The Elder Scrolls: The Gibbering's Gambit [OOC | Open]

[Negarakita]

Did I hear elf stuff?

Which non-elven race are we enslaving today, fellow Mer?

The argonians who killed Llednea's family while she hid in the closet

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

Already on it!

[Derelldia]

Also for the folks at the bandit attack on the road to Anvil... Do we want to skip forward to Anvil? Since it's been a few days since anything has happened concerning all that.

And then, suddenly, a post arrived!

My wonderful magic powers of fortunate timing, at it again.

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

Something insanely cool we might see in TES6.

I talked with Kurt about a whole mental anguish thing that happened to the world of TES after Talos was shot out of heaven by the Thalmor.

Short version: any attempt to draw the old red diamond would invariably end up failing.

Ex: A painter would paint it. The paint would set. The paint would crack and move. The final painting would be a 2D explosion. More Talos despair would set in.

Ex: Blacksmiths would forge the symbol. The metal would cool, be applied to an Imperial helmet. A brave legate would wear it. The diamond stayed on long enough to meet with a Dominion ambassador. Imperials would be all "See? Our faith in Talos is--" Legate's helmet would crack from the symbol, legate's head crushes in. More Talos despair. Dominion ambassador would smile and accept the surrender of whole legions.

Ex: A bard, knowing the "cracking diamond effect", attempts to describe the symbol in verse, to avoid the physical danger. He performs the verse to a crowd of secret Talos worshipers. They begin to see the diamond in their minds and are overjoyed. Then the screaming starts. Two hours later, a throng of headless corpses are found, strewn diamond-pattern in a courtyard. Other worshipers arrive to look on them, seeing a sign of their god in the bodies of his martyrs. Crowds gather at this holy site. Dominion lets the hope set in, declares small doubt in the finality of Talos' erasure. People go "whoa" and flock to the site. Thalmor button is pressed. The new settlement blows up as anything around the diamond shape regards it in a chain-reaction explosion of viscera, language, spellfire. Half a province surrenders to the Thalmor.

Parts of Game: Skyrim would show all of this in mechanical terms. The LDB would have to learn how to successfully craft the diamond shape without danger. They would have to avoid certain "latent diamond traps", etc.

Was awesome idea. Was also... technically difficult. Was also radical. Is saved for a future game or DLC.

https://www.imperial-library.info/conte ... bride-2014

[Strength and Order]

Something insanely cool we might see in TES6.

I talked with Kurt about a whole mental anguish thing that happened to the world of TES after Talos was shot out of heaven by the Thalmor.

Short version: any attempt to draw the old red diamond would invariably end up failing.

Ex: A painter would paint it. The paint would set. The paint would crack and move. The final painting would be a 2D explosion. More Talos despair would set in.

Ex: Blacksmiths would forge the symbol. The metal would cool, be applied to an Imperial helmet. A brave legate would wear it. The diamond stayed on long enough to meet with a Dominion ambassador. Imperials would be all "See? Our faith in Talos is--" Legate's helmet would crack from the symbol, legate's head crushes in. More Talos despair. Dominion ambassador would smile and accept the surrender of whole legions.

Ex: A bard, knowing the "cracking diamond effect", attempts to describe the symbol in verse, to avoid the physical danger. He performs the verse to a crowd of secret Talos worshipers. They begin to see the diamond in their minds and are overjoyed. Then the screaming starts. Two hours later, a throng of headless corpses are found, strewn diamond-pattern in a courtyard. Other worshipers arrive to look on them, seeing a sign of their god in the bodies of his martyrs. Crowds gather at this holy site. Dominion lets the hope set in, declares small doubt in the finality of Talos' erasure. People go "whoa" and flock to the site. Thalmor button is pressed. The new settlement blows up as anything around the diamond shape regards it in a chain-reaction explosion of viscera, language, spellfire. Half a province surrenders to the Thalmor.

Parts of Game: Skyrim would show all of this in mechanical terms. The LDB would have to learn how to successfully craft the diamond shape without danger. They would have to avoid certain "latent diamond traps", etc.

Was awesome idea. Was also... technically difficult. Was also radical. Is saved for a future game or DLC.

https://www.imperial-library.info/conte ... bride-2014

Please no. The Thalmor are a tragedy of poor writing that shouldn't even exist. Giving them the power to literally destroy a god is just adding insult to injury.

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

The Thalmor as a whole and their ideas aren't badly written.

The way they've been implemented in Skyrim, perhaps - or rather, the way how the fanbase for that particular game went "Altmer are nazis!11!!1!" went was a true tragedy for sure!

[Free States of Agnosicstan]

I'm a supporter of 'Morrowind for the Dunmer' and even I hate the Thalmor.

[Nuxipal]

The lack of Bosmer Robin Hood expies disturbs me. I shall rectify this. Somebody has to be the slightly naive but charming guy.

You should meet me and llyrin in the imperial city when we arrive and we can do elf stuff.

Also Faal and Nux, how long til y'all wanna arrive in the Imperial city?

We could do it next post as far as I'm concerned. We had our group introductions and can proceed into the city.

[Strength and Order]

The Thalmor as a whole and their ideas aren't badly written.

The way they've been implemented in Skyrim, perhaps - or rather, the way how the fanbase for that particular game went "Altmer are nazis!11!!1!" went was a true tragedy for sure!

Their entire rise to power is an insult to fiction writing. It's full of illogical events and inconsistencies as they're basically spoon-fed victory after victory just to make them more powerful, all the while they suffer zero setbacks or significant obstacles.

The Thalmor are a shoehorned villain, which is the absolute worst kind because it makes their entire existence feel fake (which it does).

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

The Thalmor as a whole and their ideas aren't badly written.

The way they've been implemented in Skyrim, perhaps - or rather, the way how the fanbase for that particular game went "Altmer are nazis!11!!1!" went was a true tragedy for sure!

Their entire rise to power is an insult to fiction writing. It's full of illogical events and inconsistencies as they're basically spoon-fed victory after victory just to make them more powerful, all the while they suffer zero setbacks or significant obstacles.

The Thalmor are a shoehorned villain, which is the absolute worst kind because it makes their entire existence feel fake (which it does).

I disagree wholeheartedly.

The Altmer are a highly isolationist and xenophobic people who live on an island paradise that they've defended from invaders that tried to completely wipe out their entire race for thousands of years, every year again and again, until Tiber Septim arrives. He arrives, commits some casual genocide, throws part of their people into a timeless war against a reality-denying god machine, and forces them to bow to his rule. They are then forced to accept him as a god, and when they finally, for once, need the Empire during the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire bails out and leaves Summerset to get slaughtered - again. The rise of the Thalmor as a reactionary movement to this makes more than sense, and the fact that they throw out the severely weakened Empire that had already mostly left the place to defend Cyrodiil isn't strange at all.

Valenwood, similarly, is a very fractured place and always has been - dissent was brewing even before the Oblivion Crisis as a result of the Camoran Usurper, still, and even more so following the Crisis. It is more than reasonable that skilled manipulators could utilize this to their own end - the Aldmeri Dominion already existed before, and it could well be used as a type of rallying cry for those dissatisfied with the Empire in Valenwood.

It's certainly true that the Thalmor have won a lot - namely, their entire rise to power. Their success in the Great War is simply because they excel at one thing over the Empire especially - intelligence gathering and other assorted covert actions. The Empire was using a glorified order of dragon hunters from Akavir as spies. The Thalmor don't and instead employ far more successful methods, evidently. They do suffer setbacks - see them getting slaughtered to the last Mer at the Battle of Red Ring, or being pushed from Hammerfell entirely. We know that they regularly conduct purges of dissidents within their own lands, implying that things within their own borders certainly aren't all that great for them either - they control the informationflow coming from it, however, and as such we don't hear about it.

The depiction of the Thalmor in Skyrim certainly isn't great - they're pretty much not!nazis there, and it sucks. But their rise to power and motivations (ie, the unmaking of linear time so as to restore the Altmer to their original, divine state) are not shoehorned at all - it is, in fact, about as Altmer as it can be. They're the Altmeri culture and religious beliefs molded in a reactionary form and taken to an extreme.

[Strength and Order]

Their entire rise to power is an insult to fiction writing. It's full of illogical events and inconsistencies as they're basically spoon-fed victory after victory just to make them more powerful, all the while they suffer zero setbacks or significant obstacles.

The Thalmor are a shoehorned villain, which is the absolute worst kind because it makes their entire existence feel fake (which it does).

I disagree wholeheartedly.

The Altmer are a highly isolationist and xenophobic people who live on an island paradise that they've defended from invaders that tried to completely wipe out their entire race for thousands of years, every year again and again, until Tiber Septim arrives. He arrives, commits some casual genocide, throws part of their people into a timeless war against a reality-denying god machine, and forces them to bow to his rule. They are then forced to accept him as a god, and when they finally, for once, need the Empire during the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire bails out and leaves Summerset to get slaughtered - again. The rise of the Thalmor as a reactionary movement to this makes more than sense, and the fact that they throw out the severely weakened Empire that had already mostly left the place to defend Cyrodiil isn't strange at all.

Valenwood, similarly, is a very fractured place and always has been - dissent was brewing even before the Oblivion Crisis as a result of the Camoran Usurper, still, and even more so following the Crisis. It is more than reasonable that skilled manipulators could utilize this to their own end - the Aldmeri Dominion already existed before, and it could well be used as a type of rallying cry for those dissatisfied with the Empire in Valenwood.

It's certainly true that the Thalmor have won a lot - namely, their entire rise to power. Their success in the Great War is simply because they excel at one thing over the Empire especially - intelligence gathering and other assorted covert actions. The Empire was using a glorified order of dragon hunters from Akavir as spies. The Thalmor don't and instead employ far more successful methods, evidently. They do suffer setbacks - see them getting slaughtered to the last Mer at the Battle of Red Ring, or being pushed from Hammerfell entirely. We know that they regularly conduct purges of dissidents within their own lands, implying that things within their own borders certainly aren't all that great for them either - they control the informationflow coming from it, however, and as such we don't hear about it.

The depiction of the Thalmor in Skyrim certainly isn't great - they're pretty much not!nazis there, and it sucks. But their rise to power and motivations (ie, the unmaking of linear time so as to restore the Altmer to their original, divine state) are not shoehorned at all - it is, in fact, about as Altmer as it can be. They're the Altmeri culture and religious beliefs molded in a reactionary form and taken to an extreme.

I agree with your assertion that they represent the Altmer, Altmeri culture, and the Summerset Isles accurately, but I respectfully disagree with the notion that the Thalmor - as a powerful faction - are completely forced.

First, there's the complete retcon of the Legions leaving the Provinces of the Empire to fend for themselves. I've always hated this because Chancellor Ocato himself straight up tells the Hero of Kvatch: "I'm sorry, I can't spare any Legions for the defense of Bruma as they're currently combating the Daedra in the other Provinces, but I wish you luck at any rate." Not in those exact words, but the message is still clear-cut. It's further reinforced by the fact Legion forces in Oblivion are reduced to little more than patrols and the Imperial Watch. With Skyrim they retconned it so they could break up the Empire easily and shoehorn House Redoran, the An-Xileel, and most importantly, the Thalmor, into power in their respective regions. It completely destroys Ocato's character too, where he was originally depicted as a mer who was loyal to the idea of the Empire. What's more it makes even less sense that he'd abandon his own home province like that.

But even if you ignore that blatant disregard for their own established lore, it still doesn't justify the Thalmor coming to power. Their whole rise to power in the Summerset Isles, for example, is incredibly flimsy and unrealistic. Here you have this fringe political group with no real support claiming they single-handedly ended the Oblivion Crisis, and nobody even bothers to ask "How"? They just all accept that these extremist nobodies saved Tamriel just because they said they did? I know the Altmer were shattered after the Daedra invasion, but for a people of reason that seems incredibly idiotic to just accept whatever some local nobodies say as the truth. This is my biggest problem with them: They claim responsibility for great things, but don't bother to explain how their responsible and everyone just accepts it.

This happens again with Elsweyr. Two giant moons suddenly disappear out of the sky for two years, driving the entire Khajiit race mad in the process, and then suddenly show up again. Let's just ignore the fact that this event is not only completely random and makes no sense, but is also never explained and everybody seems to have forgotten about it as it's not even mentioned anywhere or by anyone except in passing by in-game books. So here come the Thalmor, strolling along and proclaiming they restored the moons through "previously undiscovered magicks". Never mind the fact that's a completely shitty excuse to back up their claim - which they provided no real evidence of. The Khajiit, apparently having done too much skooma, just straight up accept this as fact and willingly surrender their sovereignty over to a bunch of people who literally think they're genetically superior to them. Because apparently everyone in Tamriel are gullible fools.

Even the acquisition of Valenwood is bullshit. They - somehow - gather enough to support to launch a coup, while also defeating the Imperial Legion without much of a fight in the process. Where exactly are the Blades in this scenario? Literally the greatest spy-bodyguards in Tamriel and they're being shown up by a bunch of fringe fundamentalists. This also goes for their coup in the Summerset Isles. Why, exactly, do the Blades suddenly suck at something they've been doing effectively for centuries all of a sudden? Absolutely mind-boggling.

That's another thing, the Blades. So, somehow a Thalmor ambassador strolls into the Imperial City with a cart full of Blade heads. Let's ignore the fact that there's no way you could smuggle a cart full of severed heads into the biggest city in Tamriel, especially when that city is the capital of a state you've repeatedly clashed with in the past. How exactly did they manage to hunt down and kill every single Blade in the Dominion? Is Jason Bourne a member of the Thalmor now? How is it they are besting the Blades at their own game so easily? And how did the Empire not notice all their Blades were suddenly dead? Do they not keep in contact with their own agents?

Finally, there's the Great War. So ignoring the unoriginal name, this upstart nation manages to beat back the Empire and nearly destroy it. Let's talk about the problems with this. First, the Empire has four Provinces at this point while the Dominion has about three. The Empire's provinces are not only bigger, but it is also home to the literal crossroads of Tamriel: Cyrodiil, which boasts not only a large population but a much more diverse one than the other Provinces. Let's also consider the fact that the Imperial City has long been the most important city in Tamriel since... just about forever. Overall, the Empire is bigger, has a larger population, and has a long history of military superiority via the Imperial Legion. Then comes this young, upstart isolationist power - which theoretically should be hated by anyone who isn't an elf and even many elves as well - that manages to kick the ass of the most powerful fighting force in Tamrielic history like it's nothing. That's not even taking into consideration the fact that the Empire was still homed to all three of the great warrior races of Tamriel, giving them a distinct edge in combat. The Legion gets it's ass handed to it like it's nothing, the Empire - despite having come into conflict with the Dominion before - is seemingly caught off guard by this completely predictable invasion, and even after destroying the entire Aldmeri invasion force... they still surrender? What? What is that? They basically won, a Pyrrhic victory sure, but still a victory. The most logical position to take at this point would be a White Peace but apparently that was too logical for the Emperor. There was no reason to suspect that they had anything left to fight the Empire with, after all they invaded with a massive force that managed to go so far as to take the Imperial City - an impressive feat in and of itself. There's no legitimate way they could have had another army up their sleeves, for if they did they would have brought it up the moment the war stopped going in their favor. Not to mention the fact that the Thalmor solely employ the use of Altmer soldiers, thus leaving the entire populations of Valenwood and Elsweyr untouched by military service - putting them further at a disadvantage.

It's all just spoon-fed victory after spoon-fed victory. The Thalmor are like those entitled people who were born into wealth and then claim they earned it. It's an absolute travesty of writing. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Also, I personally think it'd be more accurate to compare them to the Klan rather than the Nazis. The former are more religious than the latter.

[Zanera]

Those racist bastard Altmer and their Crystal-Like-Law, if Dagon did anything good he showed them what-for!

[Free States of Agnosicstan]

I disagree wholeheartedly.

The Altmer are a highly isolationist and xenophobic people who live on an island paradise that they've defended from invaders that tried to completely wipe out their entire race for thousands of years, every year again and again, until Tiber Septim arrives. He arrives, commits some casual genocide, throws part of their people into a timeless war against a reality-denying god machine, and forces them to bow to his rule. They are then forced to accept him as a god, and when they finally, for once, need the Empire during the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire bails out and leaves Summerset to get slaughtered - again. The rise of the Thalmor as a reactionary movement to this makes more than sense, and the fact that they throw out the severely weakened Empire that had already mostly left the place to defend Cyrodiil isn't strange at all.

Valenwood, similarly, is a very fractured place and always has been - dissent was brewing even before the Oblivion Crisis as a result of the Camoran Usurper, still, and even more so following the Crisis. It is more than reasonable that skilled manipulators could utilize this to their own end - the Aldmeri Dominion already existed before, and it could well be used as a type of rallying cry for those dissatisfied with the Empire in Valenwood.

It's certainly true that the Thalmor have won a lot - namely, their entire rise to power. Their success in the Great War is simply because they excel at one thing over the Empire especially - intelligence gathering and other assorted covert actions. The Empire was using a glorified order of dragon hunters from Akavir as spies. The Thalmor don't and instead employ far more successful methods, evidently. They do suffer setbacks - see them getting slaughtered to the last Mer at the Battle of Red Ring, or being pushed from Hammerfell entirely. We know that they regularly conduct purges of dissidents within their own lands, implying that things within their own borders certainly aren't all that great for them either - they control the informationflow coming from it, however, and as such we don't hear about it.

The depiction of the Thalmor in Skyrim certainly isn't great - they're pretty much not!nazis there, and it sucks. But their rise to power and motivations (ie, the unmaking of linear time so as to restore the Altmer to their original, divine state) are not shoehorned at all - it is, in fact, about as Altmer as it can be. They're the Altmeri culture and religious beliefs molded in a reactionary form and taken to an extreme.

I agree with your assertion that they represent the Altmer, Altmeri culture, and the Summerset Isles accurately, but I respectfully disagree with the notion that the Thalmor - as a powerful faction - are completely forced.

First, there's the complete retcon of the Legions leaving the Provinces of the Empire to fend for themselves. I've always hated this because Chancellor Ocato himself straight up tells the Hero of Kvatch: "I'm sorry, I can't spare any Legions for the defense of Bruma as they're currently combating the Daedra in the other Provinces, but I wish you luck at any rate." Not in those exact words, but the message is still clear-cut. It's further reinforced by the fact Legion forces in Oblivion are reduced to little more than patrols and the Imperial Watch. With Skyrim they retconned it so they could break up the Empire easily and shoehorn House Redoran, the An-Xileel, and most importantly, the Thalmor, into power in their respective regions. It completely destroys Ocato's character too, where he was originally depicted as a mer who was loyal to the idea of the Empire. What's more it makes even less sense that he'd abandon his own home province like that.

But even if you ignore that blatant disregard for their own established lore, it still doesn't justify the Thalmor coming to power. Their whole rise to power in the Summerset Isles, for example, is incredibly flimsy and unrealistic. Here you have this fringe political group with no real support claiming they single-handedly ended the Oblivion Crisis, and nobody even bothers to ask "How"? They just all accept that these extremist nobodies saved Tamriel just because they said they did? I know the Altmer were shattered after the Daedra invasion, but for a people of reason that seems incredibly idiotic to just accept whatever some local nobodies say as the truth. This is my biggest problem with them: They claim responsibility for great things, but don't bother to explain how their responsible and everyone just accepts it.

This happens again with Elsweyr. Two giant moons suddenly disappear out of the sky for two years, driving the entire Khajiit race mad in the process, and then suddenly show up again. Let's just ignore the fact that this event is not only completely random and makes no sense, but is also never explained and everybody seems to have forgotten about it as it's not even mentioned anywhere or by anyone except in passing by in-game books. So here come the Thalmor, strolling along and proclaiming they restored the moons through "previously undiscovered magicks". Never mind the fact that's a completely shitty excuse to back up their claim - which they provided no real evidence of. The Khajiit, apparently having done too much skooma, just straight up accept this as fact and willingly surrender their sovereignty over to a bunch of people who literally think they're genetically superior to them. Because apparently everyone in Tamriel are gullible fools.

Even the acquisition of Valenwood is bullshit. They - somehow - gather enough to support to launch a coup, while also defeating the Imperial Legion without much of a fight in the process. Where exactly are the Blades in this scenario? Literally the greatest spy-bodyguards in Tamriel and they're being shown up by a bunch of fringe fundamentalists. This also goes for their coup in the Summerset Isles. Why, exactly, do the Blades suddenly suck at something they've been doing effectively for centuries all of a sudden? Absolutely mind-boggling.

That's another thing, the Blades. So, somehow a Thalmor ambassador strolls into the Imperial City with a cart full of Blade heads. Let's ignore the fact that there's no way you could smuggle a cart full of severed heads into the biggest city in Tamriel, especially when that city is the capital of a state you've repeatedly clashed with in the past. How exactly did they manage to hunt down and kill every single Blade in the Dominion? Is Jason Bourne a member of the Thalmor now? How is it they are besting the Blades at their own game so easily? And how did the Empire not notice all their Blades were suddenly dead? Do they not keep in contact with their own agents?

Finally, there's the Great War. So ignoring the unoriginal name, this upstart nation manages to beat back the Empire and nearly destroy it. Let's talk about the problems with this. First, the Empire has four Provinces at this point while the Dominion has about three. The Empire's provinces are not only bigger, but it is also home to the literal crossroads of Tamriel: Cyrodiil, which boasts not only a large population but a much more diverse one than the other Provinces. Let's also consider the fact that the Imperial City has long been the most important city in Tamriel since... just about forever. Overall, the Empire is bigger, has a larger population, and has a long history of military superiority via the Imperial Legion. Then comes this young, upstart isolationist power - which theoretically should be hated by anyone who isn't an elf and even many elves as well - that manages to kick the ass of the most powerful fighting force in Tamrielic history like it's nothing. That's not even taking into consideration the fact that the Empire was still homed to all three of the great warrior races of Tamriel, giving them a distinct edge in combat. The Legion gets it's ass handed to it like it's nothing, the Empire - despite having come into conflict with the Dominion before - is seemingly caught off guard by this completely predictable invasion, and even after destroying the entire Aldmeri invasion force... they still surrender? What? What is that? They basically won, a Pyrrhic victory sure, but still a victory. The most logical position to take at this point would be a White Peace but apparently that was too logical for the Emperor. There was no reason to suspect that they had anything left to fight the Empire with, after all they invaded with a massive force that managed to go so far as to take the Imperial City - an impressive feat in and of itself. There's no legitimate way they could have had another army up their sleeves, for if they did they would have brought it up the moment the war stopped going in their favor. Not to mention the fact that the Thalmor solely employ the use of Altmer soldiers, thus leaving the entire populations of Valenwood and Elsweyr untouched by military service - putting them further at a disadvantage.

It's all just spoon-fed victory after spoon-fed victory. The Thalmor are like those entitled people who were born into wealth and then claim they earned it. It's an absolute travesty of writing. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Also, I personally think it'd be more accurate to compare them to the Klan rather than the Nazis. The former are more religious than the latter.

Implying the likeliness of a random prisoner being sent to Morrowind by the Emperor killing a literal freaking God is any more plausible.

You're taking a video game and its lore too seriously. Chill out.

[Strength and Order]

I agree with your assertion that they represent the Altmer, Altmeri culture, and the Summerset Isles accurately, but I respectfully disagree with the notion that the Thalmor - as a powerful faction - are completely forced.

First, there's the complete retcon of the Legions leaving the Provinces of the Empire to fend for themselves. I've always hated this because Chancellor Ocato himself straight up tells the Hero of Kvatch: "I'm sorry, I can't spare any Legions for the defense of Bruma as they're currently combating the Daedra in the other Provinces, but I wish you luck at any rate." Not in those exact words, but the message is still clear-cut. It's further reinforced by the fact Legion forces in Oblivion are reduced to little more than patrols and the Imperial Watch. With Skyrim they retconned it so they could break up the Empire easily and shoehorn House Redoran, the An-Xileel, and most importantly, the Thalmor, into power in their respective regions. It completely destroys Ocato's character too, where he was originally depicted as a mer who was loyal to the idea of the Empire. What's more it makes even less sense that he'd abandon his own home province like that.

But even if you ignore that blatant disregard for their own established lore, it still doesn't justify the Thalmor coming to power. Their whole rise to power in the Summerset Isles, for example, is incredibly flimsy and unrealistic. Here you have this fringe political group with no real support claiming they single-handedly ended the Oblivion Crisis, and nobody even bothers to ask "How"? They just all accept that these extremist nobodies saved Tamriel just because they said they did? I know the Altmer were shattered after the Daedra invasion, but for a people of reason that seems incredibly idiotic to just accept whatever some local nobodies say as the truth. This is my biggest problem with them: They claim responsibility for great things, but don't bother to explain how their responsible and everyone just accepts it.

This happens again with Elsweyr. Two giant moons suddenly disappear out of the sky for two years, driving the entire Khajiit race mad in the process, and then suddenly show up again. Let's just ignore the fact that this event is not only completely random and makes no sense, but is also never explained and everybody seems to have forgotten about it as it's not even mentioned anywhere or by anyone except in passing by in-game books. So here come the Thalmor, strolling along and proclaiming they restored the moons through "previously undiscovered magicks". Never mind the fact that's a completely shitty excuse to back up their claim - which they provided no real evidence of. The Khajiit, apparently having done too much skooma, just straight up accept this as fact and willingly surrender their sovereignty over to a bunch of people who literally think they're genetically superior to them. Because apparently everyone in Tamriel are gullible fools.

Even the acquisition of Valenwood is bullshit. They - somehow - gather enough to support to launch a coup, while also defeating the Imperial Legion without much of a fight in the process. Where exactly are the Blades in this scenario? Literally the greatest spy-bodyguards in Tamriel and they're being shown up by a bunch of fringe fundamentalists. This also goes for their coup in the Summerset Isles. Why, exactly, do the Blades suddenly suck at something they've been doing effectively for centuries all of a sudden? Absolutely mind-boggling.

That's another thing, the Blades. So, somehow a Thalmor ambassador strolls into the Imperial City with a cart full of Blade heads. Let's ignore the fact that there's no way you could smuggle a cart full of severed heads into the biggest city in Tamriel, especially when that city is the capital of a state you've repeatedly clashed with in the past. How exactly did they manage to hunt down and kill every single Blade in the Dominion? Is Jason Bourne a member of the Thalmor now? How is it they are besting the Blades at their own game so easily? And how did the Empire not notice all their Blades were suddenly dead? Do they not keep in contact with their own agents?

Finally, there's the Great War. So ignoring the unoriginal name, this upstart nation manages to beat back the Empire and nearly destroy it. Let's talk about the problems with this. First, the Empire has four Provinces at this point while the Dominion has about three. The Empire's provinces are not only bigger, but it is also home to the literal crossroads of Tamriel: Cyrodiil, which boasts not only a large population but a much more diverse one than the other Provinces. Let's also consider the fact that the Imperial City has long been the most important city in Tamriel since... just about forever. Overall, the Empire is bigger, has a larger population, and has a long history of military superiority via the Imperial Legion. Then comes this young, upstart isolationist power - which theoretically should be hated by anyone who isn't an elf and even many elves as well - that manages to kick the ass of the most powerful fighting force in Tamrielic history like it's nothing. That's not even taking into consideration the fact that the Empire was still homed to all three of the great warrior races of Tamriel, giving them a distinct edge in combat. The Legion gets it's ass handed to it like it's nothing, the Empire - despite having come into conflict with the Dominion before - is seemingly caught off guard by this completely predictable invasion, and even after destroying the entire Aldmeri invasion force... they still surrender? What? What is that? They basically won, a Pyrrhic victory sure, but still a victory. The most logical position to take at this point would be a White Peace but apparently that was too logical for the Emperor. There was no reason to suspect that they had anything left to fight the Empire with, after all they invaded with a massive force that managed to go so far as to take the Imperial City - an impressive feat in and of itself. There's no legitimate way they could have had another army up their sleeves, for if they did they would have brought it up the moment the war stopped going in their favor. Not to mention the fact that the Thalmor solely employ the use of Altmer soldiers, thus leaving the entire populations of Valenwood and Elsweyr untouched by military service - putting them further at a disadvantage.

It's all just spoon-fed victory after spoon-fed victory. The Thalmor are like those entitled people who were born into wealth and then claim they earned it. It's an absolute travesty of writing. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Also, I personally think it'd be more accurate to compare them to the Klan rather than the Nazis. The former are more religious than the latter.

Implying the likeliness of a random prisoner being sent to Morrowind by the Emperor killing a literal freaking God is any more plausible.

You're taking a video game and its lore too seriously. Chill out.

Except that 'random prisoner' wasn't a random prisoner at all, and was in fact the prophesied reincarnation of an ancient war hero who was literally right where they were supposed to be in order to fulfill the destiny that had been laid out for them since before they were even born. Not to mention that they were deliberately sent where they were supposed to be by the Emperor because he was of the scholarly sort, and predicted that this exact prisoner was a match for the prophecy.

All of this was explained, in detail, and designed to be comprehensible and logical. Believability is a necessity for all forms of writing, even in fiction, because a story that makes no sense is a bad story. Writing, as an art form, has certain standards that should be met. It doesn't matter if you're writing a book, a news article, a movie script, or the plot of a video game - writing is still writing and writing has standards.

Morrowind and Oblivion met those standards more often than not, whereas Skyrim was noticeably lacking in many of them. This has been a trend with Bethesda since Fallout 3, as their writing has continuously gotten worse with every new Elder Scrolls and Fallout game they release. It's why I have low hopes for any further installments in either franchise. Bethesda has been focusing more on gameplay than writing, and it shows. One can easily see the lower qualities and standards upheld by the writers for Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4 when compared to other games in their respective franchises. This isn't something that should be tolerated, either, because it will only get worse if it is. Eventually it will get so bad that even great gameplay won't be enough to make their games fun anymore.

[Danceria]

Corim Riverwind

Race: Bosmer (That be fancy talk for Wood Elf)
Gender/Sex: Male
Appearance:Ever have one of those days where your search for “male bosmer” either come up with blatantly female characters, Legolas Expies, or just plain shirtless? This is one of those times.
Class: A very archer-y flavored acrobat. Basically an elf-y Robin Hood.
Equipment: Bows and Arrows
Skills: Improvising and a silver tongue, archery and free climbing, stubborn. He is quick on the eye and quicker on the draw.
Weaknesses: Political intrigue, magic, close quarters combat, stubborn.
Bio: Born in Valenwood, decided to go outside. Found girls and adventure. Life’s great
RP Sample: I don’t always RP, but when I do...


Personality: Brash and headstrong, with a conviction he has come out of Valenwood to take Nirn on by storm. Incessantly optimistic, annoyingly headstrong, and easily swayed by strong emotions.
Likes:
Dislikes: Altmer, or just anyone who’s a stuck up snob or nepotism in general. Overly complex plans, excessive luxury.
(feel free to add something else to this list yourself!)

[The Intergalactic Russian Empire]

So close to finishing my app, but for the life of me I can't find a single art piece of a 50-something year old noblewoman (to serve as an image of Augustus' wife, Seraphina)

[Free States of Agnosicstan]

Implying the likeliness of a random prisoner being sent to Morrowind by the Emperor killing a literal freaking God is any more plausible.

You're taking a video game and its lore too seriously. Chill out.

Except that 'random prisoner' wasn't a random prisoner at all, and was in fact the prophesied reincarnation of an ancient war hero who was literally right where they were supposed to be in order to fulfill the destiny that had been laid out for them since before they were even born. Not to mention that they were deliberately sent where they were supposed to be by the Emperor because he was of the scholarly sort, and predicted that this exact prisoner was a match for the prophecy.

All of this was explained, in detail, and designed to be comprehensible and logical. Believability is a necessity for all forms of writing, even in fiction, because a story that makes no sense is a bad story. Writing, as an art form, has certain standards that should be met. It doesn't matter if you're writing a book, a news article, a movie script, or the plot of a video game - writing is still writing and writing has standards.

Morrowind and Oblivion met those standards more often than not, whereas Skyrim was noticeably lacking in many of them. This has been a trend with Bethesda since Fallout 3, as their writing has continuously gotten worse with every new Elder Scrolls and Fallout game they release. It's why I have low hopes for any further installments in either franchise. Bethesda has been focusing more on gameplay than writing, and it shows. One can easily see the lower qualities and standards upheld by the writers for Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4 when compared to other games in their respective franchises. This isn't something that should be tolerated, either, because it will only get worse if it is. Eventually it will get so bad that even great gameplay won't be enough to make their games fun anymore.

Ah. I see now.

"Old Bethesda is the only good Bethesda. anything new they write is bad."

Aight, cool. Chill out. Seriously. You're ranting to someone who does not care and has never cared. because they're video games and we have no say in how they're made, so complaining about them is just yelling angry words at a tornado to make it go away.

[Zanera]

Stirring. Rousing, even. I want to become the leader of the Fighters Guild now, actually.

[The Blazing Aura]

I disagree wholeheartedly.

The Altmer are a highly isolationist and xenophobic people who live on an island paradise that they've defended from invaders that tried to completely wipe out their entire race for thousands of years, every year again and again, until Tiber Septim arrives. He arrives, commits some casual genocide, throws part of their people into a timeless war against a reality-denying god machine, and forces them to bow to his rule. They are then forced to accept him as a god, and when they finally, for once, need the Empire during the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire bails out and leaves Summerset to get slaughtered - again. The rise of the Thalmor as a reactionary movement to this makes more than sense, and the fact that they throw out the severely weakened Empire that had already mostly left the place to defend Cyrodiil isn't strange at all.

Valenwood, similarly, is a very fractured place and always has been - dissent was brewing even before the Oblivion Crisis as a result of the Camoran Usurper, still, and even more so following the Crisis. It is more than reasonable that skilled manipulators could utilize this to their own end - the Aldmeri Dominion already existed before, and it could well be used as a type of rallying cry for those dissatisfied with the Empire in Valenwood.

It's certainly true that the Thalmor have won a lot - namely, their entire rise to power. Their success in the Great War is simply because they excel at one thing over the Empire especially - intelligence gathering and other assorted covert actions. The Empire was using a glorified order of dragon hunters from Akavir as spies. The Thalmor don't and instead employ far more successful methods, evidently. They do suffer setbacks - see them getting slaughtered to the last Mer at the Battle of Red Ring, or being pushed from Hammerfell entirely. We know that they regularly conduct purges of dissidents within their own lands, implying that things within their own borders certainly aren't all that great for them either - they control the informationflow coming from it, however, and as such we don't hear about it.

The depiction of the Thalmor in Skyrim certainly isn't great - they're pretty much not!nazis there, and it sucks. But their rise to power and motivations (ie, the unmaking of linear time so as to restore the Altmer to their original, divine state) are not shoehorned at all - it is, in fact, about as Altmer as it can be. They're the Altmeri culture and religious beliefs molded in a reactionary form and taken to an extreme.

I agree with your assertion that they represent the Altmer, Altmeri culture, and the Summerset Isles accurately, but I respectfully disagree with the notion that the Thalmor - as a powerful faction - are completely forced.

First, there's the complete retcon of the Legions leaving the Provinces of the Empire to fend for themselves. I've always hated this because Chancellor Ocato himself straight up tells the Hero of Kvatch: "I'm sorry, I can't spare any Legions for the defense of Bruma as they're currently combating the Daedra in the other Provinces, but I wish you luck at any rate." Not in those exact words, but the message is still clear-cut. It's further reinforced by the fact Legion forces in Oblivion are reduced to little more than patrols and the Imperial Watch. With Skyrim they retconned it so they could break up the Empire easily and shoehorn House Redoran, the An-Xileel, and most importantly, the Thalmor, into power in their respective regions. It completely destroys Ocato's character too, where he was originally depicted as a mer who was loyal to the idea of the Empire. What's more it makes even less sense that he'd abandon his own home province like that.

But even if you ignore that blatant disregard for their own established lore, it still doesn't justify the Thalmor coming to power. Their whole rise to power in the Summerset Isles, for example, is incredibly flimsy and unrealistic. Here you have this fringe political group with no real support claiming they single-handedly ended the Oblivion Crisis, and nobody even bothers to ask "How"? They just all accept that these extremist nobodies saved Tamriel just because they said they did? I know the Altmer were shattered after the Daedra invasion, but for a people of reason that seems incredibly idiotic to just accept whatever some local nobodies say as the truth. This is my biggest problem with them: They claim responsibility for great things, but don't bother to explain how their responsible and everyone just accepts it.

This happens again with Elsweyr. Two giant moons suddenly disappear out of the sky for two years, driving the entire Khajiit race mad in the process, and then suddenly show up again. Let's just ignore the fact that this event is not only completely random and makes no sense, but is also never explained and everybody seems to have forgotten about it as it's not even mentioned anywhere or by anyone except in passing by in-game books. So here come the Thalmor, strolling along and proclaiming they restored the moons through "previously undiscovered magicks". Never mind the fact that's a completely shitty excuse to back up their claim - which they provided no real evidence of. The Khajiit, apparently having done too much skooma, just straight up accept this as fact and willingly surrender their sovereignty over to a bunch of people who literally think they're genetically superior to them. Because apparently everyone in Tamriel are gullible fools.

Even the acquisition of Valenwood is bullshit. They - somehow - gather enough to support to launch a coup, while also defeating the Imperial Legion without much of a fight in the process. Where exactly are the Blades in this scenario? Literally the greatest spy-bodyguards in Tamriel and they're being shown up by a bunch of fringe fundamentalists. This also goes for their coup in the Summerset Isles. Why, exactly, do the Blades suddenly suck at something they've been doing effectively for centuries all of a sudden? Absolutely mind-boggling.

That's another thing, the Blades. So, somehow a Thalmor ambassador strolls into the Imperial City with a cart full of Blade heads. Let's ignore the fact that there's no way you could smuggle a cart full of severed heads into the biggest city in Tamriel, especially when that city is the capital of a state you've repeatedly clashed with in the past. How exactly did they manage to hunt down and kill every single Blade in the Dominion? Is Jason Bourne a member of the Thalmor now? How is it they are besting the Blades at their own game so easily? And how did the Empire not notice all their Blades were suddenly dead? Do they not keep in contact with their own agents?

Finally, there's the Great War. So ignoring the unoriginal name, this upstart nation manages to beat back the Empire and nearly destroy it. Let's talk about the problems with this. First, the Empire has four Provinces at this point while the Dominion has about three. The Empire's provinces are not only bigger, but it is also home to the literal crossroads of Tamriel: Cyrodiil, which boasts not only a large population but a much more diverse one than the other Provinces. Let's also consider the fact that the Imperial City has long been the most important city in Tamriel since... just about forever. Overall, the Empire is bigger, has a larger population, and has a long history of military superiority via the Imperial Legion. Then comes this young, upstart isolationist power - which theoretically should be hated by anyone who isn't an elf and even many elves as well - that manages to kick the ass of the most powerful fighting force in Tamrielic history like it's nothing. That's not even taking into consideration the fact that the Empire was still homed to all three of the great warrior races of Tamriel, giving them a distinct edge in combat. The Legion gets it's ass handed to it like it's nothing, the Empire - despite having come into conflict with the Dominion before - is seemingly caught off guard by this completely predictable invasion, and even after destroying the entire Aldmeri invasion force... they still surrender? What? What is that? They basically won, a Pyrrhic victory sure, but still a victory. The most logical position to take at this point would be a White Peace but apparently that was too logical for the Emperor. There was no reason to suspect that they had anything left to fight the Empire with, after all they invaded with a massive force that managed to go so far as to take the Imperial City - an impressive feat in and of itself. There's no legitimate way they could have had another army up their sleeves, for if they did they would have brought it up the moment the war stopped going in their favor. Not to mention the fact that the Thalmor solely employ the use of Altmer soldiers, thus leaving the entire populations of Valenwood and Elsweyr untouched by military service - putting them further at a disadvantage.

It's all just spoon-fed victory after spoon-fed victory. The Thalmor are like those entitled people who were born into wealth and then claim they earned it. It's an absolute travesty of writing. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Also, I personally think it'd be more accurate to compare them to the Klan rather than the Nazis. The former are more religious than the latter.

Let's talk tactics, and about a certain German fringe group from the 1920's that inexplicably and quickly rose to power. Sound Familiar? The Wehrmarcht were a *very* effective fighting force that specialised in Blitzkrieg, lighting warfare, that let them smash through the armies of much bigger armies, and defeat and conquer countries that on paper they had no business defeating. The Thalmor used the same tactics (minus the tanks of course), which allowed them to break through the Imperial Legions with speed and power that no one was expecting, why would they, they're just meant to be an Altmeri fringe group, right? But no, they were three provinces worth of soldiers, including potentially some of the best mages and archers in Tamriel full stop. Size doesn't always mean you'll win, there are plenty of times throughout history that have shown that a smaller force can defeat a bigger one, a small army can topple a might empire who, as you've said, has four provinces it's meant to be looking after, and while the Legion may be an effective fighting force, stealth and surprise and trickery can beat that kind of force into submission. It's only once the Thalmor's Blitzkrieg runs out of momentum that they start to lose, when counter attacks against them force them on the back foot.

Finally, noting on how the Thalmor could of taken power, they didn't need to convince every one in all of the Summerset Isles, Valenwood AND Elsweyr, they just had to convince those in power, or perhaps the majority of the nation. Politicans have being doing that for time immemorial, Trump didn't have to convince every american that he should be president, he just had to convince the majority, the Conservatives and UKIP didn't have to convince very Brit that Brexit was a good idea, just the majority. Once they have the majority, and they can get it thanks to those spies and agents who could silence anyone speaking out openly against them, then they can control the province.

[Imperialisium]

Also the Empire was 200 odd years in decline at that point. It’s like comparing the Western Roman Empire under Honorius to the revitalized East under Justinian. I.E. the West still won impressive victories that mattered (Tamrielic Empire and Battle of Red Ring and Hammerfell campaign) but it didn’t have the resources to wage offensive warfare. The Imperial Legion like it’s IRL Roman counter parts had by then become a defensive army rather than a continent conquering juggernaut. So in retrospect the Dominion suffered serious defeats but the Empire was unable to actually invade the Dominion either. Blades issue aside which is admittedly wonkery. Titus Mede II wisely chose to metaphorically leave the poker game before his streak ran out and the Dominion could mobilize itself further in a manner he could not mobilize his own provinces anymore.

[Strength and Order]

Except that 'random prisoner' wasn't a random prisoner at all, and was in fact the prophesied reincarnation of an ancient war hero who was literally right where they were supposed to be in order to fulfill the destiny that had been laid out for them since before they were even born. Not to mention that they were deliberately sent where they were supposed to be by the Emperor because he was of the scholarly sort, and predicted that this exact prisoner was a match for the prophecy.

All of this was explained, in detail, and designed to be comprehensible and logical. Believability is a necessity for all forms of writing, even in fiction, because a story that makes no sense is a bad story. Writing, as an art form, has certain standards that should be met. It doesn't matter if you're writing a book, a news article, a movie script, or the plot of a video game - writing is still writing and writing has standards.

Morrowind and Oblivion met those standards more often than not, whereas Skyrim was noticeably lacking in many of them. This has been a trend with Bethesda since Fallout 3, as their writing has continuously gotten worse with every new Elder Scrolls and Fallout game they release. It's why I have low hopes for any further installments in either franchise. Bethesda has been focusing more on gameplay than writing, and it shows. One can easily see the lower qualities and standards upheld by the writers for Fallout 3, Skyrim, and Fallout 4 when compared to other games in their respective franchises. This isn't something that should be tolerated, either, because it will only get worse if it is. Eventually it will get so bad that even great gameplay won't be enough to make their games fun anymore.

Ah. I see now.

"Old Bethesda is the only good Bethesda. anything new they write is bad."

Aight, cool. Chill out. Seriously. You're ranting to someone who does not care and has never cared. because they're video games and we have no say in how they're made, so complaining about them is just yelling angry words at a tornado to make it go away.

Stop telling me to "chill out", I'm not angry. I'm debating. If you don't care, then why bother arguing in the first place? If you don't care what I have to say about this topic then don't bother to engage me on it. You can't just start arguing with somebody then back out and say "I don't care!", that's not how it works. If you don't care, then just don't bother.

And it's not about "Old Bethesda", it's about a noticeable decline in writing quality over time. The new stuff they write IS bad, not because it's new but because it's just plain bad. Bethesda just has bad writers. New Vegas, a game which was very intelligently written, proved this after the poorly written Fallout 3. This is because it was handled by different writers who worked for Obsidian, rather than directly under Bethesda like Fallout 3 & Fallout 4. This is because the team that worked on New Vegas was more interested in making a game than making a product, and despite numerous obstacles were still able to release it within a short time frame of development. Even despite a rocky release due to numerous bugs attributed to the out-dated engine, it still turned out to be one of the best games of the year despite stability issues - again due to the faulty engine.

Fallout 3 and 4 could have been like New Vegas, but Bethesda doesn't care about quality anymore. They just want to make games that make money. If they would start caring about the games they made again there would be a distinct improvement in their quality. If TES6 turns out to break the mold, I will happily admit it. I don't care if it's new, I care if it's good. Skyrim was fun, but it wasn't smart, and in my opinion a game should be both in order to be good.

I will admit that not all of Skyrim was bad, but the only intelligently written parts of the game were in the Dawnguard and Dragonborn DLCs - of which both exceeded the writing quality of their base game. If they had put as much effort into the base game as they did in Dawnguard and Dragonborn, Skyrim would have been a tremendous game. These DLCs prove that Bethesda can still write good stories, they just won't.

I agree with your assertion that they represent the Altmer, Altmeri culture, and the Summerset Isles accurately, but I respectfully disagree with the notion that the Thalmor - as a powerful faction - are completely forced.

First, there's the complete retcon of the Legions leaving the Provinces of the Empire to fend for themselves. I've always hated this because Chancellor Ocato himself straight up tells the Hero of Kvatch: "I'm sorry, I can't spare any Legions for the defense of Bruma as they're currently combating the Daedra in the other Provinces, but I wish you luck at any rate." Not in those exact words, but the message is still clear-cut. It's further reinforced by the fact Legion forces in Oblivion are reduced to little more than patrols and the Imperial Watch. With Skyrim they retconned it so they could break up the Empire easily and shoehorn House Redoran, the An-Xileel, and most importantly, the Thalmor, into power in their respective regions. It completely destroys Ocato's character too, where he was originally depicted as a mer who was loyal to the idea of the Empire. What's more it makes even less sense that he'd abandon his own home province like that.

But even if you ignore that blatant disregard for their own established lore, it still doesn't justify the Thalmor coming to power. Their whole rise to power in the Summerset Isles, for example, is incredibly flimsy and unrealistic. Here you have this fringe political group with no real support claiming they single-handedly ended the Oblivion Crisis, and nobody even bothers to ask "How"? They just all accept that these extremist nobodies saved Tamriel just because they said they did? I know the Altmer were shattered after the Daedra invasion, but for a people of reason that seems incredibly idiotic to just accept whatever some local nobodies say as the truth. This is my biggest problem with them: They claim responsibility for great things, but don't bother to explain how their responsible and everyone just accepts it.

This happens again with Elsweyr. Two giant moons suddenly disappear out of the sky for two years, driving the entire Khajiit race mad in the process, and then suddenly show up again. Let's just ignore the fact that this event is not only completely random and makes no sense, but is also never explained and everybody seems to have forgotten about it as it's not even mentioned anywhere or by anyone except in passing by in-game books. So here come the Thalmor, strolling along and proclaiming they restored the moons through "previously undiscovered magicks". Never mind the fact that's a completely shitty excuse to back up their claim - which they provided no real evidence of. The Khajiit, apparently having done too much skooma, just straight up accept this as fact and willingly surrender their sovereignty over to a bunch of people who literally think they're genetically superior to them. Because apparently everyone in Tamriel are gullible fools.

Even the acquisition of Valenwood is bullshit. They - somehow - gather enough to support to launch a coup, while also defeating the Imperial Legion without much of a fight in the process. Where exactly are the Blades in this scenario? Literally the greatest spy-bodyguards in Tamriel and they're being shown up by a bunch of fringe fundamentalists. This also goes for their coup in the Summerset Isles. Why, exactly, do the Blades suddenly suck at something they've been doing effectively for centuries all of a sudden? Absolutely mind-boggling.

That's another thing, the Blades. So, somehow a Thalmor ambassador strolls into the Imperial City with a cart full of Blade heads. Let's ignore the fact that there's no way you could smuggle a cart full of severed heads into the biggest city in Tamriel, especially when that city is the capital of a state you've repeatedly clashed with in the past. How exactly did they manage to hunt down and kill every single Blade in the Dominion? Is Jason Bourne a member of the Thalmor now? How is it they are besting the Blades at their own game so easily? And how did the Empire not notice all their Blades were suddenly dead? Do they not keep in contact with their own agents?

Finally, there's the Great War. So ignoring the unoriginal name, this upstart nation manages to beat back the Empire and nearly destroy it. Let's talk about the problems with this. First, the Empire has four Provinces at this point while the Dominion has about three. The Empire's provinces are not only bigger, but it is also home to the literal crossroads of Tamriel: Cyrodiil, which boasts not only a large population but a much more diverse one than the other Provinces. Let's also consider the fact that the Imperial City has long been the most important city in Tamriel since... just about forever. Overall, the Empire is bigger, has a larger population, and has a long history of military superiority via the Imperial Legion. Then comes this young, upstart isolationist power - which theoretically should be hated by anyone who isn't an elf and even many elves as well - that manages to kick the ass of the most powerful fighting force in Tamrielic history like it's nothing. That's not even taking into consideration the fact that the Empire was still homed to all three of the great warrior races of Tamriel, giving them a distinct edge in combat. The Legion gets it's ass handed to it like it's nothing, the Empire - despite having come into conflict with the Dominion before - is seemingly caught off guard by this completely predictable invasion, and even after destroying the entire Aldmeri invasion force... they still surrender? What? What is that? They basically won, a Pyrrhic victory sure, but still a victory. The most logical position to take at this point would be a White Peace but apparently that was too logical for the Emperor. There was no reason to suspect that they had anything left to fight the Empire with, after all they invaded with a massive force that managed to go so far as to take the Imperial City - an impressive feat in and of itself. There's no legitimate way they could have had another army up their sleeves, for if they did they would have brought it up the moment the war stopped going in their favor. Not to mention the fact that the Thalmor solely employ the use of Altmer soldiers, thus leaving the entire populations of Valenwood and Elsweyr untouched by military service - putting them further at a disadvantage.

It's all just spoon-fed victory after spoon-fed victory. The Thalmor are like those entitled people who were born into wealth and then claim they earned it. It's an absolute travesty of writing. I'm sorry, but it's true.

Also, I personally think it'd be more accurate to compare them to the Klan rather than the Nazis. The former are more religious than the latter.

Let's talk tactics, and about a certain German fringe group from the 1920's that inexplicably and quickly rose to power. Sound Familiar? The Wehrmarcht were a *very* effective fighting force that specialised in Blitzkrieg, lighting warfare, that let them smash through the armies of much bigger armies, and defeat and conquer countries that on paper they had no business defeating. The Thalmor used the same tactics (minus the tanks of course), which allowed them to break through the Imperial Legions with speed and power that no one was expecting, why would they, they're just meant to be an Altmeri fringe group, right? But no, they were three provinces worth of soldiers, including potentially some of the best mages and archers in Tamriel full stop. Size doesn't always mean you'll win, there are plenty of times throughout history that have shown that a smaller force can defeat a bigger one, a small army can topple a might empire who, as you've said, has four provinces it's meant to be looking after, and while the Legion may be an effective fighting force, stealth and surprise and trickery can beat that kind of force into submission. It's only once the Thalmor's Blitzkrieg runs out of momentum that they start to lose, when counter attacks against them force them on the back foot.

Finally, noting on how the Thalmor could of taken power, they didn't need to convince every one in all of the Summerset Isles, Valenwood AND Elsweyr, they just had to convince those in power, or perhaps the majority of the nation. Politicans have being doing that for time immemorial, Trump didn't have to convince every american that he should be president, he just had to convince the majority, the Conservatives and UKIP didn't have to convince very Brit that Brexit was a good idea, just the majority. Once they have the majority, and they can get it thanks to those spies and agents who could silence anyone speaking out openly against them, then they can control the province.

Except this argument ignores several of my established points, making me wonder how much of my post you actually read. Regardless, allow me to reiterate:

The Nazis rose to power over a period of two decades, during which they appealed to the common desire of the German citizen to restore pride in their country. The Thalmor rose to power practically overnight by claiming they ended a continent-wide tragedy without providing any evidence of their claim. Not the same thing. The Nazis had policies, arguments, and ideas. The Thalmor had nothing but empty boasts of greatness. To compare the two is actually insulting to the Nazis, because if they had been a fictional group they would have been a well-written one. The only people who groups like the Thalmor would appeal to IRL would be the uneducated who don't know any better and just jump on board bandwagons they like. Last I checked, the Altmer are supposed to be an intelligent race.

The Blitzkrieg argument doesn't really work, either. What made the Blitzkrieg effective was the utilization of infantry, armor, and air power to overrun enemy forces. Air power and armor don't exist in the Elder Scrolls, leaving armies composed entirely of cavalry and infantry. These two things alone don't a Blitzkrieg make, otherwise the Blitzkrieg would have been invented earlier. Armor and cavalry aren't comparable, the latter is extremely vulnerable and less efficient than the former with a totally different purpose and the existence of air power is essential for the Blitzkrieg to work, as it's just as vital as armor and infantry in the process. Furthermore, we are never given any evidence that the Thalmor ever used Bosmer or Khajiit soldiers - rather, the opposite is true: Their forces seem entirely composed of Altmer, solely. So it's not "three provinces worth" of manpower, either.

I won't comment on the UKIP as I'm not familiar with the inner-workings of the British government, but the Trump statement is outright false. Trump did not convince even half of Americans to support him. His total support was a meager 30% of the population, meaning he lost the popular vote. This is why his election was controversial, not because most Americans wanted him but because most Americans didn't. The U.S. does not elect presidents by popular vote, that's just for show. The president is chosen by the Electoral College, which at the time was controlled almost entirely by the Republican Party - hence Trump's election. It's a very flawed and corrupt system. However, democracy is far different from the political systems of Tamriel and not even remotely comparable. Tamriel practices feudalism, as is often the case in medieval fantasy, and thus things work differently than a republican democracy. The Thalmor seized power through violence - as is typical of such a system - and thus were as much subject to violence as they practiced. And yet, no one opposed them enough to outright war with them. Not even the Empire. It's absurd that so many people were simply blinded by false claims of greatness with nothing to back them up, and the fact that's all it took. The Nazis, by comparison, didn't just make baseless claims with no evidence - they used propaganda, charisma, and ideological arguments founded in philosophical reasoning and what was then considered common knowledge. These were educated people the Nazis were recruiting, not dumb peasants, and from what I've read the Altmer aren't supposed to be dumb peasants either.

And again, how did they manage to get all this power without the Blades intervening?

Also the Empire was 200 odd years in decline at that point. It’s like comparing the Western Roman Empire under Honorius to the revitalized East under Justinian. I.E. the West still won impressive victories that mattered (Tamrielic Empire and Battle of Red Ring and Hammerfell campaign) but it didn’t have the resources to wage offensive warfare. The Imperial Legion like it’s IRL Roman counter parts had by then become a defensive army rather than a continent conquering juggernaut. So in retrospect the Dominion suffered serious defeats but the Empire was unable to actually invade the Dominion either. Blades issue aside which is admittedly wonkery. Titus Mede II wisely chose to metaphorically leave the poker game before his streak ran out and the Dominion could mobilize itself further in a manner he could not mobilize his own provinces anymore.

But why was the Empire so unprepared to deal with a militantly hostile power? It makes no sense. Generally when you border a country that has recently been engaging in militant expansionism at your own expense, it'd be wise to start preparing for an inevitable war with them.

[Imperialisium]

They where prepared. The Dominions attack was a surprise assault. In the lore it even states that the Dominion outmaneuvered the Legion garrisons and managed to penetrate deep into Cyrodiil before anyone could move to intercept.

If we go by the fact that Tamriel is a continent and we use realistic travel speeds. The Dominion could be one to two weeks march into Cyrodiil before any sizable Imperial Army could be mustered to throw them back. Now the Empire did resist this surprise attack. But the forces immediately available couldn’t withstand the Aldmeri Dominions massed surprise assault along an axis it totally didn’t suspect the invasion from.

You cannot be prepared everywhere. That’s a fact of war. The Aldmeri Dominion managed to get the element of surprise on an Empire that was economically and militarily stagnant or decaying depending on where you are in Tamriel.

[Free States of Agnosicstan]

Guys. please. please stop filling the OOC with this. please.

kindly: https://youtu.be/RKNFkGzA5vs

[Imperialisium]

Back to the RP

The people Einar and Valeria are running into on the Gold Road. Do you two have any specific RP plans?

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

Hell, the Dominion even surprised themselves by how succesful they managed to be - the attack in Cyrodiil was only ever intended as both a distraction and cover for their army marching into Hammerfell. I definitely agree with your point on Ocato, though - it's essentially a retcon and Bethesda does seem to love those. I'd primarily attribute it to Ocato not having everything under control, with conflicting orders being sent to the Legions and the likes. Not the best explanation there is, but it'll have to do.

The Thalmor managed to appeal to a lot of Altmer because they embody precisely what a lot of Altmer, still begrudging Tiber's conquest, wanted to return to - the past of their people, to do away with the (perceived) Imperial oppression. We know that the Thalmor that rose to power were powerful mages, all, and that they were the organisation that, in the dubious absence of the Legion, took it upon themselves to fight back against the Daedra. We know that the Crisis ended because of Martin's sacrifice. Back in Summerset? The powerful mages that were the only ones managing a proper fight back against the Daedra claimed they drove them back - it's not a strange thing to believe to be correct, and combined with the events of the time, and their very, very Altmeri beliefs are something that definitely would appeal to the masses. To them, these were their saviours, who not only saved them from the Daedra, but also promised to go back to older, better days, when their lands and culture weren't being systematically destroyed by an Empire of Man. In Valenwood, they didn't convince the entire population - Valenwood itself is highly divided, and they simply assisted the groups that were in favor of them over the Empire to topple the local government that was weakened already by both the Camoran Usurper, and the Oblivion Crisis. With Elsweyr, it's a hearkening back to the Aldmeri Dominion days - Elsweyr is still semi-autonomous and only a client state, not a full part of the Dominion.

We know that there's dissent within Summerset and Valenwood. Outside of those regions, however? Nobody hears about it. The Thalmor control most of the information that flows from their lands.

Re: the Blades. The Blades were devastated following the Oblivion Crisis. The Emperor was dead, they were unsure what to do, and so forth. In Morrowind, Caius already seemed to be aware of the coming of the Oblivion Crisis. There was nothing they did to stop it, or nothing that they managed to do to stop it. The Thalmor simply hunted down and rooted out the spy network of the Blades bit by bit - every agent has a connection with his organisation somehow, so if you get one, he can lead you to the next, and that one to another, and so forth. The ambassador who traveled to the Imperial City with the ultimatum simply brought all of the acquired heads with him - they didn't have to be smuggled in. We also know, from the two novels that were released, that the Blades, post Oblivion Crisis, were far from as grand as they used to be, and certainly not as effective as spies as the newly formed Penitus Oculatus - who very much struggled getting any sort of foothold in Dominion lands.

I'd love to give a very in-depth reply, since I still think the Thalmor rise to power and the way they've gone about things really does work - Imps already gave the example of the Empire in decline, for one.

HOWEVER

I do agree that it might be a good idea to switch topics - although I understand that after my own little contribution now, it may seem like I'm trying to get the last word in (I'm not!). The discussion can always be moved towards the Elder Scrolls discussion thread in the A&F section of the forums.

@Imps, I think Velyna was planning on tagging along for a bit, but I'm not too sure on that - we'll have to wait for Kai to tell us!