1900: Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC-OPEN]

[Tracian Empire]

Tracian Empire

Is the green country in Southeast Asia belongs to me or someone else ?

If the green country belongs to you or to someone else? To someone else. You became inactive, and your claim was removed, so another player was able to reserve that area.

[Ministerial]

Hello, well. Sorry to say but I won't be able to participate in this rp. Nothing against the mods, I believe they did a good job in fact-checking me. Just that I'm have some irl stuff to attend to and other rps.

[Raetia Secunda]

Reservation

Nation Name: __________ of Persia
Territory: Modern day Iran and Turkmenistan (the bit left in Western Asia)
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 72 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting reservations.

Plessur version 2.0 here. Gonna go with a Marcionite Persia predominantly populated by steppe invaders. Whats going on in that area of the world?

[Tracian Empire]

Reservation

Nation Name: __________ of Persia
Territory: Modern day Iran and Turkmenistan (the bit left in Western Asia)
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 72 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting reservations.

Plessur version 2.0 here. Gonna go with a Marcionite Persia predominantly populated by steppe invaders. Whats going on in that area of the world?

A Marcionite Persia? That could be interesting.


Not much, really. For now at least. The Russians to the north seem to be focused on other things, the Romans are mainly focused on Africa, and I'm not sure what the Indians are doing.

[Raetia Secunda]

WIP:

Full Nation Name : Kingdom of Kiziqal [آلِ کزیقآله] / State of Persia and Khorasan (the first name refers to the ruling dynasty and their governance, the second to the physical realm they rule) [مملکت ایران و خراسان] (new script to follow later hopefully)
Majority/Official Culture : Persian (though of an ethnic composition very different to antiquity)
Territorial Core : Modern day Iran, southern Mesopotamia and western bits of Turkmenistan
Territorial Claim : Mesopotamia
Capital City : Shenāriyah (modern day Hamedān)
Population : 21 million

Government Type : Absolute monarchy.
Government Ideology/Policies : Deep religiosity has always been the main ideology. Religious conformity is an ideal to be worked towards. ...
Government Focus : At all times the government's main focus is security, both from without in the form of relations with neighbours, and from within, with possibilities of civil uprisings from minorities or those frustrated with the archaic political system. In addition all kings are heavily involved in promoting religious agendas, which helps keep at least Marcionites loyal to the monarchy that is so closely tied to religion. This also usually involves oppressive agenda regarding religious minorities, with nearly every king engaging in efforts to rid the kingdom of other denominations of Christians. The Karaites also pose problems, though their large population as well as their dense concentration means they must be tolerated, with the King appointing an Exilarch in Rayy to ensure they are bound to the state apparatus.
Head of State : King Lūqās IV Shovekh, Elect of God, Guardian of the Faith, King of kings of Persia and the Four Corners of the World
Head of Government : Prime Minister Marqos Simeonayyād (appointed as leader of the Royal Council), Patriarch Yahanan of Babylon (leader of the Marcionite Church, and de facto second most powerful man in Persia), Judge Filipos Bishapurād (chief judge of the Court of the Lord).
Government Description : Absolute monarchy with devolved governance. At a city and regional area, each district is run by an elected (albeit weighted with a three-class franchise) council, which sends a Representative to the Royal Council in Shenāriyah. On paper, the Royal Council is what the label says - an advisory body for the autocratic monarch. However in recent years, the Council has assumed an important role of curbing excessive ambitions of a monarch as well as maintaining order in the army and policing forces, both giving scope as well as restraining the King. In addition the (unelected) Court of the Lord, purported as a purely jurisdictive body, exercise much power in how it interprets both religious and temporal legislation. The membership of the Court is composed of nobles primarily from the Zagros, with seats inherited.

Majority/State Religion : Marcionism (essentially the dualist Christian heresy that rejects the Old Testament and any connection between the God of Israel and the new god of Christianity)
Religious Description : Marcionism was imposed by a new dynasty in fifteenth century, though it had a substantial number of adherents before that point. The hierarchy of the Marcionite Church is based in Shenāriyah, with the King serving as Guardian of the Faith and Elect of God. In addition, the King, together with the small Assemblage of the Lord, chooses the Patriarch of the Marcionite Church, known as the "Patriarch of Babylon". This has meant that the Marcionite religion is used as a tool by government and adds an extra emphasis to obeying its orders.
The population of the Kiziqal kingdom is, however, not just Marcionites. There is a large Karaite Jewish minority, particularly in Khorasan and the Elborz. The Karaite Tabernacle in Rayy is of great importance to the international Karaite community, which includes many Karaites in northern Mesopotamia, the Caucasus and the Crimea. In addition there are a small number of other Christian sects in all areas as well as pagan groups in parts of Baluchistan and Hyrcania.

Economic Ideologies : Capitalism. The government lacks the means to control the economy to any great extent, though exprts to neighbouring states can be controlled to an extent.
Major Production : Small manufactured goods, particularly textiles (mostly for local production), cereals and other agricultural goods (including cotton); livestock and their products, including wool and leather; petrochemicals (not developed yet but the idea is under work)
Economic Description : The bulk of economic activity in Persia revolves around city bazaars and traders who transport goods from region to region; hardly the large-scale economy of a developed country. The main exports are agricultural - cereals and other foodstuffs are mostly grown in the Caspian regions, with small areas of the Zagros capable of large scale agriculture. Cotton is grown extensively in Khorasan and represents a more valuable export. The Zagros and Fars is more valuable for the extensive animal husbandry possible, supplying meat wool and leather; in addition Persia is internationally renown for its well-bred sturdy horses.
The future of the Persian economy lies in petroleum. However few in Shenāriyah have an inkling of how valuable and important this sector will be thus any plans to get it off the ground - of which there are - haven't met breakthrough yet.

Development: Persia is an early transitional society, moving towards a semi-industrialised level though still not enough industry to qualify as so.
Development Description : The economic situation overall is primitive. Industry is developing in southern Mesopotamia around the Gulf, though the economy in general remains much as it was a century ago. The petroleum industry is developing to the extent in that it may take off in the duration of the RP. The government is also making an effort to develop shipping in the Gulf to further afield. Less effort has been made in Caspian shipping, the local states less lucrative or encouraging.


Army Description : The Persian army is made up of two components: the modernized infantry of the King, the Nezam-e Jadid , approx. 70,000; and the 20,000 irregular cavalry loyal to the King. Tribal militias add up to approx. 30,000 troops, though not modernized. Given enough time, the Persians can mobilize a formidable army. The problem lies in mobilizing it fast enough. Each region must supply soldiers proportional to its population and must have a fraction of those actively serving at any one time. Units are combined together according to religion, with Karaites serving under almost separate command until the highest echelons. The army is armed with relatively modern rifles, though there aren't enough to arm the fully mobilised army.
The regional base of the army means a more natural command structure where the common soldier is more familiar with his commanders. This also means that individual groups of soldiers can be more effective than a conglomeration of groups under one command. The Persian army operates best at wearing down the enemy without pitched battles, meaning any invasion of Persia would face formidable problems.
Army Weakness : Speed of mobilisation, lack of rigorous command structure over the whole army.
Naval Description : Until very recently non-existent, Persia has developed a small navy on both of its seas. A small fleet of 15 cruisers ply the Caspian, while a larger group of 25 cruisers and 10 frigates have just been completed on the Gulf, reflecting the growing interest of the government in the security of the Gulf border. In any war both groups would work at transporting troops fast as well as attacking enemy shipping and coastal bases. The Gulf force is particularly designed to be able to close the Straits of Hormuz should it be necessary in minimum time.
Naval Weakness : Its small size, as well as its being behind the cutting edge of naval technology to say the least.
Further Military Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

National Goals : Advance economy while retaining the current political situation, bolster the Marcionite dominance of religious life. Regarding foreign policy, the ERE is a challenge in a religious sense, encouraging the other sects of Christians to assume their continued undisturbed existence. Otherwise, the main security issues come from Afghans and Baluchis on the eastern border as well as from Russians in the Oxus valley threatening Khorasan.
National Issues : Religious differences: the motto is "make all people Christian and make all Christian Marcionites".
National Figures of Interest : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Are there any Mother Teresas or Moses that we need to know about?]]
National Ambition/Aspirations : The crowning territorial ambition of the Kiziqal dynasty is Mesopotamia, the legendary land of Babylon after which the Patriarchate is named. However practically it is least feasible to obtain. More important for security would be control of the Oxus valley in the northeast and the Caucasus in the northwest, and governments have long watched Central Asia with much concern.
The ultimate aspiration of the state is for the further spread of Marcionite Christianity, the religion so intertwined with the kingdom. Its appeal to pagans and those unexposed to Christianity is utilised by missionaries, loosely organised by the Patriarchate, who travel to nearby countries and further afield to Africa and East Asia.

History : Hordes of Turkic invaders migrate into Persia, slowly destroying the Sassanids until its formal end in 834 CE. Much political fragmentation until approx. 1100-1200. Major state for a while is a Bulgar-ruled empire ruled from Rayy, which converts to Karaite Judaism in 981. Current Kiziqal kings from 1587. (Details to follow, more fleshing out)

The great Roman-Persian War of the seventh century ended early in December 627, with Khosrow II making peace with Heraclius at Nineveh with a treaty settling the conflict uti possidetis. This led to minor uprisings against Khosrow II, which he managed to survive through. A much greater problem faced the Sassanians in the form of the Arab invasion of Mesopotamia in 633. Betrayed by his son Kavadh, who had him murdered in Ctesiphon, the Arabs succeeded in driving the Sassanians out of their capital and the whole of Mesoptamia by 635. Relocating to the Zagros, the embattled Sassanian rulers never mustered the power to retake Mesopotamia, even as the Arabs struggled against their Roman adversaries to the north and west.
The Sassanian hold over Persia began to end from the early eighth century, when steppe invaders first conquered Khorasan and then chunks of the central Iranian plateau. Losing the Elborz and finally Fars in 762, the Sassanians continued ruling in their small kingdom in the Zagros for another three generations before their final destruction by a Bulgar-led alliance in 834.
Persia remained politically and culturally fragmented for approximately two centuries. Khorasan and the plateau was populated by various Turkic groups originating from the Eurasian steppe, while the Zagros was an ethnic salad of Persians and various groups displaced from the Arab conquest of Mesopotamia. Many Zoroastrians as well as Christians emigrated from Mesopotamia during a series of religious oppressions initiated by the Mesopotamian Arab rulers in the late ninth century.
The northern areas of Iran became the most important in the tenth century, with the rise of a Bulgar empire based in the Elborz. After inheriting the khanate founded by his father Arslan in Rayy in 801, the Bulgar khan Alatcek led the alliance responsible for the destruction of the Sassanian state, the greater part of which he annexed to his kingdom. His sons partitioned the kingdom after his death, going on to independently conquer Khuzestan, Fars, Ardalan and parts of Aturpatakan (Azerbaijan), before both kingdoms were eventually inherited by Alatcek's great granddaughter Tekhhila Khanum. The first of the Turkic monarchs to adopt Persian traditions and outlook, Tekhhila crowned herself Shahanshah and made Persian the language of the court at Rayy. She also fought a number of wars with the Mesopotamian Arab kingdom, though never succeeded in conquering any territory. Tekhhila was responsible for strengthening the Bulgar state and giving it a Persian legitimacy. She was succeeded by her first cousin and consort Kivghar in 980. Kivghar completed her work by establishing a religion for the fledgling state. Influenced by the Karaite Jews of Hyrcania, which Tekhhila had annexed in 963, Kivghar converted with his court to Karaite Judaism, with much of the nearby population following over the years.
This glorious period of the Kivgharids lasted until approximately 1300, in which Karaite Judaism spread unevenly across Persia and Khorasan, inevitably following where Kivgharid power extended. During much of the late twelfth century and early thirteenth century steppe invaders weakened the Kivgharid state and eventually reduced it to its stronghold of the Alborz and Azerbaijan, which dissolved in 1342 with the death of the last heir of the throne Aaron VI and the breaking out of civil war. During this time various Christian statelets established themselves in the western half of Persia, the largest being Orkoe in southern Mesopotamia, based near ancient Uruk, which successively defended itself against the Caliphate of Baghdad in 1109. By 1300 the main powers were Orkoe, Hamadan and Susa; together with a number of other statelets Hamadan was the main beneficiary of the Kivgharid collapse.
...
The Kiziqal dynasty, of Khitan descent, first came to power in Tavrēš (modern Tabriz) in Aturpatakan in 1501. By then Hamadan controlled much of the northern Zagros and Alborz and, crucially, had converted to Marcionite Christianity in 1454. King Yelu-Shashta Kiziqali conquered Hamadan in 1587 after a succession dispute, creating the largest state seen in Persia since the Kivgharid period. Converting to Marcionism, Yelu-Shashta added a new religious fervour to the monarchy, providing justification for the wars of conquest of his sons, uniting Persia by 1623 with the conquest of Khorasan. Despite two civil wars, three Karaite uprisings and one foreign invasion (the Afghans in the 1780's), the Kiziqal state survived until the dawn of the twentieth century, using its unique methods of religious backing and balancing of regional interests.
RP Sample: I'm Pless, if anyone remembers

#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

Reservation

Nation Name: __________ of Persia
Territory: Modern day Iran and Turkmenistan (the bit left in Western Asia)
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 72 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting reservations.

Plessur version 2.0 here. Gonna go with a Marcionite Persia predominantly populated by steppe invaders. Whats going on in that area of the world?

A Marcionite Persia? That could be interesting.


Not much, really. For now at least. The Russians to the north seem to be focused on other things, the Romans are mainly focused on Africa, and I'm not sure what the Indians are doing.

Interesting that the ERE has Mesopotamia... what should the story behind that be?

[Tracian Empire]

Territorial Claim : Mesopotamia

[Tracian Empire]

Interesting that the ERE has Mesopotamia... what should the story behind that be?

Well, it depends.

OOCly, I conquered it at some point during the first or the second iteration of this roleplay from the nation that initially owned it.

ICly, and from a historical perspective, back when Ik had Persia, I think that the Romans conquered it under Heraclius.

Now, I've always been vaguely willing to give Mesopotamia back to Persian players if they needed it, but tensions over it could also be interesting.

[Raetia Secunda]

Interesting that the ERE has Mesopotamia... what should the story behind that be?

Well, it depends.

OOCly, I conquered it at some point during the first or the second iteration of this roleplay from the nation that initially owned it.

ICly, and from a historical perspective, back when Ik had Persia, I think that the Romans conquered it under Heraclius.

Now, I've always been vaguely willing to give Mesopotamia back to Persian players if they needed it, but tensions over it could also be interesting.

Perhaps it would be best if you got northern and central Mesopotamia somewhere around 900-1000 CE, when the area had been depopulated by constant Arab-Persian wars. I think for geopolitical reasons it would be best if the ERE didn't have the very southern part, which would give her a place on the Gulf and make her too powerful perhaps. Something like ancient Assyria, perhaps all the way to Baghdad.

And good to see from the Russian app that Mongols were cancelled.

Territorial Claim : Mesopotamia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Bas_relief_nagsh-e-rostam_al.jpg

[Tracian Empire]

Perhaps it would be best if you got northern and central Mesopotamia somewhere around 900-1000 CE, when the area had been depopulated by constant Arab-Persian wars. I think for geopolitical reasons it would be best if the ERE didn't have the very southern part, which would give her a place on the Gulf and make her too powerful perhaps. Something like ancient Assyria, perhaps all the way to Baghdad.

And good to see from the Russian app that Mongols were cancelled.

Well, we will have to discuss the Arab wars anyway, because they're clearly different from how they were in real life. I do vaguely remember that the Arabs were supposed to have taken Mesopotamia at some point, and the Romans conquering it during the Crusades would make a lot more sense.

But like I said, I'm alright with dropping a part of it - I'm a lot more focused on Africa and the Suez, but drawing borders in that area isn't going to be easy.

[Pasong Tirad]

Has Christianity here changed all that much? Planning on talking about Oriental Orthodoxy - Copts, Assyrians, etc. - in my first post.

[Raetia Secunda]

Has Christianity here changed all that much? Planning on talking about Oriental Orthodoxy - Copts, Assyrians, etc. - in my first post.

It seems a number of heresies survived much longer... Persia is Marcionite!

Perhaps it would be best if you got northern and central Mesopotamia somewhere around 900-1000 CE, when the area had been depopulated by constant Arab-Persian wars. I think for geopolitical reasons it would be best if the ERE didn't have the very southern part, which would give her a place on the Gulf and make her too powerful perhaps. Something like ancient Assyria, perhaps all the way to Baghdad.

And good to see from the Russian app that Mongols were cancelled.

Well, we will have to discuss the Arab wars anyway, because they're clearly different from how they were in real life. I do vaguely remember that the Arabs were supposed to have taken Mesopotamia at some point, and the Romans conquering it during the Crusades would make a lot more sense.

But like I said, I'm alright with dropping a part of it - I'm a lot more focused on Africa and the Suez, but drawing borders in that area isn't going to be easy.

Perhaps Sassanians conquered the southern bit before being destroyed by the invading hordes in 800's, and the rest of Mesopotamia survived as an Arab kingdom until the Crusades.

It would also be interesting for me to border on the Caliphate like this. Maybe we will help any Horn of Africa state together.

[Tracian Empire]

Has Christianity here changed all that much? Planning on talking about Oriental Orthodoxy - Copts, Assyrians, etc. - in my first post.

Well, most of them still had to deal with Arab invasions, and then the Crusaders were also not exactly nice for them, but they are theoretically tolerated in Roman lands.

Oh, and as a random thing - the Ethiopian king would mostly be considered the successor of Axum in Roman eyes, so he would probably be considered to be a basileus.

I'm not sure if the Persian king would be awarded that honor.

[Tracian Empire]

Has Christianity here changed all that much? Planning on talking about Oriental Orthodoxy - Copts, Assyrians, etc. - in my first post.

It seems a number of heresies survived much longer... Persia is Marcionite!

Well, we will have to discuss the Arab wars anyway, because they're clearly different from how they were in real life. I do vaguely remember that the Arabs were supposed to have taken Mesopotamia at some point, and the Romans conquering it during the Crusades would make a lot more sense.

But like I said, I'm alright with dropping a part of it - I'm a lot more focused on Africa and the Suez, but drawing borders in that area isn't going to be easy.

Perhaps Sassanians conquered the southern bit before being destroyed by the invading hordes in 800's, and the rest of Mesopotamia survived as an Arab kingdom until the Crusades.

It would also be interesting for me to border on the Caliphate like this. Maybe we will help any Horn of Africa state together.

We could certainly divide it like that, yeah. Or we could even divide it by half, the thing is that we need to have a nice looking border xD

[Pasong Tirad]

Has Christianity here changed all that much? Planning on talking about Oriental Orthodoxy - Copts, Assyrians, etc. - in my first post.

Well, most of them still had to deal with Arab invasions, and then the Crusaders were also not exactly nice for them, but they are theoretically tolerated in Roman lands.

Oh, and as a random thing - the Ethiopian king would mostly be considered the successor of Axum in Roman eyes, so he would probably be considered to be a basileus.

I'm not sure if the Persian king would be awarded that honor.

Sorry, a basileus?

[Tracian Empire]

Well, most of them still had to deal with Arab invasions, and then the Crusaders were also not exactly nice for them, but they are theoretically tolerated in Roman lands.

Oh, and as a random thing - the Ethiopian king would mostly be considered the successor of Axum in Roman eyes, so he would probably be considered to be a basileus.

I'm not sure if the Persian king would be awarded that honor.

Sorry, a basileus?

Well, long story short, the Romans always considered their imperial title (whether it was the old Latin Augustus, or the Hellenic Basileus) to be above other similar titles. The rulers of most Western European nations were considered to be inferior in rank, as an example.

There were two notable exceptions however - the Persian Shahanshah and the King of Axum were both awarded the title of basileus in diplomacy and all of that.

[Pasong Tirad]

Sorry, a basileus?

Well, long story short, the Romans always considered their imperial title (whether it was the old Latin Augustus, or the Hellenic Basileus) to be above other similar titles. The rulers of most Western European nations were considered to be inferior in rank, as an example.

There were two notable exceptions however - the Persian Shahanshah and the King of Axum were both awarded the title of basileus in diplomacy and all of that.

Ah, alright, but what would that mean for me, though? Is my emperor in line for the throne? Is he considered equal in rank to the Byzantine Emperor? Are our two countries going to have a "special relationship?"

[Tracian Empire]

Well, long story short, the Romans always considered their imperial title (whether it was the old Latin Augustus, or the Hellenic Basileus) to be above other similar titles. The rulers of most Western European nations were considered to be inferior in rank, as an example.

There were two notable exceptions however - the Persian Shahanshah and the King of Axum were both awarded the title of basileus in diplomacy and all of that.

Ah, alright, but what would that mean for me, though? Is my emperor in line for the throne? Is he considered equal in rank to the Byzantine Emperor? Are our two countries going to have a "special relationship?"

No, it wouldn't give him any rights for the throne, but the Romans would consider him to be equal in rank to the Roman imperial title, sort of. But it also depends on the relations between the two countries

[Danceria]

Is it possible to enter in this RP?

[Tracian Empire]

Is it possible to enter in this RP?

I mean, you already entered it once before, so yes, it is possible.

[Danceria]

Is it possible to enter in this RP?

I mean, you already entered it once before, so yes, it is possible.

I wasn't sure since I never did come around to making a nation, and since a great deal of things have happened IC, didn't know how/if I could start. Still planning on being a Brazil, but not sure who's my former colonial overlord.

[Tracian Empire]

I mean, you already entered it once before, so yes, it is possible.

I wasn't sure since I never did come around to making a nation, and since a great deal of things have happened IC, didn't know how/if I could start. Still planning on being a Brazil, but not sure who's my former colonial overlord.

You're still more than welcome to join, and Brazil is free.

As for a former colonial overlord, well, you'd have to choose an European nation for that.

[Angora Guanaco]

Tag

Thinking of doing a united New Zealand and Australia (minus the Japanese part)

[Tracian Empire]

Tag

Thinking of doing a united New Zealand and Australia (minus the Japanese part)

Yeah, that area is free, I'll reserve it for you.

[Tracian Empire]

Also, we'll do yet another general culling soon - it would be nice to know who is still active and who isn't.

[Plzen]

Still alive.