Game of Thrones: A Rite of Conquest (Concluded) [OOC]

[Ism]

Why is the sigil of house highfalls a tree and not a waterfall?

1. The grey tree represents the Highfalls' castle, Stonebark Tower.
2. The background is composed of three parts, the edges are grey and the center is blue. This is to represent a waterfall, with the grey being the rock face and the blue being the waterfall.


Also, in case you guys didn't notice, I missed Valyria's apps last night, so I'll put them in the roster later.

I maintain that Dorne having any more than 20k is ridiculous, even pre conquest

Personally I would be inclined to agree with you. But GRRM apparently does not. I am basing my assessment of the Dornish numbers as being equal to those of the North and the Vale on GRRM's own statement to that effect.

But the North and the Vale have significantly different military numbers no? Also I'll put your app in the roster too, assuming Valyria doesn't have an official one up by the time I get on my computer.

[Of the Quendi]

But the North and the Vale have significantly different military numbers no? Also I'll put your app in the roster too, assuming Valyria doesn't have an official one up by the time I get on my computer.

I don't think so no. The SSM I quoted certainly doesn't confirm that. Thanks.

[Ism]

But the North and the Vale have significantly different military numbers no? Also I'll put your app in the roster too, assuming Valyria doesn't have an official one up by the time I get on my computer.

I don't think so no. The SSM I quoted certainly doesn't confirm that. Thanks.

Well then I'll probably have to reduce the size of my military, as I thought the Vale had around 45k troops in total, not 20k.

[Lunas Legion]

I don't think so no. The SSM I quoted certainly doesn't confirm that. Thanks.

Well then I'll probably have to reduce the size of my military, as I thought the Vale had around 45k troops in total, not 20k.

Yeah, I thought the Vale could muster around 45K.

[Helvetea]

Do we have to use canon houses?

[Tararli]

Name: (Self Entitled)Sir Braedon Cale
House: Cale (Not an actual house; he was a plebeian)
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Titles: (Self Entitled) Sir
House Seat: Fort Paenyris (In the stepstones) (he gained it as payment from one of his clients)
House Sigil:

Allegiance paid to: The highest bidder
Appearance (Picture appreciated):

Personality: He is an ambitious man, but the difference between him and another is that he has the talent and determination to back it up, while being extremely hard-working.
Naturally those qualities combined very well and made him an excellent general, but it also made him very arrogant.
Skills: A military tactician as brilliant as Napoleon.
Weaponry (If any): WIP
Military Strength: 500 men
Biography: (At least two well written paragraphs please): WIP
RP Example: WIP
Notes: WIP

[Of the Quendi]

Well then I'll probably have to reduce the size of my military, as I thought the Vale had around 45k troops in total, not 20k.

I don't think the Vale has only 20k, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the North most certainly doesn't. So maybe increase the Dornish number rather than reduce the North and Vale ones?

[Ism]

Do we have to use canon houses?

No, but there are restrictions on custom houses. Off the top of my head, no more than 1500 soldiers (probably less than that for certain regions), no valyrian steel weapons and you can't take a canon location as your capital/castle.

Well then I'll probably have to reduce the size of my military, as I thought the Vale had around 45k troops in total, not 20k.

I don't think the Vale has only 20k, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the North most certainly doesn't. So maybe increase the Dornish number rather than reduce the North and Vale ones?

The North raised 20k for the WOTFK right? I thought those were the numbers we were going with.

[Lunas Legion]

more than 1500 soldiers (probably less than that for certain regions), no valyrian steel weapons and you can't take a canon location as your capital/castle.

I don't think the Vale has only 20k, and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the North most certainly doesn't. So maybe increase the Dornish number rather than reduce the North and Vale ones?

The North raised 20k for the WOTFK right? I thought those were the numbers we were going with.

That was Robb's army. If you want the North's full levies, you'd need to add in the army that retook Winterfell plus the Mountain Clans and possibly a few others.

[The Valyria Empire]

Due to Robb needing to get to KL ASAP, he did not gather all the North. He got what he could and marched. The North can raise 45K is everyone is called and shows up, same with the Vale. Dorne is stated to have 45k but I believe they have somewhere between 25 and 35 in actuality.

Also Ism, while I appreciate the roster, you forgot myself and I don't put apps I haven't accepted up. I'll be working on that tonight.

[Of the Quendi]

The North raised 20k for the WOTFK right? I thought those were the numbers we were going with.

That was Robb's army. If you want the North's full levies, you'd need to add in the army that retook Winterfell plus the Mountain Clans and possibly a few others.

I think this raises an interesting question that I have always found irksome when apps ask for military numbers; namely what numbers we are talking about. Are we talking about a quickly mobilized field army (like Robb's twenty thousand), the total mobilization of troops or the theoretical limit made up of a total muster of every able bodied man in a territory. These numbers are obviously very different and I could see 45,000 being the Norths theoretical max with twenty thousand obviously being what Robb could muster for his war.

[Ism]

The North raised 20k for the WOTFK right? I thought those were the numbers we were going with.

That was Robb's army. If you want the North's full levies, you'd need to add in the army that retook Winterfell plus the Mountain Clans and possibly a few others.

I think this raises an interesting question that I have always found irksome when apps ask for military numbers; namely what numbers we are talking about. Are we talking about a quickly mobilized field army (like Robb's twenty thousand), the total mobilization of troops or the theoretical limit made up of a total muster of every able bodied man in a territory. These numbers are obviously very different and I could see 45,000 being the Norths theoretical max with twenty thousand obviously being what Robb could muster for his war.

That is a fair point, I was clearly misremembering. I'm surprised Dor e can raise that much though. Seems odd.

Due to Robb needing to get to KL ASAP, he did not gather all the North. He got what he could and marched. The North can raise 45K is everyone is called and shows up, same with the Vale. Dorne is stated to have 45k but I believe they have somewhere between 25 and 35 in actuality.

Also Ism, while I appreciate the roster, you forgot myself and I don't put apps I haven't accepted up. I'll be working on that tonight.

Yeah I know, I realized this morning that I'd missed yours. As for the unaccepted ones, I did that mainly so all the apps you hadn't reviewed would be in that one place, so you could just click the links instead of scrolling through all the pages looking for apps.

Edit: I added your apps Valyria. Also, Of the Quendi, I did not to add yours as I just saw it was a WIP. And again, the apps starting with Dentali's are, so far as I know, unaccepted.

[Slakonian]

If for nothing else than that the Stormlands of this era extends further north to the mouth of the Wendwater and part of Massey's Hook, I feel it should have more men to call on by at least a few thousand.

To reference another writer's take on it:

Although you have a valid point I think the main reason Stormlands were thinly populated was due they lords are very warlike people, I mean the Durrandos just years before the Conquest had involved themsleves in campaigns in the disputed lands while during ASOIF books, the reason why Stormlords cannot raise big hosts was due during Robert's Rebellion cost dearly as many soldiers were lost as a result to Robert's early defeats and subsquent Reach invasion on the Stormlands.

Yet again we do not have "detailed" accounts of population census during the Conquest, surely it is better than Robert's time but not that big either.

Gonna stick this, hopefully it will end OoC wars

[Warg the Immortal]

-SNIP-

1. Commoners don't have surnames, when they are knighted they generally are called "of Something", or "the Something" (ex: Ser Bronn of the Blackwater, Ser Galladon of Morne, Ser Duncan the Tall)
2. You cannot just call yourself a knight, you need to prove it. This is seen in both the cases of Ser Duncan the Tall and of Ser Glendon Flowers
3. That sigil is pretty overly complicated and extravagant for both the GoT universe and a "hedge knight"
4. Where is a random, non-knighted commoner getting 500 troops from? This isn't the disputed lands where people just start mercenary companies
5. How is a commoner learning military tactics "as good as napoleon"
6. The stepstones are ruled by pirates, so was this "fort Paenyris" (which doesn't sound at all like other canon location in the stepstones), owned by pirates prior to his ownership of it?
7. Why would pirates give up a stronghold to a westerosi "knight" and not just pay him in coin?
8. Why would pirates hire a westerosi "knight" for help, when there are companies far closer in Essos?

[Of the Quendi]

That is a fair point, I was clearly misremembering. I'm surprised Dor e can raise that much though. Seems odd.

Edit: I added your apps Valyria. Also, Of the Quendi, I did not to add yours as I just saw it was a WIP. And again, the apps starting with Dentali's are, so far as I know, unaccepted.

Me too but since thats what the SSM says I think its the most appropriate number to use. Other than GRRM's own words any assessment of the military might of Dorne would be pure speculation.

As for my app I have finished it now.

[Jhet]

Well thought as much myself, remember that time he believed that Westeros was the size of England despite GRRM saying being that of Latin/South America

TBF half the time it is as if George forgets that fact as well. Fans tried to measure the actual size of the continent via the wall (100 leagues = 300 miles = however many pixels) and it didn't match his claim. But hey, who really cares

If for nothing else than that the Stormlands of this era extends further north to the mouth of the Wendwater and part of Massey's Hook, I feel it should have more men to call on by at least a few thousand.

Nothing suggests that there is any real population within the kingswood, which is the only de facto area that the Durrandons control - Massey's Hook is with Aegon and the area around Blackwater Bay is desolate (and will go Aegon immediately) due to the fighting and lack of strong Durrandon presence.

The Stormlands has only enough trade to fill the port of a single market town (which deals with all of its trade). That is nothing. Even the North has a city for it.

Personally I would be inclined to agree with you. But GRRM apparently does not. I am basing my assessment of the Dornish numbers as being equal to those of the North and the Vale on GRRM's own statement to that effect.

Me too but since thats what the SSM says I think its the most appropriate number to use. Other than GRRM's own words any assessment of the military might of Dorne would be pure speculation.

tl;dr that SSM is obsolete.

That comment was made in 2002 when he had to come up with an acceptable answer. The book that explicitly states that Dorne cannot match the strength of the other kingdoms came out in 2005, after he had thought about it and changed the information accordingly. He has done this retconning throughout the series as it evolved. At one point the North was thinly populated and the most prominent vassals of the Starks were Glover and Tallhart (seen when they are the ones who are assigned to Moat Cailin). Now we have Dustins and Ryswells and crofters and fishermen and mountain clansmen.

For the Vale we have to use it, as we don't have anything else and it would need a reasonable strength to fight the North to a standstill, or the riverlands. For the North we know there is at least 30k if they have time to raise their men-at-arms, and during asoiaf we see ~28k and that is with all the haste and treachery and lack of enthusiasm: Robb's 20k, the 2.6k Cassel/Bolton army at Winterfell, 3.9k Stannis army (took away 300 to represent Cassel's survivors), 1.2k Karstark/Umber/Manderlys with Bolton, the Wild Hares, an indeterminate number of other vassals with Bolton, as well as the hordes Ryswell/Dustin/Manderly have stored away, in addition to the Crannogmen and Skagosi, and the Hornwood/Manderly/Bolton men who fought over the Hornwood.

[Blackledge]

I maintain that Dorne having any more than 20k is ridiculous, even pre conquest

It's not that ridiculous. It's the size of Turkey, it has some decent land to farm in places. It has to at least have more than the Iron Islands.

Personally I would be inclined to agree with you. But GRRM apparently does not. I am basing my assessment of the Dornish numbers as being equal to those of the North and the Vale on GRRM's own statement to that effect.

However, that is taking that SSM out of context. GRRM said that years before A Feast For Crows. Back when Dorne was still said to have 50,000 spears, which isn't far from the levy counts estimated for the North and Vale. AFFC's reveal has been acknowledged as something of a soft retcon given the region's difficulties.

[Blackledge]

Although you have a valid point I think the main reason Stormlands were thinly populated was due they lords are very warlike people, I mean the Durrandos just years before the Conquest had involved themsleves in campaigns in the disputed lands while during ASOIF books, the reason why Stormlords cannot raise big hosts was due during Robert's Rebellion cost dearly as many soldiers were lost as a result to Robert's early defeats and subsquent Reach invasion on the Stormlands.

Yet again we do not have "detailed" accounts of population census during the Conquest, surely it is better than Robert's time but not that big either.

That does make sense. Like I said with Dorne in the last thread, successive wars do have an impact on populations for generations. Clever handling of the land and populace, like the Gardeners did, probably could have led to a larger pool of nobles and smallfolk. But I will agree the last few Durrandon kings haven't been that clever.

[Jhet]

With regards to the Stormlands. You cannot get around the issue of most of it being hills, mountains, and thick forest. You can't get big agricultural works in them with their tech level. Granted wars and death affect the manpower pool as an absolute and in the short term, however given the general rule of feudalism armies are:
arable land = soldiers (either through lords/knights or taxes which gives men-at-arms)

(EDIT:) The stormlands didn't contribute to Robert's Rebellion because their army was routed (whether by Robert or Randyll) and then vanished into thin air because George needed the low point of the rebellion (Robert was within the grasp of the crown).

And again, their trade center is a market town, whereas the North (sparsely populated) has a city.

It's not that ridiculous. It's the size of Turkey, it has some decent land to farm in places. It has to at least have more than the Iron Islands.

Decent is pushing it a bit. And yeah, everyone (including Elio) accepts that the Iron Isles are not one of the Seven Kingdoms. They are a fantasy raider society who go by their own rules.

"more than three-quarters of the land is an arid wastelands. Nor is the long souther n coast of Dorne more hospitable...with few protected anchorages. Those ships that do put ashore there... find little to sustain them; there are no forests,,,a scarcity of game, few farmsm and fewer villages... Even freshwater is hard to come by... there are no cities...They came to westeros not on longships... over the land bridge from essos... the eastern shores of Dorne would inevitable have been where they first set foot... few, however, chose to remain there, for the lands they encountered were far from welcoming... The eastern half of Dorne is largely barren scrub, its dry, stony soil yielding little, even when irrigated...Most of them settled along the banks of the river they named the Greenblood."

The Dornish agriculture is only to be found along the river, and in the mountains with crofters. As well as around small oasises, which naturally evolved into the keeps we know. In addition to being the least populated of the Seven, it stands to reason that their military will be far weaker than the next assumed weakest kingdom, the Stormlands (30-35k is the given range for them). And the Dornish inflated numbers are 50k. That is generally the logic where we just half the 50k to get 25k real numbers.

[Blackledge]

Decent is pushing it a bit. And yeah, everyone (including Elio) accepts that the Iron Isles are not one of the Seven Kingdoms. They are a fantasy raider society who go by their own rules.

Decent is subjective. I consider 25,000 decent compared to less than 20,000. The "Seven Kingdoms" is a reference to the seven kingdoms that existed when Aegon conquered Westeros (sans Dorne). There are nine constituent regions in the AGOT era.

[Sil Arion]

Hm. A little awkward that I reserved Dorne last night and return to find Quendi's already done so before I post my own app. Very well. I suppose I'll take another house then. Or perhaps something more unique? Are sellsword companies allowed? Certainly, any character would have to wait for employment by whatever Westerosi lord[s], but I'm admittedly tempted to try it. Never have done so before, nor seen it. Maybe a pseudo-Golden Company predecessor in terms of style and size? Hm.

Is that alright with you, Valyria?

[The Valyria Empire]

Hm. A little awkward that I reserved Dorne last night and return to find Quendi's already done so before I post my own app. Very well. I suppose I'll take another house then. Or perhaps something more unique? Are sellsword companies allowed? Certainly, any character would have to wait for employment by whatever Westerosi lord[s], but I'm admittedly tempted to try it. Never have done so before, nor seen it. Maybe a pseudo-Golden Company predecessor in terms of style and size? Hm.

Is that alright with you, Valyria?

You reserved first, thus the reservation goes to you. Martell is still yours, sorry Quendi.

[Sil Arion]

You reserved first, thus the reservation goes to you. Martell is still yours, sorry Quendi.

Thanks, Valyria, but it's alright if Quendi wants 'em. While playing the Martells would be fun, I frankly wouldn't mind trying something different. Such as a sellsword company, or otherwise.

[Blackledge]

Thanks, Valyria, but it's alright if Quendi wants 'em. While playing the Martells would be fun, I frankly wouldn't mind trying something different. Such as a sellsword company, or otherwise.

What about a major/rich lord bannerman? Hightower, Reyne, Bolton, Royce, Blackwood, Bracken, Rowan, etc. There's quite a few.

[Lunas Legion]

Thanks, Valyria, but it's alright if Quendi wants 'em. While playing the Martells would be fun, I frankly wouldn't mind trying something different. Such as a sellsword company, or otherwise.

What about a major/rich lord bannerman? Hightower, Reyne, Bolton, Royce, Blackwood, Bracken, Rowan, etc. There's quite a few.

We do need a Tully IIRC.