New Civilizations ( OOC, Always Open, Reboot )

[Bortslovakia]

Fair enough. As for the League, I've couched everything in language that at the very least negates that issue. In fact, the only thing that really poses any kind of a threat to traditional roles so far is that chiefs/lords/whatever don't have direct control of their soldiers (which many ignore or subvert anyway). The Mayors outside of Drogheda are basically powerless. So far the only reason the lords of the Leage participate is because they haven't lost much while gaining significant security. As I've said a few times, Ireland is very fragile right now. Pat needs to earn their loyalty and respect before reforming anything. Dublin has relatively agreeable practices since most of the founders weren't very religious or entrenched, being refugees and all. Other villages though have plenty of activities that Pat would call distasteful at best, such as slavery. Those are definitely themes I intend to explore at some point (though human sacrifice isn't really noted in Irish prehistory as being a major feature. Just megalith building)

There is the example of the Wicker Man by the Druids although this is questionable and the people being sacrificed were criminals. It makes for a good story, but probably is not true. The god Taranis is who the wicker effigy is supposedly for. He is part of the Irish pantheon.

The Celts aren't even around in Britain yet, let alone the validity of the Wicker Man stories.

Fair enough. As for the League, I've couched everything in language that at the very least negates that issue. In fact, the only thing that really poses any kind of a threat to traditional roles so far is that chiefs/lords/whatever don't have direct control of their soldiers (which many ignore or subvert anyway). The Mayors outside of Drogheda are basically powerless. So far the only reason the lords of the Leage participate is because they haven't lost much while gaining significant security. As I've said a few times, Ireland is very fragile right now. Pat needs to earn their loyalty and respect before reforming anything. Dublin has relatively agreeable practices since most of the founders weren't very religious or entrenched, being refugees and all. Other villages though have plenty of activities that Pat would call distasteful at best, such as slavery. Those are definitely themes I intend to explore at some point (though human sacrifice isn't really noted in Irish prehistory as being a major feature. Just megalith building)

Didn't the first crannog builders practice human sacrifice ( more on the lines of a last resort than say the constant spectacle many imagine), In fact I do believe it is believed now that many human sacrifices were of those who represented the gods like priests and kings who were thought to have failed in their duties, as we see in better documented ancient societies. Not entirely related but certainly pertinent.

What little research I've done indicates that the earliest Bog Body with skin was found in Ireland yes, but that wasn't until around 2000 BCE. I wouldn't be surprised if it started earlier, but a thousand years is a long time and currently nothing suggests human sacrifice of that nature was common before then.

[UniversalCommons]

I'm wondering who would be wandering around trading in the Meditteranean at this point. There would be Egypt, Mesopotamia, Crete, Troy, some people from the Black Sea, the Aegean. Would anyone from Somalia the Kingdom of Punt be around in a boat with Ivory, myrrh, ebony, frankincense, possibly strange wild animals, and cinnamon. Who else might make it (possibly). Would anyone from India show up. At this point we would have reed boats, dugout canoes, skin boats, Egypt would have sail and so would Mesopotamia. There would be small boats from fishing villages. http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/Hi ... ric_Craft/

The horn of Africa likely doesnt know about the Mediterranean civilizations ( beyond Egypt). And technology does not exist to the extent that trade from India to the western world would be profitable - let alone any demand for luxury goods.

India traded with Ur. However, they did not reach into the Meditteranean. They reached as far as Syria. This creates a kind of odd situation where there are strange goods which are in Ur which the Meditteranean does not know exist. It would generate some odd ideas. It would be a mystery. We might get things like the story of Tiger from Den which would be completely wrong, or monkeys as little men.
http://factsanddetails.com/india/Histor ... -4103.html

[Hanafuridake]

There is the example of the Wicker Man by the Druids although this is questionable and the people being sacrificed were criminals. It makes for a good story, but probably is not true. The god Taranis is who the wicker effigy is supposedly for. He is part of the Irish pantheon.

Taranis is the continental name for him, Tuireann is the Irish.

It's hard for me to visualize him as a violent thunder god because the Children of Tuireann depicted him as an old grief-stricken man.

[Bortslovakia]

There is the example of the Wicker Man by the Druids although this is questionable and the people being sacrificed were criminals. It makes for a good story, but probably is not true. The god Taranis is who the wicker effigy is supposedly for. He is part of the Irish pantheon.

Taranis is the continental name for him, Tuireann is the Irish.

It's hard for me to visualize him as a violent thunder god because the Children of Tuireann depicted him as an old grief-stricken man.

Tuireann has some very strange suggested images on Google for the record. Most being vaguely relevant at best. Turns out a related god was stolen for a Hutt in some early 2000s game

[UniversalCommons]

Thinking of doing the classic number where you force a port open for trade like the US did with China or Japan (commercial imperialism).

[Reatra]

Thinking of doing the classic number where you force a port open for trade like the US did with China or Japan (commercial imperialism).

But what ports? We're not really in the era where kings/priests are disallowing trade between certain polities yet.

Hell I doubt even G-Tech's imperium would have the capability to do so anyway.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Thinking of doing the classic number where you force a port open for trade like the US did with China or Japan (commercial imperialism).

But what ports? We're not really in the era where kings/priests are disallowing trade between certain polities yet.

Hell I doubt even G-Tech's imperium would have the capability to do so anyway.

Tbf, we're also not really in the era where long-distance trade took place directly, save by the proactive measures of kings and priests. Most of what we call trade routes in this era are actually long chains of local transactions slowly moving goods over vast distances.

[UniversalCommons]

But what ports? We're not really in the era where kings/priests are disallowing trade between certain polities yet.

Hell I doubt even G-Tech's imperium would have the capability to do so anyway.

Tbf, we're also not really in the era where long-distance trade took place directly, save by the proactive measures of kings and priests. Most of what we call trade routes in this era are actually long chains of local transactions slowly moving goods over vast distances.

I was not thinking so much of a port, but forcing the Novirossyk to trade horses after they try and lay siege to Abinsk. More like a balance of power situation. The chief of Novirossyk decides to take care of his brother and lays siege to Abinsk with the help of some other tribesmen. We show up get some help and force Novirossyk to give us horses for attacking Abinsk. Open your city to trade or we burn everything.

[Bortslovakia]

Tbf, we're also not really in the era where long-distance trade took place directly, save by the proactive measures of kings and priests. Most of what we call trade routes in this era are actually long chains of local transactions slowly moving goods over vast distances.

I was not thinking so much of a port, but forcing the Novirossyk to trade horses after they try and lay siege to Abinsk. More like a balance of power situation. The chief of Novirossyk decides to take care of his brother and lays siege to Abinsk with the help of some other tribesmen. We show up get some help and force Novirossyk to give us horses for attacking Abinsk. Open your city to trade or we burn everything.

Sounds more like a tribute/war reparations situation than Gunboat diplomacy, assuming "get some help" translates to "build up an army and kick their ass." I could be misinterpreting what you mean though. A bit of posturing from a position of strength usually results in at the very least short term gain in an international state of anarchy

[Hanafuridake]

But what ports? We're not really in the era where kings/priests are disallowing trade between certain polities yet.

Hell I doubt even G-Tech's imperium would have the capability to do so anyway.

Gunboat diplomacy requires some technological edge over other polities, which none of us are even close to. We might have better armor, weapons, and tactics than the paleolithic peoples, but that's not anywhere close to the overwhelming power of firearms and battleships.

[Plzen]

Tbf, we're also not really in the era where long-distance trade took place directly, save by the proactive measures of kings and priests. Most of what we call trade routes in this era are actually long chains of local transactions slowly moving goods over vast distances.

...for now.

"Aye, 'tis said from the the northern isles to the Levant what a wretched port is that which harbours not a Scandinavian."

[UniversalCommons]

Basically, I was thinking along the lines of classic dickery. Not so much diplomacy, but I hate you you didn't pay me, lets go kill them. Sitalkes comes home gives a speech at the warrior school about how he wasn't paid for his victories, claims novirossiysk is without honor and whips some of the school into a frenzy asking for additional volunteers for his expedition. He then takes a playbook from Rholes changing some of the wording talking about strength of arms and the right way to live. He sends messages to other warrior groups at Abdera and Alec the Badgers Fortress inviting them to come on his expedition. He speaks to the council asking for the troublemakers-- he will teach them discipline on the way to novirussiysk. Then he goes to the temple and sacrifices a bull to the war god asking for the blessing of the priests in this endeavor. Crusader nonsense. The kind of thinking that motivates a bunch of crazy chalcolithic warriors to attack a city (the kind of thing that occurs in the Odyssey or the Aenaeid) in some measure where you gather the ships.

[Achidyemay]

Oh, and horses. Lots of horses. Horses good. Maybe introduce Kumis?

Wooooo Kumis!

[Joohan]

I'm in the field till friday. Do expect a post up by sayurday

[Joohan]

Tbf, we're also not really in the era where long-distance trade took place directly, save by the proactive measures of kings and priests. Most of what we call trade routes in this era are actually long chains of local transactions slowly moving goods over vast distances.

I was not thinking so much of a port, but forcing the Novirossyk to trade horses after they try and lay siege to Abinsk. More like a balance of power situation. The chief of Novirossyk decides to take care of his brother and lays siege to Abinsk with the help of some other tribesmen. We show up get some help and force Novirossyk to give us horses for attacking Abinsk. Open your city to trade or we burn everything.

I think you'd lose such a battle. In an era were transportation tech is so limited, waiting on reinforcements to come from.Nestos out of the black sea might mean death.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Basically, I was thinking along the lines of classic dickery. Not so much diplomacy, but I hate you you didn't pay me, lets go kill them. Sitalkes comes home gives a speech at the warrior school about how he wasn't paid for his victories, claims novirossiysk is without honor and whips some of the school into a frenzy asking for additional volunteers for his expedition. He then takes a playbook from Rholes changing some of the wording talking about strength of arms and the right way to live. He sends messages to other warrior groups at Abdera and Alec the Badgers Fortress inviting them to come on his expedition. He speaks to the council asking for the troublemakers-- he will teach them discipline on the way to novirussiysk. Then he goes to the temple and sacrifices a bull to the war god asking for the blessing of the priests in this endeavor. Crusader nonsense. The kind of thinking that motivates a bunch of crazy chalcolithic warriors to attack a city (the kind of thing that occurs in the Odyssey or the Aenaeid) in some measure where you gather the ships.

Hum. Isn’t Oak kinda founded on resenting aggression though?

[UniversalCommons]

Basically, I was thinking along the lines of classic dickery. Not so much diplomacy, but I hate you you didn't pay me, lets go kill them. Sitalkes comes home gives a speech at the warrior school about how he wasn't paid for his victories, claims novirossiysk is without honor and whips some of the school into a frenzy asking for additional volunteers for his expedition. He then takes a playbook from Rholes changing some of the wording talking about strength of arms and the right way to live. He sends messages to other warrior groups at Abdera and Alec the Badgers Fortress inviting them to come on his expedition. He speaks to the council asking for the troublemakers-- he will teach them discipline on the way to novirussiysk. Then he goes to the temple and sacrifices a bull to the war god asking for the blessing of the priests in this endeavor. Crusader nonsense. The kind of thinking that motivates a bunch of crazy chalcolithic warriors to attack a city (the kind of thing that occurs in the Odyssey or the Aenaeid) in some measure where you gather the ships.

Hum. Isn’t Oak kinda founded on resenting aggression though?

It is founded on substituting military aggression for aggressive trade, aggressive sports, or aggressive innovation. There is a kind of either or thing going on where you either trade or you fight. Trade or science is preferred. You can either fight or climb a mountain. The aggression is still there in the background, there is a school for warriors. Think of it as a slow fuse.

There is a tug going on between mercantile expansionism which can be aggressive and outright warfare. Oak is founded on soft power. There is a point where if people refuse to buy your goods, the gloves come off. This is where you get things like the Opium wars in China or the East India company or the Dutch Indies Company. Outwardly it appears to be not aggressive. A bunch of traders show up at your doorstep, maybe they are Vikings for example, they are content with trade until you insult them and give them an excuse to demand trade with an axe and eventually it escalates to the point where they just take what they want. In some ways this kind of behavior can be more dangerous than outright imperialism.

[Ralnis]

So it seems that Oak was made in a way how Luther is trying to craft Ur into becoming. At least when it comes to trade. I see the two clashing for their spheres of influence.

[Bortslovakia]

Hum. Isn’t Oak kinda founded on resenting aggression though?

It is founded on substituting military aggression for aggressive trade or aggressive innovation. There is a kind of either or thing going on where you either trade or you fight. Trade or science is preferred. You can either fight or climb a mountain. The aggression is still there in the background, there is a school for warriors.

There is a tug going on between mercantile expansionism which can be aggressive and outright warfare. Oak is founded on soft power. There is a point where if people refuse to buy your goods, the gloves come off. This is where you get things like the Opium wars in China or the East India company or the Dutch Indies Company. Outwardly it appears to be not aggressive. A bunch of traders show up at your doorstep, maybe they are Vikings for example, they are content with trade until you insult them and give them an excuse to demand trade with an axe and eventually it escalates to the point where they just take what they want. In some ways this kind of behavior can be more dangerous than outright imperialism.

My inner political science nerd is coming out a bit, but...

Soft power is the use of influence to achieve what you want without coercion. Hard power is gunboat diplomacy, posturing, sanctions, military strength, etc. So "trade or die" would pretty solidly be hard power.

The Opium War was in fact quite aggressive, and quite a big deal. Chinese markets didn't need European goods, as Qing China was effectively self sustaining in terms of resources (at least to an extent that the Imperial court felt comfortable enough to continue with the dated tributary outlook on foreign policy). Opium is, as is true with the entire drug trade, always in demand, especially when use is rampant like it was in China at the time. Europeans had been looking for a way to open Chinese markets for some time by this point anyway, and the Qing clamping down on the drug trade was Britain's opening.

Both events you listed fit the classic definition of imperialism

The Norse were good at a lot of things, trading and raiding being only two examples. In fact the merchants were usually disconnected from the machinations of warbands and adventurers. More commonly the raiders would demand Wergelds (tribute) from cities. This is what led to the French saying fuck it and giving the Norse land in Normandy.

[UniversalCommons]

So it seems that Oak was made in a way how Luther is trying to craft Ur into becoming. At least when it comes to trade. I see the two clashing for their spheres of influence.

It would probably be a slow burn. We would be very open to trade with Ur. Basically, there would have to be a series of escalating provocations leading to a kind of cold war. I would see it like the condition between China and Russia where there are differences and tension but not necessarily outright warfare. We want the goods, not the land.

We think we need horses. Victor is aware of the Yamnaya conquering large swathes of Europe. We are willing to be aggressive to get them. The Yamnaya tribesmen around 3000 bc showed up in Europe and conquered lots of land. It would be an aggressive preventive action. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/02 ... population

So we start without coercion, then we harden. Basically, we try and trade we get rebuffed then we demand that they trade for horses. We do have a group that is willing to trade, but to trade with them, we have to go to war with their neighbor.

[Auze]

Author Application

Name: Tazenpas Lycwl (stolen from Dwarf fortress name generator, goes by Tazenpas)
Age: 17
Height and Weight: 5', 10" 130 lbs
Skin, hair, and eye description: Skin mostly pale white under clothing, mild tan in exposed areas

Prior Profession: student
Level of education ( specify degrees or note worthy classes ): High school, fairly good in history, science, and math but not taking any relevant AP classes
Physique description: not very strong or fast, but isn't exactly weak either
Useful skills: a few millennia of hindsight, memorized how plantations work, as well as early developments. Was a massive Wikipedia reader on cultivation.

National Origin: United States (South Carolina)
What were you doing prior to falling asleep and awakening in the past?: reading a book
Description of personality: kinda troubled and not the most rational, but can do thing when he gets his mind to it.
Where in the world are you landing?: Ternate

Autobiography/Biography ( paragraph minimum ): Grew up in a middle class household in the suburbs of North Charleston. Specialized in History in school, though got good grades overall. In hindsight, probably shouldn't have chosen computer science or electrical engineer as a future job, considering where he's about to go.


( Optional on down)
What are your intentions for this RP, what's the long term goal?: Found, and become the main adviser in a civilization and take over all of the world Indonesia the spice islands.

[Reatra]

Yo high intensity mariculture is like,,, really good

[New Arcadius]

Oh, and horses. Lots of horses. Horses good. Maybe introduce Kumis?

Wooooo Kumis!

Import some Horses to the Siwi Oasis and we'll make some Kumis!

[Ralnis]

Wooooo Kumis!

Import some Horses to the Siwi Oasis and we'll make some Kumis!

Seems Ur needs to make another trade expedition to the Kingdoms of Egypt.

[Plzen]

Post up.

The first viking raid and the beginning of slavery?