New Civilizations ( world building and new era discussion )

[Plzen]

I honestly see the Northern mercenaries fighting for the Imperium as being pretty loyal to the Imperium - at least, the abstract idea of the Imperium, if not necessarily its current or future leadership. On the flip side, I very much doubt the Imperium’s ability to mollify occupied Commonwealth territory.

I suspect that in terms of community identity and loyalties, if anything the losses and bloodshed would have entrenched people further towards whichever side they fought for - and for the mercenaries, that side isn’t Scandinavia.

Think about it from the perspective of the Imperium. Either 1) their cause was just and the Commonwealth deserved to be fought against, or 2) their deaths and sacrifices did nothing but promote more suffering and they will go down in the wrong side of history.

I pity any ideologue that tries to sell their soldiers (2). Human beings have an amazing capability to retroactively justify action they took for their own selfish reasons.

[Joohan]

I honestly see the Northern mercenaries fighting for the Imperium as being pretty loyal to the Imperium - at least, the abstract idea of the Imperium, if not necessarily its current or future leadership. On the flip side, I very much doubt the Imperium’s ability to mollify occupied Commonwealth territory.

I suspect that in terms of community identity and loyalties, if anything the losses and bloodshed would have entrenched people further towards whichever side they fought for - and for the mercenaries, that side isn’t Scandinavia.

Think about it from the perspective of the Imperium. Either 1) their cause was just and the Commonwealth deserved to be fought against, or 2) their deaths and sacrifices did nothing but promote more suffering and they will go down in the wrong side of history.

I pity any ideologue that tries to sell their soldiers (2).

were there many northmen who were loyal to the Imperium during the war?

[Plzen]

were there many northmen who were loyal to the Imperium during the war?

I can’t imagine that there were that many, and the dominant social atmosphere would be pretty hostile. Still, since the Imperium now sits on a fifth of the former Commonwealth’s population I can definitely imagine there being enough collaborators and the like to form a couple military units out of.

[New Arcadius]

So did we begin or something?

If so, I'll write a post soon.

[G-Tech Corporation]

One minor note I should add for your post Joohan: a defensive alliance was made with the Kindreds. Men invading and raiding her lands is precisely the sort of thing that would trigger said alliance. I don’t think you have to worry about the Kindreds migrating south - but neither would I worry about men coming from further north. They’ll be either corpses, or integrated, or wisely given the Kindreds a wide berth once they heard rumors of what happened to other raiders.

[Joohan]

One minor note I should add for your post Joohan: a defensive alliance was made with the Kindreds. Men invading and raiding her lands is precisely the sort of thing that would trigger said alliance. I don’t think you have to worry about the Kindreds migrating south - but neither would I worry about men coming from further north. They’ll be either corpses, or integrated, or wisely given the Kindreds a wide berth once they heard rumors of what happened to other raiders.

Was there? I dont ever recall an alliance being made between the Imperium and the kindred. ICly. I remeber that OOC, we understood that should Icedonia ever return to attack or force submission onto the kindred that that would trigger a response from the Imperium... but that's not exactly a military alliance. I dont remeber the Imperium swearing that they'd deploy to fight the kindreds inter-tribal conflicts - which would be a very strange thing to do for a people who've been released from their oaths.

[G-Tech Corporation]

One minor note I should add for your post Joohan: a defensive alliance was made with the Kindreds. Men invading and raiding her lands is precisely the sort of thing that would trigger said alliance. I don’t think you have to worry about the Kindreds migrating south - but neither would I worry about men coming from further north. They’ll be either corpses, or integrated, or wisely given the Kindreds a wide berth once they heard rumors of what happened to other raiders.

Was there? I dont ever recall an alliance being made between the Imperium and the kindred. ICly. I remeber that OOC, we understood that should Icedonia ever return to attack or force submission onto the kindred that that would trigger a response from the Imperium... but that's not exactly a military alliance. I dont remeber the Imperium swearing that they'd deploy to fight the kindreds inter-tribal conflicts - which would be a very strange thing to do for a people who've been released from their oaths.

Certainly so. After all - the original purpose of the military alliance was to protect the Kindreds from Norse slavers, not concern itself with Icedonia at all. The idea about protecting them from Icedonian conquest was only necessary after, yknow, Icedonian conquest was attempted. The generalized idea of alliance would certainly extent to arbitrary tribes A and B - even excepting, for the moment, that the Kindreds couldn't easily defend themselves with imported weapons and trainers. If anything, I would hazard a guess that the Kindreds have been expanding during this drought, tribes seeing their prosperity offering very favorable marriage alliances to gain access to the disciplined warriors, food infrastructure, and trade links the Kindreds enjoy.

[Joohan]

Was there? I dont ever recall an alliance being made between the Imperium and the kindred. ICly. I remeber that OOC, we understood that should Icedonia ever return to attack or force submission onto the kindred that that would trigger a response from the Imperium... but that's not exactly a military alliance. I dont remeber the Imperium swearing that they'd deploy to fight the kindreds inter-tribal conflicts - which would be a very strange thing to do for a people who've been released from their oaths.

Certainly so. After all - the original purpose of the military alliance was to protect the Kindreds from Norse slavers, not concern itself with Icedonia at all. The idea about protecting them from Icedonian conquest was only necessary after, yknow, Icedonian conquest was attempted. The generalized idea of alliance would certainly extent to arbitrary tribes A and B - even excepting, for the moment, that the Kindreds couldn't easily defend themselves with imported weapons and trainers. If anything, I would hazard a guess that the Kindreds have been expanding during this drought, tribes seeing their prosperity offering very favorable marriage alliances to gain access to the disciplined warriors, food infrastructure, and trade links the Kindreds enjoy.

A task that was then taken up by Icedonia, I recall that being a central part of the peace agreement that. With Icedonia now taking up the role of anti-piracy in the area, and the withdrawal of military units from Nevis ( save for the chapel guard ), the Imperium now no longer has any need to protect their former allies. Likewise, with their being released from their oaths following the war, the Imperiums obligations to them would need to be redefined - now that they are not helping in any capacity to prevent piracy for the Imperium, they dont really have a pressing need to fight their wars for them anymore.

Also, you will recall that weapons and personnel not needed to secure the chapel in Nevis are not allowed to pass the joint port on the Haven., for obvious reasons. Not that it would matter of course, as they were doomed the moment rivers started drying up across the isle. Food was one factor that drove the migrations southward, but it was a lack of drinking water more than anything. Without access to a sample amounts of drinking water, an alliance at a time like this means nothing.

[G-Tech Corporation]

A task that was then taken up by Icedonia, I recall that being a central part of the peace agreement that. With Icedonia now taking up the role of anti-piracy in the area, and the withdrawal of military units from Nevis ( save for the chapel guard ), the Imperium now no longer has any need to protect their former allies. Likewise, with their being released from their oaths following the war, the Imperiums obligations to them would need to be redefined - now that they are not helping in any capacity to prevent piracy for the Imperium, they dont really have a pressing need to fight their wars for them anymore.

Also, you will recall that weapons and personnel not needed to secure the chapel in Nevis are not allowed to pass the joint port on the Haven., for obvious reasons. Not that it would matter of course, as they were doomed the moment rivers started drying up across the isle. Food was one factor that drove the migrations southward, but it was a lack of drinking water more than anything. Without access to a sample amounts of drinking water, an alliance at a time like this means nothing.

Hm, no, that doesn't sound quite right. I certainly have no record of some of those details, ICly or OOCly. To leave Icedonia, the butcher of their brothers and fathers, in possession of the role of protection to the Kindreds, would not have been agreed by the Imperium. Neither would the idea of her taking up the role of anti-piracy operations, for she had no fleet to protect their shores at that juncture. Certainly those of the Kindreds who wished it were released from their oaths, and Nevis was declared demilitarized, save for the guards of the embassy - but that is all I recall was agreed, aside from the cessation of hostilities. It does not do to have an embassy-port as a source of weapons, but the coastline the Kindreds command has more than one point where men and weapons may come ashore.

If your concern is that the people of the Kindreds would have wanted for water, that I doubt. Indeed, my seventh post in this RP was about the Imperium sinking a pump-well for drinking water and irrigation, and that is a matter of infrastructure that would have been easily extended to the people of the Kindreds - perhaps even before the drought, but certainly within her time of trouble.

were there many northmen who were loyal to the Imperium during the war?

I can’t imagine that there were that many, and the dominant social atmosphere would be pretty hostile. Still, since the Imperium now sits on a fifth of the former Commonwealth’s population I can definitely imagine there being enough collaborators and the like to form a couple military units out of.

There was also, theoretically, the fact of Orson's character looking to stage a revolt and establish Sweden as an independent pro-Imperial power, in concord with Monroe's courtship of those aspects of the Commonwealth who preferred trade to war. But none of those matters ever actually had a determined effect, to my knowledge.

[Joohan]

Hm, no, that doesn't sound quite right. I certainly have no record of some of those details, ICly or OOCly. To leave Icedonia, the butcher of their brothers and fathers, in possession of the role of protection to the Kindreds, would not have been agreed by the Imperium. Neither would the idea of her taking up the role of anti-piracy operations, for she had no fleet to protect their shores at that juncture. Certainly those of the Kindreds who wished it were released from their oaths, and Nevis was declared demilitarized, save for the guards of the embassy - but that is all I recall was agreed, aside from the cessation of hostilities. It does not do to have an embassy-port as a source of weapons, but the coastline the Kindreds command has more than one point where men and weapons may come ashore.

I seem to recall that being one of the things which sealed the peace treaty, that being, you leave and we take up your mission to fend off pirates on our eastern seaboard. I didn't say that we were the protectors of the kindred, no no, merely that we would help fulfill the intended task of the Imperial mission there. Rebuilding the fleet wouldn't have been too great a difficulty, as a most of our sailors survived and had beached already as you recall.

As for the smuggling of weapons and personnel, this wouldn't be all to difficult to overcome really. practically the entire coastline from the Haven to about Skegness is very shallow and muddy beaches, that would make off loading very visible and very difficult. Beyond Skegness, you're quite a distance out, but you've plenty more sites which are more suited beach heads. Course, our boy's in the port would know that, and with just a few boats and conservative patrolling, we'd be able to apprehend or drive off any would be arm's smugglers or mercenaries. Thrown in a few locals and fishermen on the pay roll to keep an eye out, and to tell us all the viable routes from beachheads to forest paths, I'd say most any criminal smuggling operation wouldn't stand a chance.

If your concern is that the people of the Kindreds would have wanted for water, that I doubt. Indeed, my seventh post in this RP was about the Imperium sinking a pump-well for drinking water and irrigation, and that is a matter of infrastructure that would have been easily extended to the people of the Kindreds - perhaps even before the drought, but certainly within her time of trouble.

Are you referring to this segment in your sixth post?:

" I then set to work on another project I had decided would be wise; irrigation channels. There was a vast lake, at least several miles across, which was fed by a glacier barely visible to the north of Kniepper. With a village this small and only a few dozen acres under use for agriculture, it would feed our thirst for water until the end of time. Working closely with Peter and other men of the tribe, I made the first shovel, a crude instrument but effective, wrought tin-bronze to prevent bending. For a week and more we worked, cutting a channel down from the hill and sealing it with stone-brick and a lime mortar derived from the mineral output of a stream near Mara I had asked be brought by one of the regular traders from the great city. By the time the first snow began to fall we were ready for the next spring, and sluices of ceramic pottery could control the flow of water to the fallow well-fertilized fields. "

Downhill irrigation it seems... not so much pump wells

[Joohan]

tryna have OOC up by tonight

[UniversalCommons]

Tried to do an Egyptian Honey Trap where one of the scholars gets controlled in the interests of Egypt. It is one of the oldest espionage tricks. Wanted to show that messing around with some of the larger existing powers often has a different outcome than expected.

[Empire of Techkotal]

So we can post now or not?

[Orostan]

So we can post now or not?

Yes, we can.

[Suriyanakhon]

Could someone provide me a rundown on the Indian city-states? Like their form of government, culture, religion, etc.?

[Orostan]

Could someone provide me a rundown on the Indian city-states? Like their form of government, culture, religion, etc.?

They’re dominated by the Indus River valley civilization and are fairly advanced. We don’t actually know too much about them as their language has never been translated, but I am sure you can find plenty of information online.

There have been authors in the Indus before so there is probably a bit more war and technology around. The city states there are also trading with Sumeria, another advanced culture.

[UniversalCommons]

There is an author civilization in Harappa who had been conquering his neighbors. We had a small school there which is being debated. The author developed some warfare capabilities, elephants, bow men and spear men. I introduced some basic exercises into the population as well as some medicine. This should give them an edge in survivability on the battlefield. I would imagine he has conquered quite a few of his neighbors. I also introduced a trader name Arjun who has connections for trade in the marketplace of Ur.

Below Harappa is Mohenjodaro. Harappa and Mohenjodara are the two large cities in the Indus valley.

There is something interesting. Since the 2nd Millenium BC, the Vedic texts were transferred orally via mnemonic techniques. The early mantras may have been part of oral transmission. People from India view their culture as starting 7000-8000 years ago. This is not the mainstream view outside of India. Many believe the Bhagavad Gita starts at about 3000 b.c. so there should be some interesting oral and philosophical ideas starting to take root in India at this point.

In this context, the writing down of the Vedas and other oral traditions would start 1500 years earlier have different context and translation. The Vedas were written down around 1500 b.c.

[Joohan]

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