Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice & Fire [OOC] -Concluded-

[Great Franconia and Verana]

The Fords was an emotional bid to regain face and earn some renown.

But I'll totally agree with you if its "top five greatest battle victories in the Wot5K". Seeing as there is only really five pitched battles.

The Fords Robb's marriage doomed Robb's campaign, it was an egotistical exercise that screwed over everyone else. It won renown for about 5 minutes.

Fixed that for you.
Sure, the Ford certainly did not help Robb, it is also a gross overstatement to say it doomed Robb's campaign. Really, the two biggest reasons for Robbs defeat, imo, was firstly his marriage, and secondly the Greyjoy invasion.

Robb deserved to lose. He played the game poorly and lost. He was good at winning battles but failed at overall Kingship, deep strategic thinking, and political maneuverings.

I'm not saying I wanted him to lose, I am simply saying that Tywin was able to outsmart him, and just because we like Robb does not mean we should overlook his many glaring flaws as a ruler.

[The Novakian Empire]

Yeah!

[Great Franconia and Verana]

Seeing as though Nux has not posted in quite some time, I am just going to have Arianne do what I had planned for her, and go back in time to the meeting between Humfrey and Doran later.

[Eraus]

The Fords Robb's marriage doomed Robb's campaign, it was an egotistical exercise that screwed over everyone else. It won renown for about 5 minutes.

Fixed that for you.
Sure, the Ford certainly did not help Robb, it is also a gross overstatement to say it doomed Robb's campaign. Really, the two biggest reasons for Robbs defeat, imo, was firstly his marriage, and secondly the Greyjoy invasion.

Robb deserved to lose. He played the game poorly and lost. He was good at winning battles but failed at overall Kingship, deep strategic thinking, and political maneuverings.

I'm not saying I wanted him to lose, I am simply saying that Tywin was able to outsmart him, and just because we like Robb does not mean we should overlook his many glaring flaws as a ruler.

Robb not marrying the Frey was a facepalm. He got what he deserved cause he played the game of thrones and he paid the price that moment is honestly the one I just shook my head at cause when I first read it I knew it'd bite him in the ass

anyway onto my post

[Great Franconia and Verana]

Approx how long would the sail from Sunspear to King's Landing be?

[Yaana Noore]

Felt the urge to write so so got that out. Feel it is quite useful to establish a bunch of different POVs so that I can have them move around if need be and have eyes in different locations. Also gives perspectives on Mel/Stannis from outsiders. With characters like Stannis I do think it is better to see him from the outside rather than in his head.

[Great Franconia and Verana]

Felt the urge to write so so got that out. Feel it is quite useful to establish a bunch of different POVs so that I can have them move around if need be and have eyes in different locations. Also gives perspectives on Mel/Stannis from outsiders. With characters like Stannis I do think it is better to see him from the outside rather than in his head.

Another excellent post Yaana, love Shireen's innocence.
Still wondering if Mel will be Ned's breaking point with Stannis, just as Daenery's assassination was his with Robert.

[Eraus]

Felt the urge to write so so got that out. Feel it is quite useful to establish a bunch of different POVs so that I can have them move around if need be and have eyes in different locations. Also gives perspectives on Mel/Stannis from outsiders. With characters like Stannis I do think it is better to see him from the outside rather than in his head.

Another excellent post Yaana, love Shireen's innocence.
Still wondering if Mel will be Ned's breaking point with Stannis, just as Daenery's assassination was his with Robert.

I think the moment she mentions burning people any average northerner would lose their shit....especially if they are old enough to remember what happen to the previous LP and his son

[Great Franconia and Verana]

Another excellent post Yaana, love Shireen's innocence.
Still wondering if Mel will be Ned's breaking point with Stannis, just as Daenery's assassination was his with Robert.

I think the moment she mentions burning people any average northerner would lose their shit....especially if they are old enough to remember what happen to the previous LP and his son

Quite, the Stark's have a pretty bad history with the whole being burned alive thing.

[Eraus]

I think the moment she mentions burning people any average northerner would lose their shit....especially if they are old enough to remember what happen to the previous LP and his son

Quite, the Stark's have a pretty bad history with the whole being burned alive thing.

Burning a person is a no go......I prefer my enemies flayed

[Yaana Noore]

Felt the urge to write so so got that out. Feel it is quite useful to establish a bunch of different POVs so that I can have them move around if need be and have eyes in different locations. Also gives perspectives on Mel/Stannis from outsiders. With characters like Stannis I do think it is better to see him from the outside rather than in his head.

Another excellent post Yaana, love Shireen's innocence.
Still wondering if Mel will be Ned's breaking point with Stannis, just as Daenery's assassination was his with Robert.

Thank you. Just read your own which was enjoyable as always. Are we assuming Humfrey and Arianne are betrothed?

It will be interesting to see how Eddard finds this Stannis/Mel business. Particularly when Stannis is about to see something which will convince him some more of Mel's powers...

[Jhet]

Would Stannis not be less supportive of Mel if he had the backing of the Starks/anyone? He did that for Blackwater in canon. And it isn't as if he is actually religious, so trading a couple burnings for +20k northmen would seem a very good deal. Surely?



Robb lost the day he claimed the crown. It is known.

Eh, maybe.

Also, it was a way bigger fight than ashford. Ashford was practically a skirmish, but at the fords, it was a full on battle. The strongboar was captured, two named knights were killed, the lord of house lefford died, and overall the lannisters took heavy casualties, or so the wiki says. Plus, gregor clegane and his men were personally involved in the fighting, and were able to take one ford. However, they were promptly thrown back over the east bank of the trident by the tully knights, who edmure held in reserve.

Three day long battles tend not to be skirmishes, mate.

Also, had bolton and tully combined their forces, they could have conceivably been victorious against tywin in that hypothetical battle. Edmure is recorded as having had 11,000 men at the battle of the fords, the northerners had roughly 3000 foot at duskendale, and the boltons at the red wedding counted 1200. Add that all together, you have 15,200 troops avalible for the hypothetical battle, along with some pretty great commanders. At the battle of the fords, tywin had a little under 20,000, and since his casualties were allegedly heavy, let's say, 16-17 thousand men, perhaps less, perhaps more.

The difference in numbers is not great, and edmure has won before against tywin, with less troops!

We don't know if Ashford was a skirmish. All we know is that the vanguard overran an entire army. Unfortunately, until we get a book on it, Ashford and its aftermath is why Robert ends up alone in Stoney Sept, and his men are never heard of again.

Three days of skirmishes with the final push perhaps being a "battle" involving a couple hundred men. Hardly the head on crash of two armies that all the ballads tell of.

Bolton had 10k at this point, was marching down the Kingsroad. The issue here is that Edmure, knowing all of what he knew, didn't follow up. He didn't shadow Tywin's retreat, nor did he make any move to unite with Bolton. The "he could have won the following battle" doesn't work as that is creating a different scenario for the Fords to be fought in. Edmure wanted to save face, get some respect back for his many failings, not to follow up with a coordinated strike/union with Bolton and try for a battle with Tywin, because if he did want to do that, then he would have done it. We see that he has the means to, given that Bolton does take orders from Tully. That is discounting what Tywin is doing in the meantime. Tyrell aside, all he needed to do was pull back, allow Edmure to give chase/pursue, and then attack once he is over the crossing. Or if Edmure is waiting too long (for Bolton) he would just give up and retake the Westerlands. I love (all) the battle because it actually shows us a little more of the military side of things (siege weapons, Lord's standings in the army etc) even if we see it through Ms Sunshine's perspective.

The emphasis (I believe retrospectively) really is that by the time of the Fords, Tywin and the Lannisters had basically lost. Paradox terms, they were sitting on -99 warscore. Total War terms, -50k bankruptcy with only a half stack left. I don't know any other game titles. And then the stars align, Jesus rolls the stone, Half-Life 3 is confirmed. Tywin saves the capital, securing 50-70k fresh soldiers. Bolton begins collaborating almost as bad as Pétain. Duskendale happens. Robb starts killing his own lords. Frey is brought in as a collaborator. The rest, as they say... All because Edmure felt he needed something other than a paid lady friend to stroke his ego.

[The Novakian Empire]

"We don't know if Ashford was a skirmish. All we know is that the vanguard overran an entire army. Unfortunately, until we get a book on it, Ashford and its aftermath is why Robert ends up alone in Stoney Sept, and his men are never heard of again."

First things first. Here's something taken from the wiki page for the battle of Ashford.

"The result of the battle was marked by Tyrion Lannister as inconclusive, thus it is likely the battle was not very large and Robert's forces remained relatively intact. However, faced with the large numbers of the main Tyrell force, Robert had no choice but to withdraw from the south and attempt to link up with his allies in the north. To this end, he force-marched his troops north towards the Riverlands. Robert's withdrawal from the Stormlands allowed the victorious Tyrell army to invade the Stormlands and lay siege to Storm's End."

The vanguard did not overrun Robert's entire army. It was able to retreat from Ashford in good condition, before the rest of the Tyrell army arrived. Tell me, what are small, short battles called? Ah, yes, I remember.
SKIRMISHES.
Aditionally, Robert's army did not disappear into thin air, and it was not slaughtered completely. They dispersed to avoid destruction by Connington, and reformed to face Rhaegar at the trident.

"Three days of skirmishes with the final push perhaps being a "battle" involving a couple hundred men. Hardly the head on crash of two armies that all the ballads tell of."

Again, not true. The following is from the wiki page for the battle of the fords.

"Initially Lord Tywin probed the defenses, attempting to find an unguarded ford. Ser Flement Brax was sent south to attempt a breach there, and there was also fighting to the north of Riverrun. After two days of skirmishing, Lord Tywin launched a number of heavier assaults. Edmure believed the main attack was directed at the Stone Mill, under the command of Ser Gregor Clegane. Ser Gregor and his men managed to gain the west bank with terrible losses, but Ser Edmure smashed him with his reserve. Elsewhere, Ser Addam Marbrand was thrown back three times, Lord Leo Lefford drowned and Ser Lyle Crakehall was taken captive. At the end of the day, Lord Tywin's army was seen to be marching south-east."

Gregor Clegane and his men were smashed, Addam Marband and his men launched three assaults (all of which were thrown back!) and Tywin's heavier assaults seem to have been turned back too, all on the third day. It's not three days of skirmishing and a final push, it's several battles happening all along the same front, some large some smaller, with skirmishing inbetween.

Finally, this.
"He didn't shadow Tywin's retreat, nor did he make any move to unite with Bolton."
So, you are claiming that not pursuing Tywin was a mistake, and that uniting with Bolton would be good, right? Okay.

"Tyrell aside, all he needed to do was pull back, allow Edmure to give chase/pursue, and then attack once he is over the crossing. Or if Edmure is waiting too long (for Bolton) he would just give up and retake the Westerlands."
Wait. Pursuing Tywin would be bad? That's strange, you just implied it wasn't. Aditionally, to unite with Bolton, He'd still have to follow Tywin as he retreats, opening himself up to that battle in the field you mentioned.

Great logic.

[The Novakian Empire]

Sorry if I seemed a little bitchy there, I haven't had the greatest of days and your post kind of pissed me off.

[The Valyria Empire]

Sorry if I seemed a little bitchy there, I haven't had the greatest of days and your post kind of pissed me off.

Put any really long posts/rants/bitching in spoilers, please.

I would like to apologize for the lack of posting. Been quite busy, will try to get one up in a bit, does not help that Persona 5 comes out tomorrow.

[The Novakian Empire]

Sorry if I seemed a little bitchy there, I haven't had the greatest of days and your post kind of pissed me off.

Put any really long posts/rants/bitching in spoilers, please.

I would like to apologize for the lack of posting. Been quite busy, will try to get one up in a bit, does not help that Persona 5 comes out tomorrow.

It's cool, and I will do that next time I have something to rant about. By the way, what's persona 5?

[The Valyria Empire]

Put any really long posts/rants/bitching in spoilers, please.

I would like to apologize for the lack of posting. Been quite busy, will try to get one up in a bit, does not help that Persona 5 comes out tomorrow.

It's cool, and I will do that next time I have something to rant about. By the way, what's persona 5?

https://www.google.com/ takes only a second.

Since Ned is sleeping, I'll just post with Robb until he goes to sleep. If everyone is okay with me skipping to the next day once Robb goes to sleep or would everyone want to skip sooner?

[Eraus]

It's cool, and I will do that next time I have something to rant about. By the way, what's persona 5?

https://www.google.com/ takes only a second.

Since Ned is sleeping, I'll just post with Robb until he goes to sleep. If everyone is okay with me skipping to the next day once Robb goes to sleep or would everyone want to skip sooner?

Maybe sooner but if others don't want it that's fine. I'm fine waiting plus I kinda wanna see where the Robb/Crannog(wo)men stuff leads....It seems like they might be going down a path which is to say the least intriguing with him going to her room in the middle of the night and all

[Vladivostokava]

https://www.google.com/ takes only a second.

Since Ned is sleeping, I'll just post with Robb until he goes to sleep. If everyone is okay with me skipping to the next day once Robb goes to sleep or would everyone want to skip sooner?

Maybe sooner but if others don't want it that's fine. I'm fine waiting plus I kinda wanna see where the Robb/Crannog(wo)men stuff leads....It seems like they might be going down a path which is to say the least intriguing with him going to her room in the middle of the night and all

"Woohoo!"

[The Valyria Empire]

https://www.google.com/ takes only a second.

Since Ned is sleeping, I'll just post with Robb until he goes to sleep. If everyone is okay with me skipping to the next day once Robb goes to sleep or would everyone want to skip sooner?

Maybe sooner but if others don't want it that's fine. I'm fine waiting plus I kinda wanna see where the Robb/Crannog(wo)men stuff leads....It seems like they might be going down a path which is to say the least intriguing with him going to her room in the middle of the night and all

Are you saying friends can't visit someone at night? Robb is not someone to sleep out of wedlock and if he did, he would marry her to preserve her honor. Especially since Cat isn't here to disway him.

Friendzone incoming?

[Eraus]

Maybe sooner but if others don't want it that's fine. I'm fine waiting plus I kinda wanna see where the Robb/Crannog(wo)men stuff leads....It seems like they might be going down a path which is to say the least intriguing with him going to her room in the middle of the night and all

Are you saying friends can't visit someone at night? Robb is not someone to sleep out of wedlock and if he did, he would marry her to preserve her honor. Especially since Cat isn't here to disway him.

Friendzone incoming?

He'd better not bang and then marry her.....we might need him to be single so we can gain an ally at a later date.

plus banging chicks in winterfell is Theon and Rodriks job

[Vladivostokava]

Maybe sooner but if others don't want it that's fine. I'm fine waiting plus I kinda wanna see where the Robb/Crannog(wo)men stuff leads....It seems like they might be going down a path which is to say the least intriguing with him going to her room in the middle of the night and all

Are you saying friends can't visit someone at night? Robb is not someone to sleep out of wedlock and if he did, he would marry her to preserve her honor. Especially since Cat isn't here to disway him.

Friendzone incoming?

Not if Blackreach rum has anything to say about it.

[Cruxa]

Are you saying friends can't visit someone at night? Robb is not someone to sleep out of wedlock and if he did, he would marry her to preserve her honor. Especially since Cat isn't here to disway him.

Friendzone incoming?

Not if Blackreach rum has anything to say about it.

*geometry homework goes up nose, spits out milk*

[Cruxa]

also, not sure how to slip Jon in with Forsworn's disappearance.

[Jhet]

Since Loras appears to be a bit more independent than the rest of the Tyrells, I'm happy for someone else to app him, if you're interested.

Continuing the Ashford/Fords argument because I am stubborn:

"The result of the battle was marked by Tyrion Lannister as inconclusive, thus it is likely the battle was not very large and Robert's forces remained relatively intact. However, faced with the large numbers of the main Tyrell force, Robert had no choice but to withdraw from the south and attempt to link up with his allies in the north. To this end, he force-marched his troops north towards the Riverlands. Robert's withdrawal from the Stormlands allowed the victorious Tyrell army to invade the Stormlands and lay siege to Storm's End."

The vanguard did not overrun Robert's entire army. It was able to retreat from Ashford in good condition, before the rest of the Tyrell army arrived. Tell me, what are small, short battles called? Ah, yes, I remember.

SKIRMISHES.

Aditionally, Robert's army did not disappear into thin air, and it was not slaughtered completely. They dispersed to avoid destruction by Connington, and reformed to face Rhaegar at the trident.

In that very same wiki page it clearly states that Tarly with the vanguard overran Robert's army. I am more than happy to grant that the total casualties sustained are not very large, but it was still devastating. And as seen in the Wiki for the Battle of the Trident, it states that the stormland contingent is small because: the stormlords were trapped in the south (somehow) and "badly bloodied" by Ashford. For the purposes of the argument, between Ashford and the Bells, Robert's army effectively disappears (dispersed or whatever) and is no longer a component in the rebellion. And since we don't know what else transpired between Ashford and the Bells, (the world book if I recall doesn't go into it) Ashford is the reason Robert ends up without an army.

"Three days of skirmishes with the final push perhaps being a "battle" involving a couple hundred men. Hardly the head on crash of two armies that all the ballads tell of."

Again, not true. The following is from the wiki page for the battle of the fords.

"Initially Lord Tywin probed the defenses, attempting to find an unguarded ford. Ser Flement Brax was sent south to attempt a breach there, and there was also fighting to the north of Riverrun. After two days of skirmishing, Lord Tywin launched a number of heavier assaults. Edmure believed the main attack was directed at the Stone Mill, under the command of Ser Gregor Clegane. Ser Gregor and his men managed to gain the west bank with terrible losses, but Ser Edmure smashed him with his reserve. Elsewhere, Ser Addam Marbrand was thrown back three times, Lord Leo Lefford drowned and Ser Lyle Crakehall was taken captive. At the end of the day, Lord Tywin's army was seen to be marching south-east."

Gregor Clegane and his men were smashed, Addam Marband and his men launched three assaults (all of which were thrown back!) and Tywin's heavier assaults seem to have been turned back too, all on the third day. It's not three days of skirmishing and a final push, it's several battles happening all along the same front, some large some smaller, with skirmishing inbetween.

Finally, this.
"He didn't shadow Tywin's retreat, nor did he make any move to unite with Bolton."
So, you are claiming that not pursuing Tywin was a mistake, and that uniting with Bolton would be good, right? Okay.

"Tyrell aside, all he needed to do was pull back, allow Edmure to give chase/pursue, and then attack once he is over the crossing. Or if Edmure is waiting too long (for Bolton) he would just give up and retake the Westerlands."
Wait. Pursuing Tywin would be bad? That's strange, you just implied it wasn't. Aditionally, to unite with Bolton, He'd still have to follow Tywin as he retreats, opening himself up to that battle in the field you mentioned.

Great logic.

I think my argument was that a "battle" in the medieval sense (aside from that terminology being their "flanks") is a pitched battle between two hosts. The fords do not allow great masses of men to "fight", thus it is a lot of smaller skirmishes without one army or the other being destroyed. But I am willing to concede that point, since it seems I was being pretty anal about terminology/semantics. Not that I can remember what I was even trying to argue on that point.

As for the shadow/not pursuing, my argument was that Edmure's decision to fight Tywin was doomed to failure. He didn't shadow Tywin's retreat and force a battle to end him, nor could he have done such without a high chance of defeat. In order to limit the risk he would have needed to join with Bolton, who was on the other side of the riverlands at this point, and Tywin would have been able to force a battle against one of the smaller elements, or forgone a battle entirely. Thus the entire strategy was ill thought out, and results in what it results in.

If I can, the Fords and Ashford are the same in that respect. Both confrontations feature a failure by the victor to consolidate and destroy the opposing army, thus allowing the loser to regroup their own forces and win the war.