The Land Of The Free: An American Political Roleplay (OOC)

[Free Ward Marchers]

so I have to make 3 apps

Democratic Governor of Louisiana (I'm thinking a socially liberal, but fiscally conservative woman)

Republican Michigan Senatorial candidate (Bernie Porter, Justice Cramp hybrid aka Very socially conservative, and economically corporatist)

And a Democratic Governor of Michigan (socially liberal, economically socialist son of the Republican Michigan Senatorial candidate, possibly gay)

Just keep going with Meredith for a bit then take it one character at a time

but there are so many spots that need to be filled in the rp tho

[Sanabel]

Just keep going with Meredith for a bit then take it one character at a time

but there are so many spots that need to be filled in the rp tho

None of those are pressing except Louisiana

[The World Capitalist Confederation]

so I have to make 3 apps

Democratic Governor of Louisiana (I'm thinking a socially liberal, but fiscally conservative woman)

Republican Michigan Senatorial candidate (Bernie Porter, Justice Cramp hybrid aka Very socially conservative, and economically corporatist)

And a Democratic Governor of Michigan (socially liberal, economically socialist son of the Republican Michigan Senatorial candidate, possibly gay)

You could apply for the candidate that will replace Levi in the Minnesota Senate seat in 2020. If he or she is socialist/progressive they would receive the support of Levi.

Might do that to fill out my slate.

Not to you specifically, more to Sanabel, but which highly populated area does Porter have the most supporters in? I was thinking of having a call blitz, one for Texas and then a few for the early states.

[Free Ward Marchers]

but there are so many spots that need to be filled in the rp tho

None of those are pressing except Louisiana

soooo i can make my Louisiana app?

[Sanabel]

You could apply for the candidate that will replace Levi in the Minnesota Senate seat in 2020. If he or she is socialist/progressive they would receive the support of Levi.

Might do that to fill out my slate.

Not to you specifically, more to Sanabel, but which highly populated area does Porter have the most supporters in? I was thinking of having a call blitz, one for Texas and then a few for the early states.

In terms of density of supporters, Porter probably has the highest density of supporters in places like Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, parts of Pennsylvania and Appalachia, maybe some parts of the Pacific Northwest

[Sanabel]

None of those are pressing except Louisiana

soooo i can make my Louisiana app?

Yeah, it’ll still need to be approved though

[Free Ward Marchers]

Might do that to fill out my slate.

Not to you specifically, more to Sanabel, but which highly populated area does Porter have the most supporters in? I was thinking of having a call blitz, one for Texas and then a few for the early states.

In terms of density of supporters, Porter probably has the highest density of supporters in places like Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, parts of Pennsylvania and Appalachia, maybe some parts of the Pacific Northwest

in my experience (as I live there) porter would be doing reasonably well in the eastern part of washington

[Sanabel]

Velahor, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Waco and/or Ruby Ridge

[Velahor]

For now on, I am going to be using the map in this link to better target advertisements. It is the local TV markets for the US. My ads will specifically reference the markets. I can put the link in my sig if it makes it easier for you guys.

https://thevab.com/storage/app/media/Toolkit/DMA_Map_2019.pdf

[Sanabel]

For now on, I am going to be using the map in this link to better target advertisements. It is the local TV markets for the US. My ads will specifically reference the markets. I can put the link in my sig if it makes it easier for you guys.

https://thevab.com/storage/app/media/Toolkit/DMA_Map_2019.pdf

Handy map, thanks!

[Sarenium]

We already have a character from Maine’s second district, and since we are going off of the real life composition of the House, your Representative would have to be a Republican or Democrat

And that candidate would need to win over 50% of the vote else they've breached basic tenants of IRV.

Also my big retail post is postponed until after my wifi gets fixed coz I can't do NS from my phone.

[Federal States of Xathuecia]

If there is any help needed for LA, I've had this app on the back burner for a bit.

---

Character Information Sheet

NS Nation Name: Xath

Character Name: Dorothy Thibodeaux

Character Gender: Female

Character Age: 66

Character Height: 5'6''

Character Weight: 146

Character Position/Role/Job: Governor of Louisiana (2016 - Present), Secretary of State of Louisiana (2012 - 2016), Commissioner of Louisiana Department of Agriculture and Forestry (2004 - 2012),

Appearance:

Character State of Origin: Louisiana

Character State of Residence: Louisiana

Character Party Affiliation: Democrat

Main Strengths: Well respected in Louisiana and enjoys strong approval ratings, Seen as authentic and caring, Has accomplished a number of her campaign promises to an extent, Favorite to win reelection

Main Weaknesses: Historically weaker support among African-Americans than other Democrats, Harsh critic of President Wolf, Exhausted her campaign funds and enters the campaign with a smaller war chest than ideal, Media has low expectations for her poor debating skills

Biography: WIP

Other Info: Conservative Democrat with a record of pro-gun and pro-life views, Has buoyed a greater share of moderate white voters than liberal black voters

I have read and accept the rules of the roleplay: Xathuecia

Do Not Remove: 84721

[Sanabel]

If there is any help needed for LA, I've had this app on the back burner for a bit.

(Image)

---

Character Information Sheet

NS Nation Name: Xath

Character Name: Dorothy Thibodeaux

Character Gender: Female

Character Age: 66

Character Height: 5'6''

Character Weight: 146

Character Position/Role/Job: Governor of Louisiana (2016 - Present), Secretary of State of Louisiana (2012 - 2016), Commissioner of Louisiana Department of Agriculture and Forestry (2004 - 2012),

Appearance: (Image)

Character State of Origin: Louisiana

Character State of Residence: Louisiana

Character Party Affiliation: Democrat

Main Strengths: Well respected in Louisiana and enjoys strong approval ratings, Seen as authentic and caring, Has accomplished a number of her campaign promises to an extent, Favorite to win reelection

Main Weaknesses: Historically weaker support among African-Americans than other Democrats, Harsh critic of President Wolf, Exhausted her campaign funds and enters the campaign with a smaller war chest than ideal, Media has low expectations for her poor debating skills

Biography: WIP

Other Info: Conservative Democrat with a record of pro-gun and pro-life views, Has buoyed a greater share of moderate white voters than liberal black voters

I have read and accept the rules of the roleplay: Xathuecia

Do Not Remove: 84721

I like

[Gordano and Lysandus]

If there is any help needed for LA, I've had this app on the back burner for a bit.

(Image)

---

Character Information Sheet

NS Nation Name: Xath

Character Name: Dorothy Thibodeaux

Character Gender: Female

Character Age: 66

Character Height: 5'6''

Character Weight: 146

Character Position/Role/Job: Governor of Louisiana (2016 - Present), Secretary of State of Louisiana (2012 - 2016), Commissioner of Louisiana Department of Agriculture and Forestry (2004 - 2012),

Appearance: (Image)

Character State of Origin: Louisiana

Character State of Residence: Louisiana

Character Party Affiliation: Democrat

Main Strengths: Well respected in Louisiana and enjoys strong approval ratings, Seen as authentic and caring, Has accomplished a number of her campaign promises to an extent, Favorite to win reelection

Main Weaknesses: Historically weaker support among African-Americans than other Democrats, Harsh critic of President Wolf, Exhausted her campaign funds and enters the campaign with a smaller war chest than ideal, Media has low expectations for her poor debating skills

Biography: WIP

Other Info: Conservative Democrat with a record of pro-gun and pro-life views, Has buoyed a greater share of moderate white voters than liberal black voters

I have read and accept the rules of the roleplay: Xathuecia

Do Not Remove: 84721

I refuse to believe this is not Mom from Futurama.

[Main Nation Ministry]

If there is any help needed for LA, I've had this app on the back burner for a bit.

(Image)

---

Character Information Sheet

NS Nation Name: Xath

Character Name: Dorothy Thibodeaux

Character Gender: Female

Character Age: 66

Character Height: 5'6''

Character Weight: 146

Character Position/Role/Job: Governor of Louisiana (2016 - Present), Secretary of State of Louisiana (2012 - 2016), Commissioner of Louisiana Department of Agriculture and Forestry (2004 - 2012),

Appearance: (Image)

Character State of Origin: Louisiana

Character State of Residence: Louisiana

Character Party Affiliation: Democrat

Main Strengths: Well respected in Louisiana and enjoys strong approval ratings, Seen as authentic and caring, Has accomplished a number of her campaign promises to an extent, Favorite to win reelection

Main Weaknesses: Historically weaker support among African-Americans than other Democrats, Harsh critic of President Wolf, Exhausted her campaign funds and enters the campaign with a smaller war chest than ideal, Media has low expectations for her poor debating skills

Biography: WIP

Other Info: Conservative Democrat with a record of pro-gun and pro-life views, Has buoyed a greater share of moderate white voters than liberal black voters

I have read and accept the rules of the roleplay: Xathuecia

Do Not Remove: 84721

The hair is giving me all sorts of things in my mind that I can't process.

[Velahor]

Velahor, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Waco and/or Ruby Ridge

I thoroughly believe that people should be allowed to form isolated communities, believe in backwards religions, and hold hateful beliefs as long as they do it peacefully. These two instances are tricky, because they were participating in illegal activities but met with excessive force.

Waco was a mass slaughter of innocent civilians under the guise of saving them from a few legitimate criminals in the Branch Davidian compound. Excessive force, plain and simple. There was physical and sexual abuse of children going on, so obviously action did needed to be taken against the individuals committing those crimes, but it was so poorly executed, because the approach taken was not to preserve the lives of those in the compound, but to treat them as enemy combatants. It's a more muddy one than Ruby Ridge though, because of the crimes involved.

As far as Ruby Ridge goes, the Feds messed up again, but also, Weaver didn't do anything that should be illegal, as his weapons charge is in violation of natural human rights in my opinion. Randy Weaver wasn't a dangerous white supremacist, just poor delusional fool who thought the world was ending when he left Iowa for Idaho. He took his family out to the same place that everyone who thinks the world is ending goes, and that is a place that includes a lot of white supremacists. He became somewhat radicalized by nature of associating with these people, but wasn't any more of a threat than the rest of the guys who live out there in the northern Rockies doing the same thing. The charge he was to be arrested on was selling a sawed off shotgun without a license, the state met him with a small army. The FBI, Marshals, and ATF acted on misinformation with an unreasonable amount of force and proved him right that the world was ending, at least in his mind. Obviously, if the feds are shooting at a building with children in it, they didn't thoroughly investigate the situation. In the end, the feds killed an innocent civilian who wasn't actively posing a threat to anyone, trying to pick up a guy on a minor gun violation.

In both situations, I think the federal criminal bureaus were trying to make a statement to far-righters that they wouldn't be tolerated, and used real criminal accusations to show brutal military force. They wanted to intimidate what they mistakenly saw as a rise in far-right terrorist organizations, and ended up instead slaughtering American citizens, mostly children and mothers.

To use an analogy, Waco is the equivalent someone hitting a pedestrian with a car, but instead of towing the car and arresting the driver, the police run it over with a bulldozer, with the driver and their whole family in it. Ruby Ridge was like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket, and then the cop reaches in the car and shoots your dog because it growled. Both are obvious instances of excessive force even though the accused that were to be arrested were likely guilty of their crimes.

From a legal standpoint, it was excessive force, and those killed without trials, including mothers and children, were punished as criminals by the federal government without due process. These people were acting within their 2A rights possessing the weapons that they had, but they forfeited those rights by committing crimes unrelated to their dissent against the government.

I'm glad the Feds changed their tactics with these groups, to kill less innocent people trying to get to these small-time cult leaders and white supremacists.

To sum it up:

Waco required government action, but they acted improperly and killed the people they were supposed to be saving.

Ruby Ridge did not require government action, and would have been avoided if not for an unjust and unnecessary gun law that the Feds decided to enforce with a small army.

[Main Nation Ministry]

Velahor, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Waco and/or Ruby Ridge

I thoroughly believe that people should be allowed to form isolated communities, believe in backwards religions, and hold hateful beliefs as long as they do it peacefully. These two instances are tricky, because they were participating in illegal activities but met with excessive force.

Waco was a mass slaughter of innocent civilians under the guise of saving them from a few legitimate criminals in the Branch Davidian compound. Excessive force, plain and simple. There was physical and sexual abuse of children going on, so obviously action did needed to be taken against the individuals committing those crimes, but it was so poorly executed, because the approach taken was not to preserve the lives of those in the compound, but to treat them as enemy combatants. It's a more muddy one than Ruby Ridge though, because of the crimes involved.

As far as Ruby Ridge goes, the Feds messed up again, but also, Weaver didn't do anything that should be illegal, as his weapons charge is in violation of natural human rights in my opinion. Randy Weaver wasn't a dangerous white supremacist, just poor delusional fool who thought the world was ending when he left Iowa for Idaho. He took his family out to the same place that everyone who thinks the world is ending goes, and that is a place that includes a lot of white supremacists. He became somewhat radicalized by nature of associating with these people, but wasn't any more of a threat than the rest of the guys who live out there in the northern Rockies doing the same thing. The charge he was to be arrested on was selling a sawed off shotgun without a license, the state met him with a small army. The FBI, Marshals, and ATF acted on misinformation with an unreasonable amount of force and proved him right that the world was ending, at least in his mind. Obviously, if the feds are shooting at a building with children in it, they didn't thoroughly investigate the situation. In the end, the feds killed an innocent civilian who wasn't actively posing a threat to anyone, trying to pick up a guy on a minor gun violation.

In both situations, I think the federal criminal bureaus were trying to make a statement to far-righters that they wouldn't be tolerated, and used real criminal accusations to show brutal military force. They wanted to intimidate what they mistakenly saw as a rise in far-right terrorist organizations, and ended up instead slaughtering American citizens, mostly children and mothers.

To use an analogy, Waco is the equivalent someone hitting a pedestrian with a car, but instead of towing the car and arresting the driver, the police run it over with a bulldozer, with the driver and their whole family in it. Ruby Ridge was like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket, and then the cop reaches in the car and shoots your dog because it growled. Both are obvious instances of excessive force even though the accused that were to be arrested were likely guilty of their crimes.

From a legal standpoint, it was excessive force, and those killed without trials, including mothers and children, were punished as criminals by the federal government without due process. These people were acting within their 2A rights possessing the weapons that they had, but they forfeited those rights by committing crimes unrelated to their dissent against the government.

I'm glad the Feds changed their tactics with these groups, to kill less innocent people trying to get to these small-time cult leaders and white supremacists.

To sum it up:

Waco required government action, but they acted improperly and killed the people they were supposed to be saving.

Ruby Ridge did not require government action, and would have been avoided if not for an unjust and unnecessary gun law that the Feds decided to enforce with a small army.

Is this about the actual Waco Siege?

[Velahor]

I thoroughly believe that people should be allowed to form isolated communities, believe in backwards religions, and hold hateful beliefs as long as they do it peacefully. These two instances are tricky, because they were participating in illegal activities but met with excessive force.

Waco was a mass slaughter of innocent civilians under the guise of saving them from a few legitimate criminals in the Branch Davidian compound. Excessive force, plain and simple. There was physical and sexual abuse of children going on, so obviously action did needed to be taken against the individuals committing those crimes, but it was so poorly executed, because the approach taken was not to preserve the lives of those in the compound, but to treat them as enemy combatants. It's a more muddy one than Ruby Ridge though, because of the crimes involved.

As far as Ruby Ridge goes, the Feds messed up again, but also, Weaver didn't do anything that should be illegal, as his weapons charge is in violation of natural human rights in my opinion. Randy Weaver wasn't a dangerous white supremacist, just poor delusional fool who thought the world was ending when he left Iowa for Idaho. He took his family out to the same place that everyone who thinks the world is ending goes, and that is a place that includes a lot of white supremacists. He became somewhat radicalized by nature of associating with these people, but wasn't any more of a threat than the rest of the guys who live out there in the northern Rockies doing the same thing. The charge he was to be arrested on was selling a sawed off shotgun without a license, the state met him with a small army. The FBI, Marshals, and ATF acted on misinformation with an unreasonable amount of force and proved him right that the world was ending, at least in his mind. Obviously, if the feds are shooting at a building with children in it, they didn't thoroughly investigate the situation. In the end, the feds killed an innocent civilian who wasn't actively posing a threat to anyone, trying to pick up a guy on a minor gun violation.

In both situations, I think the federal criminal bureaus were trying to make a statement to far-righters that they wouldn't be tolerated, and used real criminal accusations to show brutal military force. They wanted to intimidate what they mistakenly saw as a rise in far-right terrorist organizations, and ended up instead slaughtering American citizens, mostly children and mothers.

To use an analogy, Waco is the equivalent someone hitting a pedestrian with a car, but instead of towing the car and arresting the driver, the police run it over with a bulldozer, with the driver and their whole family in it. Ruby Ridge was like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket, and then the cop reaches in the car and shoots your dog because it growled. Both are obvious instances of excessive force even though the accused that were to be arrested were likely guilty of their crimes.

From a legal standpoint, it was excessive force, and those killed without trials, including mothers and children, were punished as criminals by the federal government without due process. These people were acting within their 2A rights possessing the weapons that they had, but they forfeited those rights by committing crimes unrelated to their dissent against the government.

I'm glad the Feds changed their tactics with these groups, to kill less innocent people trying to get to these small-time cult leaders and white supremacists.

To sum it up:

Waco required government action, but they acted improperly and killed the people they were supposed to be saving.

Ruby Ridge did not require government action, and would have been avoided if not for an unjust and unnecessary gun law that the Feds decided to enforce with a small army.

Is this about the actual Waco Siege?

Yep, lol I was bored so I figured I would give a thorough answer

[Main Nation Ministry]

Yep, lol I was bored so I figured I would give a thorough answer

Waco Siege is pretty much one of those crazy cult stories similar to Jonestown and Heaven's Gate. I'm not counting the Rajneeshpuram in this, since the events that happened with that ended up in a much non-violent note. What I find ironic is that Caryton is trying to have a cult leader applied, though I do admit about Bates, is that things may or may not go wrong.

Waco Siege is still a bit of a cautionary warning on how a simple cult can go violently extreme. For the case of Waco, there is evidence that the FBI and ATF had did unnecessary lethal force, but the death toll is something to be taken seriously. Waco is a bit lessly known than the other cult stories, though Postal 2 referenced them in-game. While I don't question some new religion movements, there are times where one needs to be aware of the overall insanity on how disturbingly influential their are. *cough* Scientology *cough*. But the government still needs to know how to properly handle such situations in terms of a raid.

[Velahor]

Yep, lol I was bored so I figured I would give a thorough answer

Waco Siege is pretty much one of those crazy cult stories similar to Jonestown and Heaven's Gate. I'm not counting the Rajneeshpuram in this, since the events that happened with that ended up in a much non-violent note. What I find ironic is that Caryton is trying to have a cult leader applied, though I do admit about Bates, is that things may or may not go wrong.

Waco Siege is still a bit of a cautionary warning on how a simple cult can go violently extreme. For the case of Waco, there is evidence that the FBI and ATF had did unnecessary lethal force, but the death toll is something to be taken seriously. Waco is a bit lessly known than the other cult stories, though Postal 2 referenced them in-game. While I don't question some new religion movements, there are times where one needs to be aware of the overall insanity on how disturbingly influential their are. *cough* Scientology *cough*. But the government still needs to know how to properly handle such situations in terms of a raid.

I think there’s a place for new religious movements in society, all religious beliefs start that way and I am of the opinion that religions have brought general benefit to the world despite their obvious negative effects. Scientology, on the other hand, is like a blend of a pyramid scheme, a tax shelter for numerous businesses, and a cult based in pseudoscientific mental therapy practices. It’s a whole other animal, and should be investigated for tax fraud, and fraud against its members for selling them “processing” sessions for thousands of dollars.

They should have their tax-exempt status revoked in the US. Many other countries do not recognize them as a religion but instead as a business.

[Main Nation Ministry]

I think there’s a place for new religious movements in society, all religious beliefs start that way and I am of the opinion that religions have brought general benefit to the world despite their obvious negative effects. Scientology, on the other hand, is like a blend of a pyramid scheme, a tax shelter for numerous businesses, and a cult based in pseudoscientific mental therapy practices. It’s a whole other animal, and should be investigated for tax fraud, and fraud against its members for selling them “processing” sessions for thousands of dollars.

Scientology is pretty much a predatory cult scam that almost dehumanizes those who follow it. Religous cons can end up in the form of cults also. Jim Jones was profiled as a con artist, also.

[Velahor]

For now on, I am going to be using the map in this link to better target advertisements. It is the local TV markets for the US. My ads will specifically reference the markets. I can put the link in my sig if it makes it easier for you guys.

https://thevab.com/storage/app/media/Toolkit/DMA_Map_2019.pdf

Handy map, thanks!

I like using it for realism. It is extremely important in New Hampshire, because NH has no native TV markets. It’s all either in the range of Boston, Vermont, or Portland, ME. So if you buy an ad for Manchester TV, it also is playing in Boston.

Also, with local TV, you can’t pick and choose within a market, so say you buy an ad for TV in Market 2 (Los Angeles area) that talks up your candidate’s progressive credentials. It might seem good, because you’re buying the ad for Los Angeles, but that ad might also hurt you with another demographic in Market 2, say suburban whites in Orange County.

I don’t think we should require people to use it, but if we did, it would put a realistic limit on the way TV ads work, and then how much an ad costs a campaign could be figured by the market size. So that way a candidate buying an ad in New York City (Market 1) has a bigger hit to their assumed pool of cash on hand than someone buying one in Glendive, MT (Market 210). Internet ads have an advantage in this way, you can narrow targeting down to smaller locations and individual demographics.

[Agarntrop]

i feel like my relationship with dent is getting evermore passive aggressive lol

[Dentali]

i feel like my relationship with dent is getting evermore passive aggressive lol

i feel its a totally accurate description of Smith

[Sanabel]

Velahor, I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Waco and/or Ruby Ridge

I thoroughly believe that people should be allowed to form isolated communities, believe in backwards religions, and hold hateful beliefs as long as they do it peacefully. These two instances are tricky, because they were participating in illegal activities but met with excessive force.

Waco was a mass slaughter of innocent civilians under the guise of saving them from a few legitimate criminals in the Branch Davidian compound. Excessive force, plain and simple. There was physical and sexual abuse of children going on, so obviously action did needed to be taken against the individuals committing those crimes, but it was so poorly executed, because the approach taken was not to preserve the lives of those in the compound, but to treat them as enemy combatants. It's a more muddy one than Ruby Ridge though, because of the crimes involved.

As far as Ruby Ridge goes, the Feds messed up again, but also, Weaver didn't do anything that should be illegal, as his weapons charge is in violation of natural human rights in my opinion. Randy Weaver wasn't a dangerous white supremacist, just poor delusional fool who thought the world was ending when he left Iowa for Idaho. He took his family out to the same place that everyone who thinks the world is ending goes, and that is a place that includes a lot of white supremacists. He became somewhat radicalized by nature of associating with these people, but wasn't any more of a threat than the rest of the guys who live out there in the northern Rockies doing the same thing. The charge he was to be arrested on was selling a sawed off shotgun without a license, the state met him with a small army. The FBI, Marshals, and ATF acted on misinformation with an unreasonable amount of force and proved him right that the world was ending, at least in his mind. Obviously, if the feds are shooting at a building with children in it, they didn't thoroughly investigate the situation. In the end, the feds killed an innocent civilian who wasn't actively posing a threat to anyone, trying to pick up a guy on a minor gun violation.

In both situations, I think the federal criminal bureaus were trying to make a statement to far-righters that they wouldn't be tolerated, and used real criminal accusations to show brutal military force. They wanted to intimidate what they mistakenly saw as a rise in far-right terrorist organizations, and ended up instead slaughtering American citizens, mostly children and mothers.

To use an analogy, Waco is the equivalent someone hitting a pedestrian with a car, but instead of towing the car and arresting the driver, the police run it over with a bulldozer, with the driver and their whole family in it. Ruby Ridge was like getting pulled over for a speeding ticket, and then the cop reaches in the car and shoots your dog because it growled. Both are obvious instances of excessive force even though the accused that were to be arrested were likely guilty of their crimes.

From a legal standpoint, it was excessive force, and those killed without trials, including mothers and children, were punished as criminals by the federal government without due process. These people were acting within their 2A rights possessing the weapons that they had, but they forfeited those rights by committing crimes unrelated to their dissent against the government.

I'm glad the Feds changed their tactics with these groups, to kill less innocent people trying to get to these small-time cult leaders and white supremacists.

To sum it up:

Waco required government action, but they acted improperly and killed the people they were supposed to be saving.

Ruby Ridge did not require government action, and would have been avoided if not for an unjust and unnecessary gun law that the Feds decided to enforce with a small army.

Yeah, I hold similar views. I think the issue was with execution more than anything.

With regards to Waco, I tend to take an even more negative view toward the actions of the ATF, given that they had the chance to arrest Koresh outside of the compound but opted not to, and given that the FBI pretty much just continuously escalated the situation.

Also, you hit the nail on the head with Ruby Ridge. There was no reason to send a team of US Marshalls armed with automatic weapons to arrest someone for failing to show up to court. There’s a reason why Weaver ended up acquitted of most charges and his family won a large settlement.