New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[G-Tech Corporation]

Still waiting to get the confirmation about the thing i've got envisioned...

So about the status of League confederates in Dacia...

[Joohan]

Still waiting to get the confirmation about the thing i've got envisioned...

So about the status of League confederates in Dacia...

He's not been around for a while now has he? I would suppose the plague is hitting them just as bad as everyone else in the region right now.

Oh, and i've an update on the imperium's situation here in a bit.

[Orostan]

@ Orostan: You around? Was looking for a map of the Yellow River State.

Yes, I've got a map.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... sp=sharing

Most of the southern territory is being integrated and the bureaucrats of the state are overworked, but less so then they were just after the territory was conquered. I won't be expanding much further for a while to say the least and have a post in the works about the administrative challenges of running the area.

[G-Tech Corporation]

@ Orostan: You around? Was looking for a map of the Yellow River State.

Yes, I've got a map.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... sp=sharing

Most of the southern territory is being integrated and the bureaucrats of the state are overworked, but less so then they were just after the territory was conquered. I won't be expanding much further for a while to say the least and have a post in the works about the administrative challenges of running the area.

Uhhh you ran this map by Joohan?

[Orostan]

Yes, I've got a map.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit? ... sp=sharing

Most of the southern territory is being integrated and the bureaucrats of the state are overworked, but less so then they were just after the territory was conquered. I won't be expanding much further for a while to say the least and have a post in the works about the administrative challenges of running the area.

Uhhh you ran this map by Joohan?

Do you really think this is that much of a stretch? Almost all of this territory is plains which are easy to cross, and the area that isn't is very sparsely populated and is mostly buffer for the areas i actually care about protecting.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Uhhh you ran this map by Joohan?

Do you really think this is that much of a stretch? Almost all of this territory is plains which are easy to cross, and the area that isn't is very sparsely populated and is mostly buffer for the areas i actually care about protecting.

Yeaaahhhh, I do. It wasn't until the Qin Dynasty in ~200 BCE that China's borders looked even vaguely this large. Unless this is a space-filling map displaying China's claims and not her control - but the amount of roads, cities, and fortresses on it gives lie to that.

[Orostan]

Do you really think this is that much of a stretch? Almost all of this territory is plains which are easy to cross, and the area that isn't is very sparsely populated and is mostly buffer for the areas i actually care about protecting.

Yeaaahhhh, I do. It wasn't until the Qin Dynasty in ~200 BCE that China's borders looked even vaguely this large. Unless this is a space-filling map displaying China's claims and not her control - but the amount of roads, cities, and fortresses on it gives lie to that.

The Qin dynasty didn't find it easy to get as big as it did, and broke apart very quickly after it's first emperor died. I have no evenly matched enemies yet, I have the best organized state, and I have every incentive to expand like this. I certainly have enough people to do it. If you can use rivers to go all the way from North Germany to Romania I can control territory that's a similar distance from my capitol and over much less hostile terrain.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Yeaaahhhh, I do. It wasn't until the Qin Dynasty in ~200 BCE that China's borders looked even vaguely this large. Unless this is a space-filling map displaying China's claims and not her control - but the amount of roads, cities, and fortresses on it gives lie to that.

The Qin dynasty didn't find it easy to get as big as it did, and broke apart very quickly after it's first emperor died. I have no evenly matched enemies yet, I have the best organized state, and I have every incentive to expand like this. I certainly have enough people to do it. If you can use rivers to go all the way from North Germany to Romania I can control territory that's a similar distance from my capitol and over much less hostile terrain.

Mm, doubt on a lot of this. Enemies don't need to be evenly matched to prevent expansion on every conceivable axis, and your main advantage militarily is stretched very thin across your forces.

"Best organized state." okay sure

Leaving aside the whataboutism, the Yellow River State is already engaging in massive labor costs when it comes to walls, roads, ships, and dams. China has people, sure, but not that many people. Aggressive military expansion to such a degree would have straight up depopulated China. If you want that much territory across open plains, you're going to have far worse problems than just revolts in short order.

[Orostan]

The Qin dynasty didn't find it easy to get as big as it did, and broke apart very quickly after it's first emperor died. I have no evenly matched enemies yet, I have the best organized state, and I have every incentive to expand like this. I certainly have enough people to do it. If you can use rivers to go all the way from North Germany to Romania I can control territory that's a similar distance from my capitol and over much less hostile terrain.

Mm, doubt on a lot of this. Enemies don't need to be evenly matched to prevent expansion on every conceivable axis, and your main advantage militarily is stretched very thin across your forces.

"Best organized state." okay sure

Leaving aside the whataboutism, the Yellow River State is already engaging in massive labor costs when it comes to walls, roads, ships, and dams. China has people, sure, but not that many people. Aggressive military expansion to such a degree would have straight up depopulated China. If you want that much territory across open plains, you're going to have far worse problems than just revolts in short order.

It's not whataboutism if I am asking for an equivalent standard. I don't see why you think expansion is so hard, I've made it clear that a lot of my military are only soldiers seasonally. I also didn't expand on "every conceivable axis" - I expanded south. That's where most of my real standing army of professional soldiers will be and where the government's focus is right now. I also haven't been building ships that are very large except for river trade, construction employs mostly local workers on a seasonal basis, and infrastructure construction is similar.

[G-Tech Corporation]

It's not whataboutism if I am asking for an equivalent standard. I don't see why you think expansion is so hard, I've made it clear that a lot of my military are only soldiers seasonally. I also didn't expand on "every conceivable axis" - I expanded south. That's where most of my real standing army of professional soldiers will be and where the government's focus is right now. I also haven't been building ships that are very large except for river trade, construction employs mostly local workers on a seasonal basis, and infrastructure construction is similar.

Fine, equivalent standard - less total distance, along natural transportation routes, across double the time period. Neh?

You expanded south, north, and east, on a front nearly 1500 km long. Like I said, larger than an equivalent dynasty in 3000 years time.

Seasonal soldiers will dilute any claims of having no enemies with parity even further. You've explicitly mentioned large ships used to conquer to the mouth of the Yangtze large enough to carry a hundred soldiers and siege ballistae - and making construction seasonal doesn't change the fact that you're using subsistence farmers or nomads, people who work year-round to not starve, to construct highways across thousands of kilometers, immense dams, and dozens of military fortresses. That China map is, frankly, ridiculous, and unjustified.

[Orostan]

It's not whataboutism if I am asking for an equivalent standard. I don't see why you think expansion is so hard, I've made it clear that a lot of my military are only soldiers seasonally. I also didn't expand on "every conceivable axis" - I expanded south. That's where most of my real standing army of professional soldiers will be and where the government's focus is right now. I also haven't been building ships that are very large except for river trade, construction employs mostly local workers on a seasonal basis, and infrastructure construction is similar.

Fine, equivalent standard - less total distance, along natural transportation routes, across double the time period. Neh?

You expanded south, north, and east, on a front nearly 1500 km long. Like I said, larger than an equivalent dynasty in 3000 years time.

Seasonal soldiers will dilute any claims of having no enemies with parity even further. You've explicitly mentioned large ships used to conquer to the mouth of the Yangtze large enough to carry a hundred soldiers and siege ballistae - and making construction seasonal doesn't change the fact that you're using subsistence farmers or nomads, people who work year-round to not starve, to construct highways across thousands of kilometers, immense dams, and dozens of military fortresses. That China map is, frankly, ridiculous, and unjustified.

99% of my expansion is in the south in the last five years, expanding as I have is very justified. Those large ships were produced in small numbers, those highways aren't all that big or complex, and those immense dams aren't so immense. Those forts also aren't particularly complex. Most labor in China is going to be occupied with newly established sectors of the economy and irrigation improvements along with town and city construction. If you want to argue that I am facing a labor shortage, which I am in many sectors of the economy, argue that I spend too much on building entire towns and cities.

[Joohan]

Good news G, I am now certain as to the Hibernian situation, and will spare the two of us weeks of debate.

Icedonia will recognize Byrne as the legitimate High King of Hibernia - that's right no strings attached! All I am asking for is a slight retcon of recent events - specifically round the coup itself. Instead of Byrne marching off to attack all his potential opponents after declaring the moot, we just RP the moot itself? All clan representatives are present, the imperial observer, and the Icedonian ambassador. If the vote swings your favor then Icedonia will respect their allies decision, and that will be the end of the matter. Sound fair?

[Joohan]

Fine, equivalent standard - less total distance, along natural transportation routes, across double the time period. Neh?

You expanded south, north, and east, on a front nearly 1500 km long. Like I said, larger than an equivalent dynasty in 3000 years time.

Seasonal soldiers will dilute any claims of having no enemies with parity even further. You've explicitly mentioned large ships used to conquer to the mouth of the Yangtze large enough to carry a hundred soldiers and siege ballistae - and making construction seasonal doesn't change the fact that you're using subsistence farmers or nomads, people who work year-round to not starve, to construct highways across thousands of kilometers, immense dams, and dozens of military fortresses. That China map is, frankly, ridiculous, and unjustified.

99% of my expansion is in the south in the last five years, expanding as I have is very justified. Those large ships were produced in small numbers, those highways aren't all that big or complex, and those immense dams aren't so immense. Those forts also aren't particularly complex. Most labor in China is going to be occupied with newly established sectors of the economy and irrigation improvements along with town and city construction. If you want to argue that I am facing a labor shortage, which I am in many sectors of the economy, argue that I spend too much on building entire towns and cities.

The south, you will note, happens to be very populated for this time period, and not merely by ignorant cavemen either, but by fairly developed set of advanced Neolithic communities who would not be so easily conquered or coerced into submitting to Chinese authority. G is correct, not only have you made a vast expansion in a very short amount of time, but you've done it in an area heavily populated by a relatively advanced people.

If your infrastructure programs are as meager as you say they are, than you certainly would not have the means by which to actually conquer these vast tracts of land - let alone govern them. In the making of maps, I ask that you color in only territory which you effectively control, not what you claim to or are actively trying to control.

[Orostan]

99% of my expansion is in the south in the last five years, expanding as I have is very justified. Those large ships were produced in small numbers, those highways aren't all that big or complex, and those immense dams aren't so immense. Those forts also aren't particularly complex. Most labor in China is going to be occupied with newly established sectors of the economy and irrigation improvements along with town and city construction. If you want to argue that I am facing a labor shortage, which I am in many sectors of the economy, argue that I spend too much on building entire towns and cities.

The south, you will note, happens to be very populated for this time period, and not merely by ignorant cavemen either, but by fairly developed set of advanced Neolithic communities who would not be so easily conquered or coerced into submitting to Chinese authority. G is correct, not only have you made a vast expansion in a very short amount of time, but you've done it in an area heavily populated by a relatively advanced people.

If your infrastructure programs are as meager as you say they are, than you certainly would not have the means by which to actually conquer these vast tracts of land - let alone govern them. In the making of maps, I ask that you color in only territory which you effectively control, not what you claim to or are actively trying to control.

Building a road doesn't require an incredible amount of labor. In past I've been told that it would be difficult for me to govern an area full of actual neolithic caveman, and that it would be easier to govern an area of city states and developed cultures. Now you're telling me that actually it is the opposite and areas more used to state-like governance would be harder to conquer.

How much territory do you think I should have?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Good news G, I am now certain as to the Hibernian situation, and will spare the two of us weeks of debate.

Icedonia will recognize Byrne as the legitimate High King of Hibernia - that's right no strings attached! All I am asking for is a slight retcon of recent events - specifically round the coup itself. Instead of Byrne marching off to attack all his potential opponents after declaring the moot, we just RP the moot itself? All clan representatives are present, the imperial observer, and the Icedonian ambassador. If the vote swings your favor then Icedonia will respect their allies decision, and that will be the end of the matter. Sound fair?

So, I'm totally fine with this. I should though, in good faith, note that the outcome is unlikely to be one you'll enjoy. The moot was called, aye, but part of the conspiracy was that the nobles adjudged to be unsupportive to Bryne's ascension, the four clans wedded to Icedonia, had their summons "lost". Part of the moot was Byrne receiving "word" that these clans did not recognize a Hibernian king, and had declared themselves vassals of Icedonia by right of might. They won't be at the moot, and if the Icedonian ambassador shows up, likely one of the first moves of the new King will be to expel said Icedonian ambassador under the premise of promoting sedition against the Hibernian state - since it would be implausible that the ambassador wasn't involved in this treason.

I'm sure the ambassador will protest, and whatnot, but a guilty man would do the same, and the narrative of creeping Icedonian influence undermining the Hibernian state plays well to clans concerned about just that.

[Joohan]

Well, Byrne really couldnt call himself king unless legally elected in a moot. In order for a moot to be legal, it would require all electors present. He wouldnt have much of a leg to stand on in terms of legitimacy if that were the case.

Spreading propaganda that the skeptical clans had sworn their service to Icedonia wouldnt make much sense either ( because why would it? ) and since everyone is so close, pretty much anyone could disprove such a claim by only walking a day away and actually speak with anyone of the so called rebellious clans.

You've nothing to fear by theirattendance, or even by the Icedonian ambassador. You're the one with the deck stacked in your favor remeber?

I'll set up the collab later tonight

[G-Tech Corporation]

Well, Byrne really couldnt call himself king unless legally elected in a moot. In order for a moot to be legal, it would require all electors present. He wouldnt have much of a leg to stand on in terms of legitimacy if that were the case.

Spreading propaganda that the skeptical clans had sworn their service to Icedonia wouldnt make much sense either ( because why would it? ) and since everyone is so close, pretty much anyone could disprove such a claim by only walking a day away and actually speak with anyone of the so called rebellious clans.

You've nothing to fear by theirattendance, or even by the Icedonian ambassador. You're the one with the deck stacked in your favor remeber?

I'll set up the collab later tonight

Legally elected by a vote of all electors, of course, of course. If members remove themselves from the electorate though, that's another matter. And a plurality is simple enough to arrange either way.

Why would it? I think you mean why wouldn't it. These are clans that, remember, favor Icedonian interests heavily. Hibernian kings aren't exactly an institution, nor is Hibernian identity, in truth. If these clans wish to ape Icedonian strength, and have strong ties to Icedonia, its pretty plausible that they might transfer their allegiance to Icedonia in a time of succession, given their previous allegiance was to Patrick as king, not necessarily to the institution herself. Not necessarily something people might have expected on the street, but something which will get knowing nods when posited, not confusion or skepticism.

Sure, messengers can be sent to hear what these clans have to say for themselves - but if you're placing the word of clans "in rebellion", who are already somewhat distrusted by those clans who aren't interested in Icedonia, against the word of Patrick Bryne, the former captain of the King's Own and established Hibernian patriot - not to mention the new king who said clans have a vested interest in not looking like fools for repudiating their decisions - that's a rough comparison for said clans. These clans, I assume, are going to state that they don't accept Bryne as their king, which is exactly what they would say if they were actually rising against the new king, neh?

[Joohan]

Well, Byrne really couldnt call himself king unless legally elected in a moot. In order for a moot to be legal, it would require all electors present. He wouldnt have much of a leg to stand on in terms of legitimacy if that were the case.

Spreading propaganda that the skeptical clans had sworn their service to Icedonia wouldnt make much sense either ( because why would it? ) and since everyone is so close, pretty much anyone could disprove such a claim by only walking a day away and actually speak with anyone of the so called rebellious clans.

You've nothing to fear by theirattendance, or even by the Icedonian ambassador. You're the one with the deck stacked in your favor remeber?

I'll set up the collab later tonight

Legally elected by a vote of all electors, of course, of course. If members remove themselves from the electorate though, that's another matter. And a plurality is simple enough to arrange either way.

Why would it? I think you mean why wouldn't it. These are clans that, remember, favor Icedonian interests heavily. Hibernian kings aren't exactly an institution, nor is Hibernian identity, in truth. If these clans wish to ape Icedonian strength, and have strong ties to Icedonia, its pretty plausible that they might transfer their allegiance to Icedonia in a time of succession, given their previous allegiance was to Patrick as king, not necessarily to the institution herself. Not necessarily something people might have expected on the street, but something which will get knowing nods when posited, not confusion or skepticism.

Sure, messengers can be sent to hear what these clans have to say for themselves - but if you're placing the word of clans "in rebellion", who are already somewhat distrusted by those clans who aren't interested in Icedonia, against the word of Patrick Bryne, the former captain of the King's Own and established Hibernian patriot - not to mention the new king who said clans have a vested interest in not looking like fools for repudiating their decisions - that's a rough comparison for said clans. These clans, I assume, are going to state that they don't accept Bryne as their king, which is exactly what they would say if they were actually rising against the new king, neh?

Icedonian influence is prevalent across the island, I dont know why it would be particularly strong among those particular clans - save for if they had some special industry which brought along Icedonian advisors.

Them up and joining Icedonia would be an extremely out of the blue thing - given how no side has ever even hinted at such a thing..

Regardless though, as they'll be attending the moot, that part about them supposedly rebelling will be retconned. As for what the skeptical clans might say, I cant yet say.

[UniversalCommons]

The south, you will note, happens to be very populated for this time period, and not merely by ignorant cavemen either, but by fairly developed set of advanced Neolithic communities who would not be so easily conquered or coerced into submitting to Chinese authority. G is correct, not only have you made a vast expansion in a very short amount of time, but you've done it in an area heavily populated by a relatively advanced people.

If your infrastructure programs are as meager as you say they are, than you certainly would not have the means by which to actually conquer these vast tracts of land - let alone govern them. In the making of maps, I ask that you color in only territory which you effectively control, not what you claim to or are actively trying to control.

Building a road doesn't require an incredible amount of labor. In past I've been told that it would be difficult for me to govern an area full of actual neolithic caveman, and that it would be easier to govern an area of city states and developed cultures. Now you're telling me that actually it is the opposite and areas more used to state-like governance would be harder to conquer.

How much territory do you think I should have?

Depends on the kind of road. If you are building quality Roman style roads that last centuries, then it takes time.

[Joohan]

Hey G, sorry I said I would get the collab up earlier. last two days have been pretty rough, having gotten a new boss.

you good for tonight though?

[Joohan]

Hey, im going to be going away for a work thing. Be back on Thursday.

[Bortslovakia]

Right, as soon as I'm good to go, all the busy shit comes up again. Post is WIP, but for G and Joohan's benefit.

1. Icedonian interests are strongest in smaller coastal settlements along the Irish Sea, and the north where Dusk Accord joint operations are fairly common. The interior is INCREDIBLY pro-Hibernian sovereignty, and even rather anti-Icedonian, since a lot of settlers there immigrated to Ireland specifically to escape Icedonia. The South is probably as pro-Imperial(pro-Imperial basically just meaning they're pretty alright with the Imperium, and will be skeptical about any Icedonian narratives of invasion) as it'll get, namely because of Breton trade and the whole fuck piracy thing. Brittany, it goes without saying, isn't siding against the Imperium even if power brokers there wanted to. It's mainland, which means it's vulnerable.

2. Many at the Moot would actually be supportive of Byrne specifically because they'd hope that voting him in would avoid a civil war. Diplomacy hasn't failed yet in most people's eyes, despite us all OOC gearing up for a struggle. His success, or failure, is not guaranteed. I may even just roll for it when the time comes (factoring in current events as modifiers of course).

3. Militarily Icedonia has more support in Ireland, but it would be a VERY unpopular war. Friendly reminder that the longer this goes on, the more pissed the general public will become. And the angrier they get, the more likely they are to lash out at both sides.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Right, as soon as I'm good to go, all the busy shit comes up again. Post is WIP, but for G and Joohan's benefit.

1. Icedonian interests are strongest in smaller coastal settlements along the Irish Sea, and the north where Dusk Accord joint operations are fairly common. The interior is INCREDIBLY pro-Hibernian sovereignty, and even rather anti-Icedonian, since a lot of settlers there immigrated to Ireland specifically to escape Icedonia. The South is probably as pro-Imperial(pro-Imperial basically just meaning they're pretty alright with the Imperium, and will be skeptical about any Icedonian narratives of invasion) as it'll get, namely because of Breton trade and the whole fuck piracy thing. Brittany, it goes without saying, isn't siding against the Imperium even if power brokers there wanted to. It's mainland, which means it's vulnerable.

2. Many at the Moot would actually be supportive of Byrne specifically because they'd hope that voting him in would avoid a civil war. Diplomacy hasn't failed yet in most people's eyes, despite us all OOC gearing up for a struggle. His success, or failure, is not guaranteed. I may even just roll for it when the time comes (factoring in current events as modifiers of course).

3. Militarily Icedonia has more support in Ireland, but it would be a VERY unpopular war. Friendly reminder that the longer this goes on, the more pissed the general public will become. And the angrier they get, the more likely they are to lash out at both sides.

Interesting, interesting. I had forgotten that the Armoricans colonies voted. Are those native Hibernians by and large?

[Bortslovakia]

Right, as soon as I'm good to go, all the busy shit comes up again. Post is WIP, but for G and Joohan's benefit.

1. Icedonian interests are strongest in smaller coastal settlements along the Irish Sea, and the north where Dusk Accord joint operations are fairly common. The interior is INCREDIBLY pro-Hibernian sovereignty, and even rather anti-Icedonian, since a lot of settlers there immigrated to Ireland specifically to escape Icedonia. The South is probably as pro-Imperial(pro-Imperial basically just meaning they're pretty alright with the Imperium, and will be skeptical about any Icedonian narratives of invasion) as it'll get, namely because of Breton trade and the whole fuck piracy thing. Brittany, it goes without saying, isn't siding against the Imperium even if power brokers there wanted to. It's mainland, which means it's vulnerable.

2. Many at the Moot would actually be supportive of Byrne specifically because they'd hope that voting him in would avoid a civil war. Diplomacy hasn't failed yet in most people's eyes, despite us all OOC gearing up for a struggle. His success, or failure, is not guaranteed. I may even just roll for it when the time comes (factoring in current events as modifiers of course).

3. Militarily Icedonia has more support in Ireland, but it would be a VERY unpopular war. Friendly reminder that the longer this goes on, the more pissed the general public will become. And the angrier they get, the more likely they are to lash out at both sides.

Interesting, interesting. I had forgotten that the Armoricans colonies voted. Are those native Hibernians by and large?

Kinda. It's a bit too early to see massive cultural blending, but I imagine the entire settled portion of the coast of France is rather cosmopolitan, with the native proto-Bretons and proto-French making up the bulk of the population. There's a solid mix of Imperials, Icedonians, Norse, and Hibernians spread throughout though, with the majority population varying based on who actually owns the colony. Hibernian towns obviously have more Hibernians, Imperial towns have more Imperials, etc

[G-Tech Corporation]

So, perhaps it is time for a new OOC thread to attract new people? I was considering posting, then realized only a sparse handful have posted in the last two weeks.