A Troubled World [OOC - OPEN]

[Sarderia]

In the IC thread

Ah, thanks

Urwelcome

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Regardless, I am writing two topics in my IC draft now: liberating Korea and the 2020 election.

[Minskiev]

Isn’t the premise that the US is quickly being dethroned as the world power?

[Sarderia]

Isn’t the premise that the US is quickly being dethroned as the world power?

The US is slowly weakening. However, it could still level any country in the world if it wishes so - no country has reached the level of influence the US currently posess. And certainly not Japan.

You still haven't responded to my argument though.

[Minskiev]

Oh boy, this is a big one.

I’m going to address your last point first, since I know more about it than the first point. Please, explain to me how, when OP questioned your history, and I joined in, on topic, and then after I gave a substantial argument debunking your history and points, you then proceeded to, instead of refuting my claims, attack my lore, which is exactly what a tu quoque logical fallacy is, but instead I’m the one shifting the focus. The original topic was your history, and I argued about your history. And then, you shifted it onto my history, not me. There’s no way that I shifted the argument over, and you didn’t.

For your point about Northern Ireland, I’ll say this. While the Japanese didn’t treat the Koreans so nicely, do you see South Korean-Japanese tensions over their past? No, you do not. And of course they weren’t under Japanese occupation as long, so wouldn’t that mean less culture removal, and suffering? Less tension? Strange point you’re making with the first argument, and your second argument is simply incorrect and distorted.

[Sarderia]

Oh boy, this is a big one.

I’m going to address your last point first, since I know more about it than the first point. Please, explain to me how, when OP questioned your history, and I joined in, on topic, and then after I gave a substantial argument debunking your history and points, you then proceeded to, instead of refuting my claims, attack my lore, which is exactly what a tu quoque logical fallacy is, but instead I’m the one shifting the focus. The original topic was your history, and I argued about your history. And then, you shifted it onto my history, not me. There’s no way that I shifted the argument over, and you didn’t.

For your point about Northern Ireland, I’ll say this. While the Japanese didn’t treat the Koreans so nicely, do you see South Korean-Japanese tensions over their past? No, you do not. And of course they weren’t under Japanese occupation as long, so wouldn’t that mean less culture removal, and suffering? Less tension? Strange point you’re making with the first argument, and your second argument is simply incorrect and distorted.

1. I accept that your point regarding the Great Depression, WW1 etc is correct, so I changed it subsequently. On the matter of OP scrutiny it's because the OP are loath to give me Canada, which would make the US even a larger superpower (thus contradicting the premise) even though the OP accepted my argument about how USA could win the War of 1812. So, there is no "logical fallacy" there. I am pointing at the OP because of their liberal position regarding scrutinizing people's apps: the OP seemed to not accept USA having Canada (even though there's a historical precedent for that), but is okay with Japan having South Korea (which makes no sense whatsoever).

2. There is still Korean-Japanese tensions about their past: an article from Japan Times, War reparations dispute between Japan and SK, Dokdo/Takeshima conflict to name a few. There's so much more that I havent mentioned. And consider all of that happened while both countries are practically partners, received big US money, and relatively peaceful. I can't imagine how a Japanese occupation would blow things beyond measure.

EDIT: I am going to change one thing in my history: US gave Europe Marshall Plan, but didn't give help to Japan post-WW2 to rebulid their infrastructure. Japan's economy should be significantly lower in this RP than IRL.

[Minskiev]

Okay, your point on the relations is fair, and valid. However, that is in the real world. If an upset South Korea would bring about great instability, would we not do our best to calm them down, and compensate? Lack of proper compensation is what caused those disputes, and the sour relations.

Also, OP doesn’t want a stronger US, because that’s directly opposing the premise. They do, however, want a stronger Japan, as Japan is a major player in the global game. That’s why I didn’t pick the US, but the second-strongest Pro-West country. However, I am starting to question that Pro-West stance.

[Sarderia]

Okay, your point on the relations is fair, and valid. However, that is in the real world. If an upset South Korea would bring about great instability, would we not do our best to calm them down, and compensate? Lack of proper compensation is what caused those disputes, and the sour relations.

Also, OP doesn’t want a stronger US, because that’s directly opposing the premise. They do, however, want a stronger Japan, as Japan is a major player in the global game. That’s why I didn’t pick the US, but the second-strongest Pro-West country. However, I am starting to question that Pro-West stance.

Well then, it is a fallacy since occupation itself is a direct opposite of compensation. By occupying South Korea you deny Koreans of an independent state, thereby continuing Japan's colonization (regardless of however much "freedom" you gave SK). I also would like to point out that Japan is very much should be similar to Malaysia or Phillipines economy IRL (and not a major player in the global game) because the US didn't aid Japan during post-WW2 years. You could be communist if you want. In my opinion Mexico and China is more positioned to take up the "superpower" mantel.

EDIT: I also want to count Iraq-Jordan and Pilipinas-Malaya, which should be the replacement of Japan economically-wise in this RP. Those states enjoy greater economic growth than the US, and is much better positioned to advance into a global power.

[The Kingdom of Denmark]

Hold on, so I can't have anything else? Okay, so first i wanted to occupy Germany Czech Republic, Poland Scandinavia Finland the baltic states and Iceland+Greenland. Then Serbia-Macedonia encouraged me to reduce it down to Denmark, Norway, Iceland and Greenland. A while later I was told I had to reduce the number of people I had and military because "my territory did not match my population. I agreed, but only if I could also occupy Sweden {Additionally}. And now I am being told that I can't have Greenland, Norway, Sweden, and Iceland? I don't understand!

Because something was written in a way that was very confusing to me, now I can't even have half of my claimed territory?!

I was one of the first to apply! You can ask Serbia Macedonia, he was the one who approved me and made me a deal. Plus, if it was in my history, how come it is now being revealed as unknown?

Hmmm.

I think that you can take Norway, Iceland, Greenland and the southwest Swedish coast.

I assumed that it was only Denmark because of the location. We wanted the IRL equivalents of your territory, not what you call the conglomeration of the territory or the general region it’s in.

fine. I am absolutely outraged with this, but I guess I'll have to settle with it.

[Minskiev]

China is a valid argument for world power, but Mexico?! Now that is a funny joke. Let me guess, Canada as well?

Also, I wouldn’t say it’s a direct opposite. Normally, it’s an opposite, yes, but it’s possible to compensate nation X by letting them be annexed into nation Y. Is it obscure? Yes. Possible? Yes.

However, you may bring up the point that Korea didn’t want to be annexed into Japan. And that is true. However, we have given them plenty of autonomy, and we have left their culture and people alone, so honestly, it’s more like a personal union, rather than a territory of Japan.

And finally, you have a fair point about not boosting our economy. Who am I to say what the US did when you’re the US? However, since you didn’t subsidize me, I suppose Japan would have been a founding member of ASEAN. Your occupation of us would also have made our culture like the Japan IOTL, and so I don’t really see too much of a difference between the RP Japan and the IOTL Japan, bar border changes and less of an alliance between SK, Japan, and the US.

Alright Denmark, you’re outraged with not being able to have the CZECH REPUBLIC? That’s dumber than assuming Sweden hasn’t also militarized more and expanded more to counter the Danish threat.

Okay, your reduced-population for Sweden deal is absurd. You had, what, 2 billion people in DENMARK? And now you want land to be reasonable? How do we know you didn’t intentionally make a dumb population size so you could swap it for land, knowing that you’d benefit out of it?

[Sarderia]

Well, Mexico did say their development level is similar to Spain/Italy in this RP so I don't see why not. Plus they have California and Nevada which is prime mineral deposit in North America. If Mexico doesn't become embroiled in civil wars etc. and maintained a stable, non-corrupt government then I would very much agree Mexico becoming the next superpower.

Regarding Japan's relations to Korea it may be plausible, but Korea is still under Japanese rule, so there would be severe repercussions and retaliations by Korean separatists. You can't really change anything about this since Korea has a history becoming fiercely independent against Chinese dynasties rule and Japanese shogunate rule. And I'd point out that Japan becoming economically much lower results in more people unsatisfied in Korea, which would surely prolong conflict (seriously all they had to do is declare independence and enjoy US money).

Culture-wise not so much different. However economically-wise it would be very different, there wouldn't be Mitsubishi or Toyota estabilished as massive global companies since US aid to the Japanese government sponsored Japan's economic miracle. I'd also want to point out that ASEAN is "Association of South East Asian Nations" and Japan is not located anywhere near SE Asia.

[Sarderia]

Hmmm.

I think that you can take Norway, Iceland, Greenland and the southwest Swedish coast.

I assumed that it was only Denmark because of the location. We wanted the IRL equivalents of your territory, not what you call the conglomeration of the territory or the general region it’s in.

fine. I am absolutely outraged with this, but I guess I'll have to settle with it.

Well what you want is basically Nazi Germany's territory which certainly wouldn't be possible given Germany lost World War II and is even split into DRR and West Germany. I have no qualms about Scandinavia united since that's completely plausible. But the population claim of 2 billion is certainly absurd, even China has only 1 billion people IRL.

[Mathuvan Union]

App;

NS Nation: Mathuvan Union
RP Nation: Welsh Republic
Real or Fictional: Fictional

Capital: Cardiff
Leader: Afon Hughes
Leader Title: Prime Minister
Government Type: Federal Republic
Population: 66.65 Million
Manpower (Note; Manpower must not exceed 10% of population, and if it goes above 7%, it will be severely underfunded as will your other needs): 1.3 Million enlisted, 700k reserves
Nuclear Weapons (Y or N; Note that only nations with population exceeding 50m and full 10% of population enlisted can have nukes): N
Location: Wales, England, Jersey, Scotland
Brief History: in the 1000s, when England was in shambles, a great welsh king invaded all of the kingdoms and quickly took them over. This was the welsh empire for a time, and then crisis struck in the 1300s. The welsh people overthrew the crown and formed a republic. This republic was taken over by a man who turned it into a dictatorship, and the people revolted again in the 1700s after 400 years of rule. They made a Republic, and successfully invaded Scotland. With a growing navy, they took over Jersey, but failed to make any colonies. They attempted to invade Ireland, but decided not to as they did not think they could handle more territory

[Bosnia Herzegovina and Sandzak]

Has my application proven sufficent for acceptance or is something wrong with it?

I even linked a map to better articulate the area my country is located in

[HypErcApitAl]

Democratic Japan? that was unexpected

I was expecting monarchist weebs or some crap

[HypErcApitAl]

FYI, the Dutch are a Japanese ally

[Minskiev]

Democratic Japan? that was unexpected

I was expecting monarchist weebs or some crap

Somehow, the best Japan is Democratic. Actually, I take that back. Ottoman.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

China is a valid argument for world power, but Mexico?! Now that is a funny joke. Let me guess, Canada as well?

Also, I wouldn’t say it’s a direct opposite. Normally, it’s an opposite, yes, but it’s possible to compensate nation X by letting them be annexed into nation Y. Is it obscure? Yes. Possible? Yes.

However, you may bring up the point that Korea didn’t want to be annexed into Japan. And that is true. However, we have given them plenty of autonomy, and we have left their culture and people alone, so honestly, it’s more like a personal union, rather than a territory of Japan.

And finally, you have a fair point about not boosting our economy. Who am I to say what the US did when you’re the US? However, since you didn’t subsidize me, I suppose Japan would have been a founding member of ASEAN. Your occupation of us would also have made our culture like the Japan IOTL, and so I don’t really see too much of a difference between the RP Japan and the IOTL Japan, bar border changes and less of an alliance between SK, Japan, and the US.

Alright Denmark, you’re outraged with not being able to have the CZECH REPUBLIC? That’s dumber than assuming Sweden hasn’t also militarized more and expanded more to counter the Danish threat.

Okay, your reduced-population for Sweden deal is absurd. You had, what, 2 billion people in DENMARK? And now you want land to be reasonable? How do we know you didn’t intentionally make a dumb population size so you could swap it for land, knowing that you’d benefit out of it?

I, for one, would be very interested in the power dynamics between us two, especially if we were in an alliance together. Something like ASEAN, but it's expanded to include East Asia.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

FYI, the Dutch are a Japanese ally

We would be too, since I would assume that you acquired the Kiau Chau territory in the Opium War. I got Guangdong and HK from the Opium War. I would probably be in charge of defending the rest of the cities from any invasions given how close I am to Kiau Chau. Which means that we would be very diplomatically close.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

Has my application proven sufficent for acceptance or is something wrong with it?

I even linked a map to better articulate the area my country is located in

Yes, but you are supposed to edit your application with it.

App;

NS Nation: Mathuvan Union
RP Nation: Welsh Republic
Real or Fictional: Fictional

Capital: Cardiff
Leader: Afon Hughes
Leader Title: Prime Minister
Government Type: Federal Republic
Population: 66.65 Million
Manpower (Note; Manpower must not exceed 10% of population, and if it goes above 7%, it will be severely underfunded as will your other needs): 1.3 Million enlisted, 700k reserves
Nuclear Weapons (Y or N; Note that only nations with population exceeding 50m and full 10% of population enlisted can have nukes): N
Location: Wales, England, Jersey, Scotland
Brief History: in the 1000s, when England was in shambles, a great welsh king invaded all of the kingdoms and quickly took them over. This was the welsh empire for a time, and then crisis struck in the 1300s. The welsh people overthrew the crown and formed a republic. This republic was taken over by a man who turned it into a dictatorship, and the people revolted again in the 1700s after 400 years of rule. They made a Republic, and successfully invaded Scotland. With a growing navy, they took over Jersey, but failed to make any colonies. They attempted to invade Ireland, but decided not to as they did not think they could handle more territory

I'm actually pretty concerned about this app, since it would conflict with Sarderia and mine's history here, since they didn't colonise anything at all. The main reason why P&M and the US exists are because of Britain.

I can accept the Japanese having Korea, but this actually outright makes the existence of the US and me impossible.

[Sarderia]

China is a valid argument for world power, but Mexico?! Now that is a funny joke. Let me guess, Canada as well?

Also, I wouldn’t say it’s a direct opposite. Normally, it’s an opposite, yes, but it’s possible to compensate nation X by letting them be annexed into nation Y. Is it obscure? Yes. Possible? Yes.

However, you may bring up the point that Korea didn’t want to be annexed into Japan. And that is true. However, we have given them plenty of autonomy, and we have left their culture and people alone, so honestly, it’s more like a personal union, rather than a territory of Japan.

And finally, you have a fair point about not boosting our economy. Who am I to say what the US did when you’re the US? However, since you didn’t subsidize me, I suppose Japan would have been a founding member of ASEAN. Your occupation of us would also have made our culture like the Japan IOTL, and so I don’t really see too much of a difference between the RP Japan and the IOTL Japan, bar border changes and less of an alliance between SK, Japan, and the US.

Alright Denmark, you’re outraged with not being able to have the CZECH REPUBLIC? That’s dumber than assuming Sweden hasn’t also militarized more and expanded more to counter the Danish threat.

Okay, your reduced-population for Sweden deal is absurd. You had, what, 2 billion people in DENMARK? And now you want land to be reasonable? How do we know you didn’t intentionally make a dumb population size so you could swap it for land, knowing that you’d benefit out of it?

I, for one, would be very interested in the power dynamics between us two, especially if we were in an alliance together. Something like ASEAN, but it's expanded to include East Asia.

I would advise you not to maintain tight relations with Japan since it would provoke the US against P&M. Japan betrayed the US and Korean independence by annexing them, as such the US didn't help their economy (basically abandoning Japan with it's wrecked post-WW2 condition to rebulit with their own cash, which is practically nothing, thus prevented Japan's economic recovery from taking place) but I assume the significant US help turned to ASEAN instead. Since P&M are a democratic country it would be a valuable ally to the US.

[Malay Raya]

I would assume Indochina and North Korea to enjoy good relations since the disputes and misunderstandings that stem from the Vietnam War didn't happen in this timeline. Not that there's much to gain but at least a fellow socialist state is in the area.

That would also mean Indochina to have at best a neutral relation with Japan & US(?) since Indochina is a friend of NK.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

I, for one, would be very interested in the power dynamics between us two, especially if we were in an alliance together. Something like ASEAN, but it's expanded to include East Asia.

I would advise you not to maintain tight relations with Japan since it would provoke the US against P&M. Japan betrayed the US and Korean independence by annexing them, as such the US didn't help their economy (basically abandoning Japan with it's wrecked post-WW2 condition to rebulit with their own cash, which is practically nothing, thus prevented Japan's economic recovery from taking place) but I assume the significant US help turned to ASEAN instead. Since P&M are a democratic country it would be a valuable ally to the US.

Japan was given the Koreas (according to their canon) after the war though, which means that the US would have signed off or at least agreed to that part of Japan annexing it. I do think the annex is a bit of an overstep, but Japan could rebrand itself as a federation between Korea and Japan and retcon the Korean war entirely. I think that it's probably the best step if is Japan is intent on Korea and wants to maintain friendly relations with you.

[Sarderia]

I would advise you not to maintain tight relations with Japan since it would provoke the US against P&M. Japan betrayed the US and Korean independence by annexing them, as such the US didn't help their economy (basically abandoning Japan with it's wrecked post-WW2 condition to rebulit with their own cash, which is practically nothing, thus prevented Japan's economic recovery from taking place) but I assume the significant US help turned to ASEAN instead. Since P&M are a democratic country it would be a valuable ally to the US.

Japan was given the Koreas (according to their canon) after the war though, which means that the US would have signed off or at least agreed to that part of Japan annexing it. I do think the annex is a bit of an overstep, but Japan could rebrand itself as a federation between Korea and Japan and retcon the Korean war entirely. I think that it's probably the best step if is Japan is intent on Korea and wants to maintain friendly relations with you.

I have mentioned it in an edit to my US History where the US won the Korean War, however Japan violated the status quo and took possession of Korea shortly. From there relations between US and Japan began to deteriorate to the point USA imposes an embargo, stopping the post-WW2 economic relief etc. The reasons why Japan could'nt annex South Korea (peacefully) has been stated above in multiple replies. The US have no intention of being friendly with Japan unless South Korea gained independence under the Republic of Korea.

[Minskiev]

So you godmodded me forcefully annexing Korea in your lore? Even though my lore says I kept it after WW2? Although there was a Korean War, since I don’t own North Korea, it was only the North who rebelled, and I defended South Korea from them. There was no second annexation of South Korea; only the first. So, I owned South Korea for far longer than 75 years, then.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

So you godmodded me forcefully annexing Korea in your lore? Even though my lore says I kept it after WW2? Although there was a Korean War, since I don’t own North Korea, it was only the North who rebelled, and I defended South Korea from them. There was no second annexation of South Korea; only the first. So, I owned South Korea for far longer than 75 years, then.

Then I see zero issue with this. If Japan owned SK before the split, then SK would never come to be. No guarantee of independence by America, no issue over Dokdo/Takeshima, etc. That also means there would be no impact on your relationships as well.