New Civilizations [OOC | Open]

[Ulls]

Fair enough, just have to up the scale of my influence over the States.

[Skarten]

Fair enough, just have to up the scale of my influence over the States.

So how many years till you get to japan?
I need to consolidate power as a centralized japanese leader.

[Ulls]

Fair enough, just have to up the scale of my influence over the States.

So how many years till you get to japan?
I need to consolidate power as a centralized japanese leader.

If I launch from Ego proper, it would take a few years with some ships being lost but you'll be seeing Night Owl banners coming down from Hokkaido.

From California it will depend how long it takes me to influence a state to send a small fleet that way.

[Skarten]

So how many years till you get to japan?
I need to consolidate power as a centralized japanese leader.

If I launch from Ego proper, it would take a few years with some ships being lost but you'll be seeing Night Owl banners coming down from Hokkaido.

From California it will depend how long it takes me to influence a state to send a small fleet that way.

I just need A centralized State to Come to help me centralize.
Right now i'm just the head of a Tribal Confederation.
I want to be Tennõ, not "Chief"

[The Holy Dominion of Inesea]

A couple of reasons.
Pre-Josephine World
-Common Language, Culture, and General Religion
-Common Defense(Relatively new, mostly against nomads from the north and sea peoples.)
-Increasingly Interconnected Communities(The central markets of the towns are where the villages can sell things and buy more advanced goods

Post-Josephine World
-Ease of creating Public Works
-Josephs own teachings and opinions. As a respected, if new, member of the community, Joseph's opinion on consolidation does provide it a boost in the eyes of the common man
-Drastic increase in commerce
-Spread of new technologies

The consolidation is also helped along be the fact that the settlements of the peninsula are all closer to each other in culture than to the outside cultures and some are beginning to fear the encroachment of the Imperium. Unite or Die, so to say.

Ah, okay. So, there are a few things there that aren't exactly the case. Remember, we're talking 3000 BCE; Greece is decidedly prehistoric, with few scattered settlements of 100-300 individuals. They won't share much in the way of language, culture, or even religion, due to being of separate tribes and people-groups. There's some agriculture and pastoralism, certainly, but is far from the dominant way of life- most of the population likely still lived in hunter-gatherer bands and kinship groups. Trade is limited to kind-kind and barter, as even the central granaries of the early Near East have yet to reach the region.

Of course, that's all impacted by technological/social diffusion from nearby regions. The Imperium has been proximate for a generation or two, so as you say, the imported crop strains, technologies like the wheel, domesticated horses, and such will have their impacts. But I would doubt that there is any level of political organization beyond the kindred-chieftain, outside of perhaps what Joseph establishes/has established during the timeskip, and trade in currency instruments or currency is limited to those settlements in the north or with access to the sea.

That isn't to say that there's much to prevent Joseph pushing for political consolidation, but the Greeks of this time period have only barely been exposed to the idea of authority that doesn't flow from blood ties, and fifty years isn't really long enough for such ideas to have gained widespread acceptance or implementation.

See originally I was running with the idea of essentially neolithic Greece, but I figured that wasn't entirely realistic. As you said earlier, they were essentially Chalcolithic when Joseph arrived. But then you also mentioned that merchants from the Imperium had ranged that far south and would be, to some extent, large settlements worth trading with. The demographic situation I have been working with, or under the assumption of working with, was the peninsula had about 2 dozen settlements, of which most had 100-200 souls, 3 had ~400-600 souls, and a northern port 'city'(perhaps near Corinth or Argos I never really hammered the exact location down) of ~1,000 souls. Los Millares, a chalcolithic settlement in Spain, had about 1,000 souls consistently, so the number itself is not unreasonable for a purely chalcolithic settlement. When you add on the spread of technology through the Imperium's periphery through trade and migration, with crops, tools, ideas, and livestock, a bump in population is reasonable. Or, at the least, a centralization of the population around the access point for these technologies, namely the Northern Primate Coastal 'City'. Assuming 20 years of trade, the areas of the northern peninsula probably are more akin to Bronze Age than Copper Age in terms of tools and technology, seeing as they could trade for it rather than develop it. Sidenote, by this point hunter-gatherers beyond fishermen are probably far, far dwarfed by argiculturalists and pastoralists even without Authorship.

As for language, you're right in that there'd be no universal lingua franca, but there'd be high degrees of mutual intelligibility. Much of the region belongs to the same linguistic group, and while actual research and knowledge of the topic is lacking today, it's not unreasonable to say that most of the regions population could interact with and communicate with a good deal of their neighbors. Religion itself is something I sorta agree with but sorta disagree with you on. They don't share identical pantheons beyond a few very general ones, but the share the idea that everyone's gods exist. IE the God of the Mountain is the same God, but with somewhat different names and characteristics to all those who live around it, as are the Sun God and Moon God. But the God of the Harvest? Varies by tribe. Do both Gods of Harvest exist? Yes. To each tribe, their own god. Whichever's God is more powerful reaps a more bountiful harvest.

I'm also not arguing that there will have been some native introduction of currency, I've only ever had barters occur and likely will use barters for awhile. Even the Mill 'Tax' was done in shares of milled grain. What I am saying is that the rise of a coastal trade 'city' and Dimi's own boom in industry will lead to an increase in trade.

As for politics, most settlements are still lead by chiefs and/or elder councils and composed of one or two clans. The consolidation is through the merging of ruling blood lines. Chief A marries Chief B's Daughter, A and B are now close allies. Rinse, Repeat. I'm not proposing that the Greeks become a Republic or a Democracy, the consolidation I speak of is a union of ruling blood lines. The state that emerges will not be a Republic but rather a centralized 'monarchy' or feudal state, events depending. The transition to Hellenic Republic must come after the Hellenic State itself is created as an idea, which won't be for centuries.

[Skarten]

G, does the imperium already have ominous lating gregorian chanting

[Ulls]

If I launch from Ego proper, it would take a few years with some ships being lost but you'll be seeing Night Owl banners coming down from Hokkaido.

From California it will depend how long it takes me to influence a state to send a small fleet that way.

I just need A centralized State to Come to help me centralize.
Right now i'm just the head of a Tribal Confederation.
I want to be Tennõ, not "Chief"

That can work, I would probably ask for my people to settle in Hokkaido and build Tokyo for horse breeding to send back to America.

Though there's probably going to be tension between us because of religious beliefs.

[Skarten]

I just need A centralized State to Come to help me centralize.
Right now i'm just the head of a Tribal Confederation.
I want to be Tennõ, not "Chief"

That can work, I would probably ask for my people to settle in Hokkaido and build Tokyo for horse breeding to send back to America.

Though there's probably going to be tension between us because of religious beliefs.

Yeah.
But again, i'm the only way you can get a shamisen, sooo

[Ulls]

That can work, I would probably ask for my people to settle in Hokkaido and build Tokyo for horse breeding to send back to America.

Though there's probably going to be tension between us because of religious beliefs.

Yeah.
But again, i'm the only way you can get a shamisen, sooo

Not really, but I can play nice.

[Skarten]

Yeah.
But again, i'm the only way you can get a shamisen, sooo

Not really, but I can play nice.

Yeah, but you still need japan to get shamisen music.

[Ulls]

Not really, but I can play nice.

Yeah, but you still need japan to get shamisen music.

pagan crusade intensifies

But seriously, we can do trade and such since Ego will be locked in war again.

[The Orson Empire]

Should I create a timeline for Turner's rise to power?

[Ulls]

Should I create a timeline for Turner's rise to power?

Yeah, understand that your rise of power would start after the Wisconsin state and you having your own province which is about six years in the time skip.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ah, okay. So, there are a few things there that aren't exactly the case. Remember, we're talking 3000 BCE; Greece is decidedly prehistoric, with few scattered settlements of 100-300 individuals. They won't share much in the way of language, culture, or even religion, due to being of separate tribes and people-groups. There's some agriculture and pastoralism, certainly, but is far from the dominant way of life- most of the population likely still lived in hunter-gatherer bands and kinship groups. Trade is limited to kind-kind and barter, as even the central granaries of the early Near East have yet to reach the region.

Of course, that's all impacted by technological/social diffusion from nearby regions. The Imperium has been proximate for a generation or two, so as you say, the imported crop strains, technologies like the wheel, domesticated horses, and such will have their impacts. But I would doubt that there is any level of political organization beyond the kindred-chieftain, outside of perhaps what Joseph establishes/has established during the timeskip, and trade in currency instruments or currency is limited to those settlements in the north or with access to the sea.

That isn't to say that there's much to prevent Joseph pushing for political consolidation, but the Greeks of this time period have only barely been exposed to the idea of authority that doesn't flow from blood ties, and fifty years isn't really long enough for such ideas to have gained widespread acceptance or implementation.

See originally I was running with the idea of essentially neolithic Greece, but I figured that wasn't entirely realistic. As you said earlier, they were essentially Chalcolithic when Joseph arrived. But then you also mentioned that merchants from the Imperium had ranged that far south and would be, to some extent, large settlements worth trading with. The demographic situation I have been working with, or under the assumption of working with, was the peninsula had about 2 dozen settlements, of which most had 100-200 souls, 3 had ~400-600 souls, and a northern port 'city'(perhaps near Corinth or Argos I never really hammered the exact location down) of ~1,000 souls. Los Millares, a chalcolithic settlement in Spain, had about 1,000 souls consistently, so the number itself is not unreasonable for a purely chalcolithic settlement. When you add on the spread of technology through the Imperium's periphery through trade and migration, with crops, tools, ideas, and livestock, a bump in population is reasonable. Or, at the least, a centralization of the population around the access point for these technologies, namely the Northern Primate Coastal 'City'. Assuming 20 years of trade, the areas of the northern peninsula probably are more akin to Bronze Age than Copper Age in terms of tools and technology, seeing as they could trade for it rather than develop it. Sidenote, by this point hunter-gatherers beyond fishermen are probably far, far dwarfed by argiculturalists and pastoralists even without Authorship.

As for language, you're right in that there'd be no universal lingua franca, but there'd be high degrees of mutual intelligibility. Much of the region belongs to the same linguistic group, and while actual research and knowledge of the topic is lacking today, it's not unreasonable to say that most of the regions population could interact with and communicate with a good deal of their neighbors. Religion itself is something I sorta agree with but sorta disagree with you on. They don't share identical pantheons beyond a few very general ones, but the share the idea that everyone's gods exist. IE the God of the Mountain is the same God, but with somewhat different names and characteristics to all those who live around it, as are the Sun God and Moon God. But the God of the Harvest? Varies by tribe. Do both Gods of Harvest exist? Yes. To each tribe, their own god. Whichever's God is more powerful reaps a more bountiful harvest.

I'm also not arguing that there will have been some native introduction of currency, I've only ever had barters occur and likely will use barters for awhile. Even the Mill 'Tax' was done in shares of milled grain. What I am saying is that the rise of a coastal trade 'city' and Dimi's own boom in industry will lead to an increase in trade.

As for politics, most settlements are still lead by chiefs and/or elder councils and composed of one or two clans. The consolidation is through the merging of ruling blood lines. Chief A marries Chief B's Daughter, A and B are now close allies. Rinse, Repeat. I'm not proposing that the Greeks become a Republic or a Democracy, the consolidation I speak of is a union of ruling blood lines. The state that emerges will not be a Republic but rather a centralized 'monarchy' or feudal state, events depending. The transition to Hellenic Republic must come after the Hellenic State itself is created as an idea, which won't be for centuries.

Okay, good points all around- I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page, since simple ideas like "lots more commerce" can mean different things to different folks.

The only thing I would note that, if you're asserting political integration via marriage, those ties tend to break down/reform every generation, and it has only been ~two-three generations since the Greeks of the Peloponnese even had the vaguest exposure to the concept of political loyalty outside of a kindred. So I would think smallish city-state alliance would make sense, with two-five tribes in relative concert due to local interests, but a union of ruling bloodlines will still be a fair distance away. There might be dozens, if not hundreds, of such micro-alliances knocking about lower Greece at this point in time, forming and dissolving ad-hoc with marriage ties and the deaths of chieftains.

A step towards political centralization certainly, but a far cry from anything like a single political power exerting influence much farther than the next trade partner over.

G, does the imperium already have ominous lating gregorian chanting

Naw. I don't know Latin, and thus Viktor doesn't know Latin, though obviously as an Author he could speak it if exposed to it. Imperial Christianity is far more of a personal religion than even the most decentralized churches of our modern day.

Should I create a timeline for Turner's rise to power?

That would be helpful, absolutely.

[The Holy Dominion of Inesea]

What I envision happening over the next decade is a union between the Sesk, Dimi, and Delphi. The three clans are already close, trade frequently, and have some degree of intermarriage. The last IC post I made had the ruling families of each intermarry so as to promote mutual ties between the three. By the end of the decade, the peninsula should roughly be split three or four ways, as the Delphi, Apolinu, Raveni, and Calibri vie for dominance. The Delphi(my folks, its easier to go by the largest group) is going to be a confederation of clans around the trading port of Delpha(Argos). They will be the richest and most populous of the factions that emerge. I will flesh this out much more later, but I got to go to Russian.

[G-Tech Corporation]

What I envision happening over the next decade is a union between the Sesk, Dimi, and Delphi. The three clans are already close, trade frequently, and have some degree of intermarriage. The last IC post I made had the ruling families of each intermarry so as to promote mutual ties between the three. By the end of the decade, the peninsula should roughly be split three or four ways, as the Delphi, Apolinu, Raveni, and Calibri vie for dominance. The Delphi(my folks, its easier to go by the largest group) is going to be a confederation of clans around the trading port of Delpha(Argos). They will be the richest and most populous of the factions that emerge. I will flesh this out much more later, but I got to go to Russian.

Not a bad idea long term- four families dominating hundreds of clans, though, seems a bit more 1000 BCE than 3000 BCE, no?

[The Holy Dominion of Inesea]

What I envision happening over the next decade is a union between the Sesk, Dimi, and Delphi. The three clans are already close, trade frequently, and have some degree of intermarriage. The last IC post I made had the ruling families of each intermarry so as to promote mutual ties between the three. By the end of the decade, the peninsula should roughly be split three or four ways, as the Delphi, Apolinu, Raveni, and Calibri vie for dominance. The Delphi(my folks, its easier to go by the largest group) is going to be a confederation of clans around the trading port of Delpha(Argos). They will be the richest and most populous of the factions that emerge. I will flesh this out much more later, but I got to go to Russian.

Not a bad idea long term- four families dominating hundreds of clans, though, seems a bit more 1000 BCE than 3000 BCE, no?

Ah not quite
The Delphi, Apolinu, Raveni, and Calibri are the most powerful tribes/clans in the region. They aren't distinct families, rather several interconnected ones. They also will be, for now, distinct political entities.

The Delphi of Delpha will be allied with the Sesk and Dimi in a loose confederation. The Chief of the Delphi will be the first among equals of the united chiefs by the fact that he has the largest and overall wealthiest tribe. They are located around Argos. They also dominate trade with the Imperials due to Delpha's position as the main port-of-entry(for now) for their goods by sea.

The Raveni of Ravenpol are allied with the Micanoi. The Calibri of Calibus are allied with the Centuri. Both of these are minor players, all things considered and are in the south near Amaliada and Kalamata respectively.

The Apolinu of Aghonus dominate the Laconii. Though nominally allies, the Laconii are effectively 'tributaries' of the far larger and more powerful Apolinu. Aghonus is located near Corinth. The Laconii control land-based trade between the peninsula and the outside world. The Laconii are small and weak, often raided by northerners.

There are also numerous small clans, hunting bands, and small hamlets scattered about. They are all below 100 souls.

The settlements of Delpha and Aghonus are the most powerful. Both have had over a generation of exposure to the Imperium's Periphery and possess technology that solidly makes them late-Copper to Bronze Age. The Delphi, Dimi, and Sesk are united in an alliance-confederation called Sympagis. The three ruling family-clans of each tribe have heavily intermarried. They are the Aneoa, the Tclem, and the Patrikosi. At the urging of Joseph, exogamy was promoted between not just the ruling family lines but also among the general population. The wife joined the husbands clan. In helped bring the communities together. After all, you are less likely to want to kill a Sesk if your sister is one too. While still independent of each other, the Triandria, that is the three chiefs, cooperate on things such as defense and trade. With Joseph's guidance, technology such as dams, mills, plows, and sewage systems spread through the Sympagis. Joseph also goes on periodic ministries through the region and beyond, opening clinics and spreading knowledge of basic medical care. After five years of tutelage under Joseph, Alala now serves as the main Phsyio of Delpha. All kinds of people, from craftsmen to laborers, are starting to congregate in Delpha and and to a lesser extent Dimi and Sesk. Joseph also began to mess around with gunpowder in his(limited) spare time. So far he's seen good success, but its not a priority. The True Faith has grown to encompass maybe 100 followers. Jesus Christ as a God of Medicine is universally accepted by the pagans in the region. Central granaries and food storage has also been created at the behest of Joseph, who planned on making sure the agricultural surplus would be stored for leaner times. Joseph, while not a chief and possessing no political power, is seen as either a holy man, a prophet, or a genius by the general populace. To the pagans, he is a holy man of the medicine god. To Christians, he is the first prophet. To the rest, he is a skilled man who has drastically improved their lots in life. Joseph also taught Alala Russian and English and was introducing the Latin Alphabet to these people. Slowly written word was spreading, limited by the materials upon which to write.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Not a bad idea long term- four families dominating hundreds of clans, though, seems a bit more 1000 BCE than 3000 BCE, no?

Ah not quite
The Delphi, Apolinu, Raveni, and Calibri are the most powerful tribes/clans in the region. They aren't distinct families, rather several interconnected ones. They also will be, for now, distinct political entities.

The Delphi of Delpha will be allied with the Sesk and Dimi in a loose confederation. The Chief of the Delphi will be the first among equals of the united chiefs by the fact that he has the largest and overall wealthiest tribe. They are located around Argos. They also dominate trade with the Imperials due to Delpha's position as the main port-of-entry(for now) for their goods by sea.

The Raveni of Ravenpol are allied with the Micanoi. The Calibri of Calibus are allied with the Centuri. Both of these are minor players, all things considered and are in the south near Amaliada and Kalamata respectively.

The Apolinu of Aghonus dominate the Laconii. Though nominally allies, the Laconii are effectively 'tributaries' of the far larger and more powerful Apolinu. Aghonus is located near Corinth. The Laconii control land-based trade between the peninsula and the outside world. The Laconii are small and weak, often raided by northerners.

There are also numerous small clans, hunting bands, and small hamlets scattered about. They are all below 100 souls.

The settlements of Delpha and Aghonus are the most powerful. Both have had over a generation of exposure to the Imperium's Periphery and possess technology that solidly makes them late-Copper to Bronze Age. The Delphi, Dimi, and Sesk are united in an alliance-confederation called Sympagis. The three ruling family-clans of each tribe have heavily intermarried. They are the Aneoa, the Tclem, and the Patrikosi. At the urging of Joseph, exogamy was promoted between not just the ruling family lines but also among the general population. The wife joined the husbands clan. In helped bring the communities together. After all, you are less likely to want to kill a Sesk if your sister is one too. While still independent of each other, the Triandria, that is the three chiefs, cooperate on things such as defense and trade. With Joseph's guidance, technology such as dams, mills, plows, and sewage systems spread through the Sympagis. Joseph also goes on periodic ministries through the region and beyond, opening clinics and spreading knowledge of basic medical care. After five years of tutelage under Joseph, Alala now serves as the main Phsyio of Delpha. All kinds of people, from craftsmen to laborers, are starting to congregate in Delpha and and to a lesser extent Dimi and Sesk. Joseph also began to mess around with gunpowder in his(limited) spare time. So far he's seen good success, but its not a priority. The True Faith has grown to encompass maybe 100 followers. Jesus Christ as a God of Medicine is universally accepted by the pagans in the region. Central granaries and food storage has also been created at the behest of Joseph, who planned on making sure the agricultural surplus would be stored for leaner times. Joseph, while not a chief and possessing no political power, is seen as either a holy man, a prophet, or a genius by the general populace. To the pagans, he is a holy man of the medicine god. To Christians, he is the first prophet. To the rest, he is a skilled man who has drastically improved their lots in life. Joseph also taught Alala Russian and English and was introducing the Latin Alphabet to these people. Slowly written word was spreading, limited by the materials upon which to write.

That's a cool story- like I said though, assuming these families pre-date Joseph's arrival, I'm not seeing the ancient Greeks making the leap from tribal kindred structures to four dominant families in all of Greece in the span of ~20-40 years, especially with no Author to push them forward. That's the premise that doesn't make sense; it is a logical method of political cohesion if somehow a tribe has managed to rise to prominence over a region larger than Sparta will control in 1000 BCE, but I don't buy that development having occurred due to the influence of a civilization about a thousand miles distant.

That would be like saying the people of Syria developed into a broadly unified polity in two generations because of the presence of a civilization in Egypt. History argues such effects are far more long-term and subtle.

[The Olog-Hai]

Here's my ten year time skip summary, tell me how it is:

After a few months of discussion with the smiths of Ego, and aiding them in ironworking, Abraham sets off on a journey home to Franklin, along with some diagrams gifted to him by the craftsmen of Ego in return for his help, detailing how to create the necessary furnaces and whatnot.

Upon returning home to Franklin, he spends some time teaching assistants in the ways of ironworking and creating the adequate facilities to craft iron, before beginning construction of a proper mine around the iron deposit he discovered, naming it the Franklin Furnace, after the mine that existed there in his time,

Abraham also began betterment and expansion of Franklin itself, including expansion of the city, and the addition of such amenities as a simple system for running water (which after this time, has still not quite been finished), and soon discovers that the city of Franklin itself is quickly growing too large for one location.

Abraham then sets out to find a location for a second city, deciding on an area that he guesses is around modern Trenton, and begins preparation of the area for construction. He discovers tribes in the area that are averse to these actions, and opens negotiations with them. Some he is able to absorb into Franklin with the promises of better lives, some he is able to buy off with finely carved stone tools and other useful objects, however some resist these treaties.

So, he heads back to his forge, and begins the creation of iron weapons to wage war with. On completion of these weapons, he takes 50 warriors and successfully routs the resisting tribes, forcing them out of the area, and only losing five men in the struggle. Now that these issues have been dealt with, many caravans run back and forth between Trenton and Franklin, for the construction of the new city, and as the next stage of the RP opens, Trenton is about halfway completed.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Here's my ten year time skip summary, tell me how it is:

After a few months of discussion with the smiths of Ego, and aiding them in ironworking, Abraham sets off on a journey home to Franklin, along with some diagrams gifted to him by the craftsmen of Ego in return for his help, detailing how to create the necessary furnaces and whatnot.

Upon returning home to Franklin, he spends some time teaching assistants in the ways of ironworking and creating the adequate facilities to craft iron, before beginning construction of a proper mine around the iron deposit he discovered, naming it the Franklin Furnace, after the mine that existed there in his time,

Abraham also began betterment and expansion of Franklin itself, including expansion of the city, and the addition of such amenities as a simple system for running water (which after this time, has still not quite been finished), and soon discovers that the city of Franklin itself is quickly growing too large for one location.

Abraham then sets out to find a location for a second city, deciding on an area that he guesses is around modern Trenton, and begins preparation of the area for construction. He discovers tribes in the area that are averse to these actions, and opens negotiations with them. Some he is able to absorb into Franklin with the promises of better lives, some he is able to buy off with finely carved stone tools and other useful objects, however some resist these treaties.

So, he heads back to his forge, and begins the creation of iron weapons to wage war with. On completion of these weapons, he takes 50 warriors and successfully routs the resisting tribes, forcing them out of the area, and only losing five men in the struggle. Now that these issues have been dealt with, many caravans run back and forth between Trenton and Franklin, for the construction of the new city, and as the next stage of the RP opens, Trenton is about halfway completed.

That all looks good, though two points I would like to see clarified:

1) The furnaces from Ego- to my understanding, Ego understands less about what is required to work iron than Franklin and Abraham. Thus it doesn't seem very straightforward that contact with them would enhance his ability to build a forge, no?

2) Abraham's use of citizens as warriors- unless I missed something, Abraham still doesn't hold a position in Franklin beyond local crazed inventor and respected citizen. As such, you might want to think out how he expands Franklin/motivates her citizens into killing on his command. Cash is good, but of course, you kinda need currency for that. Maybe he gains a position on the local council? Something like that?

[Ulls]

We did have bloomeries and knowing that coal made things stronger, just that we made a dye from copper and we made cast iron and advanced our metallurgy with Franklin, so if anything, Franklin would be somewhat better than Ego at ironworking but Ego is more versatile with how they use their iron.

[The Olog-Hai]

Here's my ten year time skip summary, tell me how it is:

After a few months of discussion with the smiths of Ego, and aiding them in ironworking, Abraham sets off on a journey home to Franklin, along with some diagrams gifted to him by the craftsmen of Ego in return for his help, detailing how to create the necessary furnaces and whatnot.

Upon returning home to Franklin, he spends some time teaching assistants in the ways of ironworking and creating the adequate facilities to craft iron, before beginning construction of a proper mine around the iron deposit he discovered, naming it the Franklin Furnace, after the mine that existed there in his time,

Abraham also began betterment and expansion of Franklin itself, including expansion of the city, and the addition of such amenities as a simple system for running water (which after this time, has still not quite been finished), and soon discovers that the city of Franklin itself is quickly growing too large for one location.

Abraham then sets out to find a location for a second city, deciding on an area that he guesses is around modern Trenton, and begins preparation of the area for construction. He discovers tribes in the area that are averse to these actions, and opens negotiations with them. Some he is able to absorb into Franklin with the promises of better lives, some he is able to buy off with finely carved stone tools and other useful objects, however some resist these treaties.

So, he heads back to his forge, and begins the creation of iron weapons to wage war with. On completion of these weapons, he takes 50 warriors and successfully routs the resisting tribes, forcing them out of the area, and only losing five men in the struggle. Now that these issues have been dealt with, many caravans run back and forth between Trenton and Franklin, for the construction of the new city, and as the next stage of the RP opens, Trenton is about halfway completed.

That all looks good, though two points I would like to see clarified:

1) The furnaces from Ego- to my understanding, Ego understands less about what is required to work iron than Franklin and Abraham. Thus it doesn't seem very straightforward that contact with them would enhance his ability to build a forge, no?

2) Abraham's use of citizens as warriors- unless I missed something, Abraham still doesn't hold a position in Franklin beyond local crazed inventor and respected citizen. As such, you might want to think out how he expands Franklin/motivates her citizens into killing on his command. Cash is good, but of course, you kinda need currency for that. Maybe he gains a position on the local council? Something like that?

For the second point, if you delve far back, to the first rendition of this RP that Franklin appeared in, he was instated as a protector of a the original, pretty small tribe, because he happened to look over the rest of the tribespeople. This position has evolved over time, and with the other things he's done he gained a lot of influence, and in fact is essentially the top military leader of the tribe. Sorry for not elaborating on this, but there was the last ten year time skip which I never got around to fully elaborating.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Returned from my trip. Now I can bar my room and start gaming and posting.

[The Holy Dominion of Inesea]

Ah not quite
The Delphi, Apolinu, Raveni, and Calibri are the most powerful tribes/clans in the region. They aren't distinct families, rather several interconnected ones. They also will be, for now, distinct political entities.

The Delphi of Delpha will be allied with the Sesk and Dimi in a loose confederation. The Chief of the Delphi will be the first among equals of the united chiefs by the fact that he has the largest and overall wealthiest tribe. They are located around Argos. They also dominate trade with the Imperials due to Delpha's position as the main port-of-entry(for now) for their goods by sea.

The Raveni of Ravenpol are allied with the Micanoi. The Calibri of Calibus are allied with the Centuri. Both of these are minor players, all things considered and are in the south near Amaliada and Kalamata respectively.

The Apolinu of Aghonus dominate the Laconii. Though nominally allies, the Laconii are effectively 'tributaries' of the far larger and more powerful Apolinu. Aghonus is located near Corinth. The Laconii control land-based trade between the peninsula and the outside world. The Laconii are small and weak, often raided by northerners.

There are also numerous small clans, hunting bands, and small hamlets scattered about. They are all below 100 souls.

The settlements of Delpha and Aghonus are the most powerful. Both have had over a generation of exposure to the Imperium's Periphery and possess technology that solidly makes them late-Copper to Bronze Age. The Delphi, Dimi, and Sesk are united in an alliance-confederation called Sympagis. The three ruling family-clans of each tribe have heavily intermarried. They are the Aneoa, the Tclem, and the Patrikosi. At the urging of Joseph, exogamy was promoted between not just the ruling family lines but also among the general population. The wife joined the husbands clan. In helped bring the communities together. After all, you are less likely to want to kill a Sesk if your sister is one too. While still independent of each other, the Triandria, that is the three chiefs, cooperate on things such as defense and trade. With Joseph's guidance, technology such as dams, mills, plows, and sewage systems spread through the Sympagis. Joseph also goes on periodic ministries through the region and beyond, opening clinics and spreading knowledge of basic medical care. After five years of tutelage under Joseph, Alala now serves as the main Phsyio of Delpha. All kinds of people, from craftsmen to laborers, are starting to congregate in Delpha and and to a lesser extent Dimi and Sesk. Joseph also began to mess around with gunpowder in his(limited) spare time. So far he's seen good success, but its not a priority. The True Faith has grown to encompass maybe 100 followers. Jesus Christ as a God of Medicine is universally accepted by the pagans in the region. Central granaries and food storage has also been created at the behest of Joseph, who planned on making sure the agricultural surplus would be stored for leaner times. Joseph, while not a chief and possessing no political power, is seen as either a holy man, a prophet, or a genius by the general populace. To the pagans, he is a holy man of the medicine god. To Christians, he is the first prophet. To the rest, he is a skilled man who has drastically improved their lots in life. Joseph also taught Alala Russian and English and was introducing the Latin Alphabet to these people. Slowly written word was spreading, limited by the materials upon which to write.

That's a cool story- like I said though, assuming these families pre-date Joseph's arrival, I'm not seeing the ancient Greeks making the leap from tribal kindred structures to four dominant families in all of Greece in the span of ~20-40 years, especially with no Author to push them forward. That's the premise that doesn't make sense; it is a logical method of political cohesion if somehow a tribe has managed to rise to prominence over a region larger than Sparta will control in 1000 BCE, but I don't buy that development having occurred due to the influence of a civilization about a thousand miles distant.

That would be like saying the people of Syria developed into a broadly unified polity in two generations because of the presence of a civilization in Egypt. History argues such effects are far more long-term and subtle.

I don't think you're understanding exactly what I am saying. First and foremost, these four entities have not subdivided Greece between them in what we would recognize as nation-states or city-states. Rather, they are merely the largest and most advanced entities in the region. The actual control of Delpha extends no farther than a few hours walk from Delpha. The majority of the land is unclaimed/smallish tribes/clans. Delpha and Aghonus, and to a lesser extent Ravenpol and Calibus, were the largest settlements on the peninsula when Joseph arrived and had, at the most complicated, an elder council and clan chief. I think you are misinterpreting who is dominating what as well. There's no four families dominating all of Greece. The Apolinu, Raveni, Calibri, and Delphi are not a single lineage but rather whole tribes and extended clans. They rules there own settlements and perhaps a few miles beyond. The land between these settlements belongs to hundreds of small settlements of negligible size that, as of yet, owe no allegiance to anyone but their own. The Aneoa, the Tclem, and the Patrikosi are the ruling lineages of three clans. They are currently three aligned simple chiefdoms, which is very much a copper age political structure. As for development from the Imperium, I meant it more so from a technical perspective. I have bronze tools that we traded for, ergo I am bronze age. That's more or less where they stood when Joseph arrived. After his arrival, he pushed for a deeper alliance through marriage and cooperation and the spread of 'modern' technology.

[G-Tech Corporation]

We did have bloomeries and knowing that coal made things stronger, just that we made a dye from copper and we made cast iron and advanced our metallurgy with Franklin, so if anything, Franklin would be somewhat better than Ego at ironworking but Ego is more versatile with how they use their iron.

Hmm. The only mention I can find of bloomeries and ironworking is in the designs that one of your lads exhibited to Franklin- so this would be a timeskip development?

For the second point, if you delve far back, to the first rendition of this RP that Franklin appeared in, he was instated as a protector of a the original, pretty small tribe, because he happened to look over the rest of the tribespeople. This position has evolved over time, and with the other things he's done he gained a lot of influence, and in fact is essentially the top military leader of the tribe. Sorry for not elaborating on this, but there was the last ten year time skip which I never got around to fully elaborating.

I see. Totally forgot that part of your story, honestly, it has been some time That's all quite fine then.

Returned from my trip. Now I can bar my room and start gaming and posting.

Excellent, happy to hear it. The timeskip has happened, and there's a new OOC you should probably check in on. What type of arc do you want Ted to have had during the last ten years?

That's a cool story- like I said though, assuming these families pre-date Joseph's arrival, I'm not seeing the ancient Greeks making the leap from tribal kindred structures to four dominant families in all of Greece in the span of ~20-40 years, especially with no Author to push them forward. That's the premise that doesn't make sense; it is a logical method of political cohesion if somehow a tribe has managed to rise to prominence over a region larger than Sparta will control in 1000 BCE, but I don't buy that development having occurred due to the influence of a civilization about a thousand miles distant.

That would be like saying the people of Syria developed into a broadly unified polity in two generations because of the presence of a civilization in Egypt. History argues such effects are far more long-term and subtle.

I don't think you're understanding exactly what I am saying. First and foremost, these four entities have not subdivided Greece between them in what we would recognize as nation-states or city-states. Rather, they are merely the largest and most advanced entities in the region. The actual control of Delpha extends no farther than a few hours walk from Delpha. The majority of the land is unclaimed/smallish tribes/clans. Delpha and Aghonus, and to a lesser extent Ravenpol and Calibus, were the largest settlements on the peninsula when Joseph arrived and had, at the most complicated, an elder council and clan chief. I think you are misinterpreting who is dominating what as well. There's no four families dominating all of Greece. The Apolinu, Raveni, Calibri, and Delphi are not a single lineage but rather whole tribes and extended clans. They rules there own settlements and perhaps a few miles beyond. The land between these settlements belongs to hundreds of small settlements of negligible size that, as of yet, owe no allegiance to anyone but their own. The Aneoa, the Tclem, and the Patrikosi are the ruling lineages of three clans. They are currently three aligned simple chiefdoms, which is very much a copper age political structure. As for development from the Imperium, I meant it more so from a technical perspective. I have bronze tools that we traded for, ergo I am bronze age. That's more or less where they stood when Joseph arrived. After his arrival, he pushed for a deeper alliance through marriage and cooperation and the spread of 'modern' technology.

Ah, yes, that makes much more sense. I thought you were positing those clans as dominant forces in the region, hegemons if you will, of the smaller clans and tribes. That wouldn't have been very logical; thus my confusion about unifying the Peloponnese etc. given nothing like city-states should really be manifesting just yet.

Carry on, carry on.