early conflicts we were dealing with raiders and slavers, people you have to track and hunt down if you are going to fight them.

I think you mistake me - I'm not asking how you can find raiders. That's a fairly straightforward question. I'm asking how the League has the coherency of military and social stability to maintain a watch on her borders when one in every five of her able-bodied men is dead, her mercenaries have fled the region, and her member settlements are looking to themselves ahead of the League. If a regimented military society like the Imperium can't sustain a sufficient military presence for that purpose with her centralized rule, logistical support structures, and independent military entities, I'm not sure how the League could manage it.

Thinking about the steel, Joohan described the raiders as having steel. The answer I can think of is that they managed to get steel from the Slavic Union through trade, a defunct player group. Basically, you have some Russians that survived or some Commonwealth people that survived and are making steel somewhere to the East of Mountain Cove. I like the idea of the Chalybes or Chaldoi-- the first makers of steel being an idea. What matters is they are getting it somehow. If there are people from the Commonwealth in Mountain Cove, it is very likely that there is steel there.

Dacia has lots of silver, iron, and gold which could be traded for a variety of things.

Yes, the raiders have some steel weapons - taken from Imperials slain in their raids, not manufactured by themselves. He mentioned them having ironworking, but it is my impression even that is quite crude, essentially tools bought in trade reforged for weapons of war. The Slavs never actually had their steelworking signed off on, and I'm pretty sure the Single Market and Commonwealth both didn't have steel either.

[Joohan]

Did he sack the cities afterward? Just because the opposing side if fielding a thousand men, doesn't mean a thousand men are about to die. Typically, in the combat of antiquity, only a fraction of an army's force is killed before the rest of the army is forced to flee and or surrender. The only way I could see casualties escalating far beyond that would be if those cities were sacked promptly after.

Uruk at least had a post where it was burned to the ground, and I'm lightly doubting that conscript armies can be prevented from sacking in a religious conflict, which was what the first civil war was.

Though, of course I can't really say that for sure. All of that civil war was across a timeskip, so we don't really have any details aside from all of Sumeria being conquered and forcibly transitioned to the worship of the Seven. To me, that sounds like it would require a -lot- of killing.

Even still, I'm thinking of just how capable the Sumerian forces would be at actually enacting such wide scale violence. Using the Sack of Constantinople in 1204 example, only around 3,000 people were killed out of a population of some 400,000.

It may seem kind of strange, but, having a larger and richer city actually helped to mitigate the devastation which could be delivered by a sacking army. Generally, you could only haul away as much loot as you could carry. When a castle or a village got looted, they were typically picked clean and burned to the ground afterward because there wasn't much wealth to go around. Places like Rome, Paris, Damascus, Constantinople, Kiev, Baghdad, Deli - these places have been looted and sacked before but still persisted centuries onward because they had enough wealth and size to satiate whatever hoard was coming through. A city of some 40,000 people I imagine could probably satiate the greed of a 1,000 Sumerian conscripts who would almost certainly have to hand carry their loot by foot back home. Likewise, butchering that many people would be quite a feat to actually accomplish...

10,000 dead is no number balk at, and I think quite reasonable given the state of their war and for the limited timeframe in which it occurred.

[Endem]

That's... Geez the civil wars must have been awful on ya.


At the same time the estimate G-Tech gave me for what will make up my core territories is about 36,000, *Machiavellian chuckle*

REMEMBER you don’t control all that and won’t without substantial effort. Plus- plus- a LOT of that is seasonal and nomadic. My nomadic population fluctuates by 5,000 by the time of the year

Religion is quite a good at uniting populations, and I'm carefully picking traits that ensure the spread, and the staying of it in a population.