New Civilizations [OOC | Open]

[Kelmet]

I know its a uncomfortable subject...But any of you have slavery?

[Ulls]

I know its a uncomfortable subject...But any of you have slavery?

Ego does because of the lack of horses and cattle to rely on. That will change shortly.

[Leninist South Africa]

Not in Russia, and I don't ever plan to implement it. Our workforce is all largely voluntary, and captured prisoners are either executed, integrated into society, or abandoned with nothing.

[Holy Tedalonia]

In the midevil era pretty much nobles took all the cash they can and end up poorer than Venice which was a little tiny nation that got rich off of trade.

Then this will be unique then.

GIBRALTAR WILL BE MINE

Till Ego comes.

Hmm. Courts as in legal courts, or noble courts?

Noble ones heavily tested for merit.

Note Ulls you may think yourself as a European explorer, but you must remember that Europeans came (initially) to the Americas with a small amount of troops and conquered. They did this cuz they have a technology advantage. You however (against the Imperium) are outmatched, so IF Revlona beats you to Gibraltar. Don't expect the Imperium to let you go easily just cuz it's a far walk. They don't like being pushed around even though that's never happened.

On the feudalism subject. Tell me, how did a crappy little island with absolutely nothing ended up with more cash than every noble in Europe? It just doesn't work... it's heavily inefficient, because the king relies on the nobles to pay their taxes, and the noble expect crops from the peasants.

If the peasants don't get the required crop sum they lose their dinner and the nobles are now cropless and can't sell anything, and depending on the nobles wealth, the king is effected to. It removes the necessary power of the king when mismanagement happens, and he can't hold the noble accountable or he gets viewed as a tyrant...

[G-Tech Corporation]

I know its a uncomfortable subject...But any of you have slavery?

Ayerp. Time-delimited fairly light slavery, with rights, but slavery nonetheless. It is a rational solution to crime and punishment in antiquity, as well as a use for prisoners of war who cannot be ransomed or returned home for whatever reason.

[Ulls]

Then this will be unique then.



Till Ego comes.



Noble ones heavily tested for merit.

Note Ulls you may think yourself as a European explorer, but you must remember that Europeans came (initially) to the Americas with a small amount of troops and conquered. They did this cuz they have a technology advantage. You however (against the Imperium) are outmatched, so IF Revlona beats you to Gibraltar. Don't expect the Imperium to let you go easily just cuz it's a far walk. They don't like being pushed around even though that's never happened.

On the feudalism subject. Tell me, how did a crappy little island with absolutely nothing ended up with more cash than every noble in Europe? It just doesn't work... it's heavily inefficient, because the king relies on the nobles to pay their taxes, and the noble expect crops from the peasants.

If the peasants don't get the required crop sum they lose their dinner and the nobles are now cropless and can't sell anything, and depending on the nobles wealth, the king is effected to. It removes the necessary power of the king when mismanagement happens, and he can't hold the noble accountable or he gets viewed as a tyrant...

It was a joke, besides disease was the deciding factor in most colonization. Ego will be trading for their resources but the new idea with Turner and Olog's character will allow Jeb to start working on new things and give Ego a one up a bit on some of the first nations they come across. Though still outmatched by Imperium and Imperial powers but at a slight instead of large.

[Aidannadia]

Anyone know the generally slave-citizen ratio in proto-Egypt city states? I can't seem to find it exactly. I know later on, the pharaohs had mass amounts of slaves, but at the moment would the institution be limited given the low population outside of those early city-states?

[Kelmet]

Anyone know the generally slave-citizen ratio in proto-Egypt city states? I can't seem to find it exactly. I know later on, the pharaohs had mass amounts of slaves, but at the moment would the institution be limited given the low population outside of those early city-states?

Guessing I'd say a 1/3 of the population

[G-Tech Corporation]

Anyone know the generally slave-citizen ratio in proto-Egypt city states? I can't seem to find it exactly. I know later on, the pharaohs had mass amounts of slaves, but at the moment would the institution be limited given the low population outside of those early city-states?

I don't have a precise figure, but in general terms it would be quite low in this period, yes. Slaves were relatively expensive to obtain and keep- there are good reasons why the Pyramids were largely built with wage labor in the flood season instead of slavery, as we conventionally think.

[Ulls]

Still, I wonder if I should just have Jeb embrace the religion and become the Owl's Messenger and unite the people with rulers based on merit, eliminate the tribal idea and chieftains, then start streamlining the theocracy.

[Aidannadia]

Anyone know the generally slave-citizen ratio in proto-Egypt city states? I can't seem to find it exactly. I know later on, the pharaohs had mass amounts of slaves, but at the moment would the institution be limited given the low population outside of those early city-states?

Guessing I'd say a 1/3 of the population

Seems high.

Anyone know the generally slave-citizen ratio in proto-Egypt city states? I can't seem to find it exactly. I know later on, the pharaohs had mass amounts of slaves, but at the moment would the institution be limited given the low population outside of those early city-states?

I don't have a precise figure, but in general terms it would be quite low in this period, yes. Slaves were relatively expensive to obtain and keep- there are good reasons why the Pyramids were largely built with wage labor in the flood season instead of slavery, as we conventionally think.

I was just seeing that it's been suggested free citizens under orders from the state were used rather than the mass amounts of slaves that it would have taken. I actually was questioning how they could hold so many during the Middle Kingdom when I stumbled upon this, considering they didn't have the manpower or equipment to do it on such a massive scale the Europeans did.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Guessing I'd say a 1/3 of the population

Seems high.

I don't have a precise figure, but in general terms it would be quite low in this period, yes. Slaves were relatively expensive to obtain and keep- there are good reasons why the Pyramids were largely built with wage labor in the flood season instead of slavery, as we conventionally think.

I was just seeing that it's been suggested free citizens under orders from the state were used rather than the mass amounts of slaves that it would have taken. I actually was questioning how they could hold so many during the Middle Kingdom when I stumbled upon this, considering they didn't have the manpower or equipment to do it on such a massive scale the Europeans did.

Aye, quite so. There will be slavery, but not on a scale that we would think of as considerable.

[Conwy-Shire]

No compromise at all? I think it is a very fair compromise between the two possibilities of quadrupled land size with no appreciable instability and doubling land size with heavy instability.

Certainly one person can change the world- but one person's impact on the world is akin to a man turning a giant ship by hauling at the steering wheel. It will move as he steers it, but slowly, over time. It took six years for Viktor to proclaim the Imperium, ten for Norsca to develop longships. A fully fledged new system of government will take time to implement- and as far as I am concerned, ten years is too little time for that system to become so popular and universally accepted as to swallow up all polities around it within a hundred miles.

Yah, no compromise at all, because compromising means taking the other persons option into account, as opposed to finding the middle ground between the two options you have advanced.

Concerning other authors (including yourself) I find it hard to hold us to comparative account, though of course I cannot hold you to any objective judgement of realism. It may well take an Engineer like yourself six years to proclaim an autocratic form of government and to go from there, it may take an Army Captain like Kelmet ten years to shape a longship(s). At the same time you produced iron of good quality and use after 10 months, and Kelmet brought education, a War College, a "national identity", and Irrigation to Monrovia after one month.

link

and link

Now I'm not saying that these are godmodding, rushed, or otherwise. What I am saying is that different authors will focus on different things. Though you (G) may have a preference for 'show, not tell' in your IC, which means you leave out the 'boring things', you also have to remember that whatever you prioritise and put in the IC is the canon direction of your civilisation. My posts in the last IC and this one have revolved almost exclusively around administration and feeding people, so it would be expected that those are the civilisational forte for the author, just as you focused a lot (early on) on metallurgy, and Kelmet on creating a militaristic culture.

I am deeply willing to put this to rest though, so I will adopt the same stance you did concerning expansion:

Hmm, interesting. I can see why that would be an issue, but it is important, in that context, that I point out that the Imperium's population is very densely clustered for the ancient world. Most of her citizens live in the heavily settled vales of the Danube in Austria/Czechia/Romania/Hungary, with the areas that you see painted in on the map largely a case of possession rather than occupation...

[G-Tech Corporation]

Yah, no compromise at all, because compromising means taking the other persons option into account, as opposed to finding the middle ground between the two options you have advanced.

I hardly see how quadrupling in size is not the position you advanced- that was your map you put up, you presume? If it was supposed to come with a side of major instability, please say so, because that completely invalidates the rest of this discussion. But that was not my impression.

You put up a map that quadrupled (if not more, honestly) the size of the Confederation of Helios over the timeskip. I responded that that was rather large, for a period of ten years, and that it would be best if it was curtailed, over the course of the discussion bringing up Ego's example, wherein in ten years they too had expanded, but to a lesser degree, and with instability. I extrapolated that to a quadrupling of land carrying truly immense instability. It seems logical to me, if two minds cannot meet, to establish a compromise between the positions- insofar as there are two factors at play a) scale of expansion and b) instability of expansion, it would be wisest to split the difference.

So yes, a compromise would be little instability with a doubling of land area (accounting for your Author's ability with governance to avoid Ulls' major instability). One premise from my option, the doubling of land, one premise from your option, little instability. Alternatively, one premise from your option, the quadrupling of land, and one premise from my option, major instability.

I am deeply willing to put this to rest though, so I will adopt the same stance you did concerning expansion:

Surely you see how accomplishing that expansionism over the period of ten years as opposed to sixty, though, would lead to problems? The situations are not exactly one-to-one comparable. A space-filling empire could be logical, if that space-filling empire slowly forms and deals with things like banditry/secession/rebellion (problems resulting from its space-filling nature) as they come, but a space-filling empire like, say, Alexander's, that rapidly expands without taking the natural problems as they come over time risks serious problems in the future. It is a matter of the time-management of crises, the same for empires as economic unions.

[Holy Tedalonia]

What is with all the political murder Conway?

[Revlona]

Sooooo, is that a yes or a no?

That's a yes, but they probably won't get cool gear for a year or two.

I'm gonna give Robert a big Steel Warhammer.

Hehe, i hope someine gets where thats from

[Ulls]

That's a yes, but they probably won't get cool gear for a year or two.

I'm gonna give Robert a big Steel Warhammer.

Hehe, i hope someine gets where thats from

Will they have a cult that worships a twin-tail comet?

[Revlona]

I'm gonna give Robert a big Steel Warhammer.

Hehe, i hope someine gets where thats from

Will they have a cult that worships a twin-tail comet?

More like the Lord of light.

[Holy Tedalonia]

I'm gonna give Robert a big Steel Warhammer.

Hehe, i hope someine gets where thats from

Will they have a cult that worships a twin-tail comet?

Damn, if this cult ends up true, perhaps the city I'm going to name at Gibraltar probably shouldn't be called mordheim

[Kelmet]

Will they have a cult that worships a twin-tail comet?

More like the Lord of light.

For the OOC is dark and full of terrors.....

[Ulls]

More like the Lord of light.

For the OOC is dark and full of terrors.....

It's ok, the Night Owl protects those in the dark from the terrors within.

[Leninist South Africa]

Come to Russia, where you have the chance to move up the social hierarchy.

[Ulls]

Come to Russia, where you have the chance to move up the social hierarchy.

Might make a trip there through Europe and could help you with that gunpowder idea in exchange for gun schematics.

[Revlona]

Come to Russia, where you have the chance to move up the social hierarchy.

I will crack open some Russian heads, i hear that instead of blood Russians have vodka in there veins.

[Leninist South Africa]

Come to Russia, where you have the chance to move up the social hierarchy.

Might make a trip there through Europe and could help you with that gunpowder idea in exchange for gun schematics.

So you help us with gunpowder, and we teach you about how to make guns? Sounds pretty decent. Just as long as we agree to remain allies and friends.