New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[G-Tech Corporation]

-snip-

when the tl;dr is longer than the original

That was a TL;DR of a dozen max-length posts

Though I would add the destruction of the Icedonian fleet in her entirety off Nevis, and how the dissolution of the Commonwealth changed the geopolitical calculation in the North Sea mightly

[Joohan]

when the tl;dr is longer than the original

That was a TL;DR of a dozen max-length posts

Though I would add the destruction of the Icedonian fleet in her entirety off Nevis, and how the dissolution of the Commonwealth changed the geopolitical calculation in the North Sea mightly

Hey, most of our sailors survived - just the boats were lost.

It was a bonding experience with our Hibernian brothers building those bad boys back up.

[Bortslovakia]

when the tl;dr is longer than the original

That was a TL;DR of a dozen max-length posts

Though I would add the destruction of the Icedonian fleet in her entirety off Nevis, and how the dissolution of the Commonwealth changed the geopolitical calculation in the North Sea mightly

Speaking of, what actually happened to Clara? Didn't see anything about her beyond shit hitting the fan and not fleeing.

[Alaroma]

That was a TL;DR of a dozen max-length posts

Though I would add the destruction of the Icedonian fleet in her entirety off Nevis, and how the dissolution of the Commonwealth changed the geopolitical calculation in the North Sea mightly

Speaking of, what actually happened to Clara? Didn't see anything about her beyond shit hitting the fan and not fleeing.

She’s a hermit in the Ethiopian highlands rn

[UniversalCommons]

Maybe she has made it to the Single Market to Mountain Cove where she is secretly having herbal tea with Bostwick.

[Bortslovakia]

Speaking of, what actually happened to Clara? Didn't see anything about her beyond shit hitting the fan and not fleeing.

She’s a hermit in the Ethiopian highlands rn

The fuck? How'd that happen?

[Alaroma]

She’s a hermit in the Ethiopian highlands rn

The fuck? How'd that happen?

I’m pulling your chain, but it’s not entirely detached from reality. Clara if she survived supposedly is traveling around, as a more humble personage.

[Joohan]

G, I just read your last post - and I see what you're trying to do. A primitive kind of inoculation, similar to how, in the 18th century, patients would be made to snort the ground dust of small pox scabs.

The problem however, is that the flux doesn't have any outward physical symptoms. No pustules, no scabs, hell it kills you too fast to even leave internal deformities ( save for some scarring in the kidney's ). Whatever that witch gave you in the bandages, it wasn't red flux, and your guard has cut himself for nothing.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Speaking of, what actually happened to Clara? Didn't see anything about her beyond shit hitting the fan and not fleeing.

If she’s still alive I imagine she’s maintaining the Norse cultural sphere. The absence of a state does not necessarily mean the dissolution of the civilisation.

If she’s still alive. I can easily imagine that by this point she isn’t, immortality or no.

[Bortslovakia]

The fuck? How'd that happen?

I’m pulling your chain, but it’s not entirely detached from reality. Clara if she survived supposedly is traveling around, as a more humble personage.

See but now we need to make it happen.

[Suriyanakhon]

Yeah, lots of genocide, sex slavery, all that good stuff.

Excuse me, you don't get to call us out like that, Mr. Copyright Infringement.

[G-Tech Corporation]

G, I just read your last post - and I see what you're trying to do. A primitive kind of inoculation, similar to how, in the 18th century, patients would be made to snort the ground dust of small pox scabs.

The problem however, is that the flux doesn't have any outward physical symptoms. No pustules, no scabs, hell it kills you too fast to even leave internal deformities ( save for some scarring in the kidney's ). Whatever that witch gave you in the bandages, it wasn't red flux, and your guard has cut himself for nothing.

Oh yes, quite - we've already been using variolation for smallpox for twenty odd years.

Ah, but you see, epidemiology dictates otherwise. At first, of course, I was puzzled as to how to reconcile a plague with extensive lethality, virulence, and no production of immunity with your expression that the Middle East is largely immune to it. In nature, such a disease kills before it produces anything like a categorical immunity in a populace. Only through burning out would a population survive, and you noted that even exposure to the Red Flux would leave the Sumerians perfectly fine, ruling out that option. Thus, a mystery. The only mechanism with a single pathogen that would produce such a combination of factors would be learned genetic abnormalities, like sickle cell anemia and a resistance to malaria, and that takes tens of thousands of generations to develop - far too long for there to be a meaningful genetic divergence between Sumerian populations and those in Europe.

But upon further thought, I found the reconciliation; phylogenetics. You are, I'm sure, familiar with viral variants. Everyone is, in this age of Covid. The plague, the "Blessing of the Lady of Lagash", is just such a variant. Indeed, in Sumeria, it must be extremely common - a variant of the Red Flux which produces milder, survivable symptoms, and crucially renders sufferers protected against its more dangerous cousin. The Red Flux is not a danger to the average denizen of the Middle East because they have already been exposed to this lesser plague, which, for convenience, I've named the Bloody Flux. Not a pleasant experience, but much preferable to the alternative. Thus arise social mores like the Witch of Nippur, a Mesopotamian healer who, amongst other things, conducts the ritual of exposure with children to protect them against the Red Flux, even if the people and the Witch herself don't necessarily understand what they are doing, merely that they are seeking a blessing through the ritual markings of the Mother, Maiden, and Crone, and using bindings from one who has already received the blessing.

Sumeria won't be affected by the Red Flux because her population has viral immunity from a less dangerous variant already having residency in the populace. It'll be touch and go, but if the Imperium can replicate this residency in enough numbers and the right places, it'll much decrease the danger the Red Flux poses to her people. I took the taboos and rituals from old writings on variolation in the Sudan, a classical pre-modern example, even down to the bartering for the cloth from the sick child.

Should be good fun, of course, getting people to intentionally get sick. But if anyone can do it, the Imperium can, given we've already established variolation as a mechanism good segments of the populace are familiar with.

Yeah, lots of genocide, sex slavery, all that good stuff.

Excuse me, you don't get to call us out like that, Mr. Copyright Infringement.

Arson, murder, jaywalking.

[Joohan]

G, I just read your last post - and I see what you're trying to do. A primitive kind of inoculation, similar to how, in the 18th century, patients would be made to snort the ground dust of small pox scabs.

The problem however, is that the flux doesn't have any outward physical symptoms. No pustules, no scabs, hell it kills you too fast to even leave internal deformities ( save for some scarring in the kidney's ). Whatever that witch gave you in the bandages, it wasn't red flux, and your guard has cut himself for nothing.

Oh yes, quite - we've already been using variolation for smallpox for twenty odd years.

Ah, but you see, epidemiology dictates otherwise. At first, of course, I was puzzled as to how to reconcile a plague with extensive lethality, virulence, and no production of immunity with your expression that the Middle East is largely immune to it. In nature, such a disease kills before it produces anything like a categorical immunity in a populace. Only through burning out would a population survive, and you noted that even exposure to the Red Flux would leave the Sumerians perfectly fine, ruling out that option. Thus, a mystery. The only mechanism with a single pathogen that would produce such a combination of factors would be learned genetic abnormalities, like sickle cell anemia and a resistance to malaria, and that takes tens of thousands of generations to develop - far too long for there to be a meaningful genetic divergence between Sumerian populations and those in Europe.

But upon further thought, I found the reconciliation; phylogenetics. You are, I'm sure, familiar with viral variants. Everyone is, in this age of Covid. The plague, the "Blessing of the Lady of Lagash", is just such a variant. Indeed, in Sumeria, it must be extremely common - a variant of the Red Flux which produces milder, survivable symptoms, and crucially renders sufferers protected against its more dangerous cousin. The Red Flux is not a danger to the average denizen of the Middle East because they have already been exposed to this lesser plague, which, for convenience, I've named the Bloody Flux. Not a pleasant experience, but much preferable to the alternative. Thus arise social mores like the Witch of Nippur, a Mesopotamian healer who, amongst other things, conducts the ritual of exposure with children to protect them against the Red Flux, even if the people and the Witch herself don't necessarily understand what they are doing, merely that they are seeking a blessing through the ritual markings of the Mother, Maiden, and Crone, and using bindings from one who has already received the blessing.

Sumeria won't be affected by the Red Flux because her population has viral immunity from a less dangerous variant already having residency in the populace. It'll be touch and go, but if the Imperium can replicate this residency in enough numbers and the right places, it'll much decrease the danger the Red Flux poses to her people. I took the taboos and rituals from old writings on variolation in the Sudan, a classical pre-modern example, even down to the bartering for the cloth from the sick child.

Should be good fun, of course, getting people to intentionally get sick. But if anyone can do it, the Imperium can, given we've already established variolation as a mechanism good segments of the populace are familiar with.

In order to immunize your people, you've, not only created an entirely new variant of the disease, but you've also ensured that it had the exact symptoms you would need in order harvest a vaccine? Never mind even all that, how Viktor even know that this was a variant of the Red flux when it had totally different symptoms?

As OP, I can't let you create an entirely new disease for your own convenience. Maybe your theory of there being a softer version of the flux is valid - but it would have largely the same symptoms of it's more lethal cousin ( no get out of jail free scabs or pustules ).

[UniversalCommons]

A few questions. If we get to the plague early with some of the herbs will it make it more likely to survive. Lets say between 24-48 hours. Would catching the plague early make any difference. Is there an incubation period where if we get to it, people are more likely to survive. This would be about early identification.

Also as we are interviewing people, we might began to catch there is more than one way to get the plague. Sex would be one of them, also blood. Would we be able to identify people who got the transmission through sex and trace it to the Temple of Eros or brothels on the docks for sailors. The blood part might be about putting some controls on butchering, tanning and the like. Safety precautions. The equation to AIDS as ways to catch the disease might be there. This would be reasons to wear gloves and other protective gear around cutting equipment in addition to masks.

[Suriyanakhon]

That was a TL;DR of a dozen max-length posts

Though I would add the destruction of the Icedonian fleet in her entirety off Nevis, and how the dissolution of the Commonwealth changed the geopolitical calculation in the North Sea mightly

Hey, most of our sailors survived - just the boats were lost.

It was a bonding experience with our Hibernian brothers building those bad boys back up.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Oh yes, quite - we've already been using variolation for smallpox for twenty odd years.

Ah, but you see, epidemiology dictates otherwise. At first, of course, I was puzzled as to how to reconcile a plague with extensive lethality, virulence, and no production of immunity with your expression that the Middle East is largely immune to it. In nature, such a disease kills before it produces anything like a categorical immunity in a populace. Only through burning out would a population survive, and you noted that even exposure to the Red Flux would leave the Sumerians perfectly fine, ruling out that option. Thus, a mystery. The only mechanism with a single pathogen that would produce such a combination of factors would be learned genetic abnormalities, like sickle cell anemia and a resistance to malaria, and that takes tens of thousands of generations to develop - far too long for there to be a meaningful genetic divergence between Sumerian populations and those in Europe.

But upon further thought, I found the reconciliation; phylogenetics. You are, I'm sure, familiar with viral variants. Everyone is, in this age of Covid. The plague, the "Blessing of the Lady of Lagash", is just such a variant. Indeed, in Sumeria, it must be extremely common - a variant of the Red Flux which produces milder, survivable symptoms, and crucially renders sufferers protected against its more dangerous cousin. The Red Flux is not a danger to the average denizen of the Middle East because they have already been exposed to this lesser plague, which, for convenience, I've named the Bloody Flux. Not a pleasant experience, but much preferable to the alternative. Thus arise social mores like the Witch of Nippur, a Mesopotamian healer who, amongst other things, conducts the ritual of exposure with children to protect them against the Red Flux, even if the people and the Witch herself don't necessarily understand what they are doing, merely that they are seeking a blessing through the ritual markings of the Mother, Maiden, and Crone, and using bindings from one who has already received the blessing.

Sumeria won't be affected by the Red Flux because her population has viral immunity from a less dangerous variant already having residency in the populace. It'll be touch and go, but if the Imperium can replicate this residency in enough numbers and the right places, it'll much decrease the danger the Red Flux poses to her people. I took the taboos and rituals from old writings on variolation in the Sudan, a classical pre-modern example, even down to the bartering for the cloth from the sick child.

Should be good fun, of course, getting people to intentionally get sick. But if anyone can do it, the Imperium can, given we've already established variolation as a mechanism good segments of the populace are familiar with.

In order to immunize your people, you've, not only created an entirely new variant of the disease, but you've also ensured that it had the exact symptoms you would need in order harvest a vaccine? Never mind even all that, how Viktor even know that this was a variant of the Red flux when it had totally different symptoms?

As OP, I can't let you create an entirely new disease for your own convenience. Maybe your theory of there being a softer version of the flux is valid - but it would have largely the same symptoms of it's more lethal cousin ( no get out of jail free scabs or pustules ).

Ah, but you see, it doesn't have different symptoms - that's exactly how it was recognized. The drop in liver function causing jaundice, the perspiration, the bloody urination as the kidneys are attacked, the diarrhea, the frothing phlegm being a viral vector - all there still. Just rather more reduced in severity, and ultimate lethality, exactly why the Sumerians survive. The buboes seemed like a logical addition, mainly because a disease which attacks systemically (as the Red Flux does) would likely afflict the lymphatic system as well. But I don't have any particular attachment to that. Sweat mixed with blood from ruptured skin blood vessels would also be a fine transmission vector, if you really hate buboes.

I'm not really creating the disease entirely for my convenience - yes, for use in this arc - but more because it explains how such a lethal disease could be hiding in a human populace without there, well, no longer being said populace. Without a less-lethal (hell, even much less lethal) variant, there wouldn't have been a Mesopotamia to speak of in the universe of New Civilizations, because any vaguely urbanized population would have been wiped out by said disease. Given I don't think we're going quite that alt-hist before the arrival of the Authors, this is filling a plothole.

[UniversalCommons]

We could end up with a few walled cities on land and lots of people filling up the islands in the Aegean with extreme precautions against people coming ashore. Islands are much more able to quarantine than cities on land. Rhodes would be the new capital and Crete would be completely overrun with people to the point where there are no more Cretans before we find the proper medication. We would end up attacking Sicily and seizing it and threatening Sardinia. We would control the seas.

It would be a fallback survival story. Then a reconquest.

[Joohan]

In order to immunize your people, you've, not only created an entirely new variant of the disease, but you've also ensured that it had the exact symptoms you would need in order harvest a vaccine? Never mind even all that, how Viktor even know that this was a variant of the Red flux when it had totally different symptoms?

As OP, I can't let you create an entirely new disease for your own convenience. Maybe your theory of there being a softer version of the flux is valid - but it would have largely the same symptoms of it's more lethal cousin ( no get out of jail free scabs or pustules ).

Ah, but you see, it doesn't have different symptoms - that's exactly how it was recognized. The drop in liver function causing jaundice, the perspiration, the bloody urination as the kidneys are attacked, the diarrhea, the frothing phlegm being a viral vector - all there still. Just rather more reduced in severity, and ultimate lethality, exactly why the Sumerians survive. The buboes seemed like a logical addition, mainly because a disease which attacks systemically (as the Red Flux does) would likely afflict the lymphatic system as well. But I don't have any particular attachment to that. Sweat mixed with blood from ruptured skin blood vessels would also be a fine transmission vector, if you really hate buboes.

I'm not really creating the disease entirely for my convenience - yes, for use in this arc - but more because it explains how such a lethal disease could be hiding in a human populace without there, well, no longer being said populace. Without a less-lethal (hell, even much less lethal) variant, there wouldn't have been a Mesopotamia to speak of in the universe of New Civilizations, because any vaguely urbanized population would have been wiped out by said disease. Given I don't think we're going quite that alt-hist before the arrival of the Authors, this is filling a plothole.

The fact that it also has pustules is then indicative of the possibility that it almost certainly has a myriad of other dissimilar symptoms. What Viktor did was, at best, a stab in the dark based upon the assumption that, because the two disease have some similar symptoms, they must be genetically related.

If you felt that there was a pothole present because of the nature of the disease, then I'd have preferred you come to me first about it, as opposed to making an entirely new disease of your own volition. I'm willing to add a less lethal variant of the disease so that immunization will eventually take hold over a portion of Europe, but it won't have any physical deformities which would allow for primitive inoculation.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ah, but you see, it doesn't have different symptoms - that's exactly how it was recognized. The drop in liver function causing jaundice, the perspiration, the bloody urination as the kidneys are attacked, the diarrhea, the frothing phlegm being a viral vector - all there still. Just rather more reduced in severity, and ultimate lethality, exactly why the Sumerians survive. The buboes seemed like a logical addition, mainly because a disease which attacks systemically (as the Red Flux does) would likely afflict the lymphatic system as well. But I don't have any particular attachment to that. Sweat mixed with blood from ruptured skin blood vessels would also be a fine transmission vector, if you really hate buboes.

I'm not really creating the disease entirely for my convenience - yes, for use in this arc - but more because it explains how such a lethal disease could be hiding in a human populace without there, well, no longer being said populace. Without a less-lethal (hell, even much less lethal) variant, there wouldn't have been a Mesopotamia to speak of in the universe of New Civilizations, because any vaguely urbanized population would have been wiped out by said disease. Given I don't think we're going quite that alt-hist before the arrival of the Authors, this is filling a plothole.

The fact that it also has pustules is then indicative of the possibility that it almost certainly has a myriad of other dissimilar symptoms. What Viktor did was, at best, a stab in the dark based upon the assumption that, because the two disease have some similar symptoms, they must be genetically related.

If you felt that there was a pothole present because of the nature of the disease, then I'd have preferred you come to me first about it, as opposed to making an entirely new disease of your own volition. I'm willing to add a less lethal variant of the disease so that immunization will eventually take hold over a portion of Europe, but it won't have any physical deformities which would allow for primitive inoculation.

Mm, well, not exactly. Systemic viral infections will oftentimes manifest as lymphatic abnormalities - indeed oftentimes how one diagnoses low level viral infections is via swollen lymph nodes, which the fluid retention implicit in both kidney and liver failures would only exacerbate.

But anyway, as I said, I'm not married to buboes. I was simply trying to theorize how the Red Flux (and thus viral variants) might actually spread. You note that the Red Flux spreads swiftly, but nothing about her symptoms would indicate such. A disease afflicting the endocrine system and internal organs would be most conventionally concentrated in, well, the blood, and bloodborne diseases are notorious for not really being communicable. Unless you're hypothesizing a zoonotic transmission vector, but I assumed that that wasn't the case, given you noted Commons' method of pigeon extermination wouldn't work here.

How then is the Red Flux actually spread? Bodily fluids alone won't carry the virus, unless, as I've noted in previous posts, those fluids are contaminated from ruptured connections to the circulatory system. Vomit, bleeding, and diarrhea, even if highly infectious, don't make for a highly infectious disease, primarily due to their ease of recognition and intrinsic human avoidance of such. Fluid discharged by weeping sores or open wounds could get the job done in terms of infectivity, but then there's an obvious viral concentration source for variolation, which you don't want to happen, no? Blood to blood transfer would absolutely work. We do kinda lack either needles or transfusions to be a vector though, unless Commons has done something wacky I didn't notice.

[Shepherd isle]

Perhaps it could be some sort of animal that spreads it that is practically impossible to exterminate. For example African cockroaches or mosquitos

[UniversalCommons]

The fact that it also has pustules is then indicative of the possibility that it almost certainly has a myriad of other dissimilar symptoms. What Viktor did was, at best, a stab in the dark based upon the assumption that, because the two disease have some similar symptoms, they must be genetically related.

If you felt that there was a pothole present because of the nature of the disease, then I'd have preferred you come to me first about it, as opposed to making an entirely new disease of your own volition. I'm willing to add a less lethal variant of the disease so that immunization will eventually take hold over a portion of Europe, but it won't have any physical deformities which would allow for primitive inoculation.

Mm, well, not exactly. Systemic viral infections will oftentimes manifest as lymphatic abnormalities - indeed oftentimes how one diagnoses low level viral infections is via swollen lymph nodes, which the fluid retention implicit in both kidney and liver failures would only exacerbate.

But anyway, as I said, I'm not married to buboes. I was simply trying to theorize how the Red Flux (and thus viral variants) might actually spread. You note that the Red Flux spreads swiftly, but nothing about her symptoms would indicate such. A disease afflicting the endocrine system and internal organs would be most conventionally concentrated in, well, the blood, and bloodborne diseases are notorious for not really being communicable. Unless you're hypothesizing a zoonotic transmission vector, but I assumed that that wasn't the case, given you noted Commons' method of pigeon extermination wouldn't work here.

How then is the Red Flux actually spread? Bodily fluids alone won't carry the virus, unless, as I've noted in previous posts, those fluids are contaminated from ruptured connections to the circulatory system. Vomit, bleeding, and diarrhea, even if highly infectious, don't make for a highly infectious disease, primarily due to their ease of recognition and intrinsic human avoidance of such. Fluid discharged by weeping sores or open wounds could get the job done in terms of infectivity, but then there's an obvious viral concentration source for variolation, which you don't want to happen, no? Blood to blood transfer would absolutely work. We do kinda lack either needles or transfusions to be a vector though, unless Commons has done something wacky I didn't notice.

There are a few other ways the virus could spread. People could touch food and then eat it. It could spread through the dinner table. You would have to have a vector where lots of people could catch it. Thus you have to wash food and meat. There is also sex. The first man who died was laying down with prostitutes. Three of them. You cough on your hands then you touch a person. You wipe your nose and touch the barley. You cough on your hands then you touch the cooked chicken being shared by your family. They take pieces and put it on their flat bread. You lay down with your wife after a long hard day. Then you lay down with the courier from Abdera... People do things which they don't talk about.

Hepatitis A spreads through food. People don't have an idea to clean food the way we do. Also a lot of zoonotic transmission occurs through eating animals. The butcher could catch it, cut himself with a knife. It gets into your beef. We could have a wandering cook worse than Typhoid Mary.

I was going to add another fragment from Erra where he gets jealous when he sees a man lay down with the Temple Priestess of Ishtar, marks her as his own and kills the man. I have not done it yet.

[Alaroma]

Need to introduce theater eventually. I should begin with plays going over Bible stories.

[Fossia]

Need to introduce theater eventually. I should begin with plays going over Bible stories.

Apror, even in RP form he can't resist his JW tendenancies

[G-Tech Corporation]

There are a few other ways the virus could spread. People could touch food and then eat it. It could spread through the dinner table. You would have to have a vector where lots of people could catch it. Thus you have to wash food and meat. There is also sex. The first man who died was laying down with prostitutes. Three of them. You cough on your hands then you touch a person. You wipe your nose and touch the barley. You cough on your hands then you touch the cooked chicken being shared by your family. They take pieces and put it on their flat bread. You lay down with your wife after a long hard day. Then you lay down with the courier from Abdera... People do things which they don't talk about.

Sure, if it is a respiratory disease, it will spread through the nose, the mouth - but it doesn't effect the respiratory system that we know of. Ditto a sexually transmitted disease - that's actually more likely, since you can get bloodborne diseases that way pretty easily. But sexually transmitted diseases don't exactly propagate at speed.

Hepatitis A spreads through food. People don't have an idea to clean food the way we do. Also a lot of zoonotic transmission occurs through eating animals. The butcher could catch it, cut himself with a knife. It gets into your beef. We could have a wandering cook worse than Typhoid Mary.

The plague could certainly spread through food if it was zoonotic, and asymptomatic in animals. But unless it jumps from humans to animals, only those areas with large animal markets are really at risk, and I don't think Joohan is going for such a limited source of risk.

[UniversalCommons]

There are a few other ways the virus could spread. People could touch food and then eat it. It could spread through the dinner table. You would have to have a vector where lots of people could catch it. Thus you have to wash food and meat. There is also sex. The first man who died was laying down with prostitutes. Three of them. You cough on your hands then you touch a person. You wipe your nose and touch the barley. You cough on your hands then you touch the cooked chicken being shared by your family. They take pieces and put it on their flat bread. You lay down with your wife after a long hard day. Then you lay down with the courier from Abdera... People do things which they don't talk about.

Sure, if it is a respiratory disease, it will spread through the nose, the mouth - but it doesn't effect the respiratory system that we know of. Ditto a sexually transmitted disease - that's actually more likely, since you can get bloodborne diseases that way pretty easily. But sexually transmitted diseases don't exactly propagate at speed.

Hepatitis A spreads through food. People don't have an idea to clean food the way we do. Also a lot of zoonotic transmission occurs through eating animals. The butcher could catch it, cut himself with a knife. It gets into your beef. We could have a wandering cook worse than Typhoid Mary.

The plague could certainly spread through food if it was zoonotic, and asymptomatic in animals. But unless it jumps from humans to animals, only those areas with large animal markets are really at risk, and I don't think Joohan is going for such a limited source of risk.

Or it could go through multiple channels, food, sex, and blood at the same time. It would appear to propagate fast because it would be caught a variety of ways.