New Civilizations (2nd Era, OOC, Always Open )

[Orostan]

The reason I am asking all of these questions is twofold: on one hand, I am really curious how each legal system works. But on the other hand, I wish to remind everyone that law can be very complex, and people not trained in law are going to make mistakes while drafting a legal code. Creating law out of thin air as someone untrained in law is very difficult, and will have unforeseen consequences.

One of the major factions in my Chinese government will be legalists who will love making giant monuments and extremely specific legal codes. I will have fun with them.

[UniversalCommons]

Consent, need, and duty. You have a duty to only take your share of the harvest, you can only consent to trade, you have a duty to keep your prices low and reasonable, yoy have a duty to take care of the poor

Yes, but when a trade happens, do you just need to shake hands? Or is there something else required? And if you trade something which you are not allowed to trade, does the trade then lose its legal value?

It is by a transfer document in the courts much like the Ancient Egyptians or an assertion of community witness. The matriarch or the patriarch in the family would decide. Like today, there would be disputes between family members. We copied some of the Egyptian laws early to fill in holes to our codes. This is why we send out people to be counted and ask where their property is for both tax and inheritance reasons. However, there are other types of property temple or organizational lands which can be owned by a temple or organization. There is also some property in common-- like the community gardens, the House of Scholars, and a few other things. Certain natural resources are considered to be the property of the state and are under long term management-- stewardship.

There is no lawyer in this case. The case is presided over by a scholar and a warrior who is there to help enforce the case. Also community members can be called to serve as witnesses. The precedings are often public. Bearing false witness is treated harshly as being dishonorable.

Do you need a court for every transfer of property? Or only for real property? It seems a bit of a hassle to have to go to court every time you buy bread, for instance.

I was thinking of larger property like houses and pieces of land.

You would exchange trade items for most property (trade metals in most cases by specific weights). However, there are instances where if you worked on a farm, you might be paid in grain, or as a laborer, you might be paid in trade metal and beer. There are times when the government may ration things like bread during a famine. Or if you worked in a community garden you would get some of the vegetables and flowers you grew. Or if you held land in common, you might get some of the proceeds from the land. There is a common social contract where people follow custom. Custom in many cases is stronger than law. It has always been this way in many cultures. Instilling values is as important as law. Too many laws and not enough morality can lead to disaster.

If there is no lawyer, how do the parties know what proceedings are required?

Like in Egypt there is something like a bailiff, a warrior who watches to see if they behave themselves and can bring them in. Once you are brought in, you are on the court records which are public which becomes a mark on you, unless the person is found innocent. Both the bailiff and scholar can be reviewed as well.

There will be no private property or monetary exchange within my bit of China for purposes other than external trade, but personal property changes hands if all parties consent freely and nothing else.

Does your system allow for donations? Or does just the giving party need to consent?

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

The reason I am asking all of these questions is twofold: on one hand, I am really curious how each legal system works. But on the other hand, I wish to remind everyone that law can be very complex, and people not trained in law are going to make mistakes while drafting a legal code. Creating law out of thin air as someone untrained in law is very difficult, and will have unforeseen consequences.

One of the major factions in my Chinese government will be legalists who will love making giant monuments and extremely specific legal codes. I will have fun with them.

I love them already.

Does your system allow for donations? Or does just the giving party need to consent?

Donations are fine, those are considered gifts and there’s no regulations on those because both involved parties will be consenting to the exchange. Besides that donations for charity aren’t necessary because everyone is guaranteed food and shelter from the public stock if it can be provided.

Alright, but that is transfer of property, too.

When I ask questions about legal systems, I'm not so much asking what kinds of property transfer are allowed or not, but how property works in the first place. Because property rights, and the ways those property rights get transferred from one person to another, are also a part of law. Even more fundamental perhaps than a criminal code.

Yes, but when a trade happens, do you just need to shake hands? Or is there something else required? And if you trade something which you are not allowed to trade, does the trade then lose its legal value?

All you need to do is shake hands, and, incase of a dispute, have a witness. Almost nothing is not allowed to be traded, except for humans, and stolen goods. Inwhich case... it is not trade because humans are not property. Human's LABOR, yes, can be, but in such case they arent selling themselves, but rather, joining that person's household for a certain ammt of time. If the goods are stolen, and enough witnesses are found, the property is taken by someone designated by the arbiter to be given back to the owner, and some sort of damages are paid in reparation.

So, wait... No trade is allowed, then? How do people get their food?




Apart from that, I think I'm going to make a little document with all the problems than can arise if your civil code has issues, perhaps people can get some fun ideas out of that.

[Orostan]

One of the major factions in my Chinese government will be legalists who will love making giant monuments and extremely specific legal codes. I will have fun with them.

I love them already.

Donations are fine, those are considered gifts and there’s no regulations on those because both involved parties will be consenting to the exchange. Besides that donations for charity aren’t necessary because everyone is guaranteed food and shelter from the public stock if it can be provided.

Alright, but that is transfer of property, too.

When I ask questions about legal systems, I'm not so much asking what kinds of property transfer are allowed or not, but how property works in the first place. Because property rights, and the ways those property rights get transferred from one person to another, are also a part of law. Even more fundamental perhaps than a criminal code.

I’m happy that my legalists have at least one fan!

Private property doesn’t exist. The means of production (tools, farms, and industries) all belong to the public. Personal property, as in stuff people own and use themselves, is the only legally recognized form of property. Personal property exchanges only require consent to happen and one person’s personal property is inherited by their family when they die.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

All you need to do is shake hands, and, incase of a dispute, have a witness. Almost nothing is not allowed to be traded, except for humans, and stolen goods. Inwhich case... it is not trade because humans are not property. Human's LABOR, yes, can be, but in such case they arent selling themselves, but rather, joining that person's household for a certain ammt of time. If the goods are stolen, and enough witnesses are found, the property is taken by someone designated by the arbiter to be given back to the owner, and some sort of damages are paid in reparation.

So, wait... No trade is allowed, then? How do people get their food?

No, perhaps I was unclear. "Nothing is not allowed to be traded". If you have worked on it, you are entitled to a portion of it. All those who work the lands get a share of the field, its divided up at harvest time. You can trade whatever you want - so long as it isnt stolen or you know slaves. Only forced servitude in the form of joining a family occurs as a settlement of disputes

[Holy Tedalonia]

So, wait... No trade is allowed, then? How do people get their food?

No, perhaps I was unclear. "Nothing is not allowed to be traded". If you have worked on it, you are entitled to a portion of it. All those who work the lands get a share of the field, its divided up at harvest time. You can trade whatever you want - so long as it isnt stolen or you know slaves. Only forced servitude in the form of joining a family occurs as a settlement of disputes

Sounds like a workers union cult culture. All you need is to sacrifice a virgin for the harvest.

[Orostan]

No, perhaps I was unclear. "Nothing is not allowed to be traded". If you have worked on it, you are entitled to a portion of it. All those who work the lands get a share of the field, its divided up at harvest time. You can trade whatever you want - so long as it isnt stolen or you know slaves. Only forced servitude in the form of joining a family occurs as a settlement of disputes

Sounds like a workers union cult culture. All you need is to sacrifice a virgin for the harvest.

It sounds like primitive market socialism in a few ways, but I agree that it could use more virgin sacrifices.

[3rdBritan]

Sounds like a workers union cult culture. All you need is to sacrifice a virgin for the harvest.

It sounds like primitive market socialism in a few ways, but I agree that it could use more virgin sacrifices.

Hope the commitern allys with you

[Bortslovakia]

The reason I am asking all of these questions is twofold: on one hand, I am really curious how each legal system works. But on the other hand, I wish to remind everyone that law can be very complex, and people not trained in law are going to make mistakes while drafting a legal code. Creating law out of thin air as someone untrained in law is very difficult, and will have unforeseen consequences.

Not to say this isn't a fair point, but you also need to acknowledge that a lot of those resulting loopholes simply have to exist for practicality. Of those civilizations that began with effectively no written language whatsoever, Hibernia and the Imperium probably have the highest literacy rates as of 2975 BCE (namely because G and I have both designed our education systems around providing easy access for seasonal workers, which make up the plurality of our respective populations). Given that I doubt we're even pushing double digits, making formal contracts between two individuals practically useless unless you have an independent arbitrator. The law codes of Hibernia may account for private property, merchants might keep written records of their transactions, and certain individuals have the option of drafting specific contracts for high value trades, but the simple fact is the vast majority of people own something because... they own it. If disputes arise, they are settled through common sense. Given the state of the world, that's about the best you can expect if you're a rural farmer living far away from the centers of power in your respective country.

Anyways, it's disappointing that no one has acknowledged the IC is now a year old.

[Europa Undivided]

Actually stagnant tbh.

Imma take the equality, but brutally execute the dumb stuff. When everyone is equal, no need to worry about destabilizing shit like (((free love))).

Go home liberal, we don’t need your ideological prattling.

In all seriousness, authors gonna do what authors gonna do.

so how much will you whine when i execute a christian

Russia will posit itself as the protector of Jews and Christians, so probably a lot, lol.

[Orostan]

so how much will you whine when i execute a christian

Russia will posit itself as the protector of Jews and Christians, so probably a lot, lol.

ok mongol tributary

[Europa Undivided]

Russia will posit itself as the protector of Jews and Christians, so probably a lot, lol.

ok mongol tributary

Dude we expected the Mongols to come centuries in advance

[Orostan]

ok mongol tributary

Dude we expected the Mongols to come centuries in advance

ok mongol tributary

[UniversalCommons]

I would contest that. What G is using is a created language with a completely new structure, loosely based on both a new written and linguistic structure. Imperial Common did not exist before. He also has limited distribution of written paper. There is not as much writing available to the populace. Among the bureaucracy, the fountain pens go to mainly the elite. Also, a lot of the written word is focused on the merchant class and the engineers. There is some prestige in learning to read and write. The main source of popular literacy seems to come from the written Bible with some schools for the young. There is a 10% literacy rate which is being quoted. He has a shortage of literate engineers and merchants.

Access to seasonal workers is one thing. Reason is another. Why would a seasonal worker learn to read and write? Unless there is a clear advantage like becoming a carpenter or engineer or merchant in Gs case, there is not an incentive to learn. The bible is also an incentive for G as well.

There is no indication of advantage in learning to read and write for the Greater Confederacy Commonwealth. Where does it lead for the Commonwealth-- do you became a shipwright, a carpenter, a scholar. What would a person want to read?

The highest literacy rate is probably in Ur. They already have a written language and the first thing remotely like schools, teachers in home who make their living from reading and writing which we came in and copied to create viable teaching. This probably was built on with basic schools. Ur mentions having creches and associations of scholars. I would imagine their literacy rate is at least double that of the Commonwealth or the Imperium. They started kindergartens and massive factories for basic goods. The scribe class which already had prestige was expanded to include everyone. I would imagine also when they created the kindergarten system, it probably grew year by year into a larger school system until they finished their education. Each year the size of the kindergarten class grew. If they started it a decade ago, they could easily reach a base (20-30%) literacy rate.

We would start with 2% for the elite scholars. Then we would probably be importing scribes and scholars from Egypt and Ur 2% and anywhere else there are scholars. Every religion and philosophy would be required to have a holy book, which is written down and should be made available to the population by law. Anyone who is part of a religion would have access to some form of reading and writing. This would grow our literacy considerably by at least another 2%. We have a merchant class which is taught accounting and reading writing 2%. There are incentives to learn to read and write, there is a testing system for entering the bureaucracy. Senior military positions require reading and writing. Also, there is a variety of mediums for reading and writing.

There would be religious schools as well as schools for scholars taught out of large homes. Also, there would be Scholars Associations designed around learning to pass the tests and higher learning.

The different branches of scholarship would have an apprenticeship system -- a bit different than a college system, the Daughters of Penelope, the Sons of Scorylo, the Followers of Etana, the Naturalists.

Paper is readily available as a trade and a popular good, there are popular newspapers, woodcut books, and books purposefully written to teach basic useful skills like carpentry, herbalism, and other things. Popular plays and stories have been turned into books and woodcut books. Reading is a form of entertainment.

One of the scholars classes is devoted to help women, the Daughters of Penelope, they often teach reading and writing in the home as well as practical skills like beekeeping, weaving, herbalism and similar things. Literacy would be an incentive to join them. There are also public reading rooms where people can learn reading and writing. There are real benefits to becoming literate, better jobs, opportunities to join the new classes, better skills, and more entertainment. Reading is a serious advantage to those with ambition or desire. There would probably be a close to 15% or more literacy rate. We are not trying to make everyone literate we are pulling those with ambition and drive towards literacy so we can expand and prosper through trade and knowledge. Make more books, expand, and grow. (15%+)

[Alaroma]

Pretty heavily. I don’t kill dissidents, so I’d have a right to be mad.

>i will brutally execute the dumb stuff
>but i don't kill dissidents
ok

I'd have a right to be mad if christianity starts to mess around with China. Like I said before, a missionary religion like Christianity is inherently destabilizing to a country like China.

I meant that metaphorically dummy, Aksum is overall going to be a tolerant place by middle age standards.

And the Light comes to all friend, just take the pill, and we’ll take the ride together.

[Reatra]

We’re really running up to the limits of our population... I don’t think the Commonwealth can find any use for steam transportation at all, except maybe in mining.

The Imperium doesn't really have a [...] population, sure

accurate

[Endem]

I was supposed to write a postttodaya, but, boy am I not in a mood, will it be forgiven if I don't write a post today?

[UniversalCommons]

I was supposed to write a postttodaya, but, boy am I not in a mood, will it be forgiven if I don't write a post today?

Of course you posted today. You were here.

[Endem]

I was supposed to write a postttodaya, but, boy am I not in a mood, will it be forgiven if I don't write a post today?

Of course you posted today. You were here.

I meant an IC post, but sure

[Bortslovakia]

I would contest that. What G is using is a created language with a completely new structure, loosely based on both a new written and linguistic structure. Imperial Common did not exist before. He also has limited distribution of written paper. There is not as much writing available to the populace. Among the bureaucracy, the fountain pens go to mainly the elite. Also, a lot of the written word is focused on the merchant class and the engineers. There is some prestige in learning to read and write. The main source of popular literacy seems to come from the written Bible with some schools for the young. There is a 10% literacy rate which is being quoted. He has a shortage of literate engineers and merchants.

Access to seasonal workers is one thing. Reason is another. Why would a seasonal worker learn to read and write? Unless there is a clear advantage like becoming a carpenter or engineer or merchant in Gs case, there is not an incentive to learn. The bible is also an incentive for G as well.

There is no indication of advantage in learning to read and write for the Greater Confederacy Commonwealth. Where does it lead for the Commonwealth-- do you became a shipwright, a carpenter, a scholar. What would a person want to read?

The highest literacy rate is probably in Ur. They already have a written language and the first thing remotely like schools, teachers in home who make their living from reading and writing which we came in and copied to create viable teaching. This probably was built on with basic schools. Ur mentions having creches and associations of scholars. I would imagine their literacy rate is at least double that of the Commonwealth or the Imperium. They started kindergartens and massive factories for basic goods. The scribe class which already had prestige was expanded to include everyone. I would imagine also when they created the kindergarten system, it probably grew year by year into a larger school system until they finished their education. Each year the size of the kindergarten class grew. If they started it a decade ago, they could easily reach a base (20-30%) literacy rate.

We would start with 2% for the elite scholars. Then we would probably be importing scribes and scholars from Egypt and Ur 2% and anywhere else there are scholars. Every religion and philosophy would be required to have a holy book, which is written down and should be made available to the population by law. Anyone who is part of a religion would have access to some form of reading and writing. This would grow our literacy considerably by at least another 2%. We have a merchant class which is taught accounting and reading writing 2%. There are incentives to learn to read and write, there is a testing system for entering the bureaucracy. Senior military positions require reading and writing. Also, there is a variety of mediums for reading and writing.

There would be religious schools as well as schools for scholars taught out of large homes. Also, there would be Scholars Associations designed around learning to pass the tests and higher learning.

The different branches of scholarship would have an apprenticeship system -- a bit different than a college system, the Daughters of Penelope, the Sons of Scorylo, the Followers of Etana, the Naturalists.

Paper is readily available as a trade and a popular good, there are popular newspapers, woodcut books, and books purposefully written to teach basic useful skills like carpentry, herbalism, and other things. Popular plays and stories have been turned into books and woodcut books. Reading is a form of entertainment.

One of the scholars classes is devoted to help women, the Daughters of Penelope, they often teach reading and writing in the home as well as practical skills like beekeeping, weaving, herbalism and similar things. Literacy would be an incentive to join them. There are also public reading rooms where people can learn reading and writing. There are real benefits to becoming literate, better jobs, opportunities to join the new classes, better skills, and more entertainment. Reading is a serious advantage to those with ambition or desire. There would probably be a close to 15% or more literacy rate. We are not trying to make everyone literate we are pulling those with ambition and drive towards literacy so we can expand and prosper through trade and knowledge. Make more books, expand, and grow. (15%+)

You can contest it all you like, doesn't mean you're right

Ur is a nonfactor, since I stated that we're only considering people who started with no, or practically no written language whatsoever.

Not sure why you're acting like you need a reason to educate yourself... since you know, we're assuming these are rational actors? Being able to read and write is an absolutely massive advantage that, with the opportunity to learn actually available, you'd have to be a fool to pass up. G's program, if I remember correctly, enrolls the children of millers and farmers first and foremost, since a large chunk of year is left with them doing oddjobs or nothing. Hibernia has open literacy courses in its public library system (which, due to the general lack of books, is more like a rec center), which just so happens to work well with seasonal jobs.

Nestos, by contrast, may have more of a focus on scholarly pursuits, but by your own writing, does one of the worst things possible to promote mass literacy. You charge people to learn. Both the Irish Crown, and the Imperial Purse pay out of pocket to staff their institutions. Funded by Viktor's steelworks, and Pat's merchant ventures. Not by the people enrolling. You may have plenty of wealthy merchants sending their kids off to study, but your average farmer simply can't afford it. Meanwhile not only are the upper class in Hibernia and the Imperium learning how to read and write (by dint of having enough spare time to afford it), but those that might otherwise be left behind are also provided the opportunity to learn.

[Europa Undivided]

Question: Any chance of missionaries from Christian States reaching the Slavic Union?

[Guuj Xaat Kil]

Dude we expected the Mongols to come centuries in advance

ok mongol tributary

ok manchu tributary

[Alaroma]

Question: Any chance of missionaries from Christian States reaching the Slavic Union?

Well, Crimea has Aksumite boys around. Though I’m not sure how soon you are from seeing Christians.

[Europa Undivided]

Question: Any chance of missionaries from Christian States reaching the Slavic Union?

Well, Crimea has Aksumite boys around. Though I’m not sure how soon you are from seeing Christians.

Maybe a year in when the Crimeans hear of a rising power that rules the Volga River.

And then 50 years later the Union will become the Allied States of Rus and is poised to take the Caucasus Region.

[Orostan]

ok mongol tributary

ok manchu tributary

manchus aren't real