New Civilizations ( OOC, Always Open, Reboot )

[G-Tech Corporation]

You don't exactly have the wealth of Rome.

Oh no. But further south, people get richer. The knock-on effects of trade south to the Med Basin are very important to social development in this period. Insofar as wealth is being created via export trade, that trade is flowing south to where there are more people to demand goods.

Honestly, a second war is probably inevitable at this point. The Imperium is clearly unwilling to respect the Commonwealth's internal autonomy with regards to legal and judicial matters, and the Commonwealth administration has no desire to subsume its relatively freer government for Imperial autocracy.

Something like this where the war starts with raiding action on both sides is probably as favourable as the situation is going to get for the Commonwealth, since this way Roskilde will be able to react to new Imperial weaponry (those maritime incendiaries concern me) before both sides fully mobilise for a war.

Inevitable insofar as the Commonwealth is unwilling to stop executing Imperial citizens or residents visiting her territory over matters of free speech, it would seem so. Viktor originally operated under the assumption that the Norse would be more reasonable, but at this point the Edict of Rive is more about establishing a swathe of Nordic settlements who will be uninterested in taking sides if hostilities break out, valuing person prosperity and a lack of wartime devastation over allegiance to Roskilde.

Enough to raid, then.

Oh yes. With some degree of success, I would imagine. The Commonwealth, on the other hand... I suppose she'll be taking the all sword, no shield approach?

[Plzen]

Inevitable insofar as the Commonwealth is unwilling to stop executing Imperial citizens or residents visiting her territory over matters of free speech, it would seem so.

Essentially, yeah. The Commonwealth will not - the reds least of all - tolerate an organised foreign effort to spread to the Commonwealth an ideology actively hostile to the founding principles of our polity, especially if such an effort does so by undermining the effectiveness of the Commonwealth's legitimate laws.

Viktor originally operated under the assumption that the Norse would be more reasonable, but at this point the Edict of Rive is more about establishing a swathe of Nordic settlements who will be uninterested in taking sides if hostilities break out, valuing person prosperity and a lack of wartime devastation over allegiance to Roskilde.

At some point, an unreasonable offence demands an unreasonable response. Alas, the Commonwealth is not the Scandinavia of the 21st Century, comfortable in its political system while sitting behind the iron-clad military, economic, cultural, and diplomatic domination of the world by the liberal west.

Oh yes. With some degree of success, I would imagine. The Commonwealth, on the other hand... I suppose she'll be taking the all sword, no shield approach?

The Commonwealth will not be involved in anything, although it certainly will try to defend its constituent settlements if the Imperium begins counter-raiding the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth administration intends to continue to pretend to care about its peace treaty as long as the Imperium also does so.

Repealing acts means repealing acts; it means that should the constituent polities of the Commonwealth choose to raid the Imperium, the Commonwealth will no longer be interfering in such matters.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Essentially, yeah. The Commonwealth will not - the reds least of all - tolerate an organised foreign effort to spread to the Commonwealth an ideology actively hostile to the founding principles of our polity, especially if such an effort does so by undermining the effectiveness of the Commonwealth's legitimate laws.

Ah well, then a-undermining we go. If you want to posit that the founding principles of the Commonwealth are agnosticism and secularism, I'll eat my hat, but hey, you do you. As long as such bloody-minded and easily-corruptible laws exist on the Commonwealth's books, active measures aimed at the removal of those laws will be necessary in order to promulgate a good working relationship in the North for the Imperium's citizens. Even with the measures Viktor is taking to quell war-fervor, it won't take many more months or years of executed migrants to make denying the calls for war all but impossible.

The Commonwealth will not be involved in anything, although it certainly will try to defend its constituent settlements if the Imperium begins counter-raiding the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth administration intends to continue to pretend to care about its peace treaty as long as the Imperium also does so.

Repealing acts means repealing acts; it means that should the constituent polities of the Commonwealth choose to raid the Imperium, the Commonwealth will no longer be interfering in such matters.

Hmm, yes. I suppose that does depend largely on how suicidal the various raiding groups end up feeling. Active raiding and the abrogation of enforcement will likely lead to direct conflict when Imperial assets move against the bases of raider groups, though. There, at least, the Norse will have a boon in the form of their indirect control - plausible deniability for raiding on behalf of the central government might forestall open war for a time, at least.

[Plzen]

Ah well, then a-undermining we go. If you want to posit that the founding principles of the Commonwealth are agnosticism and secularism, I'll eat my hat, but hey, you do you.

Secularism is certainly one of Clara's major values, but not exactly enforceable on the Commonwealth as a whole; after all, the Norse are pretty faithful to their sea and forest spirits. This would be more a value Clara intends to instill in the Commonwealth over the longer term, not one of its founding values.

The values that I am talking about, rather, have more to do with anthropocentrism; a belief in human ability and in human autonomy.

As long as such bloody-minded and easily-corruptible laws exist on the Commonwealth's books, active measures aimed at the removal of those laws will be necessary in order to promulgate a good working relationship in the North for the Imperium's citizens. Even with the measures Viktor is taking to quell war-fervor, it won't take many more months or years of executed migrants to make denying the calls for war all but impossible.

The Commonwealth can say the same for Viktor's autocracy. Although the Commonwealth's administration has a solid advantage in terms of quelling the belligerence of its representatives, which is that the Commonwealth has no reasonable hopes of making Viktor go away by force, which would make the point of any aggressive war quite moot.

Hmm, yes. I suppose that does depend largely on how suicidal the various raiding groups end up feeling. Active raiding and the abrogation of enforcement will likely lead to direct conflict when Imperial assets move against the bases of raider groups, though. There, at least, the Norse will have a boon in the form of their indirect control - plausible deniability for raiding on behalf of the central government might forestall open war for a time, at least.

Not as long as you might think; the Commonwealth will have to act in its constituent settlements' defence if the Imperial legions start counter-raiding Commonwealth settlements, and once National Guard regular troops lock swords with Imperial legionnaire regular troops, that's going to lead to open war very, very quickly.

The sitting administration knows that permitting constituent polity raids on the Imperium is de facto starting a war; the reason it will be working through this whole plausibly-deniable situation is because the less doubt is cast on the narrative that the Imperium is the aggressive belligerent and the Commonwealth the aggrieved one, the easier time it will have in managing the homefront.

[Bortslovakia]

This song by Roy Orbison gives the type of feeling I imagine one might get from one of Crimeas Storytellers Conferences. The feels almost feels like it could be in a carnival.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FvqdEopJ2SI

I always got a PAX Unplugged feel from it (focus on low tech things primarily, which fits for 3000 BCE), so the fact that you chose this song makes me immensely happy.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Secularism is certainly one of Clara's major values, but not exactly enforceable on the Commonwealth as a whole; after all, the Norse are pretty faithful to their sea and forest spirits. This would be more a value Clara intends to instill in the Commonwealth over the longer term, not one of its founding values.

The values that I am talking about, rather, have more to do with anthropocentrism; a belief in human ability and in human autonomy.

Nothing of which, of course, has any disagreement in Imperial Christianity - further underlining how the execution of Imperial citizens in the Commonwealth is being done on purely political grounds out of both envy and vindictiveness, and how such a law cannot be accepted as a matter of course by the Imperium herself, being a polity devoted to law and order and not the brigandry and corruption the Commonwealth promulgates.

Not as long as you might think; the Commonwealth will have to act in its constituent settlements' defence if the Imperial legions start counter-raiding Commonwealth settlements, and once National Guard regular troops lock swords with Imperial legionnaire regular troops, that's going to lead to open war very, very quickly.

The sitting administration knows that permitting constituent polity raids on the Imperium is de facto starting a war; the reason it will be working through this whole plausibly-deniable situation is because the less doubt is cast on the narrative that the Imperium is the aggressive belligerent and the Commonwealth the aggrieved one, the easier time it will have in managing the homefront.

I wouldn't exactly say counter-raiding - unless you consider the destruction of ships and the arrest of suspected raiders for trial in the jurisdiction of their crimes raiding. I doubt there will be any land battles of note, not unless the Commonwealth's average polity has static fortifications that would beggar belief in their complexity.

[Plzen]

I wouldn't exactly say counter-raiding - unless you consider the destruction of ships and the arrest of suspected raiders for trial in the jurisdiction of their crimes raiding. I doubt there will be any land battles of note, not unless the Commonwealth's average polity has static fortifications that would beggar belief in their complexity.

Well, yes, the Imperium coming over to the Commonwealth to destroy the property and abduct the residents of the constituent polities of the Commonwealth would definitely be considered raiding. Said constituent settlements would reasonably expect the Commonwealth administration to do something about that.

Since the Imperium has no extradition treaty with the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth position will be that Commonwealth citizens on Commonwealth soil cannot be compelled to answer for any crimes they may have committed in Imperial territory at some point in the past.

---

Nothing of which, of course, has any disagreement in Imperial Christianity

Since Imperial Christianity uses more-or-less the same scripture that real-life Christianity does, I'll disagree quite strongly on this front. I don't think that the modern version of Christianity, where adherents live essentially secular lives by ignoring or creatively reinterpreting any Christian doctrine that doesn't align with industrial-era values, can exist without the social conditions of the industrial and post-industrial era.

[Ralnis]

My post is nearly done. Luther will leave Sumer for Northern Europe so beware the European Trade Company.

[Bortslovakia]

You know, with all the shit surrounding Orkney, I imagine the paper trade has kind of dipped off between the Commonwealth and Hibernia. I fully accept calfskin as a stylish substitute.

I'll probably hold off a response to the letter until after Fort Defiance is handled. I don't want to jump too far ahead.

[G-Tech Corporation]

You know, with all the shit surrounding Orkney, I imagine the paper trade has kind of dipped off between the Commonwealth and Hibernia. I fully accept calfskin as a stylish substitute.

I'll probably hold off a response to the letter until after Fort Defiance is handled. I don't want to jump too far ahead.

Honestly, I just thought it would be a good way to distinguish the letters, and a fun thing to write about. Plus, yknow, Irish cattle.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Since the Imperium has no extradition treaty with the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth position will be that Commonwealth citizens on Commonwealth soil cannot be compelled to answer for any crimes they may have committed in Imperial territory at some point in the past.

Interesting standpoint. So, in essence, it completely disavows the former precept of the rule of law being bound to territory?

Since Imperial Christianity uses more-or-less the same scripture that real-life Christianity does, I'll disagree quite strongly on this front. I don't think that the modern version of Christianity, where adherents live essentially secular lives by ignoring or creatively reinterpreting any Christian doctrine that doesn't align with industrial-era values, can exist without the social conditions of the industrial and post-industrial era.

Which will make me question your comprehension of early Christianity. Christians were thought of as extremely humanistic and grounded in the physical world by the societies around them, and even persecuted for their 'atheistic' approach to the separation of secular governance and religious life. If anything, the local Norse pagans will have a far less humanistic approach to religion than any Imperial Christians - seeing religious duties as a necessary part of governance - reinforcing the hypocrisy of the Act.

[Plzen]

You know, with all the shit surrounding Orkney, I imagine the paper trade has kind of dipped off between the Commonwealth and Hibernia.

I... actually don't think it would have. The Northern Isles situation has not (yet!) developed into any kind of military confrontation. The official position from the Commonwealth side (and I imagine this is also true for the Hibernians) that it is still negotiating for a peaceful and mutually favourable resolution to this territorial dispute. While private thoughts of leaders are private thoughts of leaders, the position of the Commonwealth as an institution is that it still considers Hibernia as essentially a friendly state.

Considering the Commonwealth trades with the Imperium, why would it block trade with Hibernia?

[Plzen]

Interesting standpoint. So, in essence, it completely disavows the former precept of the rule of law being bound to territory?

The Commonwealth acknowledges that these people may have committed a crime and, if they have, then that their actions are unjustified and illegitimate. The Commonwealth also reaffirms the Imperium's authority in enforcing Imperial law in Imperial territory, by whatever procedure and institution it sees fit.

Seeing as the people involved are not in Imperial territory, however, and that the Imperium is quite explicitly forbidden from deploying its armed forces into Commonwealth territory...

If the Imperium cannot enforce its own law in its own borders and needs to invade neighbouring states to do it, the Commonwealth doesn’t see how it is at fault for that unfortunate situation.

I'll respond to your second point in a few hours because right now I have an appointment to get to.

[Bortslovakia]

You know, with all the shit surrounding Orkney, I imagine the paper trade has kind of dipped off between the Commonwealth and Hibernia. I fully accept calfskin as a stylish substitute.

I'll probably hold off a response to the letter until after Fort Defiance is handled. I don't want to jump too far ahead.

Honestly, I just thought it would be a good way to distinguish the letters, and a fun thing to write about. Plus, yknow, Irish cattle.

Mooo!

I... actually don't think it would have. The Northern Isles situation has not (yet!) developed into any kind of military confrontation. The official position from the Commonwealth side (and I imagine this is also true for the Hibernians) that it is still negotiating for a peaceful and mutually favourable resolution to this territorial dispute. While private thoughts of leaders are private thoughts of leaders, the position of the Commonwealth as an institution is that it still considers Hibernia as essentially a friendly state.

Considering the Commonwealth trades with the Imperium, why would it block trade with Hibernia?

Nothing hides from the economy for long. Wouldn't be surprised if Commonwealth and Hibernian merchants started mutually agreeing to consolidate their business assets in their respective countries while they could. War on average isn't great for business, and by stockpiling their goods while things are uncertain, they can sell it off at a marked up price should all trade cease.

Uncertainty=Bad

[Alaroma]

Sup everyone, saying hi from Argentina.

[Plzen]

Nothing hides from the economy for long. Wouldn't be surprised if Commonwealth and Hibernian merchants started mutually agreeing to consolidate their business assets in their respective countries while they could. War on average isn't great for business, and by stockpiling their goods while things are uncertain, they can sell it off at a marked up price should all trade cease.

Uncertainty=Bad

True, true. I suppose the war might not have begun, but the market fluctuations for it probably would have.

Honestly this is just going to be a really awkward war on both sides. We’ve discussed officers debating social science over the post during the war before, and I think that’s just a perfect encapsulation of what kind of war this is going to be.

In a Northwestern European diplomatic scene of heated ideological conflict, where radically differing visions of what the world ought to look like clash, here we have two essentially identical states, going to war over... territorial disputes.

Ah humanity never change.

[Bortslovakia]

Sup everyone, saying hi from Argentina.

Hi from not Argentina! How are things?

Nothing hides from the economy for long. Wouldn't be surprised if Commonwealth and Hibernian merchants started mutually agreeing to consolidate their business assets in their respective countries while they could. War on average isn't great for business, and by stockpiling their goods while things are uncertain, they can sell it off at a marked up price should all trade cease.

Uncertainty=Bad

True, true. I suppose the war might not have begun, but the market fluctuations for it probably would have.

Honestly this is just going to be a really awkward war on both sides. We’ve discussed officers debating social science over the post during the war before, and I think that’s just a perfect encapsulation of what kind of war this is going to be.

In a Northwestern European diplomatic scene of heated ideological conflict, where radically differing visions of what the world ought to look like clash, here we have two essentially identical states, going to war over... territorial disputes.

Ah humanity never change.

Or at least as close as you can get to identical in a world of mad prophets, bloodthirsty warlords, and Sigmar cosplayers.

[Plzen]

Or at least as close as you can get to identical in a world of mad prophets, bloodthirsty warlords, and Sigmar cosplayers.

The Commonwealth will certainly make a great deal of fuss over the Hibernians being ruled over by yet another king. A dime a dozen, autocrats are. Not to mention that the Commonwealth is a much more modern (in the Weberian sense) state than Hibernians: one either lives by proper regulations and procedure, or by barbarian impromptu moralising.

But yes. In a world of mad prophets, bloodthirsty warlords, and Sigmar cosplayers, two basically identical states. It’s terribly unfortunate our territorial claims overlap, not just in the Northern Isles, but (in the very long run) with regards to the world beyond...

[Ralnis]

Cosplayer? Luther is trying to be a rich fatcat in one of the youngest states in the world as of right now.

[Alaroma]

Sup everyone, saying hi from Argentina.

Hi from not Argentina! How are things?

True, true. I suppose the war might not have begun, but the market fluctuations for it probably would have.

Honestly this is just going to be a really awkward war on both sides. We’ve discussed officers debating social science over the post during the war before, and I think that’s just a perfect encapsulation of what kind of war this is going to be.

In a Northwestern European diplomatic scene of heated ideological conflict, where radically differing visions of what the world ought to look like clash, here we have two essentially identical states, going to war over... territorial disputes.

Ah humanity never change.

Or at least as close as you can get to identical in a world of mad prophets, bloodthirsty warlords, and Sigmar cosplayers.

Epic my dude, I love the capital, and am really Vibing rn.

Also bruh Andrew is not a mad prophet! He gives only the most factual conclusions!

[Bortslovakia]

Or at least as close as you can get to identical in a world of mad prophets, bloodthirsty warlords, and Sigmar cosplayers.

The Commonwealth will certainly make a great deal of fuss over the Hibernians being ruled over by yet another king. A dime a dozen, autocrats are. Not to mention that the Commonwealth is a much more modern (in the Weberian sense) state than Hibernians: one either lives by proper regulations and procedure, or by barbarian impromptu moralising.

But yes. In a world of mad prophets, bloodthirsty warlords, and Sigmar cosplayers, two basically identical states. It’s terribly unfortunate our territorial claims overlap, not just in the Northern Isles, but (in the very long run) with regards to the world beyond...

I mean, it's probably pretty obvious that this isn't the case in Ireland. You'd have to be willfully ignorant to not see the move towards a representative government. And we're quite fond of bureaucracy and legalistic traditions, thank ye very much! They're just WIP.......

Anyways, I for one support a Norse-Irish Coprosperity Sphere, but noooooooo. You just had to go and take my rocks!

[Plzen]

Sure, sure... “work in progress...” kind of like how all those tinpot dictators are always preparing for a “return to democracy...”

The Commonwealth will believe it when it sees it.

Anyways, I for one support a Norse-Irish Coprosperity Sphere, but noooooooo. You just had to go and take my rocks!

...I spent many of my childhood years in Thailand and South Korea. Could you have possibly found a worse way to express that sentiment?

Also, you mean I’m holding on to my own rocks, surely.

[Bortslovakia]

Sure, sure... “work in progress...” kind of like how all those tinpot dictators are always preparing for a “return to democracy...”

The Commonwealth will believe it when it sees it.

Anyways, I for one support a Norse-Irish Coprosperity Sphere, but noooooooo. You just had to go and take my rocks!

...I spent many of my childhood years in Thailand and South Korea. Could you have possibly found a worse way to express that sentiment?

Also, you mean I’m holding on to my own rocks, surely.

The sentiment was not designed to be sentimental... so much as a jab at the Commonwealths militant nationalism and vesting of unilateral power into a single agency. I apologize if I overstepped.

...They're still my rocks though

[Cainesland]

One thing that I am considering doing, going with G-techs recommendation that the state creation conference shouldn’t be successful in producing a state, is after having a trade and customs union form, have a period of change approach. This period will probably involve stepping down from some or half of the associations, and taking on new responsibilities as developer of the tribes formal education system.

This might be the plan for the next 5 or so years:
- Stepping down from some of the associations board leadership (such as the carpenters, storytellers, farmers and ranchers) and transitioning the new leaders into their roles, and showing peaceful transfer of power. Although peaceful transfer of power has been for awhile now, as members have come and gone with regional ekections, but Bostwick has usually always been around on the higher levels as a founding member).

- Developing the tribes educational system.

- Helping his kids find apprenticeships as they turn 14, and jobs when they graduate.

- Prepare the foundations for founding two new organizations when his kids leave home, the Hudson’s bay company based out of the Don river, and the Northern Plains company based out of the Dneipr River.

[G-Tech Corporation]

One thing that I am considering doing, going with G-techs recommendation that the state creation conference shouldn’t be successful in producing a state, is after having a trade and customs union form, have a period of change approach. This period will probably involve stepping down from some or half of the associations, and taking on new responsibilities as developer of the tribes formal education system.

This might be the plan for the next 5 or so years:
- Stepping down from some of the associations board leadership (such as the carpenters, storytellers, farmers and ranchers) and transitioning the new leaders into their roles, and showing peaceful transfer of power. Although peaceful transfer of power has been for awhile now, as members have come and gone with regional ekections, but Bostwick has usually always been around on the higher levels as a founding member).

- Developing the tribes educational system.

- Helping his kids find apprenticeships as they turn 14, and jobs when they graduate.

- Prepare the foundations for founding two new organizations when his kids leave home, the Hudson’s bay company based out of the Don river, and the Northern Plains company based out of the Dneipr River.

To be clear, since the point that Joohan and I have made still doesn’t appear to have sunk in; I don’t see any problem with a state composed of eight tribal kindreds. That’s the sort of logical level of political organization, based on personal charisma and relationships with leadership, that warlords and ambitious chieftains have forged ten thousand times throughout history.

The trouble comes from the fact that you seem to have a wholly outsize idea of what that means.

A tribal kindred is not a supra-ethnic body that commands the alliegance of two thousand families. That’s the province of much more complicated social orders like confederations and city-states, not the year 3000 BCE. A state level organization, built on collective governance, emerging ex associo to govern tens of thousands of individuals, is not a phenomenon I am familiar with historically; nor one Joohan and I feel comfortable handwaving.

Let me put it this way.

The coalescence of a thousand individuals (or less) in a confined geographic region of a nascent urban center or a short travel time into a more cohesive state is entirely possible. That’s a tribal confederation. You seem to be positing, on the other hand, the equivalent of this - eight modern national leaders get together and agree to a customs union. This is a logical process, and possible. However, at the end of the conference, they declare a one world government including every other member of the 200 or so countries upon Earth. This is, shall we say? Less plausible.

As such, if you want to portray a proto-state forming out of eight tribes, I absolutely approve of that measure. Hell, in my own story, Viktor got his start by courting backing from six powerful tribes and their peripheral clans. But, importantly, in Viktor’s case he had to deal with that many stakeholders within a single settlement of ~1000 people.

The trouble comes when you posit that those eight tribes actually compose most of the Crimea, in which case Joohan and I have to make a big ‘hol up’ on plausibility.