New Civilizations ( OOC, Always Open, Reboot )

[Joohan]

Land may not be valuable, but the things that grow on the land, the plants, the animals, the rocks are valuable if you believe in that kind of thing. If you follow a stewardship ethic, the value is in preserving those things on the land and keeping their value. You can further say with this kind of ethic, there are no externalities, and water, deer, and the services provided by nature are all valuable as well. Thus every inch of land has value as a resource to be preserved for human purposes. Part of the process of preserving is creating value for people through hunting, hiking, boating, fishing, farming, gardening and other activities attached to the land. When people cease valuing the land they live on, they overgraze, destroy, and desertify the world around them. Unfortunately, this is a natural human tendency, because human beings go everywhere and try to make themselves comfortable with little thought to the processes they are using in farming or mining or logging and other things. Thus care in using resources (careful use of resources), production of high quality durable goods, recycling, limiting the production of garbage, craftsmanship that respects the use of materials, and efficiency (very lean manufacturing) in use of resources is absolutely necessary.

None of this is applicable to the current everyman farmer who is just looking to grow enough to eat in a vastly wild and untamed world.

[Holy Tedalonia]

The roman empire citizens weren't made up of solely romans,

Empire, sure - but none of us are at that level yet. Most of us are at early republic or even kingdom stage of Rome. Limited and homogeneous citizenry. The commonwealth is diverse but... there system is unstable. The Imperium is diverse and should be either unstable or tyrannical ( but G doesn't want to write any faults in his system soo.. ).

Not really, a good half of roman republican history is incorporating the Latin, Etruscan, and Greek tribes in Italy. Italy had some quite unique tribes, hell a large portion was Etruscan, a very different society from the traditional Romans. Throughout the majority of Romes entire history it republic or empire. It has had to deal with a large none roman population, and was forced to make systems to effectively convert those in into its culture.

As for incentive, aspiring farmers were always intrigued with the prospect of land, a thing the roman military would offer for campaigns. Land was a highly value commodity in Rome, especially since the aristocracy had begun to own most of it in Italy in the later days of the Roman Republic.

Exactly my point. Land isn't a valuable commodity right now. The world, even core territories, are still very underdeveloped with limited population pretty much everywhere. Land in Rome was expensive and hard to come by specifically because there were so many people around vying for it. That isn't an issue for us though - we have far more land than we have people to work it actually! There is literally no incentive to move hundreds of miles away then, away from all your loved ones, to an unknown and possibly dangerous colony. The only people for whom this rule would be an exception for would be specialists, and as i've stated before, there aren't too many of those in the world right now.

Which is why I simplified the statement to romanticism and incentive. Since land isn't the big of a deal right now, you gotta offer something else in value. Land was how the romans did it, but who's to say that the current governments cant offer something else? Perhaps high valued tools to increase farmer production that are to expensive for farmers to get, but the state could easily provide, or for Cainesland Corporate society, a "license" to "patented" farming techniques?

[Joohan]

Empire, sure - but none of us are at that level yet. Most of us are at early republic or even kingdom stage of Rome. Limited and homogeneous citizenry. The commonwealth is diverse but... there system is unstable. The Imperium is diverse and should be either unstable or tyrannical ( but G doesn't want to write any faults in his system soo.. ).

Not really, a good half of roman republican history is incorporating the Latin, Etruscan, and Greek tribes in Italy. Italy had some quite unique tribes, hell a large portion was Etruscan, a very different society from the traditional Romans. Throughout the majority of Romes entire history it republic or empire. It has had to deal with a large none roman population, and was forced to make systems to effectively convert those in into its culture.

That's why I said early republic...

As for incentive, aspiring farmers were always intrigued with the prospect of land, a thing the roman military would offer for campaigns. Land was a highly value commodity in Rome, especially since the aristocracy had begun to own most of it in Italy in the later days of the Roman Republic.

Exactly my point. Land isn't a valuable commodity right now. The world, even core territories, are still very underdeveloped with limited population pretty much everywhere. Land in Rome was expensive and hard to come by specifically because there were so many people around vying for it. That isn't an issue for us though - we have far more land than we have people to work it actually! There is literally no incentive to move hundreds of miles away then, away from all your loved ones, to an unknown and possibly dangerous colony. The only people for whom this rule would be an exception for would be specialists, and as i've stated before, there aren't too many of those in the world right now.

Which is why I simplified the statement to romanticism and incentive. Since land isn't the big of a deal right now, you gotta offer something else in value. Land was how the romans did it, but who's to say that the current governments cant offer something else? Perhaps high valued tools to increase farmer production that are to expensive for farmers to get, but the state could easily provide, or for Cainesland Corporate society, a "license" to "patented" farming techniques?[/quote]

Okay, but access to good farming tools doesn't motivate people to colonize new lands. It motivates them to do what ever it is they need to do in order to get those tools, not travel across the known world and leave their homes behind.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Not really, a good half of roman republican history is incorporating the Latin, Etruscan, and Greek tribes in Italy. Italy had some quite unique tribes, hell a large portion was Etruscan, a very different society from the traditional Romans. Throughout the majority of Romes entire history it republic or empire. It has had to deal with a large none roman population, and was forced to make systems to effectively convert those in into its culture.

That's why I said early republic...

Which is why I simplified the statement to romanticism and incentive. Since land isn't the big of a deal right now, you gotta offer something else in value. Land was how the romans did it, but who's to say that the current governments cant offer something else? Perhaps high valued tools to increase farmer production that are to expensive for farmers to get, but the state could easily provide, or for Cainesland Corporate society, a "license" to "patented" farming techniques?

Okay, but access to good farming tools doesn't motivate people to colonize new lands. It motivates them to do what ever it is they need to do in order to get those tools, not travel across the known world and leave their homes behind.

I never really talked about colonization was more focused on the conquest aspect, but you could always do the roman colonial tactic of splitting up culture groups. That way the isolation of the early ages can isolate the members of the groups, and turn a colonist minority to more of a majority. Its also a good way to force the separated people to conform to norms for survival. That being said, romans did it by the sword. Doubtful anyone is willing to go that far. That being said, while it does minimize the amount of settlers necessary its useless if the settler pool is to low. In that respect, romanticism, propaganda, economic incentive, or simply hyping the wanderlust in people can be options.

[Ralnis]

So after Uruk I'm thinking of trying to make headway into making a steam engine and steam power. I know I don't have steel but it might be good to start getting a head start to make a second industrial revolution and show the Middle East Sumerian supremacy.

[Joohan]

That's why I said early republic...



Okay, but access to good farming tools doesn't motivate people to colonize new lands. It motivates them to do what ever it is they need to do in order to get those tools, not travel across the known world and leave their homes behind.

I never really talked about colonization was more focused on the conquest aspect, but you could always do the roman colonial tactic of splitting up culture groups. That way the isolation of the early ages can isolate the members of the groups, and turn a colonist minority to more of a majority. Its also a good way to force the separated people to conform to norms for survival. That being said, romans did it by the sword. Doubtful anyone is willing to go that far.

... Yeeeeaaaah, doubtful anyone would do that. don't ask why the Icedonian's are so homogeneous

I'm telling you though, colonization just isn't feasible. There aren't enough people to colonize effectively, and there is practically no incentive to move out of one's homeland.

[Joohan]

So after Uruk I'm thinking of trying to make headway into making a steam engine and steam power. I know I don't have steel but it might be good to start getting a head start to make a second industrial revolution and show the Middle East Sumerian supremacy.

Sure

[Ralnis]

So after Uruk I'm thinking of trying to make headway into making a steam engine and steam power. I know I don't have steel but it might be good to start getting a head start to make a second industrial revolution and show the Middle East Sumerian supremacy.

Sure

Never mind, stupid idea. Just stick to water power till steel becomes a thing. Then steam power.

[Joohan]

Sure

Never mind, stupid idea. Just stick to water power till steel becomes a thing. Then steam power.

uh... sure.

[Ralnis]

Never mind, stupid idea. Just stick to water power till steel becomes a thing. Then steam power.

uh... sure.

Never mind all together.

[Joohan]

uh... sure.

Never mind all together.

Heh... whatever bro

[Holy Tedalonia]

I never really talked about colonization was more focused on the conquest aspect, but you could always do the roman colonial tactic of splitting up culture groups. That way the isolation of the early ages can isolate the members of the groups, and turn a colonist minority to more of a majority. Its also a good way to force the separated people to conform to norms for survival. That being said, romans did it by the sword. Doubtful anyone is willing to go that far.

... Yeeeeaaaah, doubtful anyone would do that. don't ask why the Icedonian's are so homogeneous

I'm telling you though, colonization just isn't feasible. There aren't enough people to colonize effectively, and there is practically no incentive to move out of one's homeland.

Exactly, so I took the approach, rather then increasing the settlers (which is hardly viable) what if we minimized the number of people needed for colonizing. The reason for the questionable tactic not working out well, is perhaps author morals or questioning in the society. Perhaps it would work for you or the Commonwealth, but who knows its a questionable tactic.

[Plzen]

One potential way to push people out would be politics. While the settlement of Iceland being interpreted as people seeking freedom from the Norwegian monarchy is... a romanticised perspective, a desire to escape persecution certainly did play a role in pushing people out to the frontier throughout human history.

One downside of this method, of course, is that any new colonies are unlikely to be well-intentioned towards their home polity.

[Reatra]

One potential way to push people out would be politics. While the settlement of Iceland being interpreted as people seeking freedom from the Norwegian monarchy is... a romanticised perspective, a desire to escape persecution certainly did play a role in pushing people out to the frontier throughout human history.

One downside of this method, of course, is that any new colonies are unlikely to be well-intentioned towards their home polity.

proletarian internationalism time

[Holy Tedalonia]

One potential way to push people out would be politics. While the settlement of Iceland being interpreted as people seeking freedom from the Norwegian monarchy is... a romanticised perspective, a desire to escape persecution certainly did play a role in pushing people out to the frontier throughout human history.

One downside of this method, of course, is that any new colonies are unlikely to be well-intentioned towards their home polity.

You know it can still work and stay loyal. Just don't have screwed up laws where kings have the power to manage colonies and not parliament. Oh and give them decent representation.

[Bortslovakia]

... Why would we change our expansion policy from what we currently have to some sort of colonial model? That just doesn't make sense for a state reliant on convincing new populations to join. Now if we were exporting our citizens to Brittany, that would be a different story, but why would we do that? I'd just end up with a depopulated core. Treating the Proto-Gauls the same way the Europeans treated the First Nations would just be moronic, and unproductive. Even the Roman model is silly under the circumstances.

Plus I'm not sure why you're assuming all these different groups spread across France are more isolationist than, say, neolithic tribes in Britain. There's no need for sophisticated treaties and formalized trade routes with them yet. Just ferment good relations with the less hostile groups, provide them with protection against the others, and pop in for a quick spot of trading when we're passing by. Nothing fancy, beneficial for both groups, and in the long run, more settlements for Hibernia.

Remember, I'm intentionally trying to spread into France. Yes, the channel is the superior option for now, but it doesn't offer the same expansion routes as Brittany. Besides, why not do both?

If you recall, you're expansion across Ireland incurred several wars and myriad of power struggles. This all happening among at least relatively clans and tribes, and taking you years to finalize. Now imagine how much more difficult the creation of Hibernia would have been, had every foriegn polity you interacted with been completely alien to your core tribe - speaking an entirely different language and practicing vastly different customs. Then, start separating your tribe away from every other tribe by several hundred miles and a small sea.

Your prior method expansion couldn't be replicated. It'd be like America trying to make the Philippines a state right after the Spanish American war. You also have to acknowledge that there isn't always going to be a friendly or even reasonable tribe around. The friendlies tribe around might be the only one willing to let you pass through - and under the condition of steep tributes, which kind of kills the whole point of commercialism in the first place. There's a very good reason why I went the violent route I did - it was because Violence is a universally known language, and victory the ultimate bartering chip. A tribe can't refuse you if you kill all their men * taps nose *

Tbh, I plan on setting up some forts around Calais and the Belenux after the next timeskip. Gotta protect the homeland from any more imp humanitarian missions.

Ahh the crux of the issue. You've built your state on the assumption that the cultural gap between neolithic groups is insurmountable. I have not. The core assumption of Hibernia is that societal betterment trumps petty tribal politics in the long run. Is said system flawless? Of course not, as evident from the strife within Ireland. That doesn't mean you need to, oh I don't know, slaughter the entire male population of a village and abduct their women to build a cohesive state.

Also I'd like to see 10-20 stone spear wielding neolithic warriors threaten an Irish caravan for tribute. Realistically, it's silly to assume that cooperative settlements would be uncommon anyway. Our states have the power to harness molten earth, save newborns and their mothers in childbirth, build great floating constructs that rain fire down upon enemies, and end food scarcity once and for all. When option B is provoke said states by demanding or stealing a few trinkets, a rational human being would prefer cooperation.

Also also that Philippines example is just not comparable. The length of the channel at its widest point is downright laughable compared to the Pacific. Even assuming naval travel is still quite rough, there's a reason I settled all those islands you refuse to map. They make perfect resupply depots and checkpoints.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Righto, gotcher response up for Deliverance, Joohan. I think that covers everything for the negotiation. I have a bit of internal writing I want to cover after Amahrak leaves and before he gets back to the North Army, but that can wait until any final observations or comments you want the captain to get in.

[Ralnis]

So I was thinking of having the Nestosia aeropile for the inventions and thinking of other inventions to wow people during the conference and even after when Uruk is dealt with.

[Joohan]

Righto, gotcher response up for Deliverance, Joohan. I think that covers everything for the negotiation. I have a bit of internal writing I want to cover after Amahrak leaves and before he gets back to the North Army, but that can wait until any final observations or comments you want the captain to get in.

I left my notes - i'll go ahead and just wait for you to write up Monroe's thoughts. If you could just have him ride off back west on his horse, that would be appreciated.

[Bortslovakia]

Post up. Took the time to lay out our diplomatic institutions in more detail. Brown Cloaks are most certainly not Jedi.

I also got to sass G for his blatant aggression, and violation of Games Workshop copyrighted material. Which is always a win!

[UniversalCommons]

So I was thinking of having the Nestosia aeropile for the inventions and thinking of other inventions to wow people during the conference and even after when Uruk is dealt with.

What we might bring is the aeolipile which would spin and give off steam. However, it would not be strong enough to do anything. The other invention would be the tricycle.

[Endem]

I made a post

[UniversalCommons]

Land may not be valuable, but the things that grow on the land, the plants, the animals, the rocks are valuable if you believe in that kind of thing. If you follow a stewardship ethic, the value is in preserving those things on the land and keeping their value. You can further say with this kind of ethic, there are no externalities, and water, deer, and the services provided by nature are all valuable as well. Thus every inch of land has value as a resource to be preserved for human purposes. Part of the process of preserving is creating value for people through hunting, hiking, boating, fishing, farming, gardening and other activities attached to the land. When people cease valuing the land they live on, they overgraze, destroy, and desertify the world around them. Unfortunately, this is a natural human tendency, because human beings go everywhere and try to make themselves comfortable with little thought to the processes they are using in farming or mining or logging and other things. Thus care in using resources (careful use of resources), production of high quality durable goods, recycling, limiting the production of garbage, craftsmanship that respects the use of materials, and efficiency (very lean manufacturing) in use of resources is absolutely necessary.

None of this is applicable to the current everyman farmer who is just looking to grow enough to eat in a vastly wild and untamed world.

This has quite a bit to do with the every man farmer. The every man farmer knows little of crop rotation, could learn quite a bit about compost, could learn about worm farming guaranteeing much higher yields, and knows little about how to guarantee the fertility of his land. He also may not have learned about how to supplement his food by spreading seeds in the forest to guarantee a yearly extra source of crops from foraging. The every man hunter is often surviving by slashing and burning, moving from one piece of land to the next. The every man farmer knows little of square foot gardening with high density crops. The every man farmer faces starvation from poorly managed land, has trouble preparing for putting things away for later and needs to learn how to build granaries. The every man farmer does not necessarily know which trees to cut, or to plant many trees for each tree he cuts.

Stewardship as a philosophy is a long term farming philosophy. It gives the idea that resources should be managed. It sets the idea that land should be protected and taken care of. It is a change in thinking. It reminds the shepherd that he is taking care of the common resources for the village. Stewardship equally applies to the concept of managing land, water, and forest resources. It changes the ethic from myself and my farm to we manage our resources for the village.

Stewardship is also a philosophy that can be backed by religion to insure proper long term management of temple lands.

[Cainesland]

Universal, for my next post, when that might be, would you like me to try and respond to your characters comments in the IC? Or would proceeding to another point of time be ok? If the latter would it be ok to provide a general description of the answer(s)?

[UniversalCommons]

Universal, for my next post, when that might be, would you like me to try and respond to your characters comments in the IC? Or would proceeding to another point of time be ok? If the latter would it be ok to provide a general description of the answer(s)?

That would be good. Do what you think will make the story better. A few lines of response, that are short that give the gist and then a brief summary answer might work.