1906: Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC-CLOSED]

[Tracian Empire]

Depending on what the history of Royalist Flanders is, this might not work out.

Reservation

Nation Name: The Empire of New Holland
Territory:
Mainland: Southern West Australia, South Australia, Victoria, Tasmania
Slave Colonies: Northern Madagascar, Coastline of Kenya, Island of Zanzibar

#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

It would be possible for the Dutch to have colonized Australia, however, I really doubt the ability of an Australian state to maintain African colonies in the face of many European rivals.

I am also slightly confused about them being slave colonies - if you mean that they're used in order to procure slaves that would be latter sold, I don't think that the Asian slave trade organized by Korea is profitable enough to justify the import of African slaves.

[Axis Asteroid]

Finally done!

-snip-

I love the concept, and it's an amazing app, accepted!

I'll leave it to you and Oscal to further discuss any potential Asian history questions, but it is very nice to have something like the Taiping in Asia xD

Sweet. I also plan on adding on to that 40 or so year gap in my history after discussing with Oscal. I can see a small war or two between the two happening in the intervening years as Taiping tries to spread its initial crusade beyond China and Korea in turn trying to grapple or contain the absolute nightmare/crapshoot that their next door neighbor turned into. xD

As for the history behind the Korean portion of Manchuria, I was thinking of a possible intervention or invasion on their part during the civil war between Taiping and the Qing, during which they seized the territory, just to add another source of tension beyond the obvious ones but I'll have to see what Oscal puts in his app first.

[Reverend Norv]

This (the Australia reservation) actually raises an interesting question: how widespread is slavery in this world, and what does it look like? It's clearly important to Korea's colonies, though whether it's true birth-to-death chattel slavery or something more transactional is unclear, at least to me, from the app. And did the two Roman Empires retain slavery, or was it abolished at some point? How about in Angelond?

Gaul's slave economy collapsed with the latifundia in the fifth century, and by the time of the Forty Year's War, slavery was a distant memory. When France conquered Hispaniola from Spain in the late seventeenth century, it secured the loyalty of the island largely by manumitting all the local slaves. Since then, slavery has been illegal throughout Greater France, though conditions for native workers in some French colonies - especially the Cape and the West African coast, which are still run by joint-stock corporations - frequently come perilously close to legal bondage.

[Tracian Empire]

I love the concept, and it's an amazing app, accepted!

I'll leave it to you and Oscal to further discuss any potential Asian history questions, but it is very nice to have something like the Taiping in Asia xD

Sweet. I also plan on adding on to that 40 or so year gap in my history after discussing with Oscal. I can see a small war or two between the two happening in the intervening years as Taiping tries to spread its initial crusade beyond China and Korea in turn trying to grapple or contain the absolute nightmare/crapshoot that their next door neighbor has become. xD

As for the history behind the Korean portion of Manchuria, I was thinking of a possible intervention or invasion on their part during the civil war between Taiping and the Qing, during which they seized the territory, just to add another source of tension beyond the obvious ones but I'll have to see what Oscal puts in his app first.

From what I do remember, it might be possible for that part of Manchuria to have been a part of Korea ever since the Joseon, but you would have to talk with him about it xD

[New Demorvian]

Depending on what the history of Royalist Flanders is, this might not work out.

Reservation

Nation Name: The Empire of New Holland
Territory:
Mainland: Southern West Australia, South Australia, Victoria, Tasmania
Slave Colonies: Northern Madagascar, Coastline of Kenya, Island of Zanzibar

#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

It would be possible for the Dutch to have colonized Australia, however, I really doubt the ability of an Australian state to maintain African colonies in the face of many European rivals.

I am also slightly confused about them being slave colonies - if you mean that they're used in order to procure slaves that would be latter sold, I don't think that the Asian slave trade organized by Korea is profitable enough to justify the import of African slaves.

I'll be sure to elaborate more on the slave part when I start making my app

[Tracian Empire]

This actually raises an interesting question: how widespread is slavery in this world, and what does it look like? It's clearly important to Korea's colonies, though whether it's true birth-to-death chattel slavery or something more transactional is unclear, at least to me, from the app. And did the two Roman Empires retain slavery, or was it abolished at some point? How about in Angelond?

Gaul's slave economy collapsed with the latifundia in the fifth century, and by the time of the Forty Year's War, slavery was a distant memory. When France conquered Hispaniola from Spain in the late seventeenth century, it secured the loyalty of the island largely by manumitting all the local slaves. Since then, slavery has been illegal throughout Greater France, though conditions for native workers in some French colonies - especially the Cape and the West African coast, which are still run by joint-stock corporations - frequently come perilously close to legal bondage.

Well, slavery is certainly not widespread in the two Roman Empires. The slave economy of Italy collapsed with the initial fall of the WRE, and the ERE's collapsed following the Muslim Conquests.

Now I can't speak for Kai, but in the ERE at least slavery is still mildly tolerated, but in three forms. The first is not even properly considered to be slavery, and it's simply the Roman authorities using rebellious non-citizens, especially in Egypt and later Sudan for public works - the Suez Canal was one of such. It was forced work, but the workers were paid a little and eventually released, so it doesn't fully count.

The second form is actual slavery, the aristocracy tends to employ the services of foreign slaves, but it's somewhat limited, it is expensive.

And the third is formed by eunuchs - the Romans still employ eunuchs in their administration, and some of these are procured through slavery, but said eunuchs are liberated upon entering the civil service.

Overall, for the ERE, slavery was never fully outlawed, since the Corpus Iuris Civilis and the Basilika still form the core of Eastern law, but it fell out of use.

[Tracian Empire]

It would be possible for the Dutch to have colonized Australia, however, I really doubt the ability of an Australian state to maintain African colonies in the face of many European rivals.

I am also slightly confused about them being slave colonies - if you mean that they're used in order to procure slaves that would be latter sold, I don't think that the Asian slave trade organized by Korea is profitable enough to justify the import of African slaves.

I'll be sure to elaborate more on the slave part when I start making my app

I would appreciate it if you'd elaborate it as quickly as possible because I need to decide whether to grant you that claim or not

[Sao Nova Europa]

In South America, Spanish colonization went, pretty much, as in RL? I am thinking of making an app as a nation in Chile and Argentina (capitalist, liberal republic - think of a South American version of sorts of RL US).

[Tracian Empire]

In South America, Spanish colonization went, pretty much, as in RL? I am thinking of making an app as a nation in Chile and Argentina (capitalist, liberal republic - think of a South American version of sorts of RL US).

It is a little difficult to say - since the player who reserved Spain has yet to join us in this thread, but I do assume that Chile and Argentina would have most likely been Spanish.

[New Demorvian]

I'll be sure to elaborate more on the slave part when I start making my app

I would appreciate it if you'd elaborate it as quickly as possible because I need to decide whether to grant you that claim or not

Okay, so it's really similar to the pre-Civil War American South, with large agricultural plantations in what fertile lands there are. It also wouldn't just be Africans that would be enslaved, as the aboriginals would also be used as slaves. The slaves would only be used within New Holland, and not sold to the outside world.

[Sao Nova Europa]

In South America, Spanish colonization went, pretty much, as in RL? I am thinking of making an app as a nation in Chile and Argentina (capitalist, liberal republic - think of a South American version of sorts of RL US).

It is a little difficult to say - since the player who reserved Spain has yet to join us in this thread, but I do assume that Chile and Argentina would have most likely been Spanish.

OK. Can I make an app post now (and if the Spanish player thinks it contradicts what he has in mind, I can edit it) or should I wait? I would prefer the first but I am OK with waiting too.

[Tracian Empire]

I would appreciate it if you'd elaborate it as quickly as possible because I need to decide whether to grant you that claim or not

Okay, so it's really similar to the pre-Civil War American South, with large agricultural plantations in what fertile lands there are. It also wouldn't just be Africans that would be enslaved, as the aboriginals would also be used as slaves. The slaves would only be used within New Holland, and not sold to the outside world.

Hmm, the concept is interesting, but I am not sure how feasible it would be - for two reasons. The first is related to Australia - as far as I am aware, cotton does grow there, but Australia as a whole has a very limited percent of land that is viable for agriculture. Even if the state would actively support such an industry, New Holland would likely be unable to compete with other cotton producing regions effectively.

Secondly, the usage of the colonies is complicated - taking African natives away to slavery would be difficult to organize in a post-Scramble Africa, and like I said before, it would be difficult for New Holland to maintain colonies to begin with. The IRL population of Australia around this time was of around 4 million, and it would have to compete with European and Asian powers.

[Tracian Empire]

It is a little difficult to say - since the player who reserved Spain has yet to join us in this thread, but I do assume that Chile and Argentina would have most likely been Spanish.

OK. Can I make an app post now (and if the Spanish player thinks it contradicts what he has in mind, I can edit it) or should I wait? I would prefer the first but I am OK with waiting too.

You could start to work on one - while Spanish colonialism might be a little limited when compared to real life, I see no major issues with the concept of Spanish colonies in Chile and Argentina regardless of how history might change. If you want to, you could take a look at the app the Spanish player had in the previous iteration of this roleplay. I'm not sure if he intends to follow the exact same concept here, but it is better than nothing.

And when he does join us, I am sure that we can discuss and fix any possible issues xD

[Nouveau Quebecois]

I would appreciate it if you'd elaborate it as quickly as possible because I need to decide whether to grant you that claim or not

Okay, so it's really similar to the pre-Civil War American South, with large agricultural plantations in what fertile lands there are. It also wouldn't just be Africans that would be enslaved, as the aboriginals would also be used as slaves. The slaves would only be used within New Holland, and not sold to the outside world.

The general history my nation is a popular Catholic overthrow of the governments in Holland and Belgium. New Holland could easily be formed out of the surviving Monarchy.

[Reverend Norv]

Okay, so it's really similar to the pre-Civil War American South, with large agricultural plantations in what fertile lands there are. It also wouldn't just be Africans that would be enslaved, as the aboriginals would also be used as slaves. The slaves would only be used within New Holland, and not sold to the outside world.

Hmm, the concept is interesting, but I am not sure how feasible it would be - for two reasons. The first is related to Australia - as far as I am aware, cotton does grow there, but Australia as a whole has a very limited percent of land that is viable for agriculture. Even if the state would actively support such an industry, New Holland would likely be unable to compete with other cotton producing regions effectively.

Secondly, the usage of the colonies is complicated - taking African natives away to slavery would be difficult to organize in a post-Scramble Africa, and like I said before, it would be difficult for New Holland to maintain colonies to begin with. The IRL population of Australia around this time was of around 4 million, and it would have to compete with European and Asian powers.

Perhaps if New Holland were very good at playing the powers off against each other? In the Indian Ocean between East Africa and Australia, those would presumably be the Koreans, the French/Mughals, and to a lesser extent the ERE and maybe Angelond. While a lot of those powers might find this sort of polity distasteful, skillful diplomacy could potentially lead each to see it as preferable to control of Zanzibar and Madagascar by its rivals.

[Tracian Empire]

Hmm, the concept is interesting, but I am not sure how feasible it would be - for two reasons. The first is related to Australia - as far as I am aware, cotton does grow there, but Australia as a whole has a very limited percent of land that is viable for agriculture. Even if the state would actively support such an industry, New Holland would likely be unable to compete with other cotton producing regions effectively.

Secondly, the usage of the colonies is complicated - taking African natives away to slavery would be difficult to organize in a post-Scramble Africa, and like I said before, it would be difficult for New Holland to maintain colonies to begin with. The IRL population of Australia around this time was of around 4 million, and it would have to compete with European and Asian powers.

Perhaps if New Holland were very good at playing the powers off against each other? In the Indian Ocean between East Africa and Australia, those would presumably be the Koreans, the French/Mughals, and to a lesser extent the ERE and maybe Angelond. While a lot of those powers might find this sort of polity distasteful, skillful diplomacy could potentially lead each to see it as preferable to control of Zanzibar and Madagascar by its rivals.

That is indeed a good idea, and it could perhaps work. If we assume that New Holland was part of a larger Dutch colonial empire, this could be what survived, and even a cotton industry in Australia might be explained by it having simply been intended for the profit of the homeland.

Reliance on such a practice would however still have the issues that I mentioned above, so playing such a nation might be a bit difficult - but the concept is definitively interesting.

[TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON]

Reservation

Nation Name: Empire of Tsuyoi Nihon; English: Empire of Mighty Japan
Territory: Japan including Half of Sakhalin Island; Papua New Guinea; Guam; Marina Islands; Kuril Islands
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

[Tracian Empire]

Reservation

Nation Name: Empire of Akita Nihon
Territory: Japan including half of Sakhalin
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

I would appreciate it if you would have a fully English name alongside the Japanese name - I know that Nihon is supposed to mean Japan, but I'm not sure what Akita is supposed to mean.

Japan would also be clearly able to have some colonies in Southeast Asia, so you could add some to your claim.

[New Demorvian]

Perhaps if New Holland were very good at playing the powers off against each other? In the Indian Ocean between East Africa and Australia, those would presumably be the Koreans, the French/Mughals, and to a lesser extent the ERE and maybe Angelond. While a lot of those powers might find this sort of polity distasteful, skillful diplomacy could potentially lead each to see it as preferable to control of Zanzibar and Madagascar by its rivals.

That is indeed a good idea, and it could perhaps work. If we assume that New Holland was part of a larger Dutch colonial empire, this could be what survived, and even a cotton industry in Australia might be explained by it having simply been intended for the profit of the homeland.

Reliance on such a practice would however still have the issues that I mentioned above, so playing such a nation might be a bit difficult - but the concept is definitively interesting.

First of all, the colonial empire would be relatively minor compared to other countries. Besides, not all of the plantations would be used for cotton. After the Dutch leadership would've fled Europe, they would've made it so the plantations had to grow more food for the people who fled to New Holland. The African colonies could also just be Dutch colonies who remained loyal to the exile government.

[Tracian Empire]

That is indeed a good idea, and it could perhaps work. If we assume that New Holland was part of a larger Dutch colonial empire, this could be what survived, and even a cotton industry in Australia might be explained by it having simply been intended for the profit of the homeland.

Reliance on such a practice would however still have the issues that I mentioned above, so playing such a nation might be a bit difficult - but the concept is definitively interesting.

First of all, the colonial empire would be relatively minor compared to other countries. Besides, not all of the plantations would be used for cotton. After the Dutch leadership would've fled Europe, they would've made it so the plantations had to grow more food for the people who fled to New Holland. The African colonies could also just be Dutch colonies who remained loyal to the exile government.

It is minor, but like Rev said, it would require an active effort to maintain it. Colonial wars between large European powers in the late 19th century were somewhat limited due to efforts to maintain peace on the continent, but with the homeland of the Dutch out of the picture, there would have certainly been a lot of nations interested in taking over those colonies.

I am not saying that you can't have your concept - all I'm trying to do is to make sure that you understand that your nation would be in a moderately difficult position ICly, and that you'd have to be very active diplomatically.

[Nouveau Quebecois]

That is indeed a good idea, and it could perhaps work. If we assume that New Holland was part of a larger Dutch colonial empire, this could be what survived, and even a cotton industry in Australia might be explained by it having simply been intended for the profit of the homeland.

Reliance on such a practice would however still have the issues that I mentioned above, so playing such a nation might be a bit difficult - but the concept is definitively interesting.

First of all, the colonial empire would be relatively minor compared to other countries. Besides, not all of the plantations would be used for cotton. After the Dutch leadership would've fled Europe, they would've made it so the plantations had to grow more food for the people who fled to New Holland. The African colonies could also just be Dutch colonies who remained loyal to the exile government.

I have to retain the Congo.

[Alt Div Admin]

It is a little difficult to say - since the player who reserved Spain has yet to join us in this thread, but I do assume that Chile and Argentina would have most likely been Spanish.

OK. Can I make an app post now (and if the Spanish player thinks it contradicts what he has in mind, I can edit it) or should I wait? I would prefer the first but I am OK with waiting too.

I'm adding you to the reservations list, but could you please also make a formal reservation?

[Die Adria Konfoderation]

Reservation

Nation Name: The Kingdom of Hungary
Territory: Borders of WWII Hungary
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

[TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON]

Reservation

Nation Name: Empire of Akita Nihon
Territory: Japan including half of Sakhalin
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

I would appreciate it if you would have a fully English name alongside the Japanese name - I know that Nihon is supposed to mean Japan, but I'm not sure what Akita is supposed to mean.

Japan would also be clearly able to have some colonies in Southeast Asia, so you could add some to your claim.

I'll make sure to do that in the actual application

[Tracian Empire]

I would appreciate it if you would have a fully English name alongside the Japanese name - I know that Nihon is supposed to mean Japan, but I'm not sure what Akita is supposed to mean.

Japan would also be clearly able to have some colonies in Southeast Asia, so you could add some to your claim.

I'll make sure to do that in the actual application

I would appreciate if you’d edit your reservation too - I like to use official names in the reservations list xD