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Merni
Diplomat
 
Posts: 821
Founded: May 03, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Merni » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:25 am

Vedastia wrote:
Establishment Act
Author: Carl von Leslie


A bill establishing the Church of Saint Hilda as the state religion of Saint Hilda

BE IT THEREFORE ENACTED, as follows:



§1 - Establishment
  1. The legal personage of the Church of Sweden in Saint Hilda shall be superseded by the Church of Saint Hilda.
  2. All operations and property entailed to the Church of Sweden in Saint Hilda shall be incorporated into the Church of Saint Hilda.
  3. The Church of Saint Hilda shall be established as the state religion of the State of Saint Hilda.

§2 - Parishes and Parish Councils
  1. A parish council shall govern each congregation within the Church of Saint Hilda.
  2. Each parish council shall consist of the parish priest as its leader, other clergy attached to the parish, and several communicant lay members of the congregation equal to the number of attached clergy excluding the parish priest, selected from among and by communicant lay members of the congregation annually, with the parish council otherwise selecting their own officers from among themselves.

§2 - Deaneries and Deanery Councils
  1. A deanery shall consist of at most ten parishes.
  2. A deanery council shall govern each deanery.
  3. Each deanery council shall consist of two clergy and two communicant laypersons selected from within each parish by their respective parish councils every four years.
  4. Each deanery council shall select a dean to lead it from among the clergy attached to parishes within the deanery, otherwise selecting their own officers from among themselves.

§3 - General Synod
  1. The General Synod of the Church of Saint Hilda shall be the highest legislative body of the Church of Saint Hilda.
  2. The General Synod shall consist of two clergy and one communicant layperson selected from within each deanery by their respective deanery councils every four years, as well a number of clergy selected by Parliament equal to one-sixth of the total membership of the General Synod, and a number of communicant laypeople selected by Parliament equal to one-twelfth of the total membership of the General Synod.
  3. Members of the General Synod shall select officers from among themselves.
  4. Decisions made by the General Synod shall be subject to review by the Parliament of Saint Hilda, which shall have the power to approve or reject decisions made by the General Synod.

§4 - Diocese of Fort Ulrika
  1. The Church of Saint Hilda shall consist of one diocese, the Diocese of Fort Ulrika, comprising the whole of the State of Saint Hilda.
  2. The Bishop of Fort Ulrika shall be the Primate of Saint Hilda within the Church of Saint Hilda.
  3. The Bishop shall be selected from among the priests of the Church of Saint Hilda by the General Synod .


Two questions:
1. Why is the government deciding the internal structure of the Church? This should be entirely a matter for the Church itself.
2. Further to that, clause 3c seems draconian and unnecessary. Why should Parliament have a veto power over the Church's decision? Moreover, the wording of the clause seems to grant Parliament more than the usual veto (a so-called pocket veto), allowing them to effectively block a decision by simply not deciding on it. This feels like a violation of religious freedom.

Also, maybe clause 1c should say "state church" instead of "state religion". (I won't comment on the intent behind that clause right now, I'm sure there will be enough comments on it in IC.)
Last edited by Merni on Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
NS Parliament: Anna Nilsson, Deputy Speaker (Koternholm, PLP) (Standing Orders)
Join The Labyrinth | GA Committee List | Qersi Int'l Airport
Fmr. WAD, etc.

I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. — Ronald Reagan

When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People’s Stick.' — Mikhail Bakunin (to Karl Marx)

You're supposed to be employing the arts of diplomacy, not the ruddy great thumping sledgehammers of diplomacy. — Ardchoille

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion [...] but rather by its superiority in applying organised violence. — Samuel P. Huntington

Sig char lim is my nemesis.

16

Eco L/R : -6.75
Soc Lib/Auth: -1.95

User avatar
Vedastia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 857
Founded: Jan 19, 2012
Capitalizt

Postby Vedastia » Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:39 pm

Merni wrote:
Vedastia wrote:
Establishment Act
Author: Carl von Leslie


A bill establishing the Church of Saint Hilda as the state religion of Saint Hilda

BE IT THEREFORE ENACTED, as follows:



§1 - Establishment
  1. The legal personage of the Church of Sweden in Saint Hilda shall be superseded by the Church of Saint Hilda.
  2. All operations and property entailed to the Church of Sweden in Saint Hilda shall be incorporated into the Church of Saint Hilda.
  3. The Church of Saint Hilda shall be established as the state religion of the State of Saint Hilda.

§2 - Parishes and Parish Councils
  1. A parish council shall govern each congregation within the Church of Saint Hilda.
  2. Each parish council shall consist of the parish priest as its leader, other clergy attached to the parish, and several communicant lay members of the congregation equal to the number of attached clergy excluding the parish priest, selected from among and by communicant lay members of the congregation annually, with the parish council otherwise selecting their own officers from among themselves.

§2 - Deaneries and Deanery Councils
  1. A deanery shall consist of at most ten parishes.
  2. A deanery council shall govern each deanery.
  3. Each deanery council shall consist of two clergy and two communicant laypersons selected from within each parish by their respective parish councils every four years.
  4. Each deanery council shall select a dean to lead it from among the clergy attached to parishes within the deanery, otherwise selecting their own officers from among themselves.

§3 - General Synod
  1. The General Synod of the Church of Saint Hilda shall be the highest legislative body of the Church of Saint Hilda.
  2. The General Synod shall consist of two clergy and one communicant layperson selected from within each deanery by their respective deanery councils every four years, as well a number of clergy selected by Parliament equal to one-sixth of the total membership of the General Synod, and a number of communicant laypeople selected by Parliament equal to one-twelfth of the total membership of the General Synod.
  3. Members of the General Synod shall select officers from among themselves.
  4. Decisions made by the General Synod shall be subject to review by the Parliament of Saint Hilda, which shall have the power to approve or reject decisions made by the General Synod.

§4 - Diocese of Fort Ulrika
  1. The Church of Saint Hilda shall consist of one diocese, the Diocese of Fort Ulrika, comprising the whole of the State of Saint Hilda.
  2. The Bishop of Fort Ulrika shall be the Primate of Saint Hilda within the Church of Saint Hilda.
  3. The Bishop shall be selected from among the priests of the Church of Saint Hilda by the General Synod .


Two questions:
1. Why is the government deciding the internal structure of the Church? This should be entirely a matter for the Church itself.
2. Further to that, clause 3c seems draconian and unnecessary. Why should Parliament have a veto power over the Church's decision? Moreover, the wording of the clause seems to grant Parliament more than the usual veto (a so-called pocket veto), allowing them to effectively block a decision by simply not deciding on it. This feels like a violation of religious freedom.

Also, maybe clause 1c should say "state church" instead of "state religion". (I won't comment on the intent behind that clause right now, I'm sure there will be enough comments on it in IC.)

1. The Church of Sweden was notorious for state influence in its internal affairs when it was an established church. In fact, the Church decided to elect members of its deliberative bodies selected on partisan lists corresponding to Swedish political parties.
2. Again, the Church of Sweden was under heavy state influence before it was disestablished. Parliament should have at least some influence over its state church. As for your process suggestions, I will take them into account and amend the bill accordingly to remove any ambiguity about vetoes.

Also, this bill is not intended to violate religious freedom. This is merely either maintaining the status quo if the Church of Sweden was established in Saint Hilda upon independence or restoring the status quo ante if the Church of Sweden was disestablished in Saint Hilda beforehand, both with some modifications to the structure of the church. I say either of those options because I still do not know the specifics of church establishment in Saint Hilda, as none of the admins answered that question when I asked them. As you are well aware, Saint Hilda is a pluralistic society when it comes to religion. There are many Catholics and dissenting protestants who reside within Saint Hilda who don't face government persecution due to their religious beliefs.

If this bill is passed, I intend to write up a follow-up bill regarding mandatory tithing similar to the current German system of church establishment, with registered religious organizations tithing their members a mandatory percentage of their income. Any registered religious organization can opt out of the tithing system if they so choose, and people who are not members of any registered religious organization or are members of registered nonparticipating churches will be compelled to donate the money that they would otherwise tithe to a registered charity created specifically for that purpose.
Carl von Leslie, Prime Minister of Saint Hilda in the NS Parliament
Leader of the National People's Party - For Family and Freedom
Dinake wrote:
Zoice wrote:The far right is truly to blame. The left may lose ground to them, but they wouldn't be losing ground if there wasn't the far right in the first place calling for batshit insanity.
That's like saying "blockbuster wouldn't be losing ground to netflix if there wasn't any netflix".
Major-Tom wrote:
Risottia wrote:Reality has a left-wing bias.
God, if I had a nickel for every time I heard some smug internet warrior say this...

User avatar
Merni
Diplomat
 
Posts: 821
Founded: May 03, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Merni » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:17 am

Vedastia wrote:
Merni wrote:
Two questions:
1. Why is the government deciding the internal structure of the Church? This should be entirely a matter for the Church itself.
2. Further to that, clause 3c seems draconian and unnecessary. Why should Parliament have a veto power over the Church's decision? Moreover, the wording of the clause seems to grant Parliament more than the usual veto (a so-called pocket veto), allowing them to effectively block a decision by simply not deciding on it. This feels like a violation of religious freedom.

Also, maybe clause 1c should say "state church" instead of "state religion". (I won't comment on the intent behind that clause right now, I'm sure there will be enough comments on it in IC.)

1. The Church of Sweden was notorious for state influence in its internal affairs when it was an established church. In fact, the Church decided to elect members of its deliberative bodies selected on partisan lists corresponding to Swedish political parties.

Surely being "notorious" for something is not good? And, besides, the Church of Sweden hasn't been the state church for 19 years; why should the Church of Saint Hilda reintroduce the concept of a state church, and the other historic problems of the Church of Sweden here? When inheriting even the current problems of the Church of Sweden is not desirable (which to me it isn't), why inherit its past problems?

Parliament should have at least some influence over its state church.

But not full, absolute control.

If this bill is passed, I intend to write up a follow-up bill regarding mandatory tithing similar to the current German system of church establishment, with registered religious organizations tithing their members a mandatory percentage of their income. Any registered religious organization can opt out of the tithing system if they so choose, and people who are not members of any registered religious organization or are members of registered nonparticipating churches will be compelled to donate the money that they would otherwise tithe to a registered charity created specifically for that purpose.

That isn't similar to the current German system at all — the German system of church tax (Kirchensteuer or Kultussteuer) does not compel those who are not members of a sect which collects the tax to pay it at all. In that regard, it is more similar to the Italian system of otto per mille ("eight per thousand") whereby taxpayers must send 0.8% of the amount of their income tax return to a religious institution of their choice, or to the state.
But whatever it's similar to, good luck getting it passed :p
NS Parliament: Anna Nilsson, Deputy Speaker (Koternholm, PLP) (Standing Orders)
Join The Labyrinth | GA Committee List | Qersi Int'l Airport
Fmr. WAD, etc.

I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. — Ronald Reagan

When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People’s Stick.' — Mikhail Bakunin (to Karl Marx)

You're supposed to be employing the arts of diplomacy, not the ruddy great thumping sledgehammers of diplomacy. — Ardchoille

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion [...] but rather by its superiority in applying organised violence. — Samuel P. Huntington

Sig char lim is my nemesis.

16

Eco L/R : -6.75
Soc Lib/Auth: -1.95

User avatar
Vedastia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 857
Founded: Jan 19, 2012
Capitalizt

Postby Vedastia » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:43 pm

Merni wrote:
Vedastia wrote:

1. The Church of Sweden was notorious for state influence in its internal affairs when it was an established church. In fact, the Church decided to elect members of its deliberative bodies selected on partisan lists corresponding to Swedish political parties.

Surely being "notorious" for something is not good? And, besides, the Church of Sweden hasn't been the state church for 19 years; why should the Church of Saint Hilda reintroduce the concept of a state church, and the other historic problems of the Church of Sweden here? When inheriting even the current problems of the Church of Sweden is not desirable (which to me it isn't), why inherit its past problems?

Parliament should have at least some influence over its state church.

But not full, absolute control.

If this bill is passed, I intend to write up a follow-up bill regarding mandatory tithing similar to the current German system of church establishment, with registered religious organizations tithing their members a mandatory percentage of their income. Any registered religious organization can opt out of the tithing system if they so choose, and people who are not members of any registered religious organization or are members of registered nonparticipating churches will be compelled to donate the money that they would otherwise tithe to a registered charity created specifically for that purpose.

That isn't similar to the current German system at all — the German system of church tax (Kirchensteuer or Kultussteuer) does not compel those who are not members of a sect which collects the tax to pay it at all. In that regard, it is more similar to the Italian system of otto per mille ("eight per thousand") whereby taxpayers must send 0.8% of the amount of their income tax return to a religious institution of their choice, or to the state.
But whatever it's similar to, good luck getting it passed :p

I could do a complete overhaul of the act, allowing the Church to determine its own structure, but for decisions to be subject to veto by Parliament, which, quite frankly, sounds like a better idea.
Carl von Leslie, Prime Minister of Saint Hilda in the NS Parliament
Leader of the National People's Party - For Family and Freedom
Dinake wrote:
Zoice wrote:The far right is truly to blame. The left may lose ground to them, but they wouldn't be losing ground if there wasn't the far right in the first place calling for batshit insanity.
That's like saying "blockbuster wouldn't be losing ground to netflix if there wasn't any netflix".
Major-Tom wrote:
Risottia wrote:Reality has a left-wing bias.
God, if I had a nickel for every time I heard some smug internet warrior say this...

User avatar
Merni
Diplomat
 
Posts: 821
Founded: May 03, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Merni » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:44 am

Vedastia wrote:
Merni wrote:
Surely being "notorious" for something is not good? And, besides, the Church of Sweden hasn't been the state church for 19 years; why should the Church of Saint Hilda reintroduce the concept of a state church, and the other historic problems of the Church of Sweden here? When inheriting even the current problems of the Church of Sweden is not desirable (which to me it isn't), why inherit its past problems?


But not full, absolute control.


That isn't similar to the current German system at all — the German system of church tax (Kirchensteuer or Kultussteuer) does not compel those who are not members of a sect which collects the tax to pay it at all. In that regard, it is more similar to the Italian system of otto per mille ("eight per thousand") whereby taxpayers must send 0.8% of the amount of their income tax return to a religious institution of their choice, or to the state.
But whatever it's similar to, good luck getting it passed :p

I could do a complete overhaul of the act, allowing the Church to determine its own structure, but for decisions to be subject to veto by Parliament, which, quite frankly, sounds like a better idea.

It does. Still not a good idea, but better. (make that veto a 2/3 majority and it will be even better)
NS Parliament: Anna Nilsson, Deputy Speaker (Koternholm, PLP) (Standing Orders)
Join The Labyrinth | GA Committee List | Qersi Int'l Airport
Fmr. WAD, etc.

I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. — Ronald Reagan

When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People’s Stick.' — Mikhail Bakunin (to Karl Marx)

You're supposed to be employing the arts of diplomacy, not the ruddy great thumping sledgehammers of diplomacy. — Ardchoille

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion [...] but rather by its superiority in applying organised violence. — Samuel P. Huntington

Sig char lim is my nemesis.

16

Eco L/R : -6.75
Soc Lib/Auth: -1.95

User avatar
Merni
Diplomat
 
Posts: 821
Founded: May 03, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Merni » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:02 am

@Zurkerx: any update on a budget?
NS Parliament: Anna Nilsson, Deputy Speaker (Koternholm, PLP) (Standing Orders)
Join The Labyrinth | GA Committee List | Qersi Int'l Airport
Fmr. WAD, etc.

I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born. — Ronald Reagan

When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called 'the People’s Stick.' — Mikhail Bakunin (to Karl Marx)

You're supposed to be employing the arts of diplomacy, not the ruddy great thumping sledgehammers of diplomacy. — Ardchoille

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion [...] but rather by its superiority in applying organised violence. — Samuel P. Huntington

Sig char lim is my nemesis.

16

Eco L/R : -6.75
Soc Lib/Auth: -1.95

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