Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice & Fire [OOC] -Concluded-

[Blackledge]

The population of Dorne was hardly affected in the War of Conquest. Rhaenys flew down, had a chat with the yellow toad, and went home leaving Dorne unconquered for the time.

If you read your own source you'd see you're wrong.

The Dragon's Wroth

Aegon's grief at the passing of Rhaenys was great; the following two years were known as the Dragon's Wroth. The Targaryens burned every Dornish stronghold at least once, with the exception of Sunspear. In Dorne it was said that the Targaryens feared that Princess Meria had cunning means of slaying dragons purchased from Lys, but Archmaester Timotty in his Conjectures suggests that Aegon hoped that the Dornish would turn against the Martells. However, the Dornish lords and smallfolk remained loyal, despite the letters dispatched from the Dornish Marches to the Dornish houses claiming the Martells had buyed their safety from the dragons.

Aegon and his remaining sister-queen, Visenya, placed bounties on the heads of Dornish lords and in turn the Dornish put bounties on the price of the Targaryens and their allies. Aegon and Visenya were assaulted on the streets of King's Landing and, if not for Visenya and Dark Sister, they would have been killed. This attack led to the forming of the elite royal bodyguard known as the Kingsguard in 10 AC. Visenya personally chose the men herself.[4] Lord Fell was murdered and the Wyl of Wyl committed atrocities, particularly in Fawnton and Old Oak.
Peace

When Princess Meria Martell passed away in 13 AC, her elderly son, Nymor, became ruling Prince of Sunspear. Having enough of war he sent his daughter, Princess Deria Martell, to King's Landing with an escort as an peace envoy. She carried the skull of Rhaenys's dragon Meraxes as well as a letter. The delegation's arrival with the sight of the skull angered several in the court, such as Orys and Visenya. Deria delivered her father's terms, stating Dorne wanted peace, but the peace of two sovereign kingdoms. Aegon was about to refuse this offer until Deria placed her father's letter in the Conqueror's hand.

Atop the Iron Throne, Aegon read a message delivered from a Prince of Dorne. No one knows what was in that letter, as Aegon never spoke of it thereafter. Some say he rose from the throne clutching the letter, blood trickling from his hand. Some maesters and historians speculated that the Dornish held Rhaeneys as an injured hostage and the Dornish would agree to end her suffering if Aegon ended the war. Whatever was in that letter moved the Conqueror to agree to peace terms and withdraw his forces from Dorne.

Hardly affected indeed.

[The Valyria Empire]

Black, you literally confirmed my statement. Aegon burned the fortresses, that's it. They rebuilt them later, the Dornish hardly lost any forces due to them using guerrilla tactics and the salt mines to hide. Dorne is one of the few places in Westeros where constantly war has hardly plagued them, the other being the Vale.

Anyway. I'll start work on Rite some time soon, haven't decided if I'll allow veterans to reserve their houses as that might be a bit unfair to new comers.

[Blackledge]

Black, you literally confirmed my statement. Aegon burned the fortresses, that's it. They rebuilt them later, the Dornish hardly lost any forces due to them using guerrilla tactics and the salt mines to hide. Dorne is one of the few places in Westeros where constantly war has hardly plagued them, the other being the Vale.

I'm afraid you misunderstood what was written. It wasn't just castles that were burnt. People lived in and around them. Those are their major population sources that, as is the case in Dorne, are built around the few sources of water. For two years they burned the castles, and the holdfasts, villages and towns of Dorne.

To quote A World of Ice and Fire:

Dorne was a blighted, burning ruin by this time... Even the smallfolk refused to yield, and the toll in lives was uncountable.

This is understandable because Dorne isn't a place for large numbers of people to maintain guerilla war for two years without returning to sources of water. They were yielding castles to armies, not dragons. Hence why they were able to kill a dragon at one castle. Plus they sent out armies of ther own, into the Dornish Marchers and to Oldtown that undoubtedly suffered losses.

If you haven't read A World of Ice and Fire yet, I recommend it. It greatly expands on the First Dornish War and the Dragon's Wroth. I'd also recommend Steven Attewell's Race For the Iron Throne blog for a meta look at the ASOIAF universe. http://racefortheironthrone.tumblr.com/post/135854574796/do-you-think-the-dornish-could-at-one-time-raise

Edit: And all of this doesn't even take into account the Second and Third Dornish Wars, where the Lords Tyrell were literally waging a chevauchée campaign of putting Dornish smallfolk to the sword and burning all their population centers. And that was less than a century and a half before AGOT takes place. With regards to Westerosi wars since the conquest I might estimate only the Riverlands have suffered more than Dorne.

[Dentali]

Black, you literally confirmed my statement. Aegon burned the fortresses, that's it. They rebuilt them later, the Dornish hardly lost any forces due to them using guerrilla tactics and the salt mines to hide. Dorne is one of the few places in Westeros where constantly war has hardly plagued them, the other being the Vale.

I'm afraid you misunderstood what was written. It wasn't just castles that were burnt. People lived in and around them. Those are their major population sources that, as is the case in Dorne, are built around the few sources of water. For two years they burned the castles, and the holdfasts, villages and towns of Dorne.

To quote A World of Ice and Fire:

Dorne was a blighted, burning ruin by this time... Even the smallfolk refused to yield, and the toll in lives was uncountable.

This is understandable because Dorne isn't a place for large numbers of people to maintain guerilla war for two years without returning to sources of water. They were yielding castles to armies, not dragons. Hence why they were able to kill a dragon at one castle. Plus they sent out armies of ther own, into the Dornish Marchers and to Oldtown that undoubtedly suffered losses.

If you haven't read A World of Ice and Fire yet, I recommend it. It greatly expands on the First Dornish War and the Dragon's Wroth. I'd also recommend Steven Attewell's Race For the Iron Throne blog for a meta look at the ASOIAF universe. http://racefortheironthrone.tumblr.com/post/135854574796/do-you-think-the-dornish-could-at-one-time-raise

Edit: And all of this doesn't even take into account the Second and Third Dornish Wars, where the Lords Tyrell were literally waging a chevauchée campaign of putting Dornish smallfolk to the sword and burning all their population centers. And that was less than a century and a half before AGOT takes place. With regards to Westerosi wars since the conquest I might estimate only the Riverlands have suffered more than Dorne.

The Dornish Army was swelled by the intake a the Rhoynar people. It was an artificial inflation and too large to be really sustainable. It declined until the First Dornish war where is reached a stable number

[Blackledge]

The Dornish Army was swelled by the intake a the Rhoynar people. It was an artificial inflation and too large to be really sustainable. It declined until the First Dornish war where is reached a stable number

I would think it's a tad more complicated than that, Dentali, though I do understand your view on it. The Rhoynish arrival was around 1,000 years before AGOT, so say 700 before the Conquest. It was overwhelmingly women and children since the men had presumably perished in the war with Valyria. Given Nymeria's War, how it took years to complete, and that the Rhoynish influence was also never completed across Dorne, I would suggest that it did not have a large enough demographic impact to swell a Dornish army for more than a generation. But we also can't entirely guess because we don't know how populated Dorne was before their arrival, or even how many arrived since the Rhoynar landed at other locations first and lost many of their initial numbers in people and ships before they found Westeros. By the time of the Conquest we still have Stony Dornishmen who follow the Andal practices of inheritance going to men before women, etc, showing Rhoynish customs did not conquer Dorne any more than Rhoynish people did.

Of course the numbers game will always be a bit of a topic debate for ASOIAF for a variety of reasons. Look at the Field of Fire, where the Lannisters and Gardeners together had a host of 55,000, compared to the 60-70,000 Reachmen alone Renly was able to gather for his host at Bitterbridge in ACOK.

[Dentali]

The Dornish Army was swelled by the intake a the Rhoynar people. It was an artificial inflation and too large to be really sustainable. It declined until the First Dornish war where is reached a stable number

I would think it's a tad more complicated than that, Dentali, though I do understand your view on it. The Rhoynish arrival was around 1,000 years before AGOT, so say 700 before the Conquest. It was overwhelmingly women and children since the men had presumably perished in the war with Valyria. Given Nymeria's War, how it took years to complete, and that the Rhoynish influence was also never completed across Dorne, I would suggest that it did not have a large enough demographic impact to swell a Dornish army for more than a generation. But we also can't entirely guess because we don't know how populated Dorne was before their arrival, or even how many arrived since the Rhoynar landed at other locations first and lost many of their initial numbers in people and ships before they found Westeros. By the time of the Conquest we still have Stony Dornishmen who follow the Andal practices of inheritance going to men before women, etc, showing Rhoynish customs did not conquer Dorne any more than Rhoynish people did.

Of course the numbers game will always be a bit of a topic debate for ASOIAF for a variety of reasons. Look at the Field of Fire, where the Lannisters and Gardeners together had a host of 55,000, compared to the 60-70,000 Reachmen alone Renly was able to gather for his host at Bitterbridge in ACOK.

I know its put simply, point being the numbers of the Dornish were never at 50k, the desert region simply can't support that population. The Rhoynar definitely boosted the population, and the First Dornish War diminished it. Subsequent Dornish Wars were incredibly bloody for the Dornish but within a few generations seemed to have replensihed the population to the same levels. They are consistently able to raise a similar amount of troops, as are most regions in Westeros. The numbers always appear to be stable from the time of Aegons conquest to the WOTFKs

[Blackledge]

I know its put simply, point being the numbers of the Dornish were never at 50k, the desert region simply can't support that population. The Rhoynar definitely boosted the population, and the First Dornish War diminished it. Subsequent Dornish Wars were incredibly bloody for the Dornish but within a few generations seemed to have replensihed the population to the same levels. They are consistently able to raise a similar amount of troops, as are most regions in Westeros. The numbers always appear to be stable from the time of Aegons conquest to the WOTFKs

The point is we don't actually know they were never at it, because we only see them after three demographically devastating wars. My point earlier is that there are countries today that have not demographically fully recovered from wars over a century ago, and the same could hold true for Dorne. Especially in a hard land like that, it's not usually so easy to bounce back. Which might be a reason Doran chose to encourage misconceptions about Dorne's military strength in the AGOT era.

Dorne is something like more than 775,000 square kilometers. It's the size of Turkey. Given anything but a demographics crisis that never recovered from multiple invasions and occupations, mass-murder of the civilian populace, and the burning of all but one population center, Dorne likely really did have the ability to project 50,000 spears in the past. Empire of similar size in similar geographical conditions have done better.

At least it's something to think about rather than outright dismiss.

And if the RP is set in the past, it would give a Dornish player something to consider rather than forcing them to turtle.

[The Valyria Empire]

I would think it's a tad more complicated than that, Dentali, though I do understand your view on it. The Rhoynish arrival was around 1,000 years before AGOT, so say 700 before the Conquest. It was overwhelmingly women and children since the men had presumably perished in the war with Valyria. Given Nymeria's War, how it took years to complete, and that the Rhoynish influence was also never completed across Dorne, I would suggest that it did not have a large enough demographic impact to swell a Dornish army for more than a generation. But we also can't entirely guess because we don't know how populated Dorne was before their arrival, or even how many arrived since the Rhoynar landed at other locations first and lost many of their initial numbers in people and ships before they found Westeros. By the time of the Conquest we still have Stony Dornishmen who follow the Andal practices of inheritance going to men before women, etc, showing Rhoynish customs did not conquer Dorne any more than Rhoynish people did.

Of course the numbers game will always be a bit of a topic debate for ASOIAF for a variety of reasons. Look at the Field of Fire, where the Lannisters and Gardeners together had a host of 55,000, compared to the 60-70,000 Reachmen alone Renly was able to gather for his host at Bitterbridge in ACOK.

I know its put simply, point being the numbers of the Dornish were never at 50k, the desert region simply can't support that population. The Rhoynar definitely boosted the population, and the First Dornish War diminished it. Subsequent Dornish Wars were incredibly bloody for the Dornish but within a few generations seemed to have replensihed the population to the same levels. They are consistently able to raise a similar amount of troops, as are most regions in Westeros. The numbers always appear to be stable from the time of Aegons conquest to the WOTFKs

Population has never been something George has really focused on. Most of the time, the Lord/King is never able to field all the men he could potentially as they are usually rushed. Plus we have to remember that Daeron lied about the strength of Dorne which they have held on to until modern time so we'll never truly know the true strength of Dorne. What we do know is that they are not ones for going to direct combat.

EDIT due to the post above: Well it's probably best for the Dornish to turtle. They have great natural defenses and can hide from dragons. They easily just bleed out the Targaryen forces. Perhaps the player will look for other opportunities. Anyway, I'm beginning work on the RP tonight. If you want an idea of what it will be like, check out Century of Blood. A lot of the rules there will apply to this RP.

[Ism]

I know its put simply, point being the numbers of the Dornish were never at 50k, the desert region simply can't support that population. The Rhoynar definitely boosted the population, and the First Dornish War diminished it. Subsequent Dornish Wars were incredibly bloody for the Dornish but within a few generations seemed to have replensihed the population to the same levels. They are consistently able to raise a similar amount of troops, as are most regions in Westeros. The numbers always appear to be stable from the time of Aegons conquest to the WOTFKs

The point is we don't actually know they were never at it, because we only see them after three demographically devastating wars. My point earlier is that there are countries today that have not demographically fully recovered from wars over a century ago, and the same could hold true for Dorne. Especially in a hard land like that, it's not usually so easy to bounce back. Which might be a reason Doran chose to encourage misconceptions about Dorne's military strength in the AGOT era.

Dorne is something like more than 775,000 square kilometers. It's the size of Turkey. Given anything but a demographics crisis that never recovered from multiple invasions and occupations, mass-murder of the civilian populace, and the burning of all but one population center, Dorne likely really did have the ability to project 50,000 spears in the past. Empire of similar size in similar geographical conditions have done better.

At least it's something to think about rather than outright dismiss.

And if the RP is set in the past, it would give a Dornish player something to consider rather than forcing them to turtle.

But did those empires rely on a feudal system? That might hurt Dorne's ability to raise a sizable force.

[Blackledge]

EDIT due to the post above: Well it's probably best for the Dornish to turtle. They have great natural defenses and can hide from dragons. They easily just bleed out the Targaryen forces. Perhaps the player will look for other opportunities. Anyway, I'm beginning work on the RP tonight. If you want an idea of what it will be like, check out Century of Blood. A lot of the rules there will apply to this RP.

Granted, turtling isn't the worst option. But in some ways in can be limiting. One of the best ASOIAF RPs I've ever been in was one done back when 50,000 spears was still canon, and it made Dorne a real factor in the game of thrones.

But did those empires rely on a feudal system? That might hurt Dorne's ability to raise a sizable force.

The Dornish system, in no small part thanks to the Rhoynish infusion, appears different from the rest of Westeros in some ways. Women being fighters, common people having a real interest in politics, and even the existence of the Dornish identity sets it apart from the other kingdoms. Which could be strengths in many ways. Mayhaps the fifty thousands spears are half male and half female? Would a man shot from a mounted archer care if his attacker were man or a woman?

Perhaps we could use something like this as a bonus trait or advantage for a Dornish player.

[Nuxipal]

So we are doing the Rite of Conquest first then. Decisions to make now.

[The Valyria Empire]

Just like Century I will be playing Aegon due to the power they wield and I have yet to find someone I can trust.

[Warg the Immortal]

EDIT due to the post above: Well it's probably best for the Dornish to turtle. They have great natural defenses and can hide from dragons. They easily just bleed out the Targaryen forces. Perhaps the player will look for other opportunities. Anyway, I'm beginning work on the RP tonight. If you want an idea of what it will be like, check out Century of Blood. A lot of the rules there will apply to this RP.

Granted, turtling isn't the worst option. But in some ways in can be limiting. One of the best ASOIAF RPs I've ever been in was one done back when 50,000 spears was still canon, and it made Dorne a real factor in the game of thrones.

But did those empires rely on a feudal system? That might hurt Dorne's ability to raise a sizable force.

The Dornish system, in no small part thanks to the Rhoynish infusion, appears different from the rest of Westeros in some ways. Women being fighters, common people having a real interest in politics, and even the existence of the Dornish identity sets it apart from the other kingdoms. Which could be strengths in many ways. Mayhaps the fifty thousands spears are half male and half female? Would a man shot from a mounted archer care if his attacker were man or a woman?

Perhaps we could use something like this as a bonus trait or advantage for a Dornish player.

Drone isn't the only kingdom to field women fighters, particularly the upper half of the North as well as the Neck have shown female fighters.

[Dentali]

Just like Century I will be playing Aegon due to the power they wield and I have yet to find someone I can trust.

Can I reserve the Starks then?

[Utceforp]

Just like Century I will be playing Aegon due to the power they wield and I have yet to find someone I can trust.

Can I reserve the Starks then?

Gonna play a fictional Stark vassal house, reserving the eastern coastline from the Stony Shore up to Sea Dragon Point.

[Dentali]

Can I reserve the Starks then?

Gonna play a fictional Stark vassal house, reserving the eastern coastline from the Stony Shore up to Sea Dragon Point.

I dont think he will accept reservations yet but you should take the old bolton lands since I doubt they survive the books

[The Valyria Empire]

Gonna play a fictional Stark vassal house, reserving the eastern coastline from the Stony Shore up to Sea Dragon Point.

I dont think he will accept reservations yet but you should take the old bolton lands since I doubt they survive the books

We're aren't doing Dream of Spring first. We're doing Rite of Conquest, thus that's why I'm controlling Aegon due to Balerion.

[Warg the Immortal]

Can I reserve the Starks then?

Gonna play a fictional Stark vassal house, reserving the eastern coastline from the Stony Shore up to Sea Dragon Point.

Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore are on the west though. Also thats a very large area for a custom house to control

[Utceforp]

Gonna play a fictional Stark vassal house, reserving the eastern coastline from the Stony Shore up to Sea Dragon Point.

Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore are on the west though. Also thats a very large area for a custom house to control

Not sure why I said east, whoops.

Also, it's a large but shitty area poor in resources and population. There's a reason why, despite being as big as the other Kingdoms combined, the North is only equal in military strength to the Vale or Dorne.

[Warg the Immortal]

Sea Dragon Point and the Stony Shore are on the west though. Also thats a very large area for a custom house to control

Not sure why I said east, whoops.

Also, it's a large but shitty area poor in resources and population. There's a reason why, despite being as big as the other Kingdoms combined, the North is only equal in military strength to the Vale or Dorne.

I don't think Sea Dragon point is that shitty of an area. Asha seemed to think she could develop it into a kingdom for herself, and it was at one point a sovereign kingdom ruled by the Warg Kings

[Blackledge]

Drone isn't the only kingdom to field women fighters, particularly the upper half of the North as well as the Neck have shown female fighters.

Yeah, those are more the exception. Dorne is much more egalitarian when it comes to men and women fighting. The women in the Neck is one, Meera Reed, and the women in the far north are just the ones of Bear Island who fight because their menfolk have gone to war. Dacey Mormont is portrayed as the exception, not the rule.

[Blackledge]

Can I reserve the Starks then?

Gonna play a fictional Stark vassal house, reserving the eastern coastline from the Stony Shore up to Sea Dragon Point.

Isn't that Stark land? Would there be a reason they'd give it up? Or would it be a fictional masterly house (like the Glovers and Tallharts)?

[Warg the Immortal]

Drone isn't the only kingdom to field women fighters, particularly the upper half of the North as well as the Neck have shown female fighters.

Yeah, those are more the exception. Dorne is much more egalitarian when it comes to men and women fighting. The women in the Neck is one, Meera Reed, and the women in the far north are just the ones of Bear Island who fight because their menfolk have gone to war. Dacey Mormont is portrayed as the exception, not the rule.

Its pretty similar in Dorne, I can't think of any female warriors offhand who aren't nobility. We don't really see any examples of generic Dornish infantrymen, soldiers or guards that are women

[Blackledge]

Its pretty similar in Dorne, I can't think of any female warriors offhand who aren't nobility. We don't really see any examples of generic Dornish infantrymen, soldiers or guards that are women

That may be the problem that we haven't seen much of Dorne at all. In A World of Ice and Fire, for example, we're given examples of generic Dornish women fighting. Not so for anywhere else. GRRM makes note of it, probably a carryover from the Rhoynar.

[Utceforp]

Gonna play a fictional Stark vassal house, reserving the eastern coastline from the Stony Shore up to Sea Dragon Point.

Isn't that Stark land? Would there be a reason they'd give it up? Or would it be a fictional masterly house (like the Glovers and Tallharts)?

Where did you get that map? Half of the land marked as "Stark land" is ruled by the Glovers.