1906: Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC-CLOSED]

[Axis Asteroid]

I understand, but that is not you coming up with a original new concept either. You started by making a Japan that was very close to what existed in real life, and then you made changes in order to conform yourself with the realities of this world and timeline. There is not enough originality coming from you and your ideas, and you also do not have a point of start and a buildup. We have some complicated alt-histories here, but all nations have a change at the core of their concept - the Byzantines are reborn as a direct effect of the failure of the Fourth Crusade in my app, the Western Roman Empire is reborn through the coronation of Belisarius, France becomes Reformed in opposition to imperial authority, at so on.

My personal advice is for you to come with a divergence and a concept tied to it.

At the same time, you have also not answered my other concern.

Please talk to me. How am I getting this wrong? I have literally completely changed the form of government, and my core concept is completely different.

I'm getting the feeling that racial stereotypes are coming into play here. IRL Japan did no colonizing at this extent. IRL Japan was not controlled by a military dictatorship. You suggested that I do a Japan with no western influence, and I have laid it out.

Please tell me what I am getting wrong. You are saying I am not being original, but how? If this is a thing against Imperial Japan or something just let me know. The history is completely different, the government is different, everything is different except the loyalty.

I feel a bit targeted here, I am doing changes in government, redoing history completely, but you still aren't accepting my application.

Can I get some input from other people please?

Literally, look three posts above you. I’m the one role-playing China here btw. Look to those apps for inspiration/as templates.

EDIT: I’ll just post it again here for you.

Hey Tracian sorry to be a bother. I just wanted to make it a bit easier for you to understand the Japan I am painting.

-snip-

If you want a template for the type of historical divergence needed for the RP, take a look at the apps of Oscal and myself, which I included in the links below. We are the Korean and Chinese players respectively.

Most Serene Imperial State of Korea (대한제국) <- Keep in mind this is from the older 1850 iteration of the RP, so it's until Oscal updates his app for this time frame, this is the best representation of Korea in this setting for now. Also, have to warn you it's quite the read.

Heavenly Kingdom of Transcendent Peace (太平天囯) < - This is mine. It's a relatively quicker read compared to Oscal's, so I recommend reading this first if you're short on time. I have to warn you though that my divergence is even more radical than Oscal's and for those unaware of the historical events leading up to it, might even bewilder them. But considering the rebellion from which this divergence is centered was the largest and deadliest war in mainland China before the World Wars, a militant, evangelizing, Christian theocracy in the largest country in Asia was more likely than you would believe, in the same way someone living in 1900 would have no reasonable expectation to believe that their country would not only become a totalitarian communist state, but also achieve technological and economic parity with the West by the end of the same century.

Hopefully our apps can give you inspiration for the changes you want to make to Japan in your app. Also, whenever you make references to Korea or China in your app, make sure to think of Oscal's Korea and Taiping China rather than the irl countries. Hope this helps.

[Plzen]

While Scandinavia does run a more liberal society than the French, if we are going to be the paragon of free trade and laissez-faire, liberalism is in serious trouble.

[Nouveau Quebecois]

While Scandinavia does run a more liberal society than the French, if we are going to be the paragon of free trade and laissez-faire, liberalism is in serious trouble.

What exactly is Scandinavia's goal apart from just existing

[Axis Asteroid]

While Scandinavia does run a more liberal society than the French, if we are going to be the paragon of free trade and laissez-faire, liberalism is in serious trouble.

What exactly is Scandinavia's goal apart from just existing

Here you are just casually dropping savage takes lol.

[Plzen]

What exactly is Scandinavia's goal apart from just existing

Scandinavia is a small country - it certainly cannot go one-to one against Russia, Central Europe, France, or Angelond on any basis except perhaps the scientific. The preservation of the status quo is ambition enough.

[Nouveau Quebecois]

What exactly is Scandinavia's goal apart from just existing

Scandinavia is a small country - it certainly cannot go one-to one against Russia, Central Europe, France, or Angelond on any basis except perhaps the scientific. The preservation of the status quo is ambition enough.

so it's goal is just existing

[Plzen]

so it's goal is just existing

The maintenance of free international trade, the protection of its frontiers from Russian, Anglish, or German ambition, political and social stability from the strong and popular socialist movement...

Just off the top of my head. The “status quo” is a broad term with many parts.

[Reverend Norv]

so it's goal is just existing

The maintenance of free international trade, the protection of its frontiers from Russian, Anglish, or German ambition, political and social stability from the strong and popular socialist movement...

Just off the top of my head. The “status quo” is a broad term with many parts.

This is what I meant when I suggested that Scandinavia, as a pagan confederation, might have opted out of the whole Protestant/Catholic, republican/autocratic epochal conflict that defines much of the rest of Europe. They're just up there colonizing Canada and selling pickled herrings, and power to them.

[Plzen]

This is what I meant when I suggested that Scandinavia, as a pagan confederation, might have opted out of the whole Protestant/Catholic, republican/autocratic epochal conflict that defines much of the rest of Europe. They're just up there colonizing Canada and selling pickled herrings, and power to them.

And you would be absolutely correct.

The Honourable Member speaks of religious liberation, of colonial masters, national glory, or the recovery of our lost territories. If the Right Honourable Speaker will permit me to speak frankly - of what concern are those of ours? Look out the window and gaze upon the people of our own capital city - prosperous, peaceful, and above all free. Is this not what we are fighting for - our victory already achieved?

Well, that’s an exaggeration - Scandinavia still has its national interests and ambitions - but we will be largely staying out of the great questions of Continental Europe.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

Full Nation Name : The Revolutionary Compact of Columbia

(Image)

Majority/Official Culture : Columbians [English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish].

Territorial Core : New England, Pennsylvania, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Delaware, Virginia, West Virginia
Territorial Claim : As of now the revolution is content to be contained within Columbia.
Capital City : Liberation, Workers Communal Capital (Formerly city of Hartford).
Population : Total Population: 33,648,909

A) New England: 7,400,909
B) Virginia: 2.347 million
C) New York: 10.28 million
D) Pennsylvania: 8.74 million
E) New Jersey: 3.198 million
F) Delaware: 219,000
G) Maryland: 1.464 million

Government Type : Revolutionary Compact


A system inspired by anarchism, leftist nationalism, council style governance, and theodemocratic elements.
Government Ideology/Policies : Revolutionary Compact

Official Policy: Neutrality of Revolution: Content to work on its own society, the compact while supportive of revolutionaries abroad sees no logical benefits toward actively expanding to support an international revolution. To do so would violate the principles of autonomy since it must be the people in those areas themselves rather than an outside force that ferments a revolution.


Government Focus : Stability- traditional socialist factions, and more extreme authoritarian ones vie for a chance to return to their old days of glory, but in a greater sense, the government wants stability enshrined as a virtue for the benefit of its citizenry.

Head of State : Assembly of the Governed


Head of Government : The Directory
Government Description :

Majority/State Religion : The Universalist Temple of Brotherhood
Religious Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

Economic Ideologies : Market Socialism backed by religious charity, and a heavy focus on social welfare.
Major Production : Industrial Goods
Economic Description :

Development: Modernized.
Development Description : [Explain further why your nation is in one of the above categories]

Army Description : [[Describe your nation's army in as much detail as you can]]
Army Weakness :
Naval Description : [[Describe your nation's navy in as much detail as you can]]
Naval Weakness :
Further Military Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

National Goals : Cultural Revolution in One Society
1] Protection of the Revolution
2] Extreme Autonomization
3] Racial, Economic, and Social Justice for All
4] Anti-imperialism, and colonialism.
5] Republic of the Everyman
National Issues :
1] The Red Guard of Vermont-Practitioners of wartime socialism, and believers of modeling the revolution by an army with a state they are a remnant of an old government. They are content to sit in Fortress Vermont, but many people suspect they may hold ambitions for the rest of the compact just as their wider branch cousin groups once held power..they may seek it back.
2] The Office of Strategic Information-Formerly secret police turned insurgents once they found themselves out of a job, and purged from the government after massive reforms by the compact structure.
3] The Rightists- Practitioners of socialist orthodoxy that now have found themselves out of a job following the collapse of the Peoples Republican government.

[[what needs to be fixed in order for your nation to achieve its true potential]]
National Figures of Interest : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Are there any Mother Teresas or Moses that we need to know about?]]
National Ambition/Aspirations : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Not really a set objective, but rather the big picture that your nation is drawing towards]]

History :

The Enlightened Revolution
1776-1783: The Enlightened Revolution occurs within the colonies that would one day become Columbia but despite the defeat of the Independent Coalition of Provinces the Kingdom of Angeland is utterly exhausted by the war effort. Due to the economic recession it is suffering, and the low morale of the home islands the government on behalf of the king signs a moderate treaty and forms a dominion arrangement with the rebellious provinces.

A) The government of the Independent Coalition of Provinces dissolves.
B) The leading government figures are granted pardons in exchange for lifelong oaths barring them from politics.
C) The provinces will renew their governments, and be allowed to resume normal economic business with the home islands.
D) The Acts of Religious Toleration would finally end-state the persecution of fellow Christians from different sects.
E) The soldiers involved in the Provincial army are granted amnesty and allowed to return home as a sign of goodwill.
F) The "Albany Plan of Union" proposed by the assassinated peace delegate Benjamin Franklin is put into place.
G) In a moment of extreme irony the Scottish house of Stuart (former anti-Rome kings of Angeland until their deposition by roman loyalist forces in 1688) is chosen to fill the position of Grand Duke. The current head of the house had fought for the loyalists not out of loyalty for the king so much as a planned restoration of order in the colonial provinces. Charles Edward Stuart had matched the provincial army commander George Washington in the third, and final battle of Jamestown, Virginia (named for the celibate princess Elizabeth exiled here following her renunciation of the "roman faith").

Early Period of the Grand Duchy of Columbia (1783-1788)

Charles Edward Stuart [Charles the 1st]: His reign as Grand Duke is both a mixture of irony and frustration. Irony as despite his allegiance to the king of Angeland he disavows the romanized faith of Britain for the homegrown Protestantism in Columbia. The very issue of taxes that started the war become a non-issue while Charles the 1st short, but important reign sees the institution of a moderate version of the "enlightened principles articles" the provincial rebels advocated. The provincial legislatures and governments acted pretty much as they had before the war with little interference from the Grand Duke. Other than the annual collection of war reparations that were sent to aid the economic recovery of the homeland things continued normally.

Middle to Late Period of the Grand Duchy of Columbia (1788-1807)

Henry Benedict Stuart [Henry the 1st]: The odd son out, an extremely religious man he focused on integrating much of the principles from the articles of the independent coalition of provinces. He began to distance Columbia further, and further from the home islands while also working on several key social reforms the country needed. The last generation of slaves was born at the start of Henry's reign as he would work to convince legislatures one by one to ban the practice. Seeing himself as an "enlightened sovereign" he worked constantly to improve the lives of the citizens of Columbia, and in the process began to ferment a national identity separate from the "Anglish". Henry promoted the myth of the resilient Romano-Briton, the forbearer of the true civilizations of the Christians on the home islands...not the uncivilized Danes. As a result, the term English began to appear in journals written on the Grand Duke's opinions on the matter.

In the final year of the Grand Duke's reign, he withdrew all obligations remaining to the Anglish masters. Years in the making the war reparations payments got smaller as did the garrisons of Anglish troops, and the government attaches grew to a nominal skeleton crew. By 1800 the Grand Duke officially stopped talking with the king using a freedman to deliver messages on his behalf. By 1807 a final letter was sent titled "the Union is separated, Columbia is free", by this point the 82-year-old grand duke decided to abdicate, and abolish the position of Grand Duke entirely. To a surprised crowd in Williamsburg, Virginia he announced the proclamation from his palace and then left for the nearby woods on a religious retreat.

The Early Republic (1807-1823)

Prime Minister George Washington Parke Custis (1807-1814)
Known as the Conservative Republic, the period was tumultuous internationally more than politically. The newly created parliament reborn from the political assembly of Columbia that existed under the Grand Duchy set out to cement their rule. The famed Virginian author George Washington Parke Custis relative of the famous defeated general Washington at the young age of 26 was elected as the first prime minister.
*Set the first official session of Parliament in Philadelphia as the capital of the nation.
* Commissioned a vote to connect the young nation together with a system of roads, and canals.
* Held a state funeral for the Grand Duke upon his passing at the age of 82.
* Held a vote for the creation of a pension system for the veterans of the enlightened revolution.
* Reformed the model army of Columbia
* Turned away the ambassador from Angeland citing "irreconcilable differences".
* Designated the countries official name as "The English Republic of Columbia", and tried to establish diplomatic relations with the Adamites.
* Opened formal relations with the French as a part of the "Anti-Anglish" strategy.
* Held a funeral for the retrieved remains of the beloved Benjamin Franklin (interred in France since his assassination).
* Stepped down at the end of his seven-year term, and retired to Mount Vernon.

Prime Minister James Madison (1814-1821)
*Ramped up the escalation of trade tensions between Columbia, and Angeland in response to forced impressment of Columbian sailors on their way to French ports.
* Began to increase the funding of the Columbian Transoceanic Navy to guard their ships, and in one route a firefight occurred (1815).
* Worked with Parliament to acquire funding to pay for increased wages for new militias, fortifications, and other defensive measures.
* The Three Years War (1816-1819) started following the sinking of a civilian ship with the deaths of nearly the entire crew. The Atlantic turned into a warzone with fleets on both sides fighting everywhere. In 1818 the war reached a fevered pitch as Anglish troops commenced the "central campaign", the invasion force burned Mount Vernon while also laying siege to Baltimore, New York, and Boston. The troops engaged in house to house fighting on the streets of the capital before the prime minister ordered the city bombarded to stop the Anglish offensive. While the city was saved a massive fire killing thousands erupted as a result of the bombardment.

The British would remain in parts of Maryland, Pennsylvania, and Delaware until being pushed out in the "Road to Dover" liberation counteroffensive. At sea Commodore Isaac Hull lead a fleet of several ships of a new design for a revenge mission towards Angeland (the ships were fitted with live oak helping them bounce off cannons). Isaac's flagship the CSS Article launched the first volley of bombardments on Cardiff itself, and one bombardment round even ended up killing the king himself during all of this. The campaign ended with several land raids across Southern Angeland before the flotilla returned back home to avoid the larger bulk of the royal navy catching up with them. The war ended on a dreary note in 1819 with no official victor as the sides were drawn into a stalemate at sea with both having hundreds of thousands of prisoners of war waiting to return home.

*Following the peace treaty of Paris (1819) the war ended, and both sides returned home bitter, this would be the last interaction Angeland, and Columbia would officially ever have. Any diplomatic interaction did under the neutral arbitration of a myriad web of intermediaries through Paris. James Madison spent the rest of his term fixing the war-torn country before resigning in 1821.

Prime Minister Daniel D. Tompkins (1821-1823)

* Remembered as the final prime minister of the early republic the country entered into a recession, and despite Tompkin's best efforts to relieve the economy, they weren't working due in part to low treasury funds.
*In 1823 the citizens of several provinces formed "Tax Break" leagues to request an end to the high taxation that was being forced on them. In some communities, these tax break leagues seceded from the government out of protest and formed their own governments which caused particular alarm in the province of Pennsylvania. Welsh-Columbian philanthropist Robert Owen now the leader of a local community in Pennsylvania was shot, and killed by a provincial militia during a dispute causing nationwide outrage.
* The tax breaker communities in Pennsylvania assembled a militia lead by veterans of the three years war who marched on Philadelphia, and rather than face having the government overthrown Tompkin's resigned, and an election commission worked out terms with the strikers.

Middle Republic (1823-1848)- Known collectively as the Liberal Republic

Prime Minister James Monroe (1823-1830)

*Appointed in an emergency session the Virginian delegate found himself in a new era of the republic. He resolved to amend the high taxation, and in a moment of political weakness moved the capital to New York citing security reasons following the near overwhelming of Philadelphia by mobs. With parliament, he worked tirelessly to create a more liberal version of the enlightened principles articles known today as the "New York Articles". This enshrined universal male suffrage and established a pension system for veterans of the war. He began to work with several business interests to industrialize and alleviate the economic depression causing issues all over the country.

Martin Van Buren (1830-1837)

1844-Governor of the Province of New York Joseph Smith, an avowed Christian leftist is assassinated while on a tour of the provincial jails. He intended to demonstrate the success of his reforms in regard to the rights of convicts.

1845-
RP Sample: [[Either a link to a past post, or an example written right here.]]

#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

Norv's point on the reaction of the colonies towards the home islands (Angeland) is pretty accurate. Essentially a lot of the millenarian religious movements that occurred have become political in nature as well. During a point in my nation's history, they overwhelm the secular Marxian style socialist government that the people viewed as tyrannical (for reasons that will become clear).

[The Ik Ka Ek Akai]

I understand, but that is not you coming up with a original new concept either. You started by making a Japan that was very close to what existed in real life, and then you made changes in order to conform yourself with the realities of this world and timeline. There is not enough originality coming from you and your ideas, and you also do not have a point of start and a buildup. We have some complicated alt-histories here, but all nations have a change at the core of their concept - the Byzantines are reborn as a direct effect of the failure of the Fourth Crusade in my app, the Western Roman Empire is reborn through the coronation of Belisarius, France becomes Reformed in opposition to imperial authority, at so on.

My personal advice is for you to come with a divergence and a concept tied to it.

At the same time, you have also not answered my other concern.

Please talk to me. How am I getting this wrong? I have literally completely changed the form of government, and my core concept is completely different.

I'm getting the feeling that racial stereotypes are coming into play here. IRL Japan did no colonizing at this extent. IRL Japan was not controlled by a military dictatorship. You suggested that I do a Japan with no western influence, and I have laid it out.

Please tell me what I am getting wrong. You are saying I am not being original, but how? If this is a thing against Imperial Japan or something just let me know. The history is completely different, the government is different, everything is different except the loyalty.

I feel a bit targeted here, I am doing changes in government, redoing history completely, but you still aren't accepting my application.

Can I get some input from other people please?

Hi, I play the Western Roman Empire. I haven't read your stuff too closely, so maybe you really are following all of it, but I'll try to explain what our nice OP here is probably trying to say:

Alternative Divergence is a series about exploring the possibilities and the butterfly effects of a what-if scenario. It's not just about making things different, but rather, taking one key point in a region's history and flipping it, and then following the series of events that unfold because of that change.

My example is the existence of the Western Roman Empire into the present day. It's not just Italy under a different name, it's not even that similar to Italy on the whole. It has quite a lot of similarities, but one might be hard pressed to declare it's the same Italy of irl 1906 with a few changes made. My point of divergence lies with Belisarius, a Byzantine general sent to reclaim the West in the 6th century CE. In this timeline, he is not recalled, is not forced to retire, but succeeds entirely. He does not merely feign the offer given to him as in real life, but accepts it, which allows him to essentially consolidate the whole of Italy under his power including Gothic garrisons left unconquered, before pledging his allegiance to Justinian once more. Belisarius, well-respected among the Goths irl and forced to retire before his Italian campaigns were complete, in this timeline had a degree of control over Italy and the Goths therein that he simply did not have irl, which would've severely complicated the matter of trying to replace him. Justinian's paranoia could not take full effect, lest he face serious unrest, and any unrest of course he would need Belisarius to temper.

So, as it happens, in this timeline Belisarius is allowed to keep his tentative throne under Justinian, for the emperor is left with little other choice. Belisarius, often being considered to be of more temperate and thoughtful character than Justinian, and certainly more gentle, sympathetic, and benevolent. Beliarius, seeing the need to unite the people in his domain, and in line with his benevolent nature, would refuse to follow through on persecutions mandated by Justinian. This allowed the Arian Goths, as well as sizable populations of pagans that still existed and even openly rebelled around this time, to live in relative peace, and to stabilize his control over the area and provide a secure frontier for the empire. The northern valleys were, after all, guarded by Gothic garrisons at the time of the Siege of Ravenna, and they were quite loyal to him irl until they learned that he had betrayed them. With no actual betrayal taking place, but instead accepting the crown and accepting it as subject to the East, and through his tolerance, their loyalty is maintained.

This means the Lombard invasions fail, and they are resettled among the Goths to form an Imperial Germanic Guard similar to the later Byzantine Varangians and earlier models of Barbarian Bodyguard units. If the Lombards never take Italy, and the Western Roman Empire has a viable claimant, then the foundation of the Holy Roman Empire under Charlemagne is rendered moot - he can be recognized as imperial to the chagrin of the proper Romans, but he has no real claim over Italy, and the things that gave him cause to conquer Italy IRL are not present. Not least of which since his invasion was predicated on the Lombard king returning land to the Byzantines, but in this reality there is no Lombard king and the whole of Italy is subject to the Byzantines. There is no Holy Roman Empire to speak of in the north, only the Central European Empire to fill its gap.

With no Holy Roman Empire, the politics of Italy are quite drastically changed. The Guelphs and Ghibellines are nonexistent, and the later Italian Wars never happen. The city-state model doesn't quite form the way it did irl, but autonomous republics do form all the same. In many ways, the renaissance kicks off early, at least in Italy, as the patronage system and wide accessibility of the classics under Byzantine influence would have kickstarted things a bit early. Although the Fourth Crusade still happens, the Western government is able to contain it slightly and can act quickly to restore order, which in turn helps the Eastern government, the Byzantines, to restore their own order and survive. The Western participation in the Crusades, mixed with its ties to the East, means that they are more properly what they were meant to be originally - returning of land to the Byzantines, with only maybe German and French leaders holding out. One solid thing to close out the Middle Ages is the fact that the Great Schism, which split Orthodoxy and Catholicism, never happened.

The Roman-ness and the mixture of the tolerance of Italian republics, as well as the tolerance of Belisarius and his progeny, means that Italy gets quite a good taste of its own classical history. Pagan Renaissance things are not banned or scorned, and paganism even becomes a fad among the elite for a while - just like in later centuries among the Swedes or the English. The self-reinforcing cycle of republicanism within Italy means the Senate plays a much larger part than in the Byzantines, although it has been this way since Belisarius since his military government would not be necessarily absolute either. Although Italy is unified, regional identities are preserved to some extent - as can be said about irl, but it's less about being "Italian" and more about "having Romanity", so regional identities and languages can stay particularly strong despite being under a united government. The notion of all Latins being essentially equal, instead of trying to promote a common regional identity, also means the Dalmatians get to thrive too and are included within the regional mosaic that makes up Western Roman culture. They are, in fact, viewed as being not substantially different in nature from the Italians, and even get some favoritism since the current imperial line is from there.

Through the Early Modern period and into the Industrial, Italy is much more united. The presence of the Western Emperor has allowed the country to play an important regional role for many centuries, instead of being feuding vassal-princes of the HRE. The Italian shipbuilding and mercenary traditions translated well to the Roman army and navy respectively, which they would view as a continuation of regional legions from ancient times.

This unity across the land meant that several important decisions could be found in a much broader scope. The Roman revolt in the Middle Ages granted widespread availability of voting rights, and put an early end to the Papal States. Between this and the failure of the schism, the Pope is much less influential than irl, although still quite an important figure. The theory of female suffrage from the Republic of Corsica is applied on a universal scale across the empire, which would make it a century or more ahead of its time in most irl countries.

And all of this is just talking about Italy. North Africa has been drastically changed as well. Belisarian tolerance meant that the Jewish community of the land, which was historically quite strong in the Late Roman era, would not suffer as it did historically when the Vandals were ousted. In fact, it led to a resurgence of the Punic language, as more resettled Jews and Samaritans from more recent revolts were propped up to develop the African coastline where dwindling speakers of Punic still remained, and the Punic was quite close to the native Hebrew and Aramaic that they would speak. It was essentially gifted to them as a new place of refuge free of persecution under the Belisarids, under the condition of strict loyalty and the development of the land. This also means incidents of Barbary Pirates are greatly reduced, and the wealth of the area did not quite fade in later history as it did irl. The land is now mostly split between African Latins and Carthaginian Jews, as well as some Berbers, but it is quite a radically different landscape indeed.

So, through a mixture of trying to antagonize the East, and trying to secure the West, a lot has gone down. The natural developments of irl history carry through, such as the birth of the Italian merchant republic, as these were factors that are totally unchanged by my alternate history and instead attributed to the unique environment that existed in Italy at the time. Although they do not form in exactly the same way and definitely don't have a lot of the conflicts they had irl, the relative urbanization, preexisting mercantile connections, and the mindset of the time, all make it almost inevitable that it will happen. The developments of shipbuilding and condottieri are also natural follow-ups since they would not have strong standing armies of their own citizens, being generally too small even if they are very wealthy. Moreover, they have influenced the fact that the West is much more republican than the East. As I have guided history to create my alternate history, so too has real-life history guided my alternate history. I have been influenced by irl developments that some would argue are simply inevitable due to the conditions that created them being essentially innate, but I have also made radical changes to the world around me based on what was originally only a small change.

More or less the entire history of Europe has changed in quite fundamental ways, all because Belisarius got to keep his crown. One change leads to another, leads to another, leads to another, each historical event that relies on some specific set of circumstances needs to be reevaluated to see if it still makes sense. My Italian republics still happen, because the conditions of being highly urban and featuring a mercantile aristocracy are still present in my altered timeline - in fact, the Roman traditions mean that they actually are more primed for this than they were historically, there are less outright monarchical states than in irl. However, the Holy Roman Empire does not exist beyond the Western Empire, and so Charlemagne cannot claim to be it, and so everything that relies on fights between the German emperor and the Pope such as the Investiture Controversy, the installation of Antipopes, and a few other things, are all rendered invalid. This, in turn, blossoms into even more changes down the line, and so it goes.

If you read all that, congratulations. I hope the idea is a bit clearer now. This isn't just about having a country that's different from history, but from establishing a whole other timeline. Don't think of what you want your country to be now, but think instead of a crucial moment in history that could've gone differently. Make it go differently, and see how the effects spiral from there. For example, what if Oda Nobunaga never united Japan? Well, then his council of very important people would never have allowed Tokugawa Ieyasu to rise to power quite like he did. In fact, the Ashikaga might still be ruling today, and they might not have put forth all the bans on weapons that the Tokugawa shogunate did, they might not have closed the country, etc. What if the Ikko-ikki won? Japan's religious landscape and philosophy would be very different! Would these monks have led a monastic state in the far east? Would they have made some sort of Confucian Republic? What if the Genpei War went differently? What if the Taira won, would Japan have even had feudalism at all?

These are just examples of key points in Japanese history you could take. You could go even further, really. There's not that much of a limit on this. You could have the Ainu be dominant, if you really wanted to. If you can find something that might impact Korea and China more broadly, without necessarily blocking players from existing in these areas, that'd be pretty great to follow as well. These are the sorts of things we're looking for here.

[Kazarogkai]

Full Nation Name : The Adamite Iron Order
Majority/Official Culture : Adamites(Welsh, with small elements of English, Breton, Manx, and Scottish.
Territorial Core :

(Image)

Territorial Claim :

(Image)

Capital City : Atlantis(IRL Atlanta,Georgia)
Population : The population is roughly about twice that of what the region had during the same period in IRL but I considered that reasonable considering the vastly different circumstances both politically and economically. Namely the area is a lot more industrialized. I gave the nation a population doubling rate, about every 25 years, on par with the United States of the period. Though unlike the USA, post first quarter of the 19th, said population growth was maintained via natural growth(native born) rather than via large scale immigration. The predominant cultural attitudes that caused European Fertility Rates to steadily decline during this period unlike in the USA never transplanted over into Adamia hence the Maintenance of the aforementioned natural population growth.
1775 750,
1800 750,
1825 1500,
1850 3000,
1875 6000,
1900 12000,
1906 14880, (Current)
1925 24000, (In theory)
Government Type : Stratocratic Republic
Government Ideology/Policies : Expansionist(The Revolution will not be contained)
Government Focus : [[Tell me a little bit about what is your government’s focus… be it military, economy, culture, legitimacy, etc.]]
Head of State : The Grand Committee
Head of Government : Speaker Moses Hall
Government Description :

Majority/State Religion : [[OPTIONAL]] [[It does not have to be IRL religion]]
Religious Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

Economic Ideologies : Quasi-Socialist, Georgist, National-Syndicalist
Major Production : small arms, artillery, steel, ship building textiles, glass, concrete, fish, tropical fruit, timber, livestock, agricultural implements, mining equipment
Economic Description : The overall system is a rather strange breed quite unique for the world they live in. The majority of the factors of production in terms of both the tertiary, secondary, and the primary sector are run along syndicalist/communal lines with all business organizations above the family being in effect required to be run on cooperative lines with all members benefiting more or less equally and running it as such along democratic lines. Said cooperatives range in size from a single factory all the way up to large nationally run federations known as guilds run via a council based delegate system in a manner along the lines of the aforementioned faction's political system. With delegates from below electing those from above. Said guilds receive direct representation and are technically incorporated into the national government to help create overall policy.

On the otherhand elements of state socialism do persist with certain strategic resources like precious metals and even whole industries like arms manufacturing being a state interest and being the principle element. These are meant to be used to help the nation as a whole but are also found quite significant sources of revenue especially the aforementioned arms manufacturing with said weaponry produced being typically sold to various government approved armed revolutionary groups that prove a menace to many nations present in the new world. This has earned them quite a bit of hate despite efforts to keep it on the down low. The socialist element also comes into play to some degree due to despite the fact that Adamia is technically a market based economy the government does provide a tremendous role serving as the main regulator of the whole chaotic morass and safe guarder of consumers and workers health. This is rather heavily exemplified by the incorporation of the various Guilds, national cooperative federations and major industries, into the government to represent their interests and providing the government a way to help influence and direct the overall flow of the economy.

One important factor to consider is natural resources namely Land, Water, and Air. These three are regarded as the providence of all members of the community and hence are organized and considered to be under community ownership though individuals and their families have the right to manage said resources so to speak. In effect this means that local governments, namely municipalities, are given the duty of administering said resources with said duty being their principle job and the rent derived from the use of it being a significant source of their revenue.

Elements of protectionism are at play primarily serving to protect from foreign competition who might flood the local market with cheap goods and thereby destroy the still rather fragile industries that comprise Adamia. Despite this the country is rather reliant on exports, most notably decent quality steel and alongside that weapons due to the rather small population and hence small market that is Adamia being insufficient to properly sustain the continuing industrialization of Adamia alone in spite of talk of and a desire for autarky by the government. This is kinda the dirty secret of the whole thing and hence the sever effect their isolation has had on their economy resulting in it being known as a rather poor country both in raw size and in per capita manners.

Development: Semi-Industrialized
Development Description : Though the elements of Industrialization came into play sometime in the post war period is didn't really hit off properly until the latter part of the 1820s. Compared to most nations it was largely a state based initiative due to the rather weak capitalist class present. The initial focus was a two fold mix of the need for arms to equip the armed forces but also a need to feed and connect the growing population. The end result has been a rather excessively specialized system whose primary focus is centered on supporting the other 2 sectors of the economy the service and agriculture rather than being an independent and principle body of the economy in it's own right. One of the principle manufactured goods for example is agricultural and mining equipment to better allow for greater resource extraction(primary sector), another example is the arms manufacturing used to equip the military(service sector). Hence most of it's industry is categorized as being light rather than of the heavy variety and overall exports principally derive from the agricultural sector with only surplus production from the secondary sector being exported in rather sparing amounts. Still for a what is regarded as a rather small and poor new world nation it's still pretty good in areas where it does focus on namely being one of the premier arms manufacturers and producers of steel in the world with Adamite guns and steel being found all over the place ranging from the bummest parts of non-colonial Africa to equipping the armies of other new world nations too poor to have their own significant development in that regard.

Army Description :
Derived from the various militant bands forming the military confederation that ultimately helped wage the Nations over 2 decade long struggle for independence. Coming out of that formative forged in fire moment what came out was a battle hardened and disciplined fighting force that had a reputation for tenacity and absolute bullheadedness. Since Independence all the way into the present era that reputation in many ways was preserved during the course of the past century by the force that forms the Iron Legion of the Adamite Holy Phalanx. Abroad they helped spread the revolution far and wide; at home they defended the nation in it's darkest hours in the face of numerous invasions. Over the past century or so of it's existence Adamia has seen little peace. Whether it was engaging in small to medium scale expeditionary conflicts all way to the numerous attempted invasions on Adamite soil both by their former colonial master but also via their neighbors and other powers seeking to curb the rabid dog of the West. This has led to a nation and by extension military fueled by paranoia and an almost palpable hatred for all who dare oppose them.

In the eyes of many they come off as an unsophisticated and brutish lot only slightly above the quasi-bandit force that birthed it. But one mustn't make the mistake of taking the Iron Legion lightly. This is an army that has since it's earliest years been bloodied and battered but never truly bowed by any nation seeking to restrain them, atleast when fighting on their own lands. Despite on numerous occasions being forced to face against forces greater in both power and technology and in all conventional manners the Iron Legion have always persevered with a dogged determination bordering on outright fanaticism that has both appalled but also awed those who have been force to face it. From a strategic standpoint overall the central theme has been best summed up as "Nation at Arms". Men from the time they are boys are immersed in a martial culture that starts at home and continues unto death supported by and actively encouraged by the State. In many ways they view themselves as the successors of Sparta more so than Athens. Civilian Gun ownership is not only encouraged but viewed in many ways as a collective duty with all households being required to maintain atleast one firearm within their mist to aid in the quick mobilization of forces. All this and more combined creates for the enemies of this nation what by all indications is a tough hard fighting force very much capable of throwing above it's weight. The reputation of Adamite troops in many ways proceeds themselves creating in many ways an aura of fear as some of if not the best troops this side of the Atlantic.heir absolute brilliance on the defense, their long military traditions despite their young age, tremendous amounts of experience fighting in conflicts abroad, almost fanatic morale and fervor and brutality displayed by their regular enlisted, and near constant state of conflict with their neighbors since independence has allowed them to earn this reputation the hard way. Their forces have earned respect but also a tremendous amount of fear due to their rather infamous history of brutality actively encouraged and cultivated by Adamite commanders since time immoral. Their have been cases throughout the history of this world when faced up against Adamite troops over the horizon bearing down upon them with the heads of dead enemy soldiers proudly displayed as trophies on their belts, war paint slathered across their skin, white uniforms glistening in the sun, the black and white banners they fly proudly, and the war howls of the Legionaries sensing blood in the water lesser forces have been made to rout rather than facing them in the open. On the battlefield the focus is on powerful but rigid mass troop formations centered around aggressive maneuvers and attritioning their opponents into submission. While brutality and fanaticism by the rank and file have always been encouraged strict command and control is still exercised, enforced in part via a mixture of fear but also brutal discipline on the part of both Officers and NCOs. Infantry are the main foundation with a sorta belief that hard determination and elan are enough to bring victory, which can lead to mass casualties, but Artillery is also well regarded and considered an essential component. Cavalry on the otherhand in many is kinda the ugly stepchild. Due in part to the nature of the formation of the Iron Legion Cavalry were never a particularly major part of the whole thing. Unlike the powerful Cavalry formations of their many enemies the Adamite's have never really regarded nor treated their Cavalry as little more than highly mobile skirmishers leading to a significant and arguably excessive focus on the former two.

Forming the very backbone of this whole thing is their system of Universal Conscription. Though not full implemented until the 1825 army reforms elements of it were present throughout much of the history of the lands of Adamia notably during the initial Settlement of Lebanon Hill in which as per law all men of age were legally members of the Militia required to in times of need to defend the Settlement as a whole from attack. All men upon completing of Secondary School at around 20 years of age are unless a university deferment has been granted required to present themselves for inspection at the nearest Military Barracks to begin their service of 2 years as Velites(Conscripts). Upon completing said service all men are given the choice to either become Crusaders(Professionals) or join the Militia as Hoplites(Allotment Troops) at which point they will over the years till reaching the age of 60 be required to intermediately serve for short periods of time in peacetime and be compelled to serve in times of war when need be. While economically costly and difficult to administer it has led to what can only be described as a national force bringing together the men of the nation from all walks of life into a single institution regardless of class or position and helping and molding these men into brothers in arms. Serving an important role similar to Public Education as an organization that engages in the all important task of social engineering.
Army Weakness :
Though they do they best with what they have with the Adamite state spending on the level of 50% of the governments total budget equaling somewhere in the ballpark or between 5-10% of the total GDP. But even then the Iron Order isn't the most wealthy state with their very isolation being a crippling affliction in it's own right and hence even at their best they can only in terms of money reach a level that is best classified as subpar by the most wealthy and powerful. The bulk of what weaponry they do have is aging and in some cases is outright obsolete. In this time of tremendous change the best they can usually do is match but never exceed the great powers of this world. While in core areas(like infantry weapons and artillery) they have shown the capability to match or atleast keep up with the powers that be in other more new arenas they aren't even trying. Notably they lack any sort of aircraft or armored fighting vehicles, chemical/biological weapons and protection is nonexistent. And if that was not bad enough automobiles have yet to make any sort of impact forcing Adamite troops to have to rely on older oxen pulled wagon trains and animal power in general when away from their railways to supply their armies on the field. In terms of infrastructure Adamia has shown itself to be a reasonably solid nation building an extensive network of roads, canals, and rail to cover much of the populated regions of the Iron Order. This has allowed them them to supply and maintain their forces throughout the entirety of their lands, whenever they leave such is not always the case though resulting in them having difficulty in terms of sustainment outside their territory. Probably the biggest problem in general has to do with as mentioned the military being so political. In order to keep control and in general prevent a coup certain precautions have been made especially towards the officer corps that could be argued have resulted in a severe issue in terms of efficiency and competence. Things like Political Commissars and the use of civilian courts to try military personnel in peace time and in some circumstances wartime and the tremendous emphasis placed on civilian control of the armed forces leads to much of the officers being barely above that of political cronies who are more interested in keeping their necks than being the best that they can be and hence are lacking in terms of things like personal initiative, lest they be seen as a nail that needs to be hammered down, and are rigidly procedural leading to a force largely devoid of much in the way of innovation outside weapons procurement to some degree. In terms of equipment though regarded in many areas as being brilliant by foreign observers from the Regimental level downward most of their weapons tend to be previous generation and they have a tendency to fall behind other nations while only barely keeping up at the best of times. Troops though well trained and disciplined the cult of elan that pervades the thinking of much of the military is sometimes emphasized to a detriment. Soldiers in battle are known for and expected to hold their ground and refuse to retreat or surrender even when it would be best to do so, and their commanders tend to place a too great emphasis on mass infantry tactics which can lead to heavy losses which honestly they can't really afford too much considering their opponents. Tactically their forces are a heavy footed lot never quite having mastered the more subtle aspects of warfare lacking in areas like small unit tactics and the like. Mix that in with a reputation for brutality leading to a force with issues related towards hearts and mind in the eyes of those living outside Adamia. All this combines together resulting in a force which while regarded as being absolutely brilliant on the defense within their own lands especially is a bit off on large scale offensive operations.

Naval Description :
Always the one playing second fiddle to the Iron Legion the Adamite Navy has throughout it's history never amounted to much more than a supporting member of the overall military complex. Primarily a green water force centered around securing it's vast coast line and maintaining control and influence along major river ways and to a degree exerting influence on the nearby Caribbean sea. In terms of Blue Water operations it's been almost entirely limited to a mix of defending what few trade routes the Adamites maintain and by extension ferrying and supporting the Iron Legion over the course of many foreign expeditions.
Naval Weakness :
Lacking in both Battleships and heavier craft that have become the staple of powers within this era the Navy is fundamentally a limited force that has never really shown any substantial capabilities outside of limited circumstances. At the end of the day they always ends up at the bottom of the bucket in terms of funding and get only the scraps of whatever the Iron Legion has taken in terms of the conscription pool. Hence it tends to be were the rejects and loosers of society end up and has a reputation that is accordingly as such. Compared to the Iron Legion the reputation of the Navy has never even come close to even equaling that of their peers barely having the ability to even project power within the Caribbean let alone the Atlantic.

Distribution of Forces
446,400 active personnel: 148,800 Velites(conscripts),148,800 Hoplites(allotment troops),148,800 Crusaders(professionals)
1,041,600 2nd line(Organized Reserve)
1,488,000 3rd line(Unorganized Reserve)

A The Iron Legion 360,000
a Western Front

- 2 Artillery Chapters
- 4 Infantry Chapters
- Total Per. 180,000 men + 1200 guns

b Eastern Front

- 1 Cavalry Chapter
- 3 Infantry Chapters
- Total Per. 120,000 men + 480 guns

c Southern Front

- 1 Cavalry Chapter
- 1 Infantry Chapter
- Total Per. 60,000 men + 240 guns

B The Adamite Navy 60,000
- 16 Coastal Defense Columns = 384 Guns
a Warships = 120

- 1 Heavy Cruiser
- 1 Light Cruisers
- 08 Destroyers
- 10 Frigates
- 12 Monitors
- 60 Light Vessels(Gun Boats,Torpedo Boats)
- 30 Other vessels(Mine layers, Tug boats, etc)

C Capital Guard 15,000

- Outer Guard 7500 men+ 60 Guns
- Inner Guard 7500 men + 60 Guns

D War Department Staff 11,400

a Division of Logistics
b Division of Personnel Affairs
c Division of Planning
d Division of Operations

National Goals :
National Issues : [[what needs to be fixed in order for your nation to achieve its true potential]]
National Figures of Interest : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Are there any Mother Teresas or Moses that we need to know about?]]
National Ambition/Aspirations : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Not really a set objective, but rather the big picture that your nation is drawing towards]]

History :

Early Settlement Period 1600-1660
Age of Fear 1660-1683
Anglo Conquest 1683-1688
Royal Colony Period 1688-1760
Period of Unrest 1760-1775
National Crusade 1775-1800
First Constitution 1800-1820
Second Constitution 1820-1860
Third Constitution 1860-1900
Fourth Constitution 1900-Present



RP Sample: [[Either a link to a past post, or an example written right here.]]

#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

Still getting things squared away. Got the Military more or less down and plan on finishing up the remainder of the Auxiliaries by Monday working on the history after that is done.

[TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON]

-snip-

Literally, look three posts above you. I’m the one role-playing China here btw. Look to those apps for inspiration/as templates.

EDIT: I’ll just post it again here for you.

If you want a template for the type of historical divergence needed for the RP, take a look at the apps of Oscal and myself, which I included in the links below. We are the Korean and Chinese players respectively.

Most Serene Imperial State of Korea (대한제국) <- Keep in mind this is from the older 1850 iteration of the RP, so it's until Oscal updates his app for this time frame, this is the best representation of Korea in this setting for now. Also, have to warn you it's quite the read.

Heavenly Kingdom of Transcendent Peace (太平天囯) < - This is mine. It's a relatively quicker read compared to Oscal's, so I recommend reading this first if you're short on time. I have to warn you though that my divergence is even more radical than Oscal's and for those unaware of the historical events leading up to it, might even bewilder them. But considering the rebellion from which this divergence is centered was the largest and deadliest war in mainland China before the World Wars, a militant, evangelizing, Christian theocracy in the largest country in Asia was more likely than you would believe, in the same way someone living in 1900 would have no reasonable expectation to believe that their country would not only become a totalitarian communist state, but also achieve technological and economic parity with the West by the end of the same century.

Hopefully our apps can give you inspiration for the changes you want to make to Japan in your app. Also, whenever you make references to Korea or China in your app, make sure to think of Oscal's Korea and Taiping China rather than the irl countries. Hope this helps.

Thanks. I am really just at a loss of what I am doing wrong. If you could give a couple of ideas that would be amazing mate.

The rules had stated there must be some degree of difference. I have provided this and more. The form of government is very different which should be something in itself, the history is different. Everything I have done is different except the religion. And I see no issue in that since everyone else has been using an IRL religion.

I will work a bit more but I do not see any similarity between this Japan and IRL Imperial Japan. I am wondering if it is just because I have chosen a controversial nation in the eyes of many, and proceeded to outfit it with the same controversial religion. If the religion is not welcome in this RP though, I am happy to make the state religion Buddhism.

I have spent too long on the app to let it slip away so suggestions on how I should change Japan will be much appreciated.

EDIT: I have changed a few things around. This is a Japan that has no "Imperial" part of it at all now. This is a Japan ruled by a military dictatorship with the Emperor just a figurehead meant to inspire loyalty. This Japan is struggling even more so to obtain natural resources and it is one in which there is much higher dissident than IRL. It has actually seized colonies as a result.

I am very open to the suggestions still but kinda don't understand why I need to keep revising. It is VERY DIFFERENT! But never the less as I said before, if Shintoism is offensive, I am willing to have a Buddhist Japan or if you want radical change I will make it a Christian Japan. Although I would need help with that since I don't know jack about Christianity.

I will point out I have experience RPing... if you check out the ones I listed you'll see that I have done a similar RP to this, just staged in 1912. I used a very Japanese nation and that didn't hardly effect the roleplay.

[Pasong Tirad]

Hi!

Currently working a difficult full-time job from home. I am very seriously considering waiving my Lenten break from NationStates just to join this. Please give me some time (no more than 24 hours) to consider joining. That being said:

Reservation

Nation Name: The Empire of Ethiopia (የኢትዮጵያ ንጉሠ ነገሥት መንግሥተ / Ye’ītiyop’iya Niguše Negešiti Menigišite), popularly known by Europe and the Americas as Abyssinia (አቢሲኒያ / Ābīsīnīya), and referred to colloquially by its own inhabitants as The Horn (ቀንድ / K’enidi).
Territory:

(Would also like to request this portion of northern Ethiopia and Eritrea from Tracian if at all possible)
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

This will be my reservation for now. OIt will be subject to withdrawal, if I feel like I can't handle the load, or if I'm interested in other parts of the world. Right now, I'm considering taking up my old Ethiopian empire and figuring out a new storyline for it - possibly involving religious and/or dynastic conflicts; a Maori nation, along with its conflicts over indigenous rights, land troubles and Maori-pākehā relations; or another nation within the Middle East or Africa, perhaps something in Arabia, WamaZulu or Kurdistan - if Tracian and Kargintina don't object (although I doubt I'll be able to get it.)

I'll be back in a day after posting, at most, with the announcement of my withdrawal or an application.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

So suffice to say the Anglish, and Columbians pretty much don't get along in this world.

[Tracian Empire]

Literally, look three posts above you. I’m the one role-playing China here btw. Look to those apps for inspiration/as templates.

EDIT: I’ll just post it again here for you.

Thanks. I am really just at a loss of what I am doing wrong. If you could give a couple of ideas that would be amazing mate.

The rules had stated there must be some degree of difference. I have provided this and more. The form of government is very different which should be something in itself, the history is different. Everything I have done is different except the religion. And I see no issue in that since everyone else has been using an IRL religion.

I will work a bit more but I do not see any similarity between this Japan and IRL Imperial Japan. I am wondering if it is just because I have chosen a controversial nation in the eyes of many, and proceeded to outfit it with the same controversial religion. If the religion is not welcome in this RP though, I am happy to make the state religion Buddhism.

I have spent too long on the app to let it slip away so suggestions on how I should change Japan will be much appreciated.

EDIT: I have changed a few things around. This is a Japan that has no "Imperial" part of it at all now. This is a Japan ruled by a military dictatorship with the Emperor just a figurehead meant to inspire loyalty. This Japan is struggling even more so to obtain natural resources and it is one in which there is much higher dissident than IRL. It has actually seized colonies as a result.

I am very open to the suggestions still but kinda don't understand why I need to keep revising. It is VERY DIFFERENT! But never the less as I said before, if Shintoism is offensive, I am willing to have a Buddhist Japan or if you want radical change I will make it a Christian Japan. Although I would need help with that since I don't know jack about Christianity.

I will point out I have experience RPing... if you check out the ones I listed you'll see that I have done a similar RP to this, just staged in 1912. I used a very Japanese nation and that didn't hardly effect the roleplay.

The rules also state that all apps need a point of start and a build-up, which is exactly what Kai was trying to explain to you. Your concept is indeed a little different from real life Japan, but there were two issues - the first was that you didn't actually have a concept. You started with Meiji Japan, changed some names, changed some more names, and then removed the overthrowing of the Shogun and just replaced what the Emperor was doing in your previous app with the Shogun. You do not have a clear divergence, and you're not exploring the changes that would have been made properly. Is your main divergence the survival of the shogunate or the establishment of this Namura Shogtunate? Was your Sengoku Jidai different? You're mentioning the existence of four kingdoms, what exactly were those? What sort of kingdoms were those, what was their relation to the imperial court? Was there a shogunate ever before Namura, what happened with the daimyos? How exactly did Namura win the wars? From my meager understanding of it, people were already using guns, so there is no difference there. Moving on, if the Shogunate was focused on trade and was in a state of peace why does it suddenly start becoming militaristic and aggressive? Who is this nameless Shogun who is behind it? There are just too many questions.

I gave you some advice in my last post but you've ignored it. Find a divergence, and build things starting from there. Just trying to continuously patch your initial history isn't going to work. If you want your nation to be a surviving Shogunate, find the divergence that would explain it and work from there.

I'm also not sure why you're so defensive about it. Japan by itself is not controversial. Shintoism is also not offensive, it's a religion, and I'm also not why you're so focused upon the divinity of the Emperor. Shintoism seems to be very interesting religions with a lot of deities and rituals, the divinity of the Emperor is just a part of it.

The things that are a bit controversial are different. You have indeed stopped using the Kenpeitai, and I appreciate it, but you instead have "the Army back home is promoting a stance that Japanese are racially superior to all Asians and it is destiny, and their right to rule all of Asia.". This is what I would call a bit controversial, and this is what I would like you to remove.

[Tracian Empire]

Hi!

Currently working a difficult full-time job from home. I am very seriously considering waiving my Lenten break from NationStates just to join this. Please give me some time (no more than 24 hours) to consider joining. That being said:

Reservation

Nation Name: The Empire of Ethiopia (የኢትዮጵያ ንጉሠ ነገሥት መንግሥተ / Ye’ītiyop’iya Niguše Negešiti Menigišite), popularly known by Europe and the Americas as Abyssinia (አቢሲኒያ / Ābīsīnīya), and referred to colloquially by its own inhabitants as The Horn (ቀንድ / K’enidi).
Territory:

(Image)

(Would also like to request this portion of northern Ethiopia and Eritrea from Tracian if at all possible)
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

This will be my reservation for now. OIt will be subject to withdrawal, if I feel like I can't handle the load, or if I'm interested in other parts of the world. Right now, I'm considering taking up my old Ethiopian empire and figuring out a new storyline for it - possibly involving religious and/or dynastic conflicts; a Maori nation, along with its conflicts over indigenous rights, land troubles and Maori-pākehā relations; or another nation within the Middle East or Africa, perhaps something in Arabia, WamaZulu or Kurdistan - if Tracian and Kargintina don't object (although I doubt I'll be able to get it.)

I'll be back in a day after posting, at most, with the announcement of my withdrawal or an application.

I'll certainly accept your reservation right now, it would be great to have you back xD

Ethiopia was very interesting the last tine around, and I do feel like it could be very interesting here too. A Maori nation could be interesting considering how many colonial powers there are in Asia, but might be somewhat limited especially because of it. Arabia is of course free too, and it would be nice to get a proper Arabia, since we never had one xD

The Zulu are free right now too, and as for Kurdistan, yeah, that might be a bit complicated. Considering how many wars there were between the Romans of the Persians, the existence of a Kurdistan would be a bit difficult. It would also be a bit complicated OOCly - Anatolia is the core of the Roman state, and Persia is in not that great of a shape, so losing parts of Iraq and Iran wouldn't be great for them. Maybe we could further discuss things if this is the last idea that you could do, but it would be in a pretty impossible position.

[Sao Nova Europa]

I have revised a bit my app, adding more on history & politics and revising a little upwards the population (https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=36852386#p36852386).

[Pasong Tirad]

Hi!

Currently working a difficult full-time job from home. I am very seriously considering waiving my Lenten break from NationStates just to join this. Please give me some time (no more than 24 hours) to consider joining. That being said:

Reservation

Nation Name: The Empire of Ethiopia (የኢትዮጵያ ንጉሠ ነገሥት መንግሥተ / Ye’ītiyop’iya Niguše Negešiti Menigišite), popularly known by Europe and the Americas as Abyssinia (አቢሲኒያ / Ābīsīnīya), and referred to colloquially by its own inhabitants as The Horn (ቀንድ / K’enidi).
Territory:

(Image)

(Would also like to request this portion of northern Ethiopia and Eritrea from Tracian if at all possible)
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

This will be my reservation for now. OIt will be subject to withdrawal, if I feel like I can't handle the load, or if I'm interested in other parts of the world. Right now, I'm considering taking up my old Ethiopian empire and figuring out a new storyline for it - possibly involving religious and/or dynastic conflicts; a Maori nation, along with its conflicts over indigenous rights, land troubles and Maori-pākehā relations; or another nation within the Middle East or Africa, perhaps something in Arabia, WamaZulu or Kurdistan - if Tracian and Kargintina don't object (although I doubt I'll be able to get it.)

I'll be back in a day after posting, at most, with the announcement of my withdrawal or an application.

I'll certainly accept your reservation right now, it would be great to have you back xD

Ethiopia was very interesting the last tine around, and I do feel like it could be very interesting here too. A Maori nation could be interesting considering how many colonial powers there are in Asia, but might be somewhat limited especially because of it. Arabia is of course free too, and it would be nice to get a proper Arabia, since we never had one xD

The Zulu are free right now too, and as for Kurdistan, yeah, that might be a bit complicated. Considering how many wars there were between the Romans of the Persians, the existence of a Kurdistan would be a bit difficult. It would also be a bit complicated OOCly - Anatolia is the core of the Roman state, and Persia is in not that great of a shape, so losing parts of Iraq and Iran wouldn't be great for them. Maybe we could further discuss things if this is the last idea that you could do, but it would be in a pretty impossible position.

If I do decide to push through with my application, would you be willing to let go of your holdings in Ethiopia and Eritrea? Shown there in light brown.

[Tracian Empire]

I'll certainly accept your reservation right now, it would be great to have you back xD

Ethiopia was very interesting the last tine around, and I do feel like it could be very interesting here too. A Maori nation could be interesting considering how many colonial powers there are in Asia, but might be somewhat limited especially because of it. Arabia is of course free too, and it would be nice to get a proper Arabia, since we never had one xD

The Zulu are free right now too, and as for Kurdistan, yeah, that might be a bit complicated. Considering how many wars there were between the Romans of the Persians, the existence of a Kurdistan would be a bit difficult. It would also be a bit complicated OOCly - Anatolia is the core of the Roman state, and Persia is in not that great of a shape, so losing parts of Iraq and Iran wouldn't be great for them. Maybe we could further discuss things if this is the last idea that you could do, but it would be in a pretty impossible position.

If I do decide to push through with my application, would you be willing to let go of your holdings in Ethiopia and Eritrea? Shown there in light brown.

I was going to propose exactly that in the morning, but I forgot xD

I don't even remember how I ended up with thing - I think that I accidentally added them to the Roman territory in the past iteration, and you accepted it and included it into your history, but if you want them back here I'll certainly have them be Ethiopian

[Tracian Empire]

So what was the changes you wanted for my App?

I was under the impression that you wanted to make your nation at least a little more industrialized, so I was waiting for you to edit your app.

If you don't want to, I'll review it soon - historical details between us can be discussed later on.

[The Felan Federation]

So. About Spain and Central America and the New World.

How much did Spain conquer in this world precisely? How much did the natives gain/suffer? Also...how would things have developed in Central America, taking into the account things in Europe?

As always, I'm not sure that I can answer. The presence of European colonies on the New World indicates that they started like in real life, but we had apps for surviving native states in previous iterations, and it's not impossible for us to receive such apps here too.

I guess it really depends on what you want for your nation, the exact effects of colonialism could have varied depending on the area.

I will however try to contact the Spanish player and see if he is still interested, the period of reservations is expiring soon.

Okay then. From what I have seen over everything. Perhaps Spain colonized the regions first, had more trouble then later when all the wars and issues kept fucking over Zentral-Germans many migrated to the Central American lands which were 'tamed' yet had plenty of issues thus the Spanish Crown offered settlers incentives to go there?

While later on, with a more and more larger growing German-population taking over things ala War of Independence ways? Kinda like what happened when the Americans invaded Texas, by having more people immigrate to the lands?

[The Felan Federation]

Alright, so, I do want to start by saying that this app is absolutely incredible. The ammount of detail present here is pretty much unbelievable, and this is what makes reviewing it a bit difficult

I know that this app was already accepted once, in the previous iteration, and that our discussions there led to a compromise, but that was happening with a different OP and management. I am obviously always trying to be objective, but there are a few things that I thought were issues back then, and that I feel like I have to mention here. But I'm sure that they can be discussed xD

The first issue is a bit more difficult to describe, and it's the main reason it took me so long to finish this review. I feel like there are just several contradictions in some parts of the app. It might be more of an issue of wording than of concepts necessarily, but it does get a bit confusing sometimes. The country has reasonable taxes, and yet it sustains extensive public education and public welfare systems. It is very free-market and capitalistic, and yet the government controls and funds important parts of the industry. It industrialized a lot more aggressively and rapidly than France in real life, and yet it seems to enjoy extensive worker rights and has powerful unions. It's industrialized and urbanized, with a declining agriculture, and yet it is the largest wine producer in the world, an honor that France doesn't have in real life either. It is incredibly well focused on the army and yet it has a navy that is sufficient to control the Western Mediterranean, while it has two neighbors that would presumably have stronger naval forces. The Army is not restricted by tradition and always prides itself on innovation, and yet its units have traditions going back centuries. I know that this sounds like nitpicking, but my point is that it's just too easy to read the app and perceive the country as too perfect. I do feel like the country should have a bit more issues from some points of view to balance things out, but I'm not sure what to suggest since I don't want to intrude on your concept too much, you know?


Now, the second issue is a little more concrete - it's about the army. I of course do understand that a strong army is very important to your concept of this France, and I have nothing against the French Army being among the, or perhaps even the best armed force around - but I do feel like it's just a bit too powerful in some aspects. The present need for the army to be strong would also be somewhat decreased when compared to France's past. France defeated its rivals just a few decades ago, and it would make sense for the military to grow somewhat complacent because of such a victory. Looking at it objectively, France isn't in an impossible situation anymore. The one traditional weak border of France, the northeastern one, is shared with a Zentraleuropa that has just been spiraling further and further out of control,so it would be clear to any foreign observer that the divided military of the Germans is not a worthy rival. And to the south, the borders are easily defensible, and are shared with an enemy also focused on defense in the WRE, and an with an enemy that doesn't strike me as particularly offensive either in Spain. I do think that a certain complacence in the High Command would be an acceptable weakness to balance the otherwise excellent army, and if you have any other proposals instead, feel free to share them!

Continuing with the army however, there are two things that are going to receive a hard no from me - the French theorizing the creeping barrage, and preparing to use gas attacks. And the reason for this is two-fold. The first is that I simply don't believe that wargames and theories are enough to make the general staff come up with something that took two or three years of invaluable and brutal world war experience for real life nations to devise. Even more so since the circumstances that could compel the French to think about that are not fully here. The creeping barrage and the usage of poison gas were both designed in order to break the stalemate of trenches. Not only has France already broken through the defenses of its enemies a few decades ago, but like mentioned above, the one theater of war where such tactics might be used is not enough of an issue. The creeping barrage and poison gas would both be more difficult to use in the Alps or in the Pyrenees, and are as such unlikely to come up as theories about how to break through the Varian Wall as an example. And the second reason is more from an OOC perspective - the French Army is already a terrifying force, granting it tactics and weapons that were properly developed a decade later would be unfair to everyone else. As for machine guns, I am a bit more on the fence, but I tend to not believe that the French would integrate it on a platoon level - machine guns at this point are somewhat heavy and defensive in purpose, which would be contrary to the French offensive strategies. If I remember correctly, the German Army, that was the most advanced around in real life, was only integrating them at regiment level before WW1.


The third issue is the smallest - in regards to history, Kai is against the French just easily punching through the Varian Wall, advancing in the WRE without any resistance and sacking Rome during the wars of Guerin. It doesn't make that much sense - advancing through the fortified Alps would be difficult and bloody even for the best of troops, and the Romans would have fought every step of the way, while sacking Rome in the end doesn't achieve anything in particular - it just seems like something to crown the French victory. It is still perfectly fine for the French to invade the WRE and win, but there would have been resistance, and the further south they would have advanced, the more violent the attacks would have been during their withdrawal.

We can absolutely discuss all of those issues. We reached a compromise before. I'm sure we can do the same now.

I get the "have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too" objection to some parts of the app. I think some of those things need to be changed, some were a matter of bad writing, and some I'm willing to defend. I'm going to go through your list, and respond to each issue.

The tension between free-market economics and defense contracts, and between public welfare and mid-level taxes, and between industrialization and unionization - all of those, I think, represent the same fundamental point, and it's one that I'll defend. France is a multiparty democracy. Its politics are a politics of compromise. France is not the most free-market, business-friendly state in Europe. That honor goes to Scandinavia. It is not the most militarized, state-directed economy in the world. That is the Adamite Order, or maybe the Taiping. It's somewhere in between: striking a balance between competing interests through democratic bargaining. That accounts for a lot of the "both-and" tone of the French economy.

But at a deeper level, I think the French economy also makes sense as a cohesive whole - since those factors you mentioned can also be paired up in different ways. Taxes are somewhat low because of high levels of unionization: since the French middle class is large and has more taxable income, you can tax everybody at lower levels and come up with the same amount of money. That public revenue, in turn, can fund further, aggressive industrialization (through defense contracts) and public welfare systems: it is a kind of virtuous cycle. A well-educated workforce with lots of industrial jobs then feeds back into worker unionization and democratic engagement. I don't think these features are as inconsistent as they seem; in fact, I think they are mutually reinforcing. As I understand it, that kind of outside-the-box thinking is part of the point in Alt-Div.

On the other hand, you are right about wine production, and agriculture more broadly. I will gladly cede that right to whomever wants it; the WRE seems like a plausible candidate. That is just a fair catch, especially since France is now likely more reliant on agricultural imports from India.

With regard to the Army, I hear you once again. I am glad we agree that, given France's strategic position, an extremely powerful army is a logical necessity. Thus, I accept your primary critique: it would make a lot of sense for the French General Staff to become somewhat overconfident under current circumstances.

That said, I want to draw a distinction between overconfidence and complacency. The French General Staff probably regards its army as invincible. That overconfidence in and of itself is a weakness. But it sees its army as invincible precisely because it is not complacent: because it is constantly running wargames, testing new equipment, innovating and changing. That creates issues of its own, as my app reflects. But it doesn't lead to an army resting on its laurels and failing to keep up with the times. This also ties into your point about how the French Army has both distinguished traditions and a high level of innovation: its traditional identity reflects its hubris and overconfidence, while its innovation reflects its refusal to fall into complacency.

So that's the compromise I would propose: overconfidence but not complacency. An army that underestimates its opponents, and makes mistakes accordingly, but continues to innovate constantly at the same time. I hope that preserves my essential concept for the French Army while incorporating your critique.

When it comes to the hard no's, I will yield on two of the three: I will scrap the creeping barrage, and scrap the poison gas. Your arguments for why the French Army would fail to come up with those are completely convincing. Machine guns, I think, are a different story. The machine guns that the French have integrated at the platoon level are the equivalent of the Madsen gun or the Benet-Mercie or the Chauchat, not of the (heavy, cumbersome) Maxim. IRL, in 1903, the French military was already talking about how "the machine gun must learn to walk." While nobody took that advice in our timeline, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that an alternative armed force could have done so. The technology already existed to make it happen.

With regard to the history, I am prepared to compromise again, but I want to raise an issue in return: Kai's app already includes a lot of French humiliation in this same period - POWs being marched to the border through jeering crowds, and so on. I think that balances out the embarrassment of the sack of Rome. That said, I will play up the Verian Wall campaign more, representing it as a brutal slog rather than a triumph. That's a fair critique. When it comes to Rome, here's what I propose: either both Kai and I tone down our embarrassment of each other during this period, or we agree - in essence - that one ill turn deserves another, and that each app paints this period as a pretty brutal time for the other nation. Personally, given the trauma of the era, I prefer the latter option. But I'll accept either.

I think that covers everything, but I might be wrong. Did I miss anything? What do you think?

There is one thing, if I may offer my two cents Mister France.

You mentioned a lot about 'compromise' but as we know about all humans - we are rather...bad at compromising unless we have a...unifying agenda or common interest. Wouldn't so much need for compromise lead to political gridlock? As the army wants more funding, the workers want more benefits and the nobles want more rights and privileges?

Just an idea, I thought to throw out there.

[Akkaga]

What culture would not!Mexico most likely be?