1850: Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC-OPEN]

[The Traansval]

Well, seeing as how there's probably not going to be a Napoleonic France or a Hapsburg Austria, it's time to delve into some ancient Dutch history and start from the bottom.

If you want to go way back, the Frisians or Frisii as the Romans called them would be a good start. The Frisian-Frankish Wars could work too, since that would lead to reign of the Hollandic Counts and the brief "Frisian Freedom" under the nominal authority of the HRE.

Thats what i'm thinking, but its an uphill battle. The occupation by the Hapsburgs really united the various lords and dukes of the Netherlands. But yeah, the Frisians (The Frisii are a whole different group) are going to be the start off point for my history.

[Tracian Empire]

Reservation

Nation Name: Iberian Confederation
Territory: All of Iberia, Madeira Islands, Azores, Coast of Angola, st helena, ascension islands, Falklands Islands, Sandwich Islands, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay.
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting reservations.

Most of the claims are accepted, the OP board will be consulted in terms of South American claims.

[Plzen]

The Prussians are my smallest worry as they virtually don't exist anymore.

Speaking of the pot of minorities within the Livonian territory though... and the Polish minority...

Hehehehehehehehe

Although we have significant problems with minorities ourselves. Germans in Holsten and Javans in the colonies.

-snip-

I thought we were otherwise agreed that the Finland Wars were to be 16th century, and not the 17th?

Otherwise, interesting to see that difficulties of reinforcement is one of the large weaknesses of the Teuton military. Scandinavia will then have an advantage in dragging the war just on and on and on, I suppose, considering that we're in excellent position to intercept your maritime trade as well.

[The Traansval]

Hey was my reservation for the Dutch accepted?

[Tracian Empire]

Reservations list and map updated. Sorry for being unable to review any apps today - New Year and me working on my own app has taken most of my time. I also have to apologize beforehand for any possible mistakes, caffeine can only help me so far xD

Regardless, apps will be reviewed tonight or tomorrow morning.

As for Poland, well, I think that it be fair for it to also have Silesia, but if the player's idea is that of a small Poland, it's alright.

[Tracian Empire]

I've also been toying around with colors, if you guys don't like it, we can discuss it.

[The Traansval]

I've also been toying around with colors, if you guys don't like it, we can discuss it.

I like my orange color, it fits the Dutch. But uh, i don't mean to nag but you forgot Dutch Suriname, Ceylon, and the Maldives on the map.

[Tracian Empire]

I've also been toying around with colors, if you guys don't like it, we can discuss it.

I like my orange color, it fits the Dutch. But uh, i don't mean to nag but you forgot Dutch Suriname, Ceylon, and the Maldives on the map.

Updated

[The Traansval]

I like my orange color, it fits the Dutch. But uh, i don't mean to nag but you forgot Dutch Suriname, Ceylon, and the Maldives on the map.

Updated

Danke

[Axis Asteroid]

I've also been toying around with colors, if you guys don't like it, we can discuss it.

Don’t want to sound picky, but I prefer the older color for the Vandals tbh.

[The Traansval]

I've also been toying around with colors, if you guys don't like it, we can discuss it.

Don’t want to sound picky, but I prefer the older color for the Vandals tbh.

Fourth Punic War when?

[Axis Asteroid]

Don’t want to sound picky, but I prefer the older color for the Vandals tbh.

Fourth Punic War when?

”Then, O my Tyrians, besiege with hate his progeny and all his race to come: Make this your offering to my dust. No love, no pact must be between our peoples; No, but rise up from my bones, avenging spirit! Harry with fire and sword … Coast with coast in conflict, I implore, and sea with sea, and arms with arms: may they contend in war, themselves and all the children of their children!” (IV, 865-875)

Who knows? With the current tensions, the question might not be if, but when. Not any time soon I expect, but If Dido’s words prove true though, then inevitably sometime down the line.

[Sveya]

Just to hold my reservation in place and show I'm still interested. I will work on it properly tomorrow. I've also added the state of Ceara in Brazil to my claimed territory as a colonial holding.

Full Nation Name : Ríocht na hEireann / Kingdom of Ireland
Majority/Official Culture : Irish - Small pockets of Scottish and English settlers exist in the areas of Ulster, Leinster, and Meath, but these make up less than five percent of the total population.
Territorial Core : Ireland, State of Ceara in Brazil
Territorial Claim : States of Rio Grande do Norte, Paraiba, Pernambuco, Alagoas, and Sergipe
Capital City : Cill Chainnigh (Kilkenny)
Population : 9.6 million (9 million in Ireland proper, 600k in the South American holding - Population got from the 1841 census of Ireland and adjusted for the lack of the Great Famine or civil conflicts throughout the 17th/18th centuries. Population for Ceara got from the wiki demographic section and adjusted downwards.)

Government Type : Tanist Monarchy w/Parliament
Government Ideology/Policies : Militarism, Traditionalism,
Government Focus : Modernising industry and economy, expanding the colonial holdings
Head of State : Rí/King Brian O Conchobhar
Head of Government : Rí/King Brian O Conchobhar / Taoiseach Oisín MacBraidach
Government Description : From the top down, the nation is run by the monarch who rules with an executive council. The council has fifteen members in all, of which three are the King himself, the Tanaiste, and the Taoiseach, the rest are the heads of the various Departments of War, Trade, Finance, Foreign Affairs, Agriculture, Industry and so forth. As the monarchical system of Ireland is based on tanistry rather than hereditary succession, the heir to the throne is known as An Tánaiste (translates roughly to Deputy) and is selected by the reigning monarch within the first 24 months of his ascension. The Tánaiste must be selected from a pool of eligible candidates (2nd tier nobles or above who have been nominated by at least nine of their peers) and upon selection his role is largely ceremonial and is to serve mainly as an adviser to the reigning monarch.

The Taoiseach is the leader of parliament, and is an elected official of the common populace. There are 217 seats in parliament, known within the kingdom as Cóimeáil, which represent 37 constituent counties. All members of the Cóimeáil must be 'commoners' and elected by the people of their own home constituency, with suffrage extending to all citizens over the age of twenty. Political parties have been outlawed within the kingdom (as of 1792) meaning all members are technically independent representatives of their local communities. Ten members of the executive council must be members of the elected parliament (this number includes An Taoiseach), and the members appointed to Department positions must be mutually agreed by both the reigning monarch and An Taoiseach.

On lower levels, there are 37 counties in all within the Kingdom, and five provinces. Each county has its own council, with membership numbers varying from one to the other, but generally they consist of no fewer than three of the local aristocracy and the remainder of common elected officials. These county councils handle local administration issues such as education, healthcare, infrastructure and more. The provincial councils are made up of members from the county councils, nominated by their peers, and do not hold much power nor do they meet very often. They may serve as a vessel for easy co-operation between relatively close county councils, but there have been calls for their abandonment in recent years.

Majority/State Religion : Roman Catholicism with small pockets of Protestant communities in Ulster, Leinster, and Meath
Religious Description : The island of Ireland has always been a predominantly Catholic, but with numerous efforts throughout the centuries from Britain to invade, conquer, and settle the isle, some areas where those descendent still remain have retained their Protestant faith. Tensions in and around these areas tends to flare up at times, which in the past has led to protests, riots, and even intermittent civil conflict.

Economic Ideologies : Capitalism w/Business Subsidisation and some protectionist measures.
Major Production : Foodstuffs and agricultural goods, textiles, light industry finished goods, luxury goods
Economic Description : The economy of the Kingdom remains largely agrarian, with the industry and manufacturing sector being severely limited by the lack of a major iron ore or coal deposit within the island. Peat largely makes up for the lack of coal however, and progress is being made in prospecting for valuable minerals in the South American colony. The Kingdom also has a world-famous textile industry, with many areas producing very high quality materials feeding into fashion scenes around the globe. Other noteworthy areas of the countries exports include whiskey, poitín, beers, salted meats and fish, timber, jewellery, instruments, and other traditional workshop goods.


Tech Group : European

Army Description : Because of its island location on the relative periphery of Europe, the Kingdom does not maintain a large standing force, just fifteen thousand active members at any one time, two to three thousand of which can be expected to be deployed in the overseas territory at any given time. There are strict entry requirements enforced for the Royal Army, with prospective recruits having to be of an adequate height as well as pass physical, medical, and educational tests before acceptance, ensuring a strong and capable force. With such a small active number, the equipment for them is up-to-date and in good nick, and their training quite thorough and complete. The reserve army, for which membership is mandatory upon draft selection (all males aged 18-35 are entered into the draft), numbers 325,000. Their equipment usually lags from five to ten years behind the main forces, and their training is not so complete, however they are drilled annually and can be expected to mobilise quite quickly.

With a strong equestrian culture throughout the country, though particularly in the south-east and midlands, the army can field a very respectable force of cavalry.
Army Weakness : The army lacks a strong and sizeable artillery corps, with a variety of pieces mainly being sourced from overseas. An inherent culture of nepotism means many officer positions are taken up by noblemen's sons and members of the aristocracy, many of whom are either incompetent or unsuitable for the job.
Naval Description : As an island Kingdom with overseas holdings, the navy is a very important branch of the Royal Gaelic Military, arguably more important than the army. The navy numbers some 20 rated ships, with a supporting cast of over three dozen more. Regular use and investment means the smaller, newer ships are very modern in build, and their crews well versed and trained. The navy also maintains a force of eight-hundred marines, which are kept to a high degree of battle-quality. The larger and more expensive ships of battle are slightly older and
Naval Weakness : An ageing fleet puts the Irish navy at a disadvantage, especially coming into the age of steam ships. The financial strain of replacing almost all of the larger battle suitable ships may be too much for the state to bear, plus the lack of a coal deposit will put the energy needs of the navy in foreign hands. And again, as with the army, rampant nepotism means many officer positions are staffed by men inadequate for the job.
Further Military Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

National Goals : To be recognised as a European power, expand the colonial holdings, and to emerge as a first rate nation in terms of technological and cultural prowess.
National Issues : Civil unrest between Gaelic nationals and Ulster-Scots/Anglo-Irish, conservative aristocracy resistant to a changing world, somewhat underdeveloped economy.
National Figures of Interest : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Are there any Mother Teresas or Moses that we need to know about?]]
National Ambition/Aspirations : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Not really a set objective, but rather the big picture that your nation is drawing towards]]
Rival: Britain, should they arise as a player, perhaps the Dutch for interest in South America, and perhaps the Scandinavians as naval contestants in the North Atlantic.

History : [[Can be in paragraph or bulletpoint timeline.]]
RP Sample: [[Either a link to a past post, or an example written right here.]]

#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

[Heidi Girl of the Alps]

Reservation

Nation Name: Iberian Confederation
Territory: All of Iberia, Madeira Islands, Azores, Coast of Angola, st helena, ascension islands, Falklands Islands, Sandwich Islands, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay.
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting reservations.

Most of the claims are accepted, the OP board will be consulted in terms of South American claims.

Let's make it easier for you guys then. Drop Argentina and Paraguay. Keep Uruguay and add Tristan de Cuhna (they are part of St. Helena).

[Tracian Empire]

Full Nation Name : 習王朝 - Great Xi, or the Xi Dynasty

Majority/Official Culture : Han Chinese

Territorial Core : On the map

Territorial Claim : Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Eastern Siberia, Assam, Formosa

Capital City : Nanjing

Population : Roughly 470 Million people

---

Government Type : Celestial Empire

Government Ideology/Policies : Chinese Expansionism

Government Focus : The preservation of the Mandate of Heaven is of upmost importance, with the military and economy taking a close second priority.

Head of State : Yazhu Emperor

Head of Government : Grand Chancellor Xiang Ji

Government Description : A Celestial Empire the same as all the others before it

---

Majority/State Religion : Neo-Confucianism

Religious Description : N/A

---

Economic Ideologies : Largely Laissez Faire with a few key nationalized industries

Major Production : Silk, Tea, Foodstuffs, Textiles, Raw Materials, Emerging Industry

Economic Description : Similar to the Ming's economic approach with a handful of state monopolies, otherwise the government takes a hands off approach.

---

Tech Group : Oriental

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Army Description : With a standing army of 20 infantry divisions and six cavalry divisions, the Chinese army has 390,000 professional soldiers. In reserve, the Chinese may call upon a further 80 infantry divisions and another six cavalry divisions. Armed with the cheap but reliable Hanyang 44, the entire mobilized Chinese military stands at 1.68 million soldiers, perhaps the largest in the world.

Army Weakness : As is typically the case with the Chinese military, an emphasis is often placed on quantity over quality. As such, the current army model is no different. While many officers both high and low advocate for the transition from quantity to a better quality army, the economic situation in China at present ensures this will not come to fruition for sometime.

Naval Description : A total of 108 ships comprise the Chinese navy, including many steam warships.

Naval Weakness : In comparison to its neighbors, the Chinese navy is smaller, in some cases more outdated, and oftentimes ill equipped.

Further Military Description :

---

National Goals : Get foreign investors, grow the Chinese Navy, Modernize the Army, Invigorate the Economy

National Issues : Lack of available capital, Stagnating economic trends, Severe drought, and foreign intervention all hold back the Chinese from achieving greatness

National Figures of Interest : N/A

National Ambition/Aspirations : Attain hegemony in Asia

Rival: Tsardom of Rusemaa

---

History :

Fall of the Song and Rise of the Jí'ān - 吉安 (1330 – 1523 AD)

In 1211 (2908, Yin Metal Sheep in the Chinese calendar) Genghis Khan and his horde ravaged Western Xia, and at the tail end of the looting an overzealous Mingghan commander mistook a Song town for a Xian one. The commander and his Mingghan looted the town and killed the local garrison. Only after the deed was done did the commander realize his mistake. When the Song learned of the Mongol attack, they broke off their alliance with Genghis Khan.

1213 (2910, Yin Water Chicken), Jin Emperor Wányán Yong survives, continuing to reign twenty more years instead. Ghengis Khan skirmishes briefly with the Song over Western Xia.

In 1214/15 (2911, Yang Wood Dog / 2912, Yin Wood Pig), the Jin didn't move their capital to Kaifeng, as they did in reality due to the Mongol threat. The Emperor Wanyan Yong tried to persuade the Southern Song into a temporary alliance to turn back Genghis Khan. Seeing the threat that Ghengis poses should the Jin fall, the Song agree to an uneasy alliance with the Jin. The combined forces of the Jin and Song decisively defeat the Mongols in the battle of Yinchuan. This defeat prevents the Mongols from threatening China for some time.

1235 (2932, Yin Wood Sheep), Wányán Yongjì died and was replaced by Wányán Shouxù.

In 1267 (2964, Yin Fire Rabbit), Mongols under Khan Khaishan harass Jin China. In a pyrrhic victory, the Jin forces push back the Mongols yet again. This battle weakens Jin for many years to come.

By 1306 (3003, Yang Fire Horse) the Song Chinese were insolvent and unable to raise enough funds to pay government officials and soldiers alike. As a result unrest grew. People felt that the emperor had lost the Mandate of Heaven. In the same year, a rebellion rose in Sichuan, and they become an independent kingdom.

By 1309 (3006, Yin Earth Chicken), all of South China was in unrest. The emperor was killed in the chaos. Jin China also used the opportunity to plunder and annex parts of the Yangtse area. A series of wars and revolts ravage southern China for some time.

In 1330 (3027, Yang Metal Horse), after the dust had settled, the so-called Four Kingdoms had formed in Sichuan, Guanxi, Shandong, and a final kingdom in Jiangxi based in the city of Ji’an

In 1355/56 (3052, Yin Wood Sheep / 3053, Yang Fire Monkey), the first Ji’an emperor (then, still considered one king among many) invaded the Shandong kingdom, dividing it in two.

1357-60 (3054, Yin Fire Chicken / 3057, Yang Metal Rat), he made war against the Guanxi kingdom, conquered Guangzhou, thereby dividing his strongest two enemies.

1362-66 (3059, Yang Water Tiger / 3063, Yang Fire Horse), The Ji’an Emperor went on to conquer the upper Yangtse kingdom, Sichuan and Dali.

The year 1367 (3064, Yin Fire Sheep) saw a Border war between Ji’an and the Pagan Kingdom; Ji’an proved victorious. Pagan was forced to give the conquered Chinese lands back and pay tribute.

During 1371-75 (3068, Yin Metal Pig / 3072, Yin Wood Rabbit), the old Ji’an emperor made war against Guanxi once again. By war’s end the entirety of Southern China was united once again.

In 1381 (3078, Yin Metal Chicken) the first Ji’an emperor was succeeded by his son the Guilin Emperor. Shortly after his ascension to the throne, the Guilin emperor declared war on the Jin Empire.

In 1384 (3081, Yang Wood Rat), with unrest on the rise the new Ji’an emperor was forced to make peace. Jin ceded Kaifeng and Luoyang.

1387 (3084, Yin Fire Rabbit), the War between Ji’an and Jin begins again. In 1390, Goryeo entered the war on Ji’an’s side against Jin.

By 1392 (3089, Yang Water Monkey), the Ji’an conquered Beijing, and the Jin empire was destroyed. Jin loyalist forces fought in vain for several more years before finally surrendering or being destroyed. The Guilinemperor decided that the Great Wall needed to be repaired.


Expansion of influence

Even before the unification of China was complete, Ji’an made efforts to project its power over its own traditional borders. With a newly built fleet, the emperor made the first campaign against Nipponese pirates around Formosa.

In 1385 (3082, Yin Wood Ox) Ji’an and Annam forced Champa into tributary status, as it had been under earlier dynasties.

During the 15th century, Ji’an China sent caravans along the Silk Road to Choresm, starting diplomatic relations with nations along the road.


The Treasure Fleets

1400-02 (3097, Yang Metal Dragon / 3099, Yang Water Horse): First voyage of the Ji’an Treasure Ships. They travelled to Pasai (Sumatra), Melaka (Malacca), Ayutthaya, Khmer, Pagan, and at the end of their journey arrive in Calicut.

1404-06 (3101, Yang Wood Monkey / 3103, Yang Fire Dog): A Second voyage of the Ji’an Treasure Ships is undertaken. They travel to Calicut again, then onto Sri Lanka, whose Raja accepted the Ji’an as supreme rulers. Yet, shortly after the Ji’an fleet left, the Raja reneged on his pledge.

1407-09 (3104, Yin Fire Pig / 3106, Yin Earth Ox): Third voyage of the Ji’an Treasure Ships. This time they went south to Brunei, Majapahit, and the Guineas.

1416-19 (3113, Yang Fire Monkey / 3116, Yin Earth Pig): The Great Voyage: Ji’an Treasure Ships went to Hormuz, visited Persia and started diplomatic relations. After that the fleet sails down the African coast from port to port before finally stopping in Mozambique. Following that, Ji’an merchants started trading with east African kingdoms.


Further events

1410s: Mongol incursions under Baraq Khan on Chinese territory force the Ji’an to interfere.

1419: Work on the Grand Canal between South and North China is renewed.

1422 (3119, Yang Water Tiger): Chiang Mai (Northern Thailand) pays tribute to Ji'an

1451 (3148, Yin Metal Sheep): Tibet joins the Chinese sphere of influence.

1452-56 (3149, Yang Water Monkey / 3153, Yang Fire Rat): A Chinese treasure fleet sails up the Red Sea, sending a delegation to Egypt. On their return, they also spread tales about Romans, Muslim desert savages, and European Kingdoms.

1474 (3171, Yang Wood Horse): The Northern Vietnamese King asks the Ji’an emperor to solve a struggle for succession. This sets a precedent for extending Chinese influence in Vietnam


Decline and fall

By the 1510s and 20s (3207 Earth Snake / 3217 Earth Rabbit) as the dynastic cycle dictates, the Ji’an dynasty was in its death throes. Corruption in the Imperial court was rampant, the Emperors cared less about administering their nation, and more for hunting, spending, and whoring. Perhaps the only productive activity that the last Emperors undertook was spending a great deal of their wealth on the arts, cultural projects, and extensive monuments and works of architecture that survive into our present day. For this reason the technological progress of their predecessors, the Song, was not lost. However, even with all their great feats of architecture and art, the Ji’an still fell prey to the dynastic cycle and after a series of droughts, famines, plagues, and rebellions the mighty Ji’an was laid to ruin.


Rise and Fall of the Zhēnxīn - 真心 (1525 – 1757 AD)
(I don’t feel like doing the bullets anymore)

Seizing upon the weakness of their southern neighbors, the Manchu Jurchen tribes united under a man named Sunjaci Xidong whom had previously been a minor Ji’an official. With a veritable horde of Manchus at his back, Xidong strove headlong into the chaos that had consumed China. Chaos is a ladder and Xidong made his way to the top most rung. After nearly a decade of campaigning, Xidong had conquered much of China. Xidong consolidated his power and claimed the Mandate of Heaven, in the process establishing the Zhēnxīn Dynasty.

Shortly after Xidong’s death, his son and heir continued what his father had started and squashed the few remaining independent warlords. Not long after, the new Sangui Emperor choose for his newly consolidated Empire to focus inward. In the process, this caused China to stagnate intellectually due to a lack of an exchange of ideas with foreigners. This trend continued for sometime before the status quo was broken.

In the late 1600’s an invasion of upper Vietnam was executed to extend Zhēnxīn influence further abroad. In a stunning defeat that rocked the entire country, a smaller but better equipped Vietnamese army defeated the Chinese invasion force nearly three times its size. The Vietnamese victory was owed in large part to superior modern Korean firearms that allowed the Vietnamese to outperform the Chinese army. It was this event that pushed the Zhēnxīn emperors to reconsider their foolish inward policy.

A second army was gathered and dispatched to Vietnam, and despite suffering considerable losses were able to gain the upper hand and decisively defeat the Vietnamese. After northern Vietnam was annexed, another flaw in the Zhēnxīn’s inward policy became apparent. The Vietnamese were better off with open trade with its neighbors and the free spread of ideas that came with it proved to be very productive. Because of this, the reigning Yamen Emperor rescinded these policies enacted by his predecessors and sought to bring China out of isolation. After nearly two centuries of isolation, however, it was apparent many reforms were needed to bring China back to modern standards.

Despite the efforts set into motion by the Yamen Emperor many of the necessary reforms weren’t enacted before the collapse of the foreign Zhēnxīn dynasty.

Signs that the dynastic cycle were again at work to remove the Zhēnxīn dynasty from power were evident shortly after the first few reforms were put into place. In fact, while they were necessary to the modernization of China they were perhaps the reason for the Zhēnxīn dynasty’s ultimate demise. In a similar fashion to Wang Anshi’s New Policies, a series of socio economic reforms were enacted that proved equally disastrous to Wang’s New Policies. At first the policies that included land grants, loans, and nationalization of some industries were successful and proved to be profitable for the government, and in many cases the lower class as well.

However, after a series of devastating natural disasters, many landowning peasants and merchants defaulted on their loans, having lost everything they owned. This coupled with the extensive corruption in the court, and ineffectual response made by the Zhēnxīn lead to a similar demise to the Song. Unable to pay officials and soldiers the mounting unrest in provinces all across their territory led to the Zhēnxīn loss of the Mandate of Heaven and subsequent deposition of the last Emperor. And while it took many years, the Zhēnxīn too fell prey to the Dynastic Cycle.



Rise of the Xi Dynasty to Present


After usurping the throne of the Zhēnxīn, Emperor Taizu of Xi spent the next sixteen years conquering the rest of China, reuniting much of the territory that had once belonged to the Zhēnxīn and ending the power vacuum left by the fall of the previous dynasty. In Nanjing, he established a strong central government over the empire. Ensuring administrative stability by promoting the civil service examination system of drafting state bureaucrats by skill and merit, instead of aristocratic or military position, and promoted projects that ensured efficiency in communication throughout the empire. These projects included repairs of the Grand Canal, and other ambitious work projects. Emperor Taizu also promoted groundbreaking scientific and technological innovations by supporting such works with his patronage.

For almost a hundred years the Xi Dynasty has reigned supreme over China, invigorated by the Industrial Revolution and a Cultural Revolution. However, severe drought, economic downturns, and social unrest have recently threatened the stability of the Empire. The Xi teeter on the edge of falling prey to the dynastic cycle, but many still cling to the the hope that a change in fortune is on the horizon. Whether that hope is in vain is yet to be seen.

#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

It looks alright to me, accepted!

[Remnants of Exilvania]

The Prussians are my smallest worry as they virtually don't exist anymore.

Speaking of the pot of minorities within the Livonian territory though... and the Polish minority...

Hehehehehehehehe

Although we have significant problems with minorities ourselves. Germans in Holsten and Javans in the colonies.

Schlewig-Holstein please.
Just pray that no weird german unification people come knocking at your door.

-snip-

I thought we were otherwise agreed that the Finland Wars were to be 16th century, and not the 17th?

Otherwise, interesting to see that difficulties of reinforcement is one of the large weaknesses of the Teuton military. Scandinavia will then have an advantage in dragging the war just on and on and on, I suppose, considering that we're in excellent position to intercept your maritime trade as well.

I forgot that while writing that massive app. And to be fair, I think the 30-years war was a much better opportunity for this, as you could then get both Finland and Western Pommerania.
The whole Finland business was kind of hard to fit in anyway, since Sweden was there surprisingly early and in turbulent times for the order.

EDIT: Also, while looking at your app, I notice how you say you lost Gotland to the Hanseatic League and then later that you lost Denmark to the Livonians. I would like to let you know that you lost Gotland to the Victual Brothers and then gifted this pirate hell hole to the Teutonic Order as it was IRL. I would also like to say that Estonia was purchased from Denmark and not taken with military force.

EDIT2: And what are those populations? Especcially that Danish population? I got some different results with different sources.


And well, they can reinforce their troops although slowly. That's not the issue. The issue presents itself on the homefront which cannot sustain these losses possibly leading to economic downfall during or after the war. And please, while you are Scandinavia, remember that you have only half a million more people living in Scandinavia and recruiting them is even more difficult due to your vast territories. I know that most of your people will be concentrated in big cities along the coast but there will still be a sizeable portion of possible recruits living in your massive countryside.

[Plzen]

Schlewig-Holstein please.
Just pray that no weird german unification people come knocking at your door.

If they get uppity... depopulation intensifies.

A free republic doesn't necessarily have to be nice. This is 1850, and not 1950. The Scandinavian Republic is definitely the "populist mob rule" kind of republic and not the modern "constitution and human rights" kind of republic.

EDIT: Also, while looking at your app, I notice how you say you lost Gotland to the Hanseatic League and then later that you lost Denmark to the Livonians. I would like to let you know that you lost Gotland to the Victual Brothers and then gifted this pirate hell hole to the Teutonic Order as it was IRL. I would also like to say that Estonia was purchased from Denmark and not taken with military force.

These issues will be fixed. Thanks for letting me know.

EDIT2: And what are those populations? Especcially that Danish population? I got some different results with different sources.

No Swedish independence = no Dano-Swedish wars. Denmark still holds the Skåneland region which IRL was Sweden's most densely populated area. I stripped I think about half a million off Sweden's population and added it to the Danish.

And well, they can reinforce their troops although slowly. That's not the issue. The issue presents itself on the homefront which cannot sustain these losses possibly leading to economic downfall during or after the war. And please, while you are Scandinavia, remember that you have only half a million more people living in Scandinavia and recruiting them is even more difficult due to your vast territories. I know that most of your people will be concentrated in big cities along the coast but there will still be a sizeable portion of possible recruits living in your massive countryside.

I wasn't thinking population at all. Soldiers and rifles are cheap and replaceable; gold coin is hard to find. In any case, this isn't a land war.

I was talking more about your ability to replace lost ships and revenue.

[Remnants of Exilvania]

EDIT2: And what are those populations? Especcially that Danish population? I got some different results with different sources.

No Swedish independence = no Dano-Swedish wars. Denmark still holds the Skåneland region which IRL was Sweden's most densely populated area. I stripped I think about half a million off Sweden's population and added it to the Danish.

Let me rephrase this. Following the source I got, I come to an overall population of all of Scandinavia at 1850 including Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland of about 7,985 million. Adding your Holstein makes it 8,365. Not 9,50 million. But I do also note that you use a census from 1860 so that might be the reason for these differences. The latter half of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century saw an exponential rise in the populations of nearly all states in europe so these 10 years can actually make quite a difference.

And well, they can reinforce their troops although slowly. That's not the issue. The issue presents itself on the homefront which cannot sustain these losses possibly leading to economic downfall during or after the war. And please, while you are Scandinavia, remember that you have only half a million more people living in Scandinavia and recruiting them is even more difficult due to your vast territories. I know that most of your people will be concentrated in big cities along the coast but there will still be a sizeable portion of possible recruits living in your massive countryside.

I wasn't thinking population at all. Soldiers and rifles are cheap and replaceable; gold coin is hard to find. In any case, this isn't a land war.

I was talking more about your ability to replace lost ships and revenue.

Lost ships and revenue are easily replaced, especcially since Land trade is not an absolute no-option. Lost crews and experienced Captains though...

[Plzen]

Let me rephrase this. Following the source I got, I come to an overall population of all of Scandinavia at 1850 including Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland of about 7,985 million. Adding your Holstein makes it 8,365. Not 9,50 million.

I did boost my population a little bit because of less emigration to the Americas + more prosperity from colonial trade.

I didn't add an entire million people, though. Probably my sources are less reliable than yours. Or maybe my extrapolation from my sources was incorrect. This can be fixed quickly as well.

Is the figure for Finland for modern Finnish borders? Because Finland lost quite a bit as well.

But I do also note that you use a census from 1860 so that might be the reason for these differences. The latter half of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century saw an exponential rise in the populations of nearly all states in europe so these 10 years can actually make quite a difference.

This is actually just a typo. Oops.

Lost ships and revenue are easily replaced, especcially since Land trade is not an absolute no-option.

Sure, but it can't compare to naval trade.

[Plzen]

You know what, I don't want to spend lots of time trawling through historical population figures, and I can't find any for individual regions like Holsten or Karelia anyways. Loading up Victoria II, adding up the populations for Denmark, Sweden, Russian Finland, and Holstein, then assuming 0.76%/year growth up to 1850 gives me 8.67 million people.

I'll scale things down to that plus 5%.

[Tracian Empire]

You know what, I don't want to spend lots of time trawling through historical population figures, and I can't find any for individual regions like Holsten or Karelia anyways. Loading up Victoria II, adding up the populations for Denmark, Sweden, Russian Finland, and Holstein, then assuming 0.76%/year growth up to 1850 gives me 8.67 million people.

I'll scale things down to that plus 5%.

It's alright as long as it is realistic and as long as it respects your history.

Of course, I can understand Exil's concerns - after all, he is in a war with you.

[Plzen]

It's alright as long as it is realistic and as long as it respects your history.

Of course, I can understand Exil's concerns - after all, he is in a war with you.

I'm just not used to being this hounded with exact numbers in an alternate history RP.

But yes. I can understand why a player roleplaying a country at war with Scandinavia will want to strip any ahistorical advantages away from Scandinavia.

[Remnants of Exilvania]

Let me rephrase this. Following the source I got, I come to an overall population of all of Scandinavia at 1850 including Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Iceland of about 7,985 million. Adding your Holstein makes it 8,365. Not 9,50 million.

I did boost my population a little bit because of less emigration to the Americas + more prosperity from colonial trade.

I didn't add an entire million people, though. Probably my sources are less reliable than yours. Or maybe my extrapolation from my sources was incorrect. This can be fixed quickly as well.

Is the figure for Finland for modern Finnish borders? Because Finland lost quite a bit as well.

I do not know but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... of_Finland supports my number as well. Didn't the Russians keep the finnish territory mostly intact?

Lost ships and revenue are easily replaced, especcially since Land trade is not an absolute no-option.

Sure, but it can't compare to naval trade.

It never did. Free naval trade was only possible in the baltics and I have a border with every Baltic state except you.
Trade with other parts of the world was not very profitable due to the Danish situation...

Still, I could potentually do trade. Depends on the Russians tough.
Except for one channel, there seems to be a mostly natural connection between the Batlci Sea and the White Sea. If I would use russian vessels for my trade I could potentually circumvent your blockade.

It's alright as long as it is realistic and as long as it respects your history.

Of course, I can understand Exil's concerns - after all, he is in a war with you.

I'm just not used to being this hounded with exact numbers in an alternate history RP.

But yes. I can understand why a player roleplaying a country at war with Scandinavia will want to strip any ahistorical advantages away from Scandinavia.

Although I do intend to loose, I want to keep this war as interesting as possible, thus I have a vested interest in keeping it balanced.

[Plzen]

I do not know but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... of_Finland supports my number as well. Didn't the Russians keep the finnish territory mostly intact?

As of 1940, when Finland lost it, Viipuri/Vyborg was Finland's second largest city.

Except for one channel, there seems to be a mostly natural connection between the Batlci Sea and the White Sea. If I would use russian vessels for my trade I could potentually circumvent your blockade.

The Baltic-White Sea Canal IRL wasn't completed until the Soviet era, and even then it was too small for serious international shipping.

Although I do intend to loose, I want to keep this war as interesting as possible, thus I have a vested interest in keeping it balanced.

Personally I think it already is balanced. Your advantage on land is nullified by the fact that we don't share a land border, and my advantage on the sea is nullified by the fact that I have to defend my colonies.

[Remnants of Exilvania]

I do not know but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... of_Finland supports my number as well. Didn't the Russians keep the finnish territory mostly intact?

As of 1940, when Finland lost it, Viipuri/Vyborg was Finland's second largest city.

Imperial Russia had Finland as a whole. Including Wyborg so I suppose it's the whole of Finland.

Except for one channel, there seems to be a mostly natural connection between the Batlci Sea and the White Sea. If I would use russian vessels for my trade I could potentually circumvent your blockade.

The Baltic-White Sea Canal IRL wasn't completed until the Soviet era, and even then it was too small for serious international shipping.

It depends on the Russian player. Plans for the Canal existed since the 19th century but were not realized due to the expenses. Plus, ships in 1850 and ships in 1933 aren't exactly the same in size so I expect trade vessels could use it.[/quote]

Although I do intend to loose, I want to keep this war as interesting as possible, thus I have a vested interest in keeping it balanced.

Personally I think it already is balanced. Your advantage on land is nullified by the fact that we don't share a land border, and my advantage on the sea is nullified by the fact that I have to defend my colonies.

Possibly.
Currently the only option I see to break a costly war of attrition would be an alliance with Germany or Russia. That would end the war quickly for either of us. You ally with Russia and I get killed. I ally with Russia and you get killed. You ally with Germany and I get killed. I ally with Germany and you lose Denmark and the blockade ends.

Inb4 I naval invade southern Finland...