New Civilizations [OOC | Open]

[The Orson Empire]

Can you say "Civil War"?

That's part of why the Imperium is so hostile to other immortals. To acknowledge another man out of time as equal to the Hegemon would undermine his authority, and thus that of the Emperor, which would likely lead to significant political instability. On the other hand, if other immortals are pretenders or deceivers, there is not cognitive dichotomy necessary to justify why men should follow Viktor instead of these others.

Jeb maybe seeing where Viktor's coming from. As Jeb is not feeling good vibes from Turner and his advisory aren't liking Turner's sudden ambitions. If he proves too much to be a hassle, then at least I have his glasses.

Turner hasn't given Jeb his glasses yet.

And Turner may be ambitious, but he is not an idiot. Turner knows that Jeb and his council are suspicious of him, so he will tone it down considerably.

[Ulls]

Jeb maybe seeing where Viktor's coming from. As Jeb is not feeling good vibes from Turner and his advisory aren't liking Turner's sudden ambitions. If he proves too much to be a hassle, then at least I have his glasses.

Turner hasn't given Jeb his glasses yet.

And Turner may be ambitious, but he is not an idiot. Turner knows that Jeb and his council are suspicious of him, so he will tone it down considerably.

That was if I have to execute him.

I will like to see how this goes with both Turner and Jeb.

[Leninist South Africa]

How influential could Russia be in this timeline?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Cool post Krugmar. I like the use of names for your character.

[Krugmar]

Cool post Krugmar. I like the use of names for your character.

Thanks, luckily Hittite seems to be quite well understood so hopefully he'll add more names to his collection. I assume the reference of some tribes fleeing the encroaching Empire of Man was fine? Just needed someway of throwing more doubt in his mind as to whether he is alone, and then some anger that somebody else is doing waaay better than him if so.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Cool post Krugmar. I like the use of names for your character.

Thanks, luckily Hittite seems to be quite well understood so hopefully he'll add more names to his collection. I assume the reference of some tribes fleeing the encroaching Empire of Man was fine? Just needed someway of throwing more doubt in his mind as to whether he is alone, and then some anger that somebody else is doing waaay better than him if so.

No worries, it's cool. The Imperium doesn't really displace/conquer often, but it happens, so that's fine by me.

[Kingdom of Tunisia]

GT, I know this is too early or anything but can my character create Gunpowder weapons?

[Ulls]

GT, I know this is too early or anything but can my character create Gunpowder weapons?

Do you know the gunpowder mixture and have sources of the ingredients?

[Conwy-Shire]

Ah, I haven't thought about concentric economic advantage in years. That takes me back. But it is important to remember, that as the zones expand, economic activity is not perfectly flexible; yes, pastoralists are mobile, but there are degrees of mobility. Fertile grazing lands near cities are still areas of high value to a pastoral society-subset due to that very proximity - and equally valuable to secondary agricultural activities due to said fertility and proximity. As the urban zone expands in to the primary agriculture zone, and that zone is displaced in to the resource zone, and so on, you see societal friction as the various zones are forced to move outwards by the expanding city.

That was what I was referring to with the farmer-pastoralist crisis; a contention over existing land, not the desire for more land. Obviously there's a near infinite amount of unused land beyond the proximate zones to the urban area that the pastoralists could move in to- they simply might not want to give up their traditional herding grounds in favor of agriculture.

That's what we had a disconnect on. You viewed that event as an incentive to expand on the borders of the League, whereas I meant it to be a source of contention on the urban fringe. Adding more land to the boundaries of Helios wouldn't resolve that issue, that's the trouble I have with you using it as an explanation for your rapid expansion.

The point of the Thunen rings is that economic zone re-ordering and expansion is just that: perfectly flexible, rational, natural and organic. The primary way that one zone would expand into the former territory of another is through stakeholder exchange, where landholders would respond to the increased price for their produce in the urban centre, so as to bring more produce to sell at that higher price and make greater profits. For these stakeholders - and indeed even the state, as a major agricultural stakeholder - the acquisition of that land would not be undertaken through walking onto it whilst the pastoralists were someplace else, it would involve negotiations vis-a-vis the pastoral leaders and coming to an arrangement that would involve a short-term cost for agrarians so that they could maximise long-term profits.

The pastoralists don't produce something as valuable as the agrarians in terms of yield, production, and market costs, and of course transport costs don't apply to them because they aren't tied to any particular piece of land. To them, their rational option would be to take the negotiated price from the agrarian stakeholder, which they would try to maximise through negotiations for their personal benefit, and then they move their herds away at no cost to themselves or their produce.

So in effect nobody is forced to move outwards from the centre-mass, it's the result of complex negotiations and the exchange of land between individuals which occurs on such a large scale it appears from the outside to be a concerted expansion of agricultural lands.

So it appears we still have a disconnect over this. I definitely viewed it as a crisis that could be resolved through expansion, precisely because it can. As I stated earlier it isn't expansion into virgin lands, nor is it all colonisation of the native savages. The League's expansion is co-operative, meaning that pre-established settlements, be they cities|towns|hamlets etc. would join the League for their own reasons (which I'll discuss below), and the pastoralists would be given access to more markets and be allowed to operate around more centre-masses, increasing the demand for their produce and giving them more incentive to approve of city-growth: it maximises their profits, which is the crux of their rationale.

I mean, yes and no. The trouble is that expansion, at any rate, slow or fast, is not entirely peaceful. There are no historical examples of scale for city-states and independent polities giving up power to another expanding polity without conflict; even Rome, who predominantly annexed Italy peacefully, did so via the threat of military force and the occasional demonstration of that force on reticent entities. Men in power don't give up power, even when given economic or cultural incentive to do so, unless that economic or cultural incentive becomes overpowering.

What does Helios offer to the other city-states of her region that they should give up a part of their autonomy to her voluntarily? I ran deal with a rate of slow expansion as cities become economically and socially interdependent and thus their populations gradually demand integration; that is the way the Imperium expands, as she generally expands peacefully. The Ceremony of Oath I detailed in my recent IC post deals with the results of that process, actually. But that is not a rapid pace, even where economic hegemony is all but absolute.

Historically, the only way to add to one nation's land area with speed is either colonization at the expense of primitive peoples, or conquest at the expense of more advanced peoples. Cities and ethnic groups, even tribes that favor confederation, don't simply blob up at such a rate. Tribal consolidation was focused on intermarriage and blood alliances, and that takes a generation or more to take hold, not ten years. Centralization or no centralization.

Unless you have a counter-example of peaceful integration on a vast scale in short time period? I would go with Athens and the Delian League, but even there membership was not entirely voluntary, and was more on account of an external threat than the other city-states deciding to simply join with Athens on account of her economic might/cultural strength/personal freedoms.

Of course, no one expands without conflict, but in the casus belli of conflict and war, outcomes can greatly affect how you are perceived and how people react to you in future. This is extremely relevant because the League doesn't destroy all vestiges of those who join the banner, as the Imperium does to any identity - national or local - which it touches. Perhaps this is because the League has only thus far dealt with people of a certain affinity, being primarily in the Caucasus/Pontic I don't understand your point about Rome because their acquisition of Italy was almost exclusively through conquest, so unless you want to come back to that point later I'll leave it.

The League offers a lot in terms of incentives for smaller states on the periphery, not just through creating spillover in economic and social interdependence. There are aspects of religion, where the old faiths are brought into dialogue with the newer, reformed version of their faith -
and I plan on having some fun with heretics/traditionalists later on - as well as aspects of political expediency for the elites - where state leaders can solidify their rule through guarantee provided by the League that it will help resolve internal instability within its constituent parts. Ill also have to leave your self-righteous comment about the Imperium's peaceful expansion, because you expand in-virtual-entirety through conquest or bloodshed .

The point about historical expansion is valid I'll grant, ancient states did expand through colonisation or conquest in the main part, and this produced homogeneous entities like the one you are constructing. It is not however the only successful way of constructing a political entity, even by the standards of the Ancient world. Tribal consolidation doesn't even slightly have bearing on this topic either, because kinship ties have been transcended by the polity and state identities.

If you want "a counter-example of peaceful integration on a vast scale in a short time period" you can look no further than the EU, which I'm modelling the League off of due to my familiarity with it. You could also look at the German Confederation|Empire a bit further back, or America - in fact any Federation/Confederation/Union/Heterogeneous Polity is your counter-example. Your point about the external threat is truly correct, and the crux of the matter: Your Imperium is the outside threat, the 'Other', the France to my German Confederation, the British to my American Colonies etc., and though you happily say that the people of this period are ignorant, not stupid, you don't seem to be granting that same courtesy to the theatres which other Authors are operating in.

I'd also like to raise a point about the Imperium's population density, seeing as your Lore post said you had a pop. of 2.5 million, yet your territory covers an area which could range from 1.5-2 million km/sq (which I estimated conservatively from the map in the OP). This would give you a population density of anywhere between 1.2 and 1.6 people per square kilometre, a problem that could not be alleviated by any measure of industrial capacity or Urbanisation of the population. I would expect that your Imperium is about to experience an F class extinction vortex from the Allee Effect, which will eventually lead to an A class extinction vortex (as it did in Imperial Rome)... and further expansion will only aggravate this.

Conversely, you appear to be using the McEvady estimates for population density, whereas I would prefer we used the HYDE estimates, what with HYDE being a modern institution and all. If you want realism though and make the executive choice to stick with McEvady however, just note that it will severely hamper the continuation of this RP in a 'realistic' fashion.

[Kingdom of Tunisia]

GT, I know this is too early or anything but can my character create Gunpowder weapons?

Do you know the gunpowder mixture and have sources of the ingredients?

Nope, But it will soon. I should get the IC going. But yeah, It has been two years so he should have the ability to build ships.

[The Olog-Hai]

I'm trying to work on a post now. Hopefully it will be done tonight.

[Ulls]

Do you know the gunpowder mixture and have sources of the ingredients?

Nope, But it will soon. I should get the IC going. But yeah, It has been two years so he should have the ability to build ships.

How has it been 2 years? I don't think most people have been that far ahead?

I'm trying to work on a post now. Hopefully it will be done tonight.

Some folks should be halfway to your neck of the woods.

[The Olog-Hai]

Nope, But it will soon. I should get the IC going. But yeah, It has been two years so he should have the ability to build ships.

How has it been 2 years? I don't think most people have been that far ahead?

I'm trying to work on a post now. Hopefully it will be done tonight.

Some folks should be halfway to your neck of the woods.

I know. I might say something about hearing rumors of an organized travelling group in my post.

[G-Tech Corporation]

The point of the Thunen rings is that economic zone re-ordering and expansion is just that: perfectly flexible, rational, natural and organic. The primary way that one zone would expand into the former territory of another is through stakeholder exchange, where landholders would respond to the increased price for their produce in the urban centre, so as to bring more produce to sell at that higher price and make greater profits. For these stakeholders - and indeed even the state, as a major agricultural stakeholder - the acquisition of that land would not be undertaken through walking onto it whilst the pastoralists were someplace else, it would involve negotiations vis-a-vis the pastoral leaders and coming to an arrangement that would involve a short-term cost for agrarians so that they could maximise long-term profits.

The pastoralists don't produce something as valuable as the agrarians in terms of yield, production, and market costs, and of course transport costs don't apply to them because they aren't tied to any particular piece of land. To them, their rational option would be to take the negotiated price from the agrarian stakeholder, which they would try to maximise through negotiations for their personal benefit, and then they move their herds away at no cost to themselves or their produce.

Except we both know that Thunen's theories were both based on some pretty far-reaching assumptions, and unrealistic expectations. Civilizations are neither rational nor organic: his postulates about perfect economic flexibility assume possession of total knowledge on the part of all parties, fair dealings with no aspects of greed beyond reciprocal self interest, and uniform terrain/economic utility of land, with distance from urban centers being the only factor of note. I think we both understand that none of those postulates should be accepted as valid outside of a purely theoretical discussion.

Pastoralists will prefer the lands they know to the lands they do not know. In some places, flexible pastoral displacement will be impossible due to climate/terrain composition. Farmers will lack the funds to compensate pastoralists they displace, but do so anyway in order to bring more land under cultivation, leading to conflict. Take Nigeria's ongoing difficulties as a working example of the conflict between agrarianism and pastoralism; it is neither rational, nor perfectly flexible, nor peaceful.

So in effect nobody is forced to move outwards from the centre-mass, it's the result of complex negotiations and the exchange of land between individuals which occurs on such a large scale it appears from the outside to be a concerted expansion of agricultural lands.

So it appears we still have a disconnect over this. I definitely viewed it as a crisis that could be resolved through expansion, precisely because it can. As I stated earlier it isn't expansion into virgin lands, nor is it all colonisation of the native savages. The League's expansion is co-operative, meaning that pre-established settlements, be they cities|towns|hamlets etc. would join the League for their own reasons (which I'll discuss below), and the pastoralists would be given access to more markets and be allowed to operate around more centre-masses, increasing the demand for their produce and giving them more incentive to approve of city-growth: it maximises their profits, which is the crux of their rationale.

You raise a fair point about pastoralists being given access to more markets and therefore alleviating the immediate pressures on the economic zones- if we accept the premise that those city-states/settlement areas did not have their own pastoralists competing for land in their peripheries, which seems like a less than likely scenario.

Ultimately, as cities expand, conflict over land use occurs on their peripheries. That's borne out by numerous historical examples, from medieval Germany to modern Africa. Expansion in to virgin land does not solve that issue, because even pastoralists do derive an economic advantage from proximity to markets in time-cost. Expansion in to settled land does solve that issue, but only if it is assumed that the peripheries of the settlements have room for the expansion of their peripheral populations, which isn't a viable scenario. As urbanization occurs, governments have to make value judgments about desireable and undesireable land use, and enforce those judgements- otherwise low level friction and potentially conflict results.

Which is neither here nor there- as I said, my only point for discussion here is whether than event would push Helios to expand, which I would say no due to the aforementioned "more cities don't actually mean less competition for land" which I've laid out.

Of course, no one expands without conflict, but in the casus belli of conflict and war, outcomes can greatly affect how you are perceived and how people react to you in future. This is extremely relevant because the League doesn't destroy all vestiges of those who join the banner, as the Imperium does to any identity - national or local - which it touches. Perhaps this is because the League has only thus far dealt with people of a certain affinity, being primarily in the Caucasus/Pontic I don't understand your point about Rome because their acquisition of Italy was almost exclusively through conquest, so unless you want to come back to that point later I'll leave it.

The Imperium hardly forcibly destroys all vestiges of culture- I'm sorry if you've gotten that impression from my posts. Rather, through exposure and relational ties, she deliberately accelerates the process of acculturation so as to render her peripheries more open to integration. It is a process with similar results, but far less overtly malicious than cultural suppression/destruction. Well, most of the time...

As for Rome- certainly the Republic integrated many of her citizens through explicit conquest, but equally she interposed citizenship on a plethora of nominally independent kingdoms and city-states through simple threat of military force, rather than outright warfare. Bilateral treaties with local entities not defeated in war, but near other polities defeated in war, were a hallmark of Roman expansion even through Byzantine times.

The League offers a lot in terms of incentives for smaller states on the periphery, not just through creating spillover in economic and social interdependence. There are aspects of religion, where the old faiths are brought into dialogue with the newer, reformed version of their faith -
and I plan on having some fun with heretics/traditionalists later on - as well as aspects of political expediency for the elites - where state leaders can solidify their rule through guarantee provided by the League that it will help resolve internal instability within its constituent parts. Ill also have to leave your self-righteous comment about the Imperium's peaceful expansion, because you expand in-virtual-entirety through conquest or bloodshed .

The point about historical expansion is valid I'll grant, ancient states did expand through colonisation or conquest in the main part, and this produced homogeneous entities like the one you are constructing. It is not however the only successful way of constructing a political entity, even by the standards of the Ancient world. Tribal consolidation doesn't even slightly have bearing on this topic either, because kinship ties have been transcended by the polity and state identities.

If you want "a counter-example of peaceful integration on a vast scale in a short time period" you can look no further than the EU, which I'm modelling the League off of due to my familiarity with it. You could also look at the German Confederation|Empire a bit further back, or America - in fact any Federation/Confederation/Union/Heterogeneous Polity is your counter-example. Your point about the external threat is truly correct, and the crux of the matter: Your Imperium is the outside threat, the 'Other', the France to my German Confederation, the British to my American Colonies etc., and though you happily say that the people of this period are ignorant, not stupid, you don't seem to be granting that same courtesy to the theatres which other Authors are operating in.

I'm looking for a counterpoint to what the League offers local kings and rulers, but not seeing one. Did you mean to have something about that? As I noted, simple slight economic advantage/access to markets/religious dialogue shouldn't be enough to integrate independent polities- unless, as you say, the League is little more than an EU-esque psuedo-confederation. In that case, I drop almost all of my objections, save to the scale of the integrations. I'm happy to up your land gains to doubling in size, like Ego did in the timeskip. Certainly a disunited entity like the German Confederation could expand relatively rapidly, but she would still face resistance to her expansion, especially as she increased in size and thus newer potential members felt less able to be included in her dialogues at a significant level.

Ah, you mistake me. The Imperium expands largely peacefully- but I completely agree that most of the expansions I have written of are violent. I generally hold to the rule of show, don't tell, if at all possible, and there are some of my posts that include peaceful expansion (down the Danube, in to Germany, in to the Ukraine, if memory serves), but as a rule of thumb I find those posts rather tepid and uninspired due to their lack of events, and so I have made few of them.

I'd also like to raise a point about the Imperium's population density, seeing as your Lore post said you had a pop. of 2.5 million, yet your territory covers an area which could range from 1.5-2 million km/sq (which I estimated conservatively from the map in the OP). This would give you a population density of anywhere between 1.2 and 1.6 people per square kilometre, a problem that could not be alleviated by any measure of industrial capacity or Urbanisation of the population. I would expect that your Imperium is about to experience an F class extinction vortex from the Allee Effect, which will eventually lead to an A class extinction vortex (as it did in Imperial Rome)... and further expansion will only aggravate this.

Conversely, you appear to be using the McEvady estimates for population density, whereas I would prefer we used the HYDE estimates, what with HYDE being a modern institution and all. If you want realism though and make the executive choice to stick with McEvady however, just note that it will severely hamper the continuation of this RP in a 'realistic' fashion.

I'll happily admit that I'm not familiar with the Allee Effect, and a cursory reading did not enlighten me- perhaps you could explain what you see as the issue with the Imperium's scale/population? It seemed as if Allee were concerned about genetic distribution and variance in widely distributed populations.

As for the population estimates, I honestly haven't looked at one in some time. Ranges go anywhere from 10m to 45m, and in-character the Imperium only takes urban censuses, so I'm not fussed one way or another frankly.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Do you know the gunpowder mixture and have sources of the ingredients?

Nope, But it will soon. I should get the IC going. But yeah, It has been two years so he should have the ability to build ships.

What's all this about two years?

[Leninist South Africa]

Sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter. The three ingredients of black powder. Which is kinda like a prototype modern, smokeless powder. If you want, you could try to reach out to St. Petersburg (same location IRL), and I can give you the knowledge then.

[Leninist South Africa]

How's my latest post?

[Ulls]

Sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter. The three ingredients of black powder. Which is kinda like a prototype modern, smokeless powder. If you want, you could try to reach out to St. Petersburg (same location IRL), and I can give you the knowledge then.

That's only half of the battle. No one but a few authors would know how to get the mixture of black powder.

[Kelmet]

Did I miss anything important?

[Leninist South Africa]

Sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter. The three ingredients of black powder. Which is kinda like a prototype modern, smokeless powder. If you want, you could try to reach out to St. Petersburg (same location IRL), and I can give you the knowledge then.

That's only half of the battle. No one but a few authors would know how to get the mixture of black powder.

What do you mean? I the recipe for gunpowder, but I have yet to actually make any firearms.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Did I miss anything important?

Lots of talking about rates of expansion. I kicked up a new post, but I'm sure you saw that.

[Ulls]

That's only half of the battle. No one but a few authors would know how to get the mixture of black powder.

What do you mean? I the recipe for gunpowder, but I have yet to actually make any firearms.

Really? Do you have any skills in chemistry or historical knowledge of the mixture?

[Leninist South Africa]

That I do not, I just memorized the formula.

[G-Tech Corporation]

What do you mean? I the recipe for gunpowder, but I have yet to actually make any firearms.

Really? Do you have any skills in chemistry or historical knowledge of the mixture?

It's cool Ulls. We'll just call his character the Armless Russkie.

[Leninist South Africa]

Nyet, myenya zovut Vladimir Kuznetsov ot Sankt Peterburg!

(Translation: No, my name is Vladimir Kuznetsov of St. Petersburg!)

(PS: Half of my family is British, the other half is Russian, and I live in München (Munich))