New Civilizations ( OOC, Always Open, Reboot )

[G-Tech Corporation]

Who produces steel in Hibernia? Who is it distributed to? Could it be sold to Icedonian merchants in exchange for tamed horses?

The Commonwealth would by this point have fairly sophisticated iron- and steelworking techniques, courtesy of technology exchange with the Imperium.

The Bessemer process can be summarised in one sentence if you know high school chemistry. Blast furnaces are more complex, but still one-paragraph material. They’re difficult technologies, but they’re not particularly complex in principle.

Not very widespread yet, but there’ll be enough to sell over the North Sea market.

I'm going to have to run some skepticism on this. High carbon iron isn't the same thing as steel, and Imperial steel is made via a rather complicated series of reduction, oxidation, and alloying processes. Without, at a minimum, knowledge of the composition of the refractory lining of a converter, you'll only put out diffidently dosed iron. Then, of course, there are matters such as the temperature of the blast, the time to hold individual batches to, how to adjust the air mixture of the process for different ore inclusions, and so on. I seriously doubt any engineer or whatever passes for them in the Commonwealth will hit upon that in five years of trial and error. I only know such matters on account of an education that took nearly that long of constant work, and my degree was focused into exactly that - ferrous metallurgy.

Granted, that iron will be superior to the hammering and bloom-making process currently in use in the Commonwealth. But the design of a converter and her operation are exactly the sort of things that won't be part of any sort of technology exchange, certainly.

[Plzen]

-skepticism-

It’s not consistency I’m worried about so much as the efficiency.

If I can churn out 15th Century quality steel in industrial quantities, that’s good enough for internal tool-making and export purposes; it’s not like I’m going to be making precision wristwatches with that metal.

And that requires very little of all the complexity you’ve just described.

EDIT: Revised for typos

[G-Tech Corporation]

-skepticism-

It’s not consistency I’m worried about so much as the efficiency.

If I can churn out 15th Century quality steel in industrial quantities, that’s good enough for internal tool-making and export purposes; it’s not like I’m going to be making precision wristwatches with that metal.

And that requires very little of all the complexity you’ve just described.

EDIT: Revised for typos

Ah, but there I disagree - the complexity is exactly the important part. Without a proper flux material, Bessemer steel will bind carbon in her bubbling like anything - and iron with a carbon content a percentage or two too high will be of a brittle cast, hardly suitable for tools or stressful applications like axes, saws, and the like. If you hold the batch too long over heat, you'll promote excessive crystal growth, removing all useful dislocations from the metal ion lattices, rendering the iron nearly as soft as copper - again, terribly disadvantageous for actual uses iron might be wanted for. And there are a dozen other methods that can ruin a cast just as easily.

Bessemer steel and decarburization are excellent processes if you know what you are doing, because of the pure fact that they allow for faster processing than traditional bloomery ovens or finery forges. But without that knowledge, you'll just be ruining your ore, but in such a manner that nobody will realize the tools are worthless until they fail their owners at the test.

[Joohan]

See, this is what happens when you look at the world through dynastic logic. You get all sorts of freaky nonsense.

Adopt Republicanism - protect your people’s reproductive organs.

But Plzen, think of the business opportunities.

Eunuchs make good guards and advisors. The Commonwealth-Nara eunuch trade is a gold mine waiting to happen.

I don't know why, but I feel attacked by this.

[Plzen]

-snip-

Both of those are fairly solvable with educated guessing supplemented with good old brute force trial and error. Again, something needs not be perfect to be useful.

I’m not an engineer, so Clara isn’t either. But I did get a much better education in the natural sciences than the typical American (or, for that matter, Canadian) secondary school graduate has. Given that, and given the basic principles of how something works, the rest is just time and effort.

[Joohan]

-snip-

Both of those are fairly solvable with educated guessing supplemented with good old brute force trial and error. Again, something needs not be perfect to be useful.

I’m not an engineer, so Clara isn’t either. But I did get a much better education in the natural sciences than the typical American (or, for that matter, Canadian) secondary school graduate has. Given that, and given the basic principles of how something works, the rest is just time and effort.

I totally forgot the Bessemer process. Most of my discoveries are the result of the massive amount of resources I have at my disposal through the service.

[Bortslovakia]

How has Icedonian - Hibernian trade been over the time skip? I imagine quite amiable. From the ship you gave us, we'd have completely disassembled it to study it and put it back together for stress tests, as well as having interviewed plenty of sailors on sailing techniques.

Pretty much, with plenty of Service incentive and intervention, we've been constructing and distributing ships out to Service merchants to do considerable trade with the Hibernians.

Who produces steel in Hibernia? Who is it distributed to? Could it be sold to Icedonian merchants in exchange for tamed horses?

I'd say that's reasonable. Of course, building the infrastructure necessary to mass produce ships is a task in of itself, but as of 2980 you probably have a few state funded merchant ventures going. Most private trade would still be done via Hibernian, and Commonwealth ships though. By comparison, both states have a 10-15 year head start on Icedonia, meaning they're fielding vastly more craft.

Steel for horses would be pretty lucrative, especially since the steel trade in Scandinavia is likely drying up. Independent production and all that. Guaire is still kicking about as the leading private producer. Most towns have there own smiths by now, though things like the Bessemer Process are not particularly widespread. Namely because, unlike Clara, Pat lacks access to Viktor's work as a guide, meaning he had to develop it from scratch with only a theoretical understanding. As of this moment, primitive processes are more reliable, even if it takes 20x longer.

As for distribution, a host of merchants have that honor. Few large companies have cropped up yet, making for an open market.

[Ralnis]

I am jealous everyone has steel yet me and Universal barely got basic ironworking.

[G-Tech Corporation]

-snip-

Both of those are fairly solvable with educated guessing supplemented with good old brute force trial and error. Again, something needs not be perfect to be useful.

I’m not an engineer, so Clara isn’t either. But I did get a much better education in the natural sciences than the typical American (or, for that matter, Canadian) has. Given that, and given the basic principles of how something works, the rest is just time and effort.

Sure, sure. And I'm sure the first men to consider bubbling flue gases through their molten converters thought the same - that weight of trial and error would tell the tale - and yet Bessemer himself couldn't explain the process well enough to even license it, spending nearly his entire lifetime just to get the process sturdy enough to replicate.

You're talking about brute forcing a rather precise combination of soils of a precise characteristic at a specific thickness of coating within the converter, using a precise heat and velocity of flue gas with additives, for a precise amount of time at a precise heat of the converter itself (separate from the flue gas). Then the mixture has to be allowed to heat for a particular period of time, varied by the quality and nature of the impurities within the cast, before the process is resumed. Then the cast itself must be treated at particular moments in the crystal growth process with alloying agents, or else it will form excessive inclusions of the flue gas agents and be rendered "hot rotten".

Even I, with an education specifically on the topic, ICly took several years to get the process right, due to the variability of locally available ingredients and technological constraints. Unless the Northmen make off with the contents of an entire forge and all of her staff, I really can't see them stumbling upon the solution through dumb luck combined with a one sentence sketch of the process within a decade or three, let alone five years.

Iron is one thing. It is a pretty forgiving metal, all things considered, since something useless for a certain process may be used for another. But good steel is an art form, exactly why it took so long for mankind to develop.

[Plzen]

-snip-

Ah well. It’s pointless to argue with someone who dislikes losing arguments. I guess the Commonwealth will be using iron for some more time still. Not as durable as steel, but quantity still has a quality of its own.

Can always have an enterprising metallurgist send a raiding party down once you have more inhabited coast than is defensible.

[G-Tech Corporation]

-snip-

Ah well. It’s pointless to argue with someone who dislikes losing arguments. I guess the Commonwealth will be using iron for some more time still. Not as durable as steel, but quantity still has a quality of its own and we’ve the second largest population in Europe.

Can always have an enterprising metallurgist send a raiding party down once you have more inhabited coast than is defensible.

Well, it is essentially the only thing in this RP I am a hard expert on. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention such things.

Edit: Unless, of course, you feel like discussing environmental sustainability in terms of national policy?

[Plzen]

Well, it is essentially the only thing in this RP I am a hard expert on. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention such things.

Considering that the Imperium supposedly also has the best-organised and resilient polity in the RP, I very much doubt that is the only field you’ll have a hard advantage in.

[Joohan]

How has Icedonian - Hibernian trade been over the time skip? I imagine quite amiable. From the ship you gave us, we'd have completely disassembled it to study it and put it back together for stress tests, as well as having interviewed plenty of sailors on sailing techniques.

Pretty much, with plenty of Service incentive and intervention, we've been constructing and distributing ships out to Service merchants to do considerable trade with the Hibernians.

Who produces steel in Hibernia? Who is it distributed to? Could it be sold to Icedonian merchants in exchange for tamed horses?

I'd say that's reasonable. Of course, building the infrastructure necessary to mass produce ships is a task in of itself, but as of 2980 you probably have a few state funded merchant ventures going. Most private trade would still be done via Hibernian, and Commonwealth ships though. By comparison, both states have a 10-15 year head start on Icedonia, meaning they're fielding vastly more craft.

Steel for horses would be pretty lucrative, especially since the steel trade in Scandinavia is likely drying up. Independent production and all that. Guaire is still kicking about as the leading private producer. Most towns have there own smiths by now, though things like the Bessemer Process are not particularly widespread. Namely because, unlike Clara, Pat lacks access to Viktor's work as a guide, meaning he had to develop it from scratch with only a theoretical understanding. As of this moment, primitive processes are more reliable, even if it takes 20x longer.

As for distribution, a host of merchants have that honor. Few large companies have cropped up yet, making for an open market.

That's sound's good. I didn't know if steel was a closely guarded resource like it is in the Imperium. Tamed horses are our equivalent to steel then ( rearing horses being something that I actually am well acquainted with ).

As for the ships based off the Queen's Dance, we've probably built their number in like the single digits - and have distributed them to Service approved merchants. Question though, what's the maximum of cargo and men that one of these ships can hold? I'd imagine anything meant to carry a horse or two would need to be somewhat sizable.

[Joohan]

My final campaign post got deleted earlier today - but not too worry. I think I'll be done with it tonight.

[Bortslovakia]

I'd say that's reasonable. Of course, building the infrastructure necessary to mass produce ships is a task in of itself, but as of 2980 you probably have a few state funded merchant ventures going. Most private trade would still be done via Hibernian, and Commonwealth ships though. By comparison, both states have a 10-15 year head start on Icedonia, meaning they're fielding vastly more craft.

Steel for horses would be pretty lucrative, especially since the steel trade in Scandinavia is likely drying up. Independent production and all that. Guaire is still kicking about as the leading private producer. Most towns have there own smiths by now, though things like the Bessemer Process are not particularly widespread. Namely because, unlike Clara, Pat lacks access to Viktor's work as a guide, meaning he had to develop it from scratch with only a theoretical understanding. As of this moment, primitive processes are more reliable, even if it takes 20x longer.

As for distribution, a host of merchants have that honor. Few large companies have cropped up yet, making for an open market.

That's sound's good. I didn't know if steel was a closely guarded resource like it is in the Imperium. Tamed horses are our equivalent to steel then ( rearing horses being something that I actually am well acquainted with ).

As for the ships based off the Queen's Dance, we've probably built their number in like the single digits - and have distributed them to Service approved merchants. Question though, what's the maximum of cargo and men that one of these ships can hold? I'd imagine anything meant to carry a horse or two would need to be somewhat sizable.

Yeah the Queen's Dance is the equivalent of a racing sloop, designed for fast transport of important individuals. It has enough hullspace for supplies, and little more (though it does have a rather large strongbox for its guests). Steel isn't too guarded, since it's frankly in such low supply that the market can't really be flooded. Plus Hibernia is not nearly as stingy with its tech.

For ship size, that really depends. Like I said earlier, as of this timeskip we've started implemented proper ship classes. The average Trireme had a crew of 200, with most being rowers. Thanks to the lateen sail, we don't need to rely on rowers nearly as much. Pre timeskip, I'd say an Irish longship had a maximum compliment of 120. Merchant ships have likely gotten significantly larger since then. So probably 150-200. The largest can probably carry two to three horses, with little else beyond necessary supplies for the journey. I imagine horse merchants would sell other high demand luxury goods as well, to maximize their profits per trip.

Just a thought, some joint Icedonian-Hibernian private ventures could be a thing in the future. It's already happened with the Commonwealth, and there's more profit to be made for merchants by working together.

[Auze]

With or without the penises?

Well look, making eunuchs with is terrible and immoral. Eunuchs without (which was historically done by many in the mideast slave trade) is even worse, as infection rates are higher and as a best case scenario the poor dude pees through a straw. It's possible, as the urine valves are higher up in the body. Basically, I did way more research than ever should be done on this subject and I feel like everyone else shall suffer for it.

[Ralnis]

Damn, I'm also behind on sailing tech with Europe as well. At least the first experimental cogs and sailing ships will be around in short order. Give it a year or two.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Well, it is essentially the only thing in this RP I am a hard expert on. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention such things.

Considering that the Imperium supposedly also has the best-organised and resilient polity in the RP, I very much doubt that is the only field you’ll have a hard advantage in.

Oh, I wouldn’t say resilient. That honor certainly goes to Icedonia or Hibernia, by dint of limited geographical expanse and cultural homogeneity.

Damn, I'm also behind on sailing tech with Europe as well. At least the first experimental cogs and sailing ships will be around in short order. Give it a year or two.

Out of curiosity, you mentioned Sumerian ships in the Med - does Sumeria own the Levant then?

[Ralnis]

Considering that the Imperium supposedly also has the best-organised and resilient polity in the RP, I very much doubt that is the only field you’ll have a hard advantage in.

Oh, I wouldn’t say resilient. That honor certainly goes to Icedonia or Hibernia, by dint of limited geographical expanse and cultural homogeneity.

Damn, I'm also behind on sailing tech with Europe as well. At least the first experimental cogs and sailing ships will be around in short order. Give it a year or two.

Out of curiosity, you mentioned Sumerian ships in the Med - does Sumeria own the Levant then?

Oh no, those ships are bought from Egypt and coastal nations from the Levant. Most of those wave the flag but they are no more than civilian commercial ships. They work for Sumer by either loan or to give them a cut of the profits. The main fleets, even commercial ones, are in the Arabian skirting around the Peninsula and in the Red Sea. Or they skirt the coast to Indus and Northern and Western India to trade with the tribes there or have the Dilmun do it for them.

[UniversalCommons]

Ah well. It’s pointless to argue with someone who dislikes losing arguments. I guess the Commonwealth will be using iron for some more time still. Not as durable as steel, but quantity still has a quality of its own and we’ve the second largest population in Europe.

Can always have an enterprising metallurgist send a raiding party down once you have more inhabited coast than is defensible.

Well, it is essentially the only thing in this RP I am a hard expert on. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention such things.

Edit: Unless, of course, you feel like discussing environmental sustainability in terms of national policy?

I think being able to make bessemer steel, makes you a hard expert on building your basic mill process and early industrialization-- steel mill, water mill, saw mill, grain mill, water wheel, mill town all of which you have mentioned. This is the industrialization process which would include carpentry, plumbing, sewers, aqueducts, slate roads, glass, cork, clay, brick, cement, iron chains, steel chains and eventually steam engines, and coal. This then leads to mining for iron and metallurgy. It is a package which others do not have. Eventually it leads to alum or aluminum, chemical distillation and other industrial processes. Then rope ways, tracks ways and eventually flywheels and turbines for power, very likely the pelton turbine and the wind mill. Maybe diesel engines soon after. I am just speculating.

[Plzen]

-snip-

Interesting to read.

The Commonwealth has taken the opposite approach to shipbuilding - our newer and more sophisticated vessels are substantially more durable and have slightly higher cargo capacity, but in terms of raw size they’re actually smaller than the older longships.

Simply put, the Commonwealth has no need for a ship that seats 150 crew and, even if we had one, wouldn’t be able to find people to crew it efficiently.

The vessel that Jórunn is sailing in my last post is a real sailboat, with no room for oarsmen. Three shifts of four people each can keep the ship moving forwards. The downside, of course, is that sailing upwind is somewhat slower.

Our longships could seat maybe 40 rowers, 50 in a stretch. With the exception of the largest navy vessels designed with open battle in mind, none of our newer ships seat that many.

[Plzen]

Speaking of sailing, Joohan, Bortslovakia, and G-Tech, you guys know how to sail a sailboat against the wind? If you don’t, and you need to rely on rowers to sail against the wind, that would be an amazing advantage for the Commonwealth to hold... at least in those few years until you copy off our techniques.

[Bortslovakia]

-snip-

Interesting to read.

The Commonwealth has taken the opposite approach to shipbuilding - our newer and more sophisticated vessels are substantially more durable and have slightly higher cargo capacity, but in terms of raw size they’re actually smaller than the older longships.

Simply put, the Commonwealth has no need for a ship that seats 150 crew and, even if we had one, wouldn’t be able to find people to crew it efficiently.

The vessel that Jórunn is sailing in my last post is a real sailboat, with no room for oarsmen. Three shifts of four people each can keep the ship moving forwards. The downside, of course, is that sailing upwind is somewhat slower.

Our longships could seat maybe 40 rowers, 50 in a stretch. With the exception of the largest navy vessels designed with open battle in mind, none of our newer ships seat that many.

Mind you, the average Irish ship is still going to only have a crew of like 70-80. And those ships that do have 120-150 are primarily made up of oarsmen, usually employed from tribes in Britain, or along the coast of western Europe. There are exceptions of course, such as purpose built warships, and on average the Irish strategy is definitely focused on larger craft. The comparison between the Commonwealth and Hibernia would probably be galleys v heavies in eu4 (minus the fact heavy ships are stupidly OP).

Speaking of sailing upwind, though, Borts, Joohan, and G-Tech, you guys know how to sail a boat upwind? If you don’t, that would be an amazing advantage for the Commonwealth Navy to have in the seas. If you don’t know how to sail upwind you need to rely on rowers and that means a decent baby is a huge drain on your manpower.

We use lateen sails for a reason

[Plzen]

Mind you, the average Irish ship is still going to only have a crew of like 70-80. And those ships that do have 120-150 are primarily made up of oarsmen, usually employed from tribes in Britain, or along the coast of western Europe. There are exceptions of course, such as purpose built warships, and on average the Irish strategy is definitely focused on larger craft. The comparison between the Commonwealth and Hibernia would probably be galleys v heavies in eu4 (minus the fact heavy ships are stupidly OP).

...I don't think that comparison works at all. Galleys tend to be small, rowed craft and heavies are large, exclusively-sailed craft. In this case we have larger ships with oars against smaller, exclusively-sailed ships.

From the perspective of the Commonwealth, putting another 50 or 60 people on a ship for benefits that are extremely marginal except in unfavourable weather conditions is just not worth doing. Given 80 crew, we'd rather put 2~3 properly-sized and armed sailing warships on the waves, instead of putting those 80 on the same ship and expecting them to row.

We use lateen sails for a reason

Yeah, that's what I expected... but it doesn't hurt to ask. I've nothing to lose if you say yes and everything to gain if it turns out you didn't.

[Ralnis]

Shit, true sailing tech for cogs and caravels are just experimental boats in hopes of reaching to India better than in further hopes of colonizing the islands between the Middle East and India and prepare for their Imperial Age. I mean Europe gets all the cool toys while Asia is non-existent and the Near East continuously lags behind.