New Civilizations ( OOC, Always Open, Reboot )

[New Arcadius]

The Nile would be one of the goals of Gaukhar now, since the holy site of the Isis Temple is there, and needs to be claimed and built upon.

I mean I did put in her post that she is trying to study how she can try to invade the area. Or try other methods to gain the area.

Moving down to Axum might be a waste of time, since it's too far away.

I don't think any temple towards Isis would have existed by this time. There isn't even any proof that she was a major deity until about halfway through the old kingdom, which isn't for another several centuries. You're likely the first people to actually use the name Isis

I mean, we are the first to really worship and used the name of her. So.

And I didn't said there was a temple there. Gaukhar refers to it as a holy site and wants to build a temple there.

[Plzen]

You know, this RP has assumed that people in the Neolithic/Bronze Age are as competent as contemporary humans in any mental task except those that require knowledge, but I’ve just heard a fascinating lecture about how that might not have been true in real history.

Certain ways of thinking, the lecture argues, simply were not useful in most of human history, and so most people outside the upper class never developed them. Among these are the ability to ignore details and build simplified models of the world, to analyse hypothetical situations as if they were plausible, or to apply logical reasoning on abstract concepts.

These abilities were not widespread in the general population until the 20th Century. This is why, it is argued, each new generation of humans have done much better than the previous generation in IQ tests since IQ tests were invented.

If this lecturer is right, then the Commonwealth and its rational-bureaucratic principles would likely never have gotten off the ground amidst the primitive minds of prehistoric Scandinavia.

Interesting to think about.

[UniversalCommons]

You know, this RP has assumed that people in the Neolithic/Bronze Age are as competent as contemporary humans in any mental task except those that require knowledge, but I’ve just heard a fascinating lecture about how that might not be really true.

Certain ways of thinking, the lecture argues, simply were not useful in most of human history, and so most people outside the upper class never developed them. Among these are the ability to ignore details and build simplified models of the world, to analyse hypothetical situations as if they were plausible, or to apply logical reasoning on abstract concepts.

If this lecturer is right, then the Commonwealth and its rational-bureaucratic principles would likely never have gotten off the ground amidst the primitive minds of prehistoric Scandinavia.

Interesting to think about.

Actually hunter gatherers had larger brain size because they did not specialize and had to use everything in their environment. We have lost about 150 cubic centimeters in volume by becoming sedentary farmers. It requires less general knowledge and awareness of the environment to be a specialist or sedentary human.

Our neolithic ancestors were both tougher physically in some ways and smarter in the general sense.

[Bortslovakia]

You know, this RP has assumed that people in the Neolithic/Bronze Age are as competent as contemporary humans in any mental task except those that require knowledge, but I’ve just heard a fascinating lecture about how that might not be really true.

Certain ways of thinking, the lecture argues, simply were not useful in most of human history, and so most people outside the upper class never developed them. Among these are the ability to ignore details and build simplified models of the world, to analyse hypothetical situations as if they were plausible, or to apply logical reasoning on abstract concepts.

If this lecturer is right, then the Commonwealth and its rational-bureaucratic principles would likely never have gotten off the ground amidst the primitive minds of prehistoric Scandinavia.

Interesting to think about.

Actually hunter gatherers had larger brain size because they did not specialize and had to use everything in their environment. We have lost about 150 cubic centimeters in volume by becoming sedentary farmers. It requires less general knowledge and awareness of the environment to be a specialist or sedentary human.

Our neolithic ancestors were both tougher physically in some ways and smarter in the general sense.

Insert standard argument about how brain size does not inherently impact intelligence here

I accept the premise that hunter gatherers were more knowledgable than modern humans in certain fields, but your conclusion is a logical leap.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Actually hunter gatherers had larger brain size because they did not specialize and had to use everything in their environment. We have lost about 150 cubic centimeters in volume by becoming sedentary farmers. It requires less general knowledge and awareness of the environment to be a specialist or sedentary human.

Our neolithic ancestors were both tougher physically in some ways and smarter in the general sense.

Insert standard argument about how brain size does not inherently impact intelligence here

I accept the premise that hunter gatherers were more knowledgable than modern humans in certain fields, but your conclusion is a logical leap.

I think it mainly has to do with superstition and a lack of understanding of the world around. I mean, with our technology and wisdom of the modern era, we react to previous eras and point out errors in their logic and understanding, but that mainly because we have been gifted with hindsight.

[Plzen]

I think it mainly has to do with superstition and a lack of understanding of the world around. I mean, with our technology and wisdom of the modern era, we react to previous eras and point out errors in their logic and understanding, but that mainly because we have been gifted with hindsight.

The point that the speaker was making, which I have tried to convey, is not that people in the past were less able to understand than we are in our contemporary world. The point I was trying to make is that the mental abilities that they possessed corresponded to the mental abilities that their lives demanded, which is quite unlike the mental abilities you need to survive in a 21st Century developed-world democracy.

To bring up an example used by the speaker, it is of considerable importance to a pre-industrial rural peasant that a hunting dog can catch a rabbit and not at all important to see that they're both living things that move and are therefore animals, but if you went to a late 20th or early 21st Century high school with a mind unable to answer basic categorisation questions like "what word describes both dogs and rabbits" you would not have done very well.

Just like a muscle, a particular way of thinking develops if practiced and atrophies if not. Our ancestors' way of looking at the world, the speaker hypothesises, is not inferior to our own except in the particular context of our times. They understood the world differently, not poorly.

[Bortslovakia]

I think it mainly has to do with superstition and a lack of understanding of the world around. I mean, with our technology and wisdom of the modern era, we react to previous eras and point out errors in their logic and understanding, but that mainly because we have been gifted with hindsight.

The point that the speaker was making, which I have tried to convey, is not that people in the past were less able to understand than we are in our contemporary world. The point I was trying to make is that the mental abilities that they possessed corresponded to the mental abilities that their lives demanded, which is quite unlike the mental abilities you need to survive in a 21st Century developed-world democracy.

To bring up an example used by the speaker, it is of considerable importance to a pre-industrial rural peasant that a hunting dog can catch a rabbit and not at all important to see that they're both living things that move and are therefore animals, but if you went to a late 20th or early 21st Century high school with a mind unable to answer basic categorisation questions like "what word describes both dogs and rabbits" you would not have done very well.

Just like a muscle, a particular way of thinking develops if practiced and atrophies if not. Our ancestors' way of looking at the world, the speaker hypothesises, is not inferior to our own except in the particular context of our times. They understood the world differently, not poorly.

Precisely what I was going for. People required different skills to survive, and as such were... different. That doesn't mean they were any more or less intelligent, though malnutrition obviously plays a factor.

[Alaroma]

>still waiting for conference

God am I really being forced to explore Iris as a character? You bastards............

That and some other little things.

[Joohan]

You know, this RP has assumed that people in the Neolithic/Bronze Age are as competent as contemporary humans in any mental task except those that require knowledge, but I’ve just heard a fascinating lecture about how that might not have been true in real history.

Certain ways of thinking, the lecture argues, simply were not useful in most of human history, and so most people outside the upper class never developed them. Among these are the ability to ignore details and build simplified models of the world, to analyse hypothetical situations as if they were plausible, or to apply logical reasoning on abstract concepts.

These abilities were not widespread in the general population until the 20th Century. This is why, it is argued, each new generation of humans have done much better than the previous generation in IQ tests since IQ tests were invented.

If this lecturer is right, then the Commonwealth and its rational-bureaucratic principles would likely never have gotten off the ground amidst the primitive minds of prehistoric Scandinavia.

Interesting to think about.

All yall tryn'a build civilization on some counterfeit version of the enlightenment.

Me, an * intellectual *, realizing these are simple people and trying to build a system that reflects a civilization more conducive to their world thinking... and rodeo

[Joohan]

Anybody thought into specialization yet for their civilization? Just like, as an example, most nations have some kind of scientific or technical field they are really known for and quite domineering in.

Scotland had medicine, America has consumer goods, Japan/ Korea have computers, Germany has engineering and chemistry, the Russians have physics, etc.

I was thinking about having Icedonia specialize in the fields of medicine/psychiatry, as well as mathematics. I actually have a fairly good idea about how I want to pursue psychiatry ICly. PTSD is going to be an exceptionally prevalent problem within our society, and Issac ( having very personal experience with the matter ) will be going hard to help those suffering - laying the foundations for a kind of medical revolution to be had in the Virtuous Land for centuries to come.

Mathematics I have a pretty good IC and OOC reason for doing. OOC, it's just a fantastic stepping stone to start delving into every other scientific field - which will be needed to thwart any humanitarian missions that should threaten civilization in the future...

[Bortslovakia]

Anybody thought into specialization yet for their civilization? Just like, as an example, most nations have some kind of scientific or technical field they are really known for and quite domineering in.

Scotland had medicine, America has consumer goods, Japan/ Korea have computers, Germany has engineering and chemistry, the Russians have physics, etc.

I was thinking about having Icedonia specialize in the fields of medicine/psychiatry, as well as mathematics. I actually have a fairly good idea about how I want to pursue psychiatry ICly. PTSD is going to be an exceptionally prevalent problem within our society, and Issac ( having very personal experience with the matter ) will be going hard to help those suffering - laying the foundations for a kind of medical revolution to be had in the Virtuous Land for centuries to come.

Mathematics I have a pretty good IC and OOC reason for doing. OOC, it's just a fantastic stepping stone to start delving into every other scientific field - which will be needed to thwart any humanitarian missions that should threaten civilization in the future...

Well Ireland and the Commonwealth already have strong maritime traditions and industries. I can see the two becoming centers of political and philosophical thought. Of course Ireland would be more in the vein of Viennese coffee houses than the Commonwealth's ETERNAL REVOLUTION!!!

In the long run, I'd say physics and industrial sciences would be quite prominent in Hibernia. More as a result of trying to keep up with the Imperium's early production advantage than because I as a person find the subject particularly interesting.

[Joohan]

Anybody thought into specialization yet for their civilization? Just like, as an example, most nations have some kind of scientific or technical field they are really known for and quite domineering in.

Scotland had medicine, America has consumer goods, Japan/ Korea have computers, Germany has engineering and chemistry, the Russians have physics, etc.

I was thinking about having Icedonia specialize in the fields of medicine/psychiatry, as well as mathematics. I actually have a fairly good idea about how I want to pursue psychiatry ICly. PTSD is going to be an exceptionally prevalent problem within our society, and Issac ( having very personal experience with the matter ) will be going hard to help those suffering - laying the foundations for a kind of medical revolution to be had in the Virtuous Land for centuries to come.

Mathematics I have a pretty good IC and OOC reason for doing. OOC, it's just a fantastic stepping stone to start delving into every other scientific field - which will be needed to thwart any humanitarian missions that should threaten civilization in the future...

Well Ireland and the Commonwealth already have strong maritime traditions and industries. I can see the two becoming centers of political and philosophical thought. Of course Ireland would be more in the vein of Viennese coffee houses than the Commonwealth's ETERNAL REVOLUTION!!!

In the long run, I'd say physics and industrial sciences would be quite prominent in Hibernia. More as a result of trying to keep up with the Imperium's early production advantage than because I as a person find the subject particularly interesting.

Industrial science is pretty vague. A sweat shop making nike products and a software manufacturer are both technically in the same vein of industrial sciences.

[UniversalCommons]

It is more than nutrition. You need people to live a productive life, get them to live until they are over 50 as productive human beings.

[Joohan]

It is more than nutrition. You need people to live a productive life, get them to live until they are over 50 as productive human beings.

People are living productive lives, what even is an unproductive life? I guess you could call modern day NEET's unproductive, but that doesn't exist anywhere in the world right now.

[Cainesland]

Two things that Crimea seems to have done well in are organizing and entertaining.

[Plzen]

Well Ireland and the Commonwealth already have strong maritime traditions and industries. I can see the two becoming centers of political and philosophical thought. Of course Ireland would be more in the vein of Viennese coffee houses than the Commonwealth's ETERNAL REVOLUTION!!!

Agreed. Seafaring and social science.

[Bortslovakia]

Well Ireland and the Commonwealth already have strong maritime traditions and industries. I can see the two becoming centers of political and philosophical thought. Of course Ireland would be more in the vein of Viennese coffee houses than the Commonwealth's ETERNAL REVOLUTION!!!

In the long run, I'd say physics and industrial sciences would be quite prominent in Hibernia. More as a result of trying to keep up with the Imperium's early production advantage than because I as a person find the subject particularly interesting.

Industrial science is pretty vague. A sweat shop making nike products and a software manufacturer are both technically in the same vein of industrial sciences.

I could say the same about "mathematics" as a field

[Joohan]

Industrial science is pretty vague. A sweat shop making nike products and a software manufacturer are both technically in the same vein of industrial sciences.

I could say the same about "mathematics" as a field

What ever let's me build atom bombs

[Plzen]

What ever let's me build atom bombs

You mean "lets" as opposed to "let's," right? I just finished trawling through two Wikipedia articles on the differences between Commonwealth and American English so I'm very sensitive to spelling right now.

In any case, as I've said before (not sure if I said it in the OOC thread or the IC one, but I definitely said it somewhere...), half the work of making something is knowing that it can be done. Since we already know how atomic bombs work and the broad outlines of how to make one, I suspect that there will be a nuclear race on as soon as we acquire the barest industrial capability needed to make some. Quite possibly at an otherwise 1910s-1920s technology level. Not to mention, by the time we get to that era...

Be buried in our industrial-age soft power. Jordens arbetare, kamp tillsammans! Who needs an army when you can turn your enemies' against them?

[Joohan]

What ever let's me build atom bombs

You mean "lets" as opposed to "let's," right? I just finished trawling through two Wikipedia articles on the differences between Commonwealth and American English so I'm very sensitive to spelling right now.

In any case, as I've said before (not sure if I said it in the OOC thread or the IC one, but I definitely said it somewhere...), half the work of making something is knowing that it can be done. Since we already know how atomic bombs work and the broad outlines of how to make one, I suspect that there will be a nuclear race on as soon as we acquire the barest industrial capability needed to make some. Quite possibly at an otherwise 1910s-1920s technology level. Not to mention, by the time we get to that era...

Be buried in our industrial-age soft power. Jordens arbetare, kamp tillsammans! Who needs an army when you can turn your enemies' against them?

I don't see it happening for centuries. What we often don't consider is that the things that we want to introduce don't just require we first invent one or two technologies - but we must invent entire societies for an invention to occur. Take the atom bomb for example. Just to even begin comprehending the math and science which go into building an atomic bomb, we will pretty much have to reinvent the very foundations of math and science entirely from scratch - and wait till the point were scientists and mathematicians are able to devise methods of calculating quantum and nuclear physics. I think the most advanced thing any of us has introduced is extremely basic geometry. Just imagine the centuries it will take to rediscover the 5,000 years of knowledge that led up to the creating of the atomic bomb.

[Plzen]

I don't see it happening for centuries. What we often don't consider is that the things that we want to introduce don't just require we first invent one or two technologies - but we must invent entire societies for an invention to occur.

Oh, certainly, which is why I said a 1910s or 1920s base level of industry, which isn't that far behind the Manhattan Project IRL. Assuming that we're starting from, oh, a 1200s baseline with all of our author knowledge and assuming that author foresight makes up for the lack of internal progress resulting from a lack of population, that would be 700 years or so.

Of course, after that much time more than one author might be insane, which would complicate things somewhat.

Take the atom bomb for example. Just to even begin comprehending the math and science which go into building an atomic bomb, we will pretty much have to reinvent the very foundations of math and science entirely from scratch - and wait till the point were scientists and mathematicians are able to devise methods of calculating quantum and nuclear physics.

Not really. We, the authors, know much of the science, and don't need to be able to replicate the steps of scientific inquiry and reasoning that led to the discovery of that science. What we need is the necessary engineering genius required to put our science into action, and while that in itself is challenging it's not as challenging as rediscovering nuclear physics from scratch.

I think the most advanced thing any of us has introduced is extremely basic geometry.

Calculus! It's so fundamental to so much of the natural sciences and engineering, why not teach it?

---

When it comes to specialisation it's also interesting to see the self-images that we're developing for each of our civilisations. The Northern Commonwealth believes itself a beacon of freedom in an authoritarian world. The Imperium believes itself the light of civilisation against its barbarian neighbours. Icedonia seems to believe that it is a bedrock of order and stability against the chaos all around it. Hibernia... I'm not really sure. They don't really seem to be particularly nationalistic?

[Plzen]

Well Ireland and the Commonwealth already have strong maritime traditions and industries. I can see the two becoming centers of political and philosophical thought. Of course Ireland would be more in the vein of Viennese coffee houses than the Commonwealth's ETERNAL REVOLUTION!!!

The Bureau of Catchphrase Standardisation under the Department of Information has decreed that the more free term is "Permanent Revolution," not this counterrevolutionary so-called "eternal revolution" that you speak of.

Your traitorous mangling of a patriotic slogan is an insulting affront to all right-thinking Commonwealth citizens everywhere. Your subversive activities have been reported to the Committee of Public Safety. Please remain in your place of residence and await your state-sanctioned relocation to the Arctic Joy and Happiness Camp.

[UniversalCommons]

Sure

Never mind, stupid idea. Just stick to water power till steel becomes a thing. Then steam power.

One thing which would help would be water powered bellows and hammers (an improvement in iron production). Also water power for textiles, paper, and printing.

[Speyland]

I've been watching too much anime lately. Also, I've been writing my book (or script). XD

[Holy Tedalonia]

That moment when you have been stuck to England (doing nothing) so long that you'd prefer to be stationed on the border of the northern commies...