Advertisement
by Cainesland » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:33 am
by Ralnis » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:35 am
Cainesland wrote:Universal, is Nestos planning on expanding into Bulgaria and Constantinople?
by G-Tech Corporation » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:42 am
Joohan wrote:G-Tech Corporation wrote:
Disparate cultures? Polities?
What year do you think it is, 1000 AD?
Ain’t nobody here in Central Europe except us Globular Amphora Indo-Europeans.
Tribes and clans all have differing histories, traditions, taboos, customs, languages, and religions - now more than ever, what with no overarching states to enforce any particular cultural doctrines.
by Bortslovakia » Thu Sep 19, 2019 10:56 am
Plzen wrote:Bortslovakia wrote:Not saying an authoritarian state can maintain a war for longer than a democratic state. I'm saying Pat has no formal mechanism that can stop him from escalating, while Rikardus does.
The lack of a formal mechanism is not the same as the lack of a mechanism in general. No legal, administrative, or any other formal distinction stops the thralls in the Northlands from being equal in the natives, yet they somehow seem to always end up with the least desirable jobs.
An autocrat needs to keep his lackies at least somewhat pleased to hold on to power, and said lackies have their own lackies to satisfy, down and down to the common guardsman in the ranks.Bortslovakia wrote:I will say though, it's awfully convenient how slow and bureaucratic the Stórþing is when you need it to be OOC, and yet during this proposed 15 year timeskip you'll be able to organize funding for walls in settlements that seemingly have no natural threats,
You believe that it will be difficult for the government to organize such a fortification effort once the Irish start raiding our coasts in retaliation? I was thinking more along the lines of everyone will be scrambling to do so whether we tell them to or not.
Even if I accept your estimate of 5 years as the length of the war, that’s more than enough time for even thebnot-so-large towns to put up masonry walls.Bortslovakia wrote:convince what are essentially a disparate band of private contractors to fight for reasons beyond profit, and expand the federal army by orders of magnitude.
The Northlands National Guard is, compared to the population backing it, tiny. The political will required to increase its size by an order of magnitude is rather less than the political will, say, Hibernia would have to come up with in order to increase their military by an order of magnitude.
Nobody wants a repetition of the disastrous Norse-Imperial war.Bortslovakia wrote:None of those are things you just pass in one go, and some seem oddly specific when the justification is the Imperium war. Surely the Stórþing would be more interested in funding the defense of the southern border if that were the case?
It is, yes. But preparing for a war with the Imperium is rather less important than fighting the war that’s actually happening. Those projects will largely be suspended when the Irish war begins.Bortslovakia wrote:And where are you getting the idea that you can sneak a sizable force onto Ireland, and pillage cities and farms without anyone noticing until it's too late? We've had this discussion before, and I'd rather not repeat myself. It almost always ends poorly for the raiders. Especially since in 15 years we'll at least have some form of cavalry thanks to Issac speeding along our own program, probably skirmishers and messengers, meaning the time of response will be even shorter. "Surviving off the land" requires remaining in the field for an extended period of time in order for it to have any negative effect on the enemy. Which in this case translates to being trapped between an army, and a fleet with no means of resupply beyond foraging.
And I still disagree on this point. An arbitrarily selected village can get a call for help out to the nearest garrison and have said help arrive the same day? Really?
Of course, that’s on a clear day for a village that has a good lookout point. For a village without good vision out into the sea, I really doubt it takes more than a couple hours to ask for tribute and burn down your fields if we don’t get a positive answer.
Catching the Norse in the open sea is an even more hopeless concept. I can’t patrol the Irish waters even if I mobilise the entire country’s merchant marine of 200-odd ships into the task. The distances involved are just too vast.Bortslovakia wrote:Also you'll have your response to Clara shortly. I am doing it, I swear!
I might end up just writing out the treaty OOC here as well so I don’t have to wait for your IC responses in back-and-forty negotiations.Bortslovakia wrote:With that in mind, I am starting to chafe a bit at the 10,000 number we've assigned Ireland. Not only is it inaccurate, but it seems like what was supposed to be an overall population nerf to everyone has really only effected me. Especially since Icedonia has 10,000 people living in it alone with literally no factual basis.
No more than. It’s a key phrase. I estimated the combined population of England and Wales at 33,000. Since I have no clue on how that is distributed within that region, I generously estimated a third of them live in Icedonian borders.
More realistically you’d be looking at a fraction of that.
I will note that the Imperium’s Central Europe and whatever future state will eventually emerge in Central Americas saw large cuts as well, which I imagine is the reason why neither seem to be particularly willing to accept my estimates.
Which, fair enough, but we do need a standardised global population scheme and I’ve yet to see someone else put their own up.
by Plzen » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:28 am
Bortslovakia wrote:Ireland is smaller than you think, and the majority of its population is in the east. Probably 70-80%, with the plurality of that being along the Boyne river. Excluding the far northeast settlements around Belfast, the MAXIMUM distance a large settlement is from any support is a day. Dublin to Drogheda is only 32 miles. Easily manageable with clear roads at a forced march. The Boyne cities and villages are only a few hours between each other, and the largest of them probably have anywhere from 400-600 people.
Bortslovakia wrote:Between strategic ports, and intimate knowledge of the water's we're sailing, yes we can predict with a fair degree of accuracy where an enemy longship would likely be. You have two viable entrances to the Irish sea, one being more likely than the other. Though not infallible, it doesn't take a genius to come up with an efficient patrol route.
Bortslovakia wrote:The counter raids would most certainly not be at the beginning of the war. That'd be a wasted opportunity. The goal is a relatively bloodless seizing of Orkney.
Bortslovakia wrote:If the Norse continue their offensive for an unreasonable amount of time, only then will the Irish act. Partially to lure the Norse into a false sense of security (A la "The war is over there in Britain, not here at home"), and partially because sacking cities is no easily stomached thing. If it does come to that though, the assault will be rapid, highly aggressive, and targeted at the largest of Scandinavia's Atlantic ports. While the Stórþing is reeling, that's when Hibernia will send its demands. At least that's the theory. Long term it will basically butcher any attempt at a friendship, but wars an ugly thing.
Bortslovakia wrote:For the population thing, I won't deny most of that. It does seem like a lot of people are ignoring the implications. I may make a more cohesive population map of the British isles using the numbers you've provided, just to make things a tad less vague while staying consistent.
Bortslovakia wrote:You will get your response to Clara today. I know I've been inconsistent (real life sucks), but it's almost done.
by Plzen » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:52 am
by G-Tech Corporation » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:10 pm
Plzen wrote:You know, all this discussion of the future Irish-Norse war reminds me, what are the Imperium's raiding policies like? I figure that's a pertinent question to ask, since you'll be using it on the South Jylland settlements. What I said in the above post about storming cities applies to the Imperium as well. If the Imperium is intent on razing those settlements, they can probably put fairly large pressure on the assembly, but no matter how many advantages the Imperium enjoys charging into urban terrain is going to be rather costly in terms of casualties; it's difficult to get numbers to bear in constricted terrain.
What do you think the casualties on the Siege of Kiel is going to be? The Northlands is probably going to lose its entire force by death, injury, or capture, which is about 400 men. But with Kiel being supplied by sea and possessing a number of brick structures that are rather difficult to knock down, you are going to have to assault the city at some point unless you want to spend months knocking down brick houses with ballista fire. I'm thinking 150 or so Imperial total to the 400 Norse total, with 1/3 of that (on both sides) being during the skirmishing between Norse archers and Imperial artillery, 100 a side during the charge, and the rest of the Norse casualties killed or captured after the resistance breaks.
by Alaroma » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:18 pm
by Plzen » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:24 pm
G-Tech Corporation wrote:Razing will certainly be the operant method of forcing terrain denial. Fire, in buildings which are still mostly wood and thatch, is a powerful tool for destroying permanent settlements. Even settlements like Kiel, which have been integrated for a year or three, will still likely be majority-wood, and even brick buildings will have structural components vulnerable to fire. Forcing a population to surrender to military force, burning down their settlement, and driving the civilians northward will be the general principle.
G-Tech Corporation wrote:I'm not sure if you're on the same page as what would be in place when you speak of urban terrain casualties. Even a settlement of hundreds might only have thirty buildings in this period, with extended families preferring to live in a single dwelling due to the time-costs of construction, and Kiel isn't likely to be larger in peacetime than a hundred souls or so.
G-Tech Corporation wrote:If you're planning to resupply by sea, and have anything like the centralized logistics for that (which seems... dodgy, at least in a true siege situation), ships are amply vulnerable to incendiaries. The Imperium will have no qualms about setting up warmachines interdicting the ~200 m channel into Kiel itself and burning supply vessels rather than actually engaging in man to man combat. The same is true of the village itself. An intermittent bombardment to reduce most of Kiel to ash, and particularly destroy vulnerable supplies, will probably see Kiel's defenders forced to sally or flee via said interdicted channel within a fortnight.
G-Tech Corporation wrote:I can't say Cerrus has any motivation to assault the city itself. Even though I doubt a small village like we are talking about will give any notable urban warfare effects favorable to a defender. The Imperium's policy toward casualties has been clear, and I can't really change it now, even if a shock assault might be advantageous - they're uninterested in dying in order to kill their enemies, preferring instead more languid methods of destruction.
G-Tech Corporation wrote:Of course, that puts Rikardus in a bit of a bind. A frontal assault toward the Imperium once standing in Kiel becomes unviable will certainly cause more casualties in his foes than trying to flee by sea, but it will see the end of his National Guard as a fighting force and greatly contribute to Northern war weariness. Fleeing by sea is similarly fraught with danger, but might see at least a few ships slip away with minimal casualties, ready to carry on the fight.
by Ralnis » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:25 pm
Alaroma wrote:God conversations like this remind me what a clusterfuck Europe is. Speaking of, what’s going on in Egypt?
by Hanafuridake » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:33 pm
Suriyanakhon's alt, finally found my old account's password李贽 wrote:There is nothing difficult about becoming a sage, and nothing false about transcending the world of appearances.
by Plzen » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:35 pm
by G-Tech Corporation » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:49 pm
Plzen wrote:It's very unlikely that your forces will be let into the settlement unless you force your way in. From the perspective of the people who live there, what keeps you from killing everyone once you're already spread out through the town?
But burning wood and thatch structures via ranged attacks, that sounds quite viable as a method of raiding. I assume this will also include torching farmland.
Closer to 200 than 100. It might not be urban terrain by the standards of, oh, the Second World War, but even with just a score of buildings it's developed enough that any charge would be broken up into many smaller fights in and between buildings, not one open battle of eight hundreds against four in a plaza large enough to accommodate 1,200 men. Simply put, you can't force 800 men into the city and have that number bear down in any meaningful way. It would be hard to have more than 100 or 200 people on each side on the front lines at any given point.
The oldest signatories in this region would have been part of the Commonwealth for 6~7 years now (fuzzy borders, remember? ), so there's brick buildings enough to stash food and ammunition in. As I said, an army in this period really only needs its stomach full and bows loaded. Burning down most of the town would present some rather obvious overcrowding problems, though, which does bring up disease as a major killer in a siege.
It'll take well over a fortnight for the defenders to run out of supplies, though, even without resupply. The National Guard and the raiding band would be used to carrying around weeks of supplies, although given the time of year the town itself might be fairly impoverished.
Then you're looking at a long siege, really. A couple months, maybe.
Rikardus will probably conditional-surrender his force, in all honesty, if there is an understanding that they'll be returned unharmed at the conclusion of hostilities. An escape by sea only makes sense if there's a reasonable expectation that they'll be at least partially successful which, if you've been sinking resupply vessels left and right, there won't be.
by Joohan » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:04 pm
by G-Tech Corporation » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:10 pm
by Plzen » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:12 pm
G-Tech Corporation wrote:A settlement without the wherewithal to construct a palisade to defend itself has constructed enough brick buildings to house supplies for hundreds of men? That... seems quite unlikely.
G-Tech Corporation wrote:Even setting that aside though, I doubt Kiel's buildings are constructed entirely of brick, floors, ceilings, walls, and.. doors? Shingle roofs would be prohibitively expensive this far from the center of the Northlands, so we're talking thatch. And thatch burns a right trick. As do support beams which most brick buildings would have of any size. Certainly brick walls will give time to save more supplies, but there at any rate, a village reduced to a few brick skeletons is not a village capable of being meaningfully defended or lived within for an extensive period of time. That's a minor quibble though.
G-Tech Corporation wrote:Eh, I doubt it will take that long. If the only thing that was happening was starving out the National Guard, perhaps, but the bombardment will be more extensive than that. The heavy flechettes the Imperium's warmachines use will be causing casualties daily even with a desultory assault, and likely fatalities [...] Two weeks of a half dozen casualties a day, more when skirmishers are pushed forward, and the National Guard won't exist as a fighting force.
G-Tech Corporation wrote:given the status of Nordic medical science (which I'm not aware of having been advanced beyond things like epidemic control?).
by Hanafuridake » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:21 pm
Suriyanakhon's alt, finally found my old account's password李贽 wrote:There is nothing difficult about becoming a sage, and nothing false about transcending the world of appearances.
by Alaroma » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:36 pm
Hanafuridake wrote:Plzen wrote:You mean, Rikardus after the Commonwealth-Imperium war?
After all, it's going to be the side that lost the war that burns up in revanchist fury, not the winners.
I think the footage was taken after the Second Italo-Ethiopian War, which Mussolini won. Hence why it applies more to Viktor.
Also we know that Mussolini is the only one who can compete with him in ego.
by G-Tech Corporation » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:39 pm
Plzen wrote:400 people would go through about a third a cubic metre of wheat a day. Crops being not as nutritious in the neolithic as it was in the industrial era, call it maybe 30~40 cubic metres for the entire venture. A communal house that size would be maybe 20 metres of brick wall plus ceiling. Putting a city wall around Kiel would be rather considerably more than 20 metres of brick wall.
Kiel is half a week's sail from Roskilde. It's really not "far from the centre of the Northlands." Roskilde-Sigtuna is double that distance and Roskilde-Bergen three times as long. Most buildings aren't brick construction, but the ones that are don't have thatched roofs.
It'll only be people in the open who are caught in those, though. Half a dozen casualties a day sounds like a rather large estimate. For anyone except skirmishers there's little reason to spend long lengths of time outside of cover, wherever that's available.
That and sanitation, pretty much. Cleanliness keeps disease away. Certainly the ratios of deaths to nonfatal injuries would lean much heavier towards deaths than it has been in 20th Century conflicts.
by Hanafuridake » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:43 pm
Suriyanakhon's alt, finally found my old account's password李贽 wrote:There is nothing difficult about becoming a sage, and nothing false about transcending the world of appearances.
by Plzen » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:47 pm
G-Tech Corporation wrote:Fine, fine. Even if we concede the point of this settlement, never before mentioned,
G-Tech Corporation wrote:At any rate, I don't need to belabor the point. I know you don't enjoy these conversations. My basic conclusion is that I don't think a prolonged siege to starvation will be necessary, given what Kiel is composed of, and the Imperium's ability to inflict casualties on the defenders at an outsize rate.
by Joohan » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:00 pm
Plzen wrote:G-Tech Corporation wrote:Fine, fine. Even if we concede the point of this settlement, never before mentioned,
You can't possibly expect me to mention IC'ly each one of the hundreds of settlements in the Northlands, nor can you possibly expect me to list every significant innovation or material progress developed or pushed forwards by Clara. I'm going to assume that the nation progresses year after year even if I don't write IC posts detailing what is getting done where.
Politics interests me more than writing fifty IC posts about incremental technological improvements, so I'm going to write politics in some detail and mention only those technological innovations I find most significant.G-Tech Corporation wrote:At any rate, I don't need to belabor the point. I know you don't enjoy these conversations. My basic conclusion is that I don't think a prolonged siege to starvation will be necessary, given what Kiel is composed of, and the Imperium's ability to inflict casualties on the defenders at an outsize rate.
Fine. I concede the point. I really am starting to understand Ralnis' perspective on this RP, I must say.
Advertisement
Return to Portal to the Multiverse
Users browsing this forum: Melon Heads, The GAmeTopians, The Vooperian Union, Vadrana
Advertisement