New Civilizations ( OOC, Always Open, Reboot )

[Plzen]

So you're saying the Norse don't have the value of abhorring arbitrary detention and execution conducted by an unsupervised government body?

I find that very hard to believe - nay, impossible.

"Arbitrary?" "Unsupervised?"

That is an Imperial perspective. From the perspective of the Commonwealth, the Administration and all of its organs, including the Committee that everyone seems to be up in arms about mostly because I had a bit of fun naming it, act neither arbitrarily nor without supervision. I believe I've mentioned several times that the Commonwealth is a parliamentary state - the executive branch of government is strictly subservient to, and serves at the discretion of, the legislature. If the Stórþing votes to abolish the Committee next Regular Session then abolished it will be.

[Joohan]

the Commonwealth is a parliamentary state - the executive branch of government is strictly subservient to, and serves at the discretion of, the legislature.

Oh the possibilities for your future. Come Clara, embrace the new world and cast aside the ideals of a bygone era. Don't let these cavemen hold you back - stop giving power to ignorant children and just take it for yourself!

All the cool kids are doing it...

[G-Tech Corporation]

"Arbitrary?"

Certainly. With an offense so minor and easy to falsify as 'proselytizing' on the books as a capital offense, the potential for abuse is both massive and, no doubt, already being utilized. Merchant offering prices which undercut a local vendor? Oi, I heard he has a cross in his cabin, string him up lads. New immigrant has a nice set of tamping tools? Officer, I'm pretty sure he said something about praying in the market, best execute him and sell his equipment off for pennies on the dollar.

Such a law, and the manner in which it is enforced, leaves any man or woman in danger of the ire of their neighbor, and those from outside the Commonwealth with no social mooring most of all. It is, indeed, the exact opposite of justice, and a situation a logical state should shun.

"Unsupervised?"

As you've illustrated at every turn where the CPS is mentioned, even members of the Strothing live in fear of drawing the eye of the Committee. Shall I quote for you?

"The member visibly paled at the mention of the Committee."

"Yeah... that was a good way to commit suicide."

"You have been uncooperative with the Committee's investigative efforts, and so the Committee has assigned you for death."

The Committee executes its own perverted brand of justice in the face of a legislative body terrified of getting on its wrong side, and happily executes suspects merely for the crime of not condemning themselves with their own lips. You can try and walk that description back and reform it if you want, but so long as the Commonwealth's radical elements embrace the right to excise members of their society with the flimsiest of pretexts via summary execution for imagined crimes, it is the duty of any society that embraces a rational interpretation of the relationship of man and the state to dismantle that corrupt cancer.

[Plzen]

I remain unconvinced that the Committee has done anything structurally wrong.

As you've illustrated at every turn where the CPS is mentioned, even members of the Strothing live in fear of drawing the eye of the Committee. Shall I quote for you?

"The member visibly paled at the mention of the Committee."

"Yeah... that was a good way to commit suicide."

Well, yes. A politician is quite scared of the idea of standing in as a defendant in a court. That happens in our modern democracies too, and nobody accuses the district attorney's here of being a totalitarian organisation... well... not often, anyways.

The fear is certainly rather larger with the Committee because the Committee is a far more brutal than a modern democratic court would be, what with the death penalty and hard labour, but considering that the Commonwealth can't exactly afford to run reformist prisons I think that's quite understandable.

"You have been uncooperative with the Committee's investigative efforts, and so the Committee has assigned you for death."

If I recall the post that quote comes from correctly, the person in question has already been accused of some other crime. Refusing to cooperate is not in itself a capital offence, but if you already have a capital offence on your head not taking the police's offer for a commuted sentence can definitely result in death.

[Joohan]

I remain unconvinced that the Committee has done anything structurally wrong.

As you've illustrated at every turn where the CPS is mentioned, even members of the Strothing live in fear of drawing the eye of the Committee. Shall I quote for you?

"The member visibly paled at the mention of the Committee."

"Yeah... that was a good way to commit suicide."

Well, yes. A politician is quite scared of the idea of standing in as a defendant in a court. That happens in our modern democracies too, and nobody accuses the district attorney's here of being a totalitarian organisation... well... not often, anyways.

The fear is certainly rather larger with the Committee because the Committee is a far more brutal than a modern democratic court would be, what with the death penalty and hard labour, but considering that the Commonwealth can't exactly afford to run reformist prisons I think that's quite understandable.

"You have been uncooperative with the Committee's investigative efforts, and so the Committee has assigned you for death."

If I recall the post that quote comes from correctly, the person in question has already been accused of some other crime. Refusing to cooperate is not in itself a capital offence, but if you already have a capital offence on your head not taking the police's offer for a commuted sentence can definitely result in death.

You did reference them as being akin to your own version of the SS or NKVD a while back I do distinctly remember.

[Bortslovakia]

I remain unconvinced that the Committee has done anything structurally wrong.

As you've illustrated at every turn where the CPS is mentioned, even members of the Strothing live in fear of drawing the eye of the Committee. Shall I quote for you?

"The member visibly paled at the mention of the Committee."

"Yeah... that was a good way to commit suicide."

Well, yes. A politician is quite scared of the idea of standing in as a defendant in a court. That happens in our modern democracies too, and nobody accuses the district attorney's here of being a totalitarian organisation... well... not often, anyways.

The fear is certainly rather larger with the Committee because the Committee is a far more brutal than a modern democratic court would be, what with the death penalty and hard labour, but considering that the Commonwealth can't exactly afford to run reformist prisons I think that's quite understandable.

"You have been uncooperative with the Committee's investigative efforts, and so the Committee has assigned you for death."

If I recall the post that quote comes from correctly, the person in question has already been accused of some other crime. Refusing to cooperate is not in itself a capital offence, but if you already have a capital offence on your head not taking the police's offer for a commuted sentence can definitely result in death.

Let's look at the powers of the CPS as they stand.

1. The right to summarily execute prisoners based on the findings of their own internal investigation.

2. The ability to preside over legal cases, including those involving representatives of the Storping.

3. Management and organization of elections in those portions of the Commonwealth where democracy has been formalized.

Like... even if you weren't going for a menacing vibe with them, you certainly can see why the rest of us feel the way we feel, right? Especially since you introduced them by wearing down a prisoner to the point where they couldn't even form a coherent sentence, then had them executed and dumped into the sea for absolutely no reason.

[Plzen]

You did reference them as being akin to your own version of the SS or NKVD a while back I do distinctly remember.

Oh, yes. That is certainly my vision - a fairly secretive institution that is not quite army division, not quite intelligence agency, not quite police, and not quite administrative bureaucracy, but with characteristics of all of those - and one of my many reasons for setting off this internal ideological powderkeg in the Commonwealth is to realise that vision more quickly. With the authority of the government undermined and with foreign interference pushing in, its not at all implausible that the law enforcement agency would also take on espionage/intelligence responsibilities as well as double down on their paramilitary organisation, is it?

That vision, though, is distinctly in the future. These be early days - the Committee is, what, all of a handful of years old? Oh yes... if the Imperium is offended at the Committee now, just watch what comes out on the other side of this civil strife.

---

Like... even if you weren't going for a menacing vibe with them, you certainly can see why the rest of us feel the way we feel, right? Especially since you introduced them by wearing down a prisoner to the point where they couldn't even form a coherent sentence, then had them executed and dumped into the sea for absolutely no reason.

I am going for a sinister, menacing vibe - that’s why I named the Committee the way I did, among other things - and you will see the Committee be a serious irritant in Norse democracy in the future. I’m pleased that this impression has been pulled off. I’m just surprised, and quite alarmed, at how much of a response it triggered. But it isn’t as autonomous an organisation as G-Tech seems to believe it is, nor will it ever be even at the height of its power.

One small quibble in that list of yours is that the Committee only judges cases that have been referred to them by a constituent state. The latest act is quite unusual in that the Committee has been referred an entire category of future crimes across an entire Republic - early signs of the consolidation of Committee power that will be a theme in the upcoming crisis.

[Ralnis]

Wait, a timeskip of over 50 years? Why the big jump?

[Joohan]

Wait, a timeskip of over 50 years? Why the big jump?

Never said that.

[G-Tech Corporation]

I remain unconvinced that the Committee has done anything structurally wrong.

Aside from the whole 'executing people for their beliefs' matter, of course.

Also I'm interested to see how you had no response for my notes on the arbitrary nature of the CPS' work. The way I see it - either the CPS has a stringent standard of evidence so as to prevent abuse, and so essentially ends up executing nobody due to the rather difficult to prove nature of 'proselytizing' and a bar of evidence beyond 'he said, she said' - or the alternative, which you have portrayed: that the CPS' purview is carried out with little regard for evidence or proof of violation of the law, rendering it so ripe for abuse as to be abhorrent to any society which values the rule of law and justice.

Thus the CPS, and the state that supports it, must be seen as repulsive organizations who execute foreigners and even their own people on trumped up charges under any pretext or none, purely at the discretion of traveling relatively unsupervised supra-local enforcement officers. That's how you get a society fed up with corruption and the mockery of justice which is the Commonwealth as a state.

[UniversalCommons]

I thought it was 50 years too. Almost everyone would be dead. We would have to create all new secondary characters. I am expecting quite a few secondary characters to die from old age, disease, or accident in the next time skip.

[Plzen]

IC post up! Kaupang’s segregationist policies results in a mass breakout, and the Committee investigates.

More fuel for the fire of Red-Blue dispute.

[G-Tech Corporation]

IC post up! Kaupang’s segregationist policies results in a mass breakout, and the Committee investigates.

More fuel for the fire of Red-Blue dispute.

Just to be clear, Kaupang = Amadasia?

[Cainesland]

My next post will probably be based around Bostwick working more on education policy.

Edit: So far the town of mountains cove has agreed that at 14 years old people should persue an apprenticeship as part of their education. That formalized something that had been status quo for a while now. Now their needs to decide on how to handle other years of education. For instance: Should it be formal or informal? Full time or part time? There may not be as much resources or manpower for full time.

[Plzen]

Just to be clear, Kaupang = Amadasia?

It’s not far from Oslo, in that general area. If I remember correctly the town is also marked on my map.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Just to be clear, Kaupang = Amadasia?

It’s not far from Oslo, in that general area. If I remember correctly the town is also marked on my map.

Ah, okay, so not the Swedish town I posted about - cool. Just checking.

[Plzen]

Ah, okay, so not the Swedish town I posted about - cool. Just checking.

Unrelated to your earlier post, yes.

[New Arcadius]

If things are wrapping up for a timeskip,

Then I think a good wrap for Gaukhar would be her trying to go around and unify the Berber tribes. Honestly, I don't know what else she would be doing during this time. She'd probably be trying to get some Nomarchs to marry some Siwan women to strengthen the relations between the Siwans and the Egyptians.

Maybe also at this time, Isisism aka Matriarchal Pagan Egyptian Islam, would be spreading too. I'm very sure it would probably reach Egypt. I think it would take on the time the "Isis Pantheon" as Isis is a central figure, but other Gods are in it too, but they serve as more of minor deities. So I think Isis might reach Egypt much earlier than our TL, and she'd a foreign god rather than their God. Who knows, I think the religion could be called the "Cult of Isis" or "Motherism" or something like that, considering it's mostly Monotheist with Isis seen as the only Goddess. It could probably find it's way across into Axum and Sumer, so they could probably learn about Gaukhar, and therefore, have an image of what she might look like. When they hear "foreign woman to their people", they'll probably get a bit suspicious considering the authors themselevs like Luther and the other guy could probably be like "wait, there's another? what the hell is going on here"

MAYBE it can give an excuse for Axumites to meet with Siwans, and perhaps, Gaukhar can make her first visit with an actual author if he gets curious and travels into the Western Desert.

Meanwhile, the Berber unification progress would probably continue, but would need 190 or 90 more years to completely unify. I can see the empire stretching further in the desert, with the might of Polygon 25 expanding it's black tendrils from that north Mediterranean sea city down to Farafa maybe? Or Khufra.

I think people who sees what Gaukhar is doing, is starting to get a reference to another famous leader who did the same

[UniversalCommons]

My next post will probably be based around Bostwick working more on education policy.

Edit: So far the town of mountains cove has agreed that at 14 years old people should persue an apprenticeship as part of their education. That formalized something that had been status quo for a while now. Now their needs to decide on how to handle other years of education. For instance: Should it be formal or informal? Full time or part time? There may not be as much resources or manpower for full time.

Do the associations offer additional training beyond apprenticeship and are there grades of mastery, apprentice, journeyman, craftsman, master craftsman, etc. as well as association specific specialty skills. For example the paper association might offer printing training, and specialty training for those who seek it. The sailors guild might offer knotwork, etc. The weavers guild might offer nalbinding, bead weaving, etc. Another way to focus on technology has not been mass production, but craftsmanship focused on quality production. This would be ongoing education towards mastery in a specific association. Certifications without the paper.

For example, you might become a carpenter, then choose a specialty and become a wainwright, or ship builder.

This applies equally to academic professions, some of the first universities were associations of students who hired teachers. I could imagine there would be a lawspeakers association with an apprenticeship in addition to formal education. A combination of both can be interesting.

[Cainesland]

My next post will probably be based around Bostwick working more on education policy.

Edit: So far the town of mountains cove has agreed that at 14 years old people should persue an apprenticeship as part of their education. That formalized something that had been status quo for a while now. Now their needs to decide on how to handle other years of education. For instance: Should it be formal or informal? Full time or part time? There may not be as much resources or manpower for full time.

Do the associations offer additional training beyond apprenticeship and are there grades of mastery, apprentice, journeyman, craftsman, master craftsman, etc. as well as association specific specialty skills. For example the paper association might offer printing training, and specialty training for those who seek it. The sailors guild might offer knotwork, etc. The weavers guild might offer nalbinding, bead weaving, etc.

Another way to focus on technology has not been mass production, but craftsmanship focused on quality production. This would be ongoing education towards mastery in a specific association. Certifications without the paper.

For example, you might become a carpenter, then choose a specialty and become a wainwright, or ship builder.

This applies equally to academic professions, some of the first universities were associations of students who hired teachers. I could imagine there would be a lawspeakers association with an apprenticeship in addition to formal education. A combination of both can be interesting.

I imagine the storytellers might take on the role of formal teachers in many cases. That there are 9 Lawspeakers in the Black Sea area limits their growth currently.

There are currently association ranks. You start as an apprentice When you are 14. Then after a minimum of 5 years you produce your capstone project. Your teacher will review the work. Quality control, making sure it’s not a forgery, etc. From there someone can become a journeyman. As a journeyman they receive full membership in the association, as well as the patronage of the organization and the benefits thereupon. For example, access to the grain mill for farmers or other capital infrastructure owned by the association. When they take an apprentice, upon the successful completion of their apprentices training they can become a master. So at minimum a master has 10 years of experience but may have more depending on how long they wait. There are some benefits to the master title, reputation for one. If you want a quality chair you can go to the master carpenter instead of the journeyman carpenter.

At this point, I think people may be more generalized but there may be regional specialities. For example a port town like mountains cove had Bostwick doing everything from gathering wood to building ships to building homes to building carts l during his carpentry apprentice. People in the interior may not focus as much on shipbuilding and may focus more on carts or homes. If someone wanted to learn a skill from another place they could persue apprenticeship in another region, or work as a journeyman under a master in that skill to learn more about it.

Should that skill be found elsewhere. For example let’s say someone freshly graduated apprenticeship from the weavers in Crimea. They are an excited journeyman, but want to specialize in linen or dyes. They would need to take a ship to Georgia. The Georgian Weavers Association are friendly with, but not the same group as the Crimean Weavers Association. There they could petition to work in that association and then find a master in Weaving to instruct them in linen weaving or dying and work for them as a way of learning. So there aren’t really specialized schools at this point, so much as you find someone who knows a skill and you work for them to learn. But specialty training should be out there for those that are interested provided that it’s developed.

You might also, as another example, have inter association co-operation. In specializing in ships, you might have ships carpenters (members of the carpenters association) at sea for the water transportation association or costume design (members of the Weavers Association) for the storytellers association. Those might also be specialty’s people might pursue.

[Cainesland]

With the associations expanding around the Black Sea, with the Hanseatic league like water transportation association and the growing number of the other associations, and Bostwick starting to take a step back from them what do you think should happen without his involvement?

Should they be able to take what they’ve learned, grow and develop on their own and keep going? Considering Bostwicks main role was in rules moderation and background ideas and his apprentices should be taking over for him, and he played little to no main role in the peripheral associations for the most part. Or should they start entering a period of decline? I don’t think they’ll make it far outside the black sea for the most part in the short term. It’s too intensive in supply chain management.

What do you think?

I forget, is there a grand guild council for all the associations? I would be very curious to see how rival or competing associations handle conflict resolution. It could go either way:

Grand council decisions, or mafia style inter-association violence.

There is not really a grand council of the associations. But they have the same kind of governance structure so they don’t have a hard time contacting each other if necessary. They each have a kind of patronage and gift thing going on considering they currently don’t have a currency system beyond barter. The farmers are working on a grain reserve system that might turn into a currency system though.

So if the farmers want a mill built they might contact the carpenters and brick builders and offer goods, or services such as by saying “if you build it for us you can have a discount on its use for the next year” or if they need grain transported they might say “if you transport this for us you can have 10% reduction in grain prices for your members this month” or something like that.

[UniversalCommons]

Another thought is that there might be specialty schools like the Eduba from Mesopotamia where you have a master teacher who teaches scribing for example in their house and they take 20 students for example and provide a basic education inside a few rooms in their house. You would get a classical education from a teacher. There might be a few larger institutions for specialty education as well with greater focus on things like administration or being an architect or builder.

[Speyland]

Happy Chinese New Year!

[3rdBritan]

is there enough room for another player?

[G-Tech Corporation]

is there enough room for another player?

Certainly. We have vast swathes of the earth that remain pristine.

Happy Chinese New Year!

Happy Year of the Rat! (Yes-yes)