Personification Life, the Universe & Everything 2 [OOC OPEN]

[Giovenith]

The reason I suggested a new one separate from the Den is because people already use the Den for non-political things, so it kind of entraps people. Where to go when you want to make immature sex jokes, but don't want to discuss whether or not Taylor Swift supporting restoring the shogun to the throne of Japan is a good thing?

The (self)moderation part is difficult.


This issue in gameplay has manifested itself plenty of times before. It seems to boil down to what balance between introspective play and extroverted play is ideal, since you really can't have one without the other effectively. Thoughts and feelings are pointless if they don't lead to action, but action is equally boring if it doesn't cause any kind of personal or internal change to those acting.

[Tiltjuice]

So we need to teach it as a skill. Go back to basics. Teaching RP?

[Mincaldenteans]

Hello am here

Gameplay
That should be the next challenge then - how to post balance. I largely quit PL because I frankly despise the saying and doing things style of gameplay (note, I don't say style of RP because to me that isn't RP). I define RP strictly as PbPG. Tabletop and LARP are their own thing, to be done on a separate plane from PbPG.

No issue with Discord itself one way or the other. I'm quite capable of keeping the two separate.

Politics. The donkeylephant in the room. A dedicated channel isn't practicable because people are already incapable of clicking in or out of them. Assigning a role is a solution that I personally don't like, because there is already the Den for it and it calls on staff to be authority figures to moderate the politics channel even when (A) I don't have time because lbr the staff is currently all of me and (B) I am not guaranteed to be impartial and (C) I disagree ideologically with the whole concept of authority figure which can and will lead to some unexpected combinations of results.

TLDR If you can't be mature, stay out of the Den. Call me lazy? Call yourself lazy for not moderating your own behavior.

Largely, if not entirely, agreed with Tilt here.

I don't mind collabs, in fact, I particularly enjoy them when there's an established rhythm of prior posts to necessitate a collab (battle scenes, events, big group actions, etc.). I particularly do not care for collabs that take days (even weeks) to complete for a simple action that now has killed the momentum. That said, I prefer longer and multiple posts with self introspection, painting scenes, and minute details that while may not mean anything to the reader - it's something to the player, it's what breathes life into the character you're playing or else everything is rote and flat. Quote and spoiler the last post if you're responding to it to capture and continue the scene, players are more than capable of following along, exemplifying and magnifying a scene and the story in one post that doesn't warrant a collab.

You guys want a balance? Its always been there, it's a matter of how you play or want to play, it hasn't NOT been done before. Dedicate your posts to establishing the story that leads to a collab and end it with more posts, rinse and repeat. This has been going on in forum RP, since like, ever. It's nothing new and nothing revolutionary need be taken to keep a story going.

Character Intro:
I've been monitoring the chats in Discord as usual, even as I'm mostly unavailable. The intro'ing of characters will remain a challenge, but with Gio, Tilt (and any vet player here - which is largely all of you), can help ease characters in. Yes, these were largely handled by Swith and Cer; they are not available anymore and neither am I for the time being. Help each other.

Info dump: I don't entirely understand how info dump (or lack thereof) is, resolutely, a singular issue with new or experienced players or their characters and how to proceed. Your character has just been dropped from wherever and now among strangers who are more than willing to help ease s/he/it into the setting. There will be questions, there will be discoveries, you can move about and your characters will stumble, and no - we're not going to kill them off, maim, or cripple them for life for getting your character into the setting. But prior knowledge of canon to make a simple move then begs the question why you're even trying to absorb the crap-ton of prior canon in the first place, or info to even have your character say "what the hell is going on?" The line between your character and your knowledge of the setting will creep into meta'ing the RP simply because you have "insight" on what to & not to do. The same goes with characters that have been in PL for a long time: your characters don't know everything (even if you, the player, have more knowledge on what's going on). Do you spoil the tension, thrill and drama by not making a move simply because you know what will happen, or do you do it anyway because it's a good challenge for your character?

I say stop with prevaricating to posts (or not to post) and have your character get on or off the pot, its easy as that. Participate, or don't. No one's going to force you either way.

Politics
What Tilt said. I've told you all before if you cannot comport yourself accordingly when tension and nerves are high, then leave that channel or staff will come in to mute or ban outright. People have also left because of it. Making a "NSFW" political channel would be no different and no guarantee it won't spill out to the other rooms. Want a political channel? You're in NS, go participate in the appropriate thread(s) to your heart's content, but leave it out of Madhouse. That said, I'm also for deleting the Den channel and keeping it to the main chat. Chats will remain PG13 in the main room and Tilt will find himself having less to deal with, on the whole (sorry, Tilt).

[Stormwrath]

So what you're saying is that Discord...

has caused discord?

<rimshot.mp3>

[Monfrox]

We're all here to do RP. How we go about it hasn't always been an issue before. Some people prefer collabs, other prefer the back-and-forth. I think the problem is that we've all become so wrapped up in the idea of the objective in order to avoid becoming a chat RP. Dialogue is good when it creates character development, but people may be overthinking the objectiveness of the dialogue part. The balance needs to be found, but there are also plenty of opportunities for people to do a story in whatever it is. The ideas should flow. We've got the world at our fingertips in the IC, it's time to start getting into it.

As far as the politics go, there have been a few other servers I've been in that have dedicated political channels. As someone who prefers heavily to not engage in political discussion, as you all know, I've since muted the channels. It's literally as simple as that. If it's put to a place, it can stay there. I hadn't stifled the political discussion because every time I did after a while, I was accused of shutting the discussion down. But it's still a server about RPing, not necessarily about politics even though we're on a politically charged gamesite. Putting it on us is unfair. Without a designated place or a concrete rule (which I thought we had but I guess we don't anymore?) for political discussion, there's very little preventing it from cropping up in other channels.

And that's where it starts because we have become a clique. But we're not all the same, and friction is created when people start bickering about differences, and the main hot topic is and always has been politics. People have become so divided over politics, that it would seem like a sensible option to avoid discussing it altogether. At the very least, the political channel would give us an easier place to go to. But the problem isn't that "When political things come up, just don't comment" because if a political topic comes up, some people could agree and feel inclined in a somewhat small manner to say they do. The problem becomes when someone doesn't agree. That's where the arguing starts, and devolved from. Then someone has to get a boot. That's not a permanent solution to the problem, honestly. The thing about it is the line doesn't seem to be drawn when someone has made a politically charged post, it is made when the argument starts. And drawing the line there doesn't put the fault on the people who have agreed with what was posted, it puts the fault on the person who has disagreed, and that's where you start getting into the dangerous echo chamber territory.

Not to mention, if you're not guaranteed to be impartial when it comes to moderating political discussion, then maybe there should be a staff rearrangement to resolve the bias issue.

[Mincaldenteans]

A political channel as an easier platform is a misnomer at the very least. Staff has seen countless times where players have attempted to be civil only for it to derail and blow up in everyone's faces forcing someone to leave entirely, or mute, or simply not participate. How does creating a political channel solve or mitigate what will eventually happen anyway?

A rearrangement of staff wouldn't solve the issue either. Whatever our beliefs are quelled on what appropriate action to take, most (if not entirely) have been lenient with and only after much internal discussion has taken place prior. We don't take actions lightly and sometimes, even in my opinion, sometimes not swiftly enough.

I'm sorry, as far as I see on the political chat idea: it isn't tenable. Lines, demarcations, what can and cannot be discussed, who is bias, who isn't, who is fair... take all that to the forums, clearly it didn't work in Discord and creating a sub-channel isn't going to solve the issue either. I don't want Tilt being spammed DMs because players that decided to partake in said chat end up not moderating themselves. Want a discussion on politics, there's the an entire forum here, feel free to partake, but don't bring it into Discord. EDIT: Cause I realized I repeated myself, go fig.

[Stormwrath]

Oh boy, I have to put in paragraphs of text to actually show how I feel about this? Gio's right, Discord has made me lazy.

Anyway, I don't personally care about the balance between writing what my character thinks and what my character does, it just comes to me whenever I craft a post. In writing a back-and-forth post or a collab I only just care about the relevance of my content to the end result I want to portray, and that eventually provides balance to my RP style. I agree with Mon that we should just focus on what ideas could be done next, but I also say that what or how to incorporate those ideas into a post is also important. We can't just use every possible idea we have at the moment, otherwise it would be a convoluted mess.

As for Discord, I tend to view it as an evolution of the IRC format NS groups used to have years ago. Sometimes the things I like I share with my friends immediately, which could've been incorporated into an RP post, fair enough. But I don't think that Discord takes away what could've been used in a post, it's just a matter of keeping both the chatbox and the RP stuff separate so that this OOC doesn't become a chat thread, as mentioned before. What eventually comes out in a post, again, is in what or how we incorporate our ideas into our characters.

Politics? As always, 'tis time for me to say the guiding principle when discussing politics: "Be civil or be gone." If we cannot avoid talking about politics, at least let's remain good friends when we're done. If you can't handle that, then you've given the staff one more reason why we can't have a political channel on the Madhouse Discord.

[Tiltjuice]

Not to mention, if you're not guaranteed to be impartial when it comes to moderating political discussion, then maybe there should be a staff rearrangement to resolve the bias issue.

Now you are either flamebaiting, because you know very well after 6 years where the limits of my temper are, or inviting condescension because you are acting stupid when you manifestly are not.

The person who says he disdains any sort of concept of authority figure (which includes himself in that position) is therefore open to recusing himself from acting as staff in such a discussion.

If the person who says he is not guaranteed to be impartial is capable of recognizing it and is therefore recusing himself, there is no need for any sort of rearrangement.

You (among others) are not thinking this through despite having the intelligence to.

Wake up.

At the very least, the political channel would give us an easier place to go to. But the problem isn't that "When political things come up, just don't comment" because if a political topic comes up, some people could agree and feel inclined in a somewhat small manner to say they do. The problem becomes when someone doesn't agree. That's where the arguing starts, and devolved from. Then someone has to get a boot. That's not a permanent solution to the problem, honestly. The thing about it is the line doesn't seem to be drawn when someone has made a politically charged post, it is made when the argument starts. And drawing the line there doesn't put the fault on the people who have agreed with what was posted, it puts the fault on the person who has disagreed, and that's where you start getting into the dangerous echo chamber territory.

I WORK IN IT AND I FOLLOW INTERNET SOCIOLOGY. I'M WELL AWARE OF THE INTERNET HAVING THE POTENTIAL FOR AN ECHO CHAMBER. THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON THAT I OPENED UP POLITICS IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE I TRUSTED THAT YOU ALL COULD BE ADULT ENOUGH TO EXAMINE WHY WE THINK WHAT WE DO AND SHARE WITH EACH OTHER SO THAT IT PRECISELY DOES NOT BECOME AN ECHO CHAMBER.

INSTEAD THINGS GOT HEATED. I HAVE ALREADY MADE MY FEELINGS KNOWN ON THIS TO THE OTHER STAFF.

[Monfrox]

Not to mention, if you're not guaranteed to be impartial when it comes to moderating political discussion, then maybe there should be a staff rearrangement to resolve the bias issue.

Now you are either flamebaiting, because you know very well after 6 years where the limits of my temper are, or inviting condescension because you are acting stupid when you manifestly are not.

The person who says he disdains any sort of concept of authority figure (which includes himself in that position) is therefore open to recusing himself from acting as staff in such a discussion.

If the person who says he is not guaranteed to be impartial is capable of recognizing it and is therefore recusing himself, there is no need for any sort of rearrangement.

You (among others) are not thinking this through despite having the intelligence to.

Wake up.

At the very least, the political channel would give us an easier place to go to. But the problem isn't that "When political things come up, just don't comment" because if a political topic comes up, some people could agree and feel inclined in a somewhat small manner to say they do. The problem becomes when someone doesn't agree. That's where the arguing starts, and devolved from. Then someone has to get a boot. That's not a permanent solution to the problem, honestly. The thing about it is the line doesn't seem to be drawn when someone has made a politically charged post, it is made when the argument starts. And drawing the line there doesn't put the fault on the people who have agreed with what was posted, it puts the fault on the person who has disagreed, and that's where you start getting into the dangerous echo chamber territory.

I WORK IN IT AND I FOLLOW INTERNET SOCIOLOGY. I'M WELL AWARE OF THE INTERNET HAVING THE POTENTIAL FOR AN ECHO CHAMBER. THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON THAT I OPENED UP POLITICS IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE I TRUSTED THAT YOU ALL COULD BE ADULT ENOUGH TO EXAMINE WHY WE THINK WHAT WE DO AND SHARE WITH EACH OTHER SO THAT IT PRECISELY DOES NOT BECOME AN ECHO CHAMBER.

INSTEAD THINGS GOT HEATED. I HAVE ALREADY MADE MY FEELINGS KNOWN ON THIS TO THE OTHER STAFF.

"Now you are either flamebaiting, because you know very well after 6 years where the limits of my temper are, or inviting condescension because you are acting stupid when you manifestly are not."

Uhm, okay?

"The person who says he disdains any sort of concept of authority figure (which includes himself in that position) is therefore open to recusing himself from acting as staff in such a discussion."

Maybe acting as staff outright, but you still are a staff member and you can be viewed as having that authority. You don't talk shit to an off-duty cop just because he's off duty at the moment.

"If the person who says he is not guaranteed to be impartial is capable of recognizing it and is therefore recusing himself, there is no need for any sort of rearrangement."

No. That's wrong. That's absolutely wrong. As a staff member and a CO-OP, people expect you to be impartial when dealing with problems. To say that you recognize yourself as not being impartial does not abstain you from scrutiny under other members, staff or not, for such bias.

"I WORK IN IT AND I FOLLOW INTERNET SOCIOLOGY. I'M WELL AWARE OF THE INTERNET HAVING THE POTENTIAL FOR AN ECHO CHAMBER. THIS IS EXACTLY THE REASON THAT I OPENED UP POLITICS IN THE FIRST PLACE BECAUSE I TRUSTED THAT YOU ALL COULD BE ADULT ENOUGH TO EXAMINE WHY WE THINK WHAT WE DO AND SHARE WITH EACH OTHER SO THAT IT PRECISELY DOES NOT BECOME AN ECHO CHAMBER.

INSTEAD THINGS GOT HEATED. I HAVE ALREADY MADE MY FEELINGS KNOWN ON THIS TO THE OTHER STAFF."

Okay there's no need for caps. Also, to say that your trusted that we all could be adults removes yourself from the equation when, in fact, you are also part of this problem. It is everyone's problem and everyone is to blame for it in some way or another. We're all guilty of fostering the arguments and not ending them when they have gone too long. It's that reason why I'm so adamant about not discussing politics. "Friends who want to stay friends don't discuss religion or politics", that's my and has always been my philosophy with it.

[Tiltjuice]

That's not right, that's not even wrong.

You can't argue both that I'm removed from the equation and that I'm viewed as having that authority. If I'm removed from the equation, how can I have any authority as a nonentity? Furthermore, how can there be any arguments if we make an effort at understanding what's causing those arguments on a systematic level? But fine, whatever. You don't want politics to be brought up in any capacity. I tried to fix it permanently within the group, and all I got was static from you and some others and a complete misunderstanding that caused this in the first place. If I'm guilty of anything, it was not making the nature of the discussion clear so people knew. Suppressing the issue doesn't FIX it. It only buries it more to blow up later, and take more effort later on to fix.

I don't have time to argue more with you over your passive aggressively trying to pin it all on me under the guise of "it's everyone's problem". I can read between the lines and see "everyone's [but mine]". Min and I agree that you're banned from PL. You can appeal to Swith or Cer when they come back.

[Stormwrath]

*sighs*

Unless you wanna scare off any new players who could jumpstart PL again, I suggest you calm down for now. What Mon said isn't a bad idea, just get some temporary staff to help you and Min out for the time being until Swith and Cer get back, preferably ones who also know everything there is to know about PL lore and other Madhouse-y things, as well as being decently active enough to keep things peaceful on Discord. Self-moderation I agree should be something members should do on their own, but we still need moderators over there to still make sure we don't end up hostile to one another regardless.

Can we get back to actually playing now?

[Tiltjuice]

The Internet is tone-deaf, so... I'm perfectly 90% calm, Storm. I used to play poker, you know, that game where making srs decisions while angry can cost you a great deal. I quit only because I didn't have time for it anymore, which should tell you something about the reason I kept playing. Hint - it's not because I lost repeatedly.

That's what I wanted in the first place and what I've been trying to get across to people. If you don't want blowups, deal with things civilly and like adults. It should not have taken this last round of arguments to get results and it would not have if people acknowledged that hey there is a problem, AND that hey, there's this guy trying to fix things! Let's cooperate with him so the problem gets fixed!

Guess what didn't happen?

As for getting back to playing, what do you think I've been doing? The sooner the problem gets fixed, the sooner we can get back to playing. Which is what I've been trying to get at. I don't want to be THE problem solver. I'm sick of it. I want to be my usual random funny self.

[Chedastan]

So I've been dragged back here huh, greaaat.

Okay I'm talking politics cause apparently we must derail an entire RP's OOC even further while it's at the bottom of a deep and cavernous well already. IF you're gonna get frisky at text or images on a screen due to having opposing viewpoints on the subject matter, may I suggest you do any of these plethora of activities first before you commit the time and effort into writing a response that'll largely get ignored at the end of the day, and only get you more pissed cause frankly; you don't go on the internet to change people's minds. That's really dumb, you don't change people's opinions cause you think you can write a well structured essay to them, just don't, this isn't that kind of setting. Just read a book, watch a movie, hang out with your actual friends, go on dates, find a career, get married, just anything else not involving trying to typographically yell at a guy across the globe through your choice of device, thinking fruitlessly you could reach out to him better than the vast socio-economics systems, family dynamics, and just general life background that made the person that had offended you.

The PLosts... They feel verbose, being wordy and lengthy, while containing little useful substance. They made me get in the habit of thinking I must by wordy too in order to congeal right into the mess, but unless you came in at the right time in the RP, you feel like you're trying to read a novel midway through with a portion of the pages missing, and the first half of the book being taped together shut, overall it's just confusing and hard to follow once you take a break or are lost. If you're writing a novel, please realize at least halfway through that most people aren't interested on reading whatever the hell you're spewing forth into the bowels of a IC thread, and just simplify things enough to make it exciting to both a reader and you, and not take half an hour to get a third of the way through, and make you question your life decisions.

Discord. If the problem is that people aren't discussing the RP enough on the NS forum, may I just suggest just getting rid of the PLanning channel, it would solve a lot of the redundancies that plague getting people motivated to actually post onto the forum, given that in theory PLanning activities would become more centralized to this very forum, and thus less clicks away from posting in the actual IC with that new fresh idea in the poster's skull.

[Holy Lykos]

I dont have much to add.

I think the plosting is ultimately up to personal styles, but some of them get so overly verbose like ched says it's a slog to read. Slo manages to get flow well often, as do others, and flow is important to all styles of writing in the end.

I also feel an in media res intro might be better than super directed, and if people want a more "dr who" short story to get people integrated that's nice too.

[Giovenith]

NVE, Storm, you still good with your story?

[Stormwrath]

NVE, Storm, you still good with your story?

I'm still good with it. Gonna check first on what happened while I was gone.

[Giovenith]

And how about you, Souls? I've been offering to help you get more familiar and introduced. Are you too busy?

[Stormwrath]

I'll have to ask if any others are gonna join the story NVE and I are gonna cook up, so...

Any others? I'll need at least two more.

[Tiltjuice]

I'll have to ask if any others are gonna join the story NVE and I are gonna cook up, so...

Any others? I'll need at least two more.

/in

[Giovenith]

I'll have to ask if any others are gonna join the story NVE and I are gonna cook up, so...

Any others? I'll need at least two more.

Yes, that is the pickle, ain't it?

[Stormwrath]

I'll have to ask if any others are gonna join the story NVE and I are gonna cook up, so...

Any others? I'll need at least two more.

Yes, that is the pickle, ain't it?

I'll take the pickle if I have to.

[Monfrox]

I'm back and unbanned. We now return to your scheduled programming.

[Northwest Slobovia]

By the power vested in me by the Civet in Chief, I post a new...

SITREP Gallimaufry /ɡaləˈmôfrē/ noun a confused jumble or medley of things. PL: SITREP 7 DEC, 2018 CURRENT IC CONDITIONS Time: 8:30 AM (0830 hours) Weather: 31 °F / -0.5 °C; 20" / 0.5 m of snow has fallen overnight. Forecast: Snow tapering off to clouds by mid-morning, followed by clearing by early afternoon.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Storm, NVE: Your story can be run isolated in its own bubble of time, separate from the current timeskip to December.

[Giovenith]

I've been figuring out how to use the wiki. Made a mostly complete page for Sallow.

If anyone wants help creating a page for their character, let me know.