New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[Ralnis]

All will be Sumerian by the end of the day.

I think you have forgotten by now Ralnis- I’m more Sumerian than you at this point even since I’ve taken in so many of your people! Indeed, we know and worship more of your gods than yourself!

I know, which makes conquering you much easier.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

I think you have forgotten by now Ralnis- I’m more Sumerian than you at this point even since I’ve taken in so many of your people! Indeed, we know and worship more of your gods than yourself!

I know, which makes conquering you much easier.

Hah! Try me! Not our fault our former trade allies turned out to be tyrants!

[Ralnis]

I know, which makes conquering you much easier.

Hah! Try me! Not our fault our former trade allies turned out to be tyrants!

You the one who broke that one. I never did anything wrong except help try to foster trade and relations in the Red Sea. It maybe underneath my influence before Aksum, but the point stands. I haven't ever done anything to you but now I have been a pour tyrant as of right now. Let me try to rectify that

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Hah! Try me! Not our fault our former trade allies turned out to be tyrants!

You the one who broke that one. I never did anything wrong except help try to foster trade and relations in the Red Sea. It maybe underneath my influence before Aksum, but the point stands. I haven't ever done anything to you but now I have been a pour tyrant as of right now. Let me try to rectify that

Btw how do you know we broke that? I mean - for all you know your slavers dumped the poor bastards in the sea, and went back home to fulfill the contract!

[UniversalCommons]

Camels have been domesticated around Somalia and Southern Arabia around 3000 B.C.E, it's not hard to imagine their use would spread to Aksum and the rest of Arabia by now.

Ehhh but you have to remember, the first date of domestication really doesn't mean camels are domesticated as we think of them. They haven't been selectively bred to carry burdens, or for size, or for speed. Nor, for that matter, likely concentrated into any meaningful breeding populations. Using a domesticated animal as a mount is rather different than using it for meat, or milk, or even as a pack animal.

Sure, you can put a man in armor on top of a camel. But if that camel swiftly tires under his weight, or struggles to appreciably exceed a sedate walking pace for any period of time under his burden, that camelry is useless - and that's the type of camel we're talking about at present.

So, what's going on in Africa these days?

Hmm. Religious fanatics have set up a state in Libya and are making inroads into Egypt, different religious fanatics have set up a state in Aksum and are doing pretty much the same, and Thracian traders have set up trade posts in Carthage. That's about it, if memory serves. A fairly blank slate. Would be happy to have you, Olth, if you're thinking of joining.

Carthage is the central production area for silphium (birth control), nepenthe, and other controlled medical substances like hemp and opium. It has grown to be a bit larger than a trading post at this point. It would be a small walled fortified and armed city at this point. Cyrene would not be far away. This would be the main source for silphium growing. The pair of cities would be a key commodity source for medicines. It is the kind of thing where the traders would say that the materials coming out of Carthage and Cyrene would come from another place like Spain. There would be some misdirection about our holdings in Libya.

[Ralnis]

You the one who broke that one. I never did anything wrong except help try to foster trade and relations in the Red Sea. It maybe underneath my influence before Aksum, but the point stands. I haven't ever done anything to you but now I have been a pour tyrant as of right now. Let me try to rectify that

Btw how do you know we broke that? I mean - for all you know your slavers dumped the poor bastards in the sea, and went back home to fulfill the contract!

I mean assuming isn't the same as knowing. Luther would be smart enough to assume that pirates attacking three out of four countries that trade in the Red Sea. He knows that slaves do tend to run to Yanbu since it would be a common enough occurrence. One could reason that Luther maybe talking with Aksum about this problem and sending spies to uncover the truth of his assumptions and might find some evidence depending on how well Yanbu covered it up.

[UniversalCommons]

Btw how do you know we broke that? I mean - for all you know your slavers dumped the poor bastards in the sea, and went back home to fulfill the contract!

I mean assuming isn't the same as knowing. Luther would be smart enough to assume that pirates attacking three out of four countries that trade in the Red Sea. He knows that slaves do tend to run to Yanbu since it would be a common enough occurrence. One could reason that Luther maybe talking with Aksum about this problem and sending spies to uncover the truth of his assumptions and might find some evidence depending on how well Yanbu covered it up.

A major source of piracy comes from slavery. They go hand in hand. Escaped slaves tend to have limited resources so joining a pirate crew was not that uncommon if you were an escaped slave. The choice between being a laborer or a slave on the run and being a pirate is a fairly easy one. Also, if you are a pirate attacking slave ships if you need men is not a bad idea.

[Ralnis]

I mean assuming isn't the same as knowing. Luther would be smart enough to assume that pirates attacking three out of four countries that trade in the Red Sea. He knows that slaves do tend to run to Yanbu since it would be a common enough occurrence. One could reason that Luther maybe talking with Aksum about this problem and sending spies to uncover the truth of his assumptions and might find some evidence depending on how well Yanbu covered it up.

A major source of piracy comes from slavery. They go hand in hand. Escaped slaves tend to have limited resources so joining a pirate crew was not that uncommon if you were an escaped slave. The choice between being a laborer or a slave on the run and being a pirate is a fairly easy one. Also, if you are a pirate attacking slave ships if you need men is not a bad idea.

The main point is that I have no evidence to associate Yanbu with the increasing piracy. However Luther and others could assume since the major traders have some sort of servitude or slavery policy and their getting hit. Yanbu on the other hand doesn't so reasoning could lead to an investigation to see if it's true or not.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

A major source of piracy comes from slavery. They go hand in hand. Escaped slaves tend to have limited resources so joining a pirate crew was not that uncommon if you were an escaped slave. The choice between being a laborer or a slave on the run and being a pirate is a fairly easy one. Also, if you are a pirate attacking slave ships if you need men is not a bad idea.

The main point is that I have no evidence to associate Yanbu with the increasing piracy. However Luther and others could assume since the major traders have some sort of servitude or slavery policy and their getting hit. Yanbu on the other hand doesn't so reasoning could lead to an investigation to see if it's true or not.

unless those investigators disappear... heh heh

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

unless those investigators disappear... heh heh

How crude. Never underestimate the power of a determined population.

Squabbles with local officials at every port and checkpoint, going over imaginary discrepancies in paperwork. An inexplicable shortage of wood for repairs, food, or whatever other supplies an investigative team might need. Fallen trees over forest trails, washed out bridges, and how strange, nobody seems to know where the major fords are.

The 1968 Soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia is your mentor and guide. ;)

[Ralnis]

The main point is that I have no evidence to associate Yanbu with the increasing piracy. However Luther and others could assume since the major traders have some sort of servitude or slavery policy and their getting hit. Yanbu on the other hand doesn't so reasoning could lead to an investigation to see if it's true or not.

unless those investigators disappear... heh heh

Sure, and if they get lost then I can assume that my accusations were correct in this case. Which would then allow me to put harsher scrutiny on you and then force a bit of my hand. You want a tyrant then you may get one.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ehhh but you have to remember, the first date of domestication really doesn't mean camels are domesticated as we think of them. They haven't been selectively bred to carry burdens, or for size, or for speed. Nor, for that matter, likely concentrated into any meaningful breeding populations. Using a domesticated animal as a mount is rather different than using it for meat, or milk, or even as a pack animal.

Sure, you can put a man in armor on top of a camel. But if that camel swiftly tires under his weight, or struggles to appreciably exceed a sedate walking pace for any period of time under his burden, that camelry is useless - and that's the type of camel we're talking about at present.



Hmm. Religious fanatics have set up a state in Libya and are making inroads into Egypt, different religious fanatics have set up a state in Aksum and are doing pretty much the same, and Thracian traders have set up trade posts in Carthage. That's about it, if memory serves. A fairly blank slate. Would be happy to have you, Olth, if you're thinking of joining.

Carthage is the central production area for silphium (birth control), nepenthe, and other controlled medical substances like hemp and opium. It has grown to be a bit larger than a trading post at this point. It would be a small walled fortified and armed city at this point. Cyrene would not be far away. This would be the main source for silphium growing. The pair of cities would be a key commodity source for medicines. It is the kind of thing where the traders would say that the materials coming out of Carthage and Cyrene would come from another place like Spain. There would be some misdirection about our holdings in Libya.

Oh? I don't think you've ever actually posted about Carthage, save OOCly. Might wanna send Victor over there if you want such claims recognized ICly.

[Endem]

I mean, if we look past religious differences you'd probably find we have similar goals through different methods ( so, alliance? )

Oh very much so!

Yay! Arabia shall not yet be divided!

[Ralnis]

Oh very much so!

Yay! Arabia shall not yet be divided!

Coughs in Rub-al Khali.

[Endem]

Yay! Arabia shall not yet be divided!

Coughs in Rub-al Khali.

We can always sail around, or you know, good ol' camels carrying truckloads of water and food

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Oh very much so!

Yay! Arabia shall not yet be divided!

oh yeah id love to work together eventually - even make a collab post! But i do think our cultures will split on some very interesting points. Especially since a lot of my urban centers are coastal, maritime populations who fuse sumerian and local cultures

[Endem]

Yay! Arabia shall not yet be divided!

oh yeah id love to work together eventually - even make a collab post! But i do think our cultures will split on some very interesting points. Especially since a lot of my urban centers are coastal, maritime populations who fuse sumerian and local cultures

Hmm, I do wonder what those points of divergence will be, except for religion of course.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

oh yeah id love to work together eventually - even make a collab post! But i do think our cultures will split on some very interesting points. Especially since a lot of my urban centers are coastal, maritime populations who fuse sumerian and local cultures

Hmm, I do wonder what those points of divergence will be, except for religion of course.

Well we already value coffee a great deal - one of the few things that we can grow in the rocky hills with a lot of labor.

[Alaroma]

Here’s a question, does it make any difference how heavily armed the Calvery man in question is for the camels. Maybe it can’t be a fully armed legionar. But perhaps a slinger, or someone with javelins and a spear and shield. Keeping thing light

[G-Tech Corporation]

Here’s a question, does it make any difference how heavily armed the Calvery man in question is for the camels. Maybe it can’t be a fully armed legionar. But perhaps a slinger, or someone with javelins and a spear and shield. Keeping thing light

Sure, absolutely. But the main advantage of cavalry classically is, of course, the ability to carry heavier armor into battle than is conceivable on foot. Putting a spearman or a slinger on a bouncing platform that will foul their aim, makes it hard to defend themselves, and prevents them fighting men on foot as effectively - not to mention the time and effort involved in rearing and training the camels - is pretty much a losing proposition. They’ll fight better on their own two feet, and die harder too.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Huh. I was always under the impression that the primary purposes of cavalry was to either use the weight of its charge to put opposing infantry in disarray, or use its superior mobility to flank.

The heavy armour advantage of horseback riding is something I haven't heard of. TIL.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Huh. I was always under the impression that the primary purposes of cavalry was to either use the weight of its charge to put opposing infantry in disarray, or use its superior mobility to flank.

The heavy armour advantage of horseback riding is something I haven't heard of. TIL.

All useful things - as is things you see following the invention of the stirrup and composite bow, like mounted archery. But both of those axioms (the charge, flanking) rely on presenting a credible threat to a foe. Lightly unarmored or unarmored horsemen are big targets and your charge or flanking force has to live through archery to actually discomfit the enemy. That’s why, historically speaking, it was a rare commander who managed to use mounted forces effectively, prior to the breeding of true warhorses and the creation of heavy cavalry like the cataphract.

Mind you, that’s not to say those conditions are absolutely necessary. Nomadic forces with many horses, for instance, might fight mounted anyway because of the availability of the beasts, heavy armor and specialized weaponry be damned.

[Alaroma]

Here’s a question, does it make any difference how heavily armed the Calvery man in question is for the camels. Maybe it can’t be a fully armed legionar. But perhaps a slinger, or someone with javelins and a spear and shield. Keeping thing light

Sure, absolutely. But the main advantage of cavalry classically is, of course, the ability to carry heavier armor into battle than is conceivable on foot. Putting a spearman or a slinger on a bouncing platform that will foul their aim, makes it hard to defend themselves, and prevents them fighting men on foot as effectively - not to mention the time and effort involved in rearing and training the camels - is pretty much a losing proposition. They’ll fight better on their own two feet, and die harder too.

I mean, there are examples of effective light Calvary tbf. Also the ability to get places faster is important too. That all said, I’d like to get a tradition of Camelry going for future generations, when carrying heavier equipment is feasible

[G-Tech Corporation]

Sure, absolutely. But the main advantage of cavalry classically is, of course, the ability to carry heavier armor into battle than is conceivable on foot. Putting a spearman or a slinger on a bouncing platform that will foul their aim, makes it hard to defend themselves, and prevents them fighting men on foot as effectively - not to mention the time and effort involved in rearing and training the camels - is pretty much a losing proposition. They’ll fight better on their own two feet, and die harder too.

I mean, there are examples of effective light Calvary tbf. Also the ability to get places faster is important too. That all said, I’d like to get a tradition of Camelry going for future generations, when carrying heavier equipment is feasible

Yeah, nothing wrong with light cav. Reconnaissance and communication are both handy. Though, it’s important to note that cavalry seldom outpaces infantry from a strategic perspective - only when you’re talking about tactical considerations or logistics is it really handy, and in logistics we’re talking draft animals to free up men, not speed.

[Joohan]

eh you g - you check the collab recently?