1870 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC]

[Dires]

Apparently Qing China had a GDP of roughly $189,470 million in 1870 (1990 dollars) based on the estimates of Angus Maddison, a former British economics professor at Cambridge. Which is roughly $529.25 per person (Surprisingly that number seems higher than China during the 1950s...). Russia had on of roughly $83,646 million, giving it a GDP per capita of $989.89. Britain's was $100,180 million, meaning it had a GDP per capita of $4659.53.

Now this was when China had yet to industrialize at all. Russia was also really backwards at the time as well (not as much as China though). The National Union is significantly more developed than Qing China, and although has a lower population, should definitely have a much higher GDP.

Say China has a GDP per capita of $1058.5 (Doubled, which doesn't seem too far fetched, given that the nation has been actively developing for the past ~50 years, and counting Liu dynasty growth. Takes into account the civil war, which caused China to lose 2-3 decades of development). Still far from developed, but not horribly backwards. Multiplying by the ~310 million people in the National Union, this gives the nation a GDP of $328.135 Billion ($328,135 million). Big numbers there.

Japan had a GDP of $25.393 billion in 1870. GDP per capita: $769.48. Now, I'd say RP wise Japan has one of at least ~$2000, given it's much earlier development (around 80 or so years early in fact). With its 55 million people, that amounts to a GDP of $110 billion, way larger than RL Japan. Although I'd think the colonies would be poorer on average (not Korea, seeing that that's been part of Japan for a few hundred years now).

As for wealth in the non Korean colonies, definitely less developed, but since they are low in population and are basically regions dedicated to resource extraction, they can be extremely profitable for men brave enough. Overall all though, though the process is for resource extraction, it is not a colonial economy since the local people are either Japanese or heavily mixed with Japanese colonists and are treated with the full rights and opportunities as any other imperial citizens.

[Second Helghan Empire]

It certainly sounds like a valiant effort. It'll be fun to see how it plays out.

Also, what do other Europeans think of the fact the current Chairman (Simon Moreau) of the People's Senate is one-quarter African (the rest being, presumably, French), during a time period where slavery has probably just recently been abolished and Africans in most countries are still probably fighting for civil rights and voting rights and such?

For germany slavery wasnt based on race their were more white slaves than african. However they also dont consider africans citizens of europe even if they have lived there their whole life. So they are not egalitarian but more so than historical european nations.

[Democratic East-Asia]

So, IC national opinions on the National Union of China?

Japan views China as an essential partner but is wary of Marx-Pierrism spreading to China, possibly turning this close ally and trading partner against the benevolent constitutional monarchism that exists in Dai Nippon Teikoku

Tbh though, communism of various forms is rather popular in China. The government is already socialist esque (more so than PRC like Italy, in fact).

[Dires]

Japan views China as an essential partner but is wary of Marx-Pierrism spreading to China, possibly turning this close ally and trading partner against the benevolent constitutional monarchism that exists in Dai Nippon Teikoku

Tbh though, communism of various forms is rather popular in China. The government is already socialist esque (more so than PRC like Italy, in fact).

The Japanese have nothing against socialism, they have a strong safety net structure, they simply worry that strident and internationalist communism would view the Japanese empire as an ideological enemy.

[Democratic East-Asia]

The Japanese have nothing against socialism, they have a strong safety net structure for families, they simply worry that strident and internationalist communism would view the Japanese empire as an ideological enemy.

Makes sense. China's leftists come in varieties of degree. You have moderate socialists who advocate some economic reform on one hand, and you have hardline commies on another who call for the complete destruction of traditional society and the restructuring of the nation. Either way, the socialists will probably outnumber the ruling rationalists soon enough. Rationalism is compatible with socialism, so many happen to be rationalist party members.

[The Orson Empire]

Full Nation Name : Commune of Italia
Flag : Flag of the Commune
Majority/Official Culture : A mix of Roman and Italian
Territorial Core : Italy, Sicily, and Sardinia in Europe, Azores islands, Angola in Africa, the islands of Java, Borneo, and Sumatra in Indonesia
Territorial Claim : The entire Congo River Basin in Africa, all of the Indonesian islands
Capital City : Rome, Italy
Population : 40 million

Government Type : Marxist-Pierran Communist State
Government Ideology/Policies : Socialist, communist, Marxist-Pierran, expansionist, militarist
Government Focus : Making Italia a premier power in Europe, spreading communism across Europe
Head of State : Chancellor Rufo Barretta
Head of Government : Chancellor Rufo Barretta
Government Description : Barretta effectively rules as an authoritarian dictator over Italia, with no one able to challenge him. The Central Committee of the Communist Party of Italia, the top leaders of the Communist Party, form the upper branch of government, while the Italian Parliament forms the lower branch. The High Court of Italia forms the judicial branch. The People's Security Force is the main law enforcement wing of the party.

Majority/State Religion : The Party encourages the practice of state atheism, but freedom of religion is guaranteed by law.
Religious Description : N/A

Economic Ideologies : Socialism, Communism
Major Production : Grain, wine, metals (including precious metals), weapons, spices, coffee
Economic Description : On paper, it is a Marxist-Pierran command economy. In reality, this is not the case. Chancellor Barretta has instituted a number of economic reforms, making the economy similar to that of RL China (See the history of Italia for more information).

Army Strength : Well equipped, efficient, and well trained. The Italian Army have some of the greatest weapons available and go through a rigorous training process; they are efficient in that they can fight using a large number of strategies, depending on what their mission is. The Army currently has 150,000 active soldiers and 200,000 reserves, and have some of the best riflemen in Europe.
Army Weakness : Despite the strengths of the army, the Italian Navy will generally get more focus than the army, as the navy is seen as critical to protect Italia's colonial ambitions. The standing army is also not very large, due to it's reliance on quality over quantity. Additionally, various regiments of the army will be less effective in combat due to the purge of the military.
Naval Strength : With 24 ironclad warships and 260 other ships, the Italian Navy is one of the largest in the world; additionally, the navy has high quality weapons and equipment. All of this combined makes the Italian fleets a formidable force on the seas.
Naval Weakness : Following the recent purge of the military, many good naval officers were killed. It will be some time before such talent can be replaced, and this will decrease the effectiveness of the navy.
Further Military Description : The Italian Army is armed with modern equipment such as bolt-action rifles, lever-action rifles, revolvers, and shotgun, as well as modern breech-loaded artillery. Additionally, both the army and navy use a weapon known as the Autorifle; it is a large spring-loaded, hand cranked rifle capable of firing dozens of rounds every minute. Having adapted to the times, the army has done away with the line formation, which had been the standard formation for the army for centuries; Italian soldiers move in much smaller groups, making them much harder to target by artillery or infantry fire. In addition to their rigorous training regimen, Italian soldiers are also trained in mission-type tactics, in order to make the army more flexible in combat.

With 24 ironclad warships and dozens of other steam-powered ships, the Italian Navy is one of the largest and most well equipped in the world, right behind the Cambrian and Japanese navies in terms of power. Taking inspiration from the Japanese, the Italians have also developed their own armor-piercing shells in order to effectively counter the growing number of ironclads in the world.

National Goals : Expand the Army, spread the communist ideology, claim new colonies
National Issues : Good naval and army officers need to be recruited, and the economy still has issues due to the Marxist-Pierran ideology
National Figures of Interest : Rufo Barretta, Bortolo Guerino
National Ambition/Aspirations : Unite the workers of the world in revolution, transform Italy into a major player in Europe

History :
[box][list][*] 27 B.C. - Roman Empire established.
[*] 306-337 AD - The Reign of Constantine the Great; Rome becomes Christian. The Roman Empire also splits into West and East.
[*] 476 AD - Fall of the Western Roman Empire; abdication of the Last Emperor of West-Rome.
[*] 477-490 AD - The Era of Strife; multiple Kingdoms vying for power, with the Church trying to hold everything together but not seizing power due to some anti-Christian feelings in some minor Kingdoms. Southern Italy is put under occupation of the East-Romans, forming the Kingdom of Italia.
[*] 540 AD - The Kingdom of Italia emerges victorious on the Italian Peninsula; it remains a province of Eastern Rome for a number of years.
[*] 560 AD - The Kingdom of Italia's decisive victory against the barbarians who invaded and destroyed it.
[*] 575 AD - The Kingdom of Italia begins gaining autonomy as it begins expanding along the Peninsula and gaining more of its current territory.
[*] 602 AD - With war for East-Rome and new barbarians and others attempting to invade Italia, the Kingdom is forced to fend for itself and - eventually - gains victory, securing its territories.
[*] 624 AD - The Kingdom of Italia gains independence; the last Roman forces are removed.
[*] 680 AD - The Kingdom of Italia continues expanding, almost gaining its current borders; the Italian Empire is formed.
[*] 1200 AD - End of the Neo-Caesarian Dynasty; Beginning of the Second Augustine Dynasty
[*] 1300 AD - The Catholic Church's power reaches its height in Italia.
[*] 1454 AD - The Italian Empire continues expanding, reaching its current borders.
[*] 1500-1599 AD - The Italian Empire enters reformations in its governance; the current Imperial government's constitutional monarchy forms. Around this time, the Empire finally enters the colonization race by establishing control of the Azores Islands and establishing a colony on the island of Java. The colonies in Indonesia will expand over the centuries. Colonization of the Americas begins, and a colony is established in southern Florida.
[*] 1600 AD - The Italian Empire makes contact with the Eastern Roman Empire once again; it begins trading and forms an alliance with the East Romans.
[*] 1650 AD - Using Eastern Roman support, the Italian Empire begins to modernize its education system and the likes using long-lost knowledge.
[*] 1740 AD - Death of Emperor Julius Quintus; Antonius Quintus I begins his reign. Antonius Quintus I begins to increase infrastructure in the nation; building better bridges, railways and generally strengthening the unity of the Italian Empire. The Italian Empire continues advancing and playing 'catch up' with Eastern Rome.
[*] 1790 AD - Death of Antonius Quintus I; Antonius Quintus II becomes Emperor. Antonius Quintus II continues his father's work of uniting Italia further by not only increasing infrastructure, but he begins working on educational standards and bettering the economy. His policies work out, mostly due to taking advice from economists (hired by corporations). The Italian Empire has nearly modernized its military; both army and navy.
[*] 1840 AD - Death of Antonius Quintus II; Antonius Quintus III becomes Emperor. Antonius Quintus III is the youngest Emperor of Italia, at age 19 when he becomes Emperor. His father had died of a stroke at age 61. His mother, Maria Caesar, died shortly after of a heart attack. Emperor Antonius Quintus III's young age is believed to be responsible for his 'modernistic' style of thinking, as well as the cause for his thinking similarly to the modern generation of Italians. Emperor Quintus III also states that he is not actually a Catholic, but a Pagan. This causes some controversy in the Imperial government, but Antonius Quintus III remains Emperor. The Catholic Church looks nervously to the future, under a Pagan Emperor. The Italian Empire has almost completely modernized overall, although, the Eastern Romans are still quite a bit more advanced than Italia.
[*]1850 AD - Two years after the publication of The Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx, the Marxist Party of Italy (named in honor of him) forms from humble origins. However, it begins to gain ground over the next several months, attracting lower and middle class people who were dissatisfied with the Italian government, the nobility, and Italy's rather laissez-faire capitalist economy (which had resulted in the formation of several large monopolies, and without much legal protection, workers were heavily exploitative by these corporations).
[*]1853 AD - This year marks the watershed moment for the socialists in Italy. Antoine St. Pierre, leader of the French Socialist Party, becomes a legendary figure not only among the Marxist Party, but among all of Italy. His struggle against the bourgeois in France bolsters the Marxist Party, and tens of thousands of people become members. The Emperor and the nobility of Italy are very concerned, but there is little they can do, as Italy has a democratic government. Also this year, Bortolo Guerino emerges as the new leader of the Marxist Party. Guerino is an intelligent and passionate man, and his incredible speeches attract audiences from every corner of the Empire; his influence in the party also convinces the Central Committee, the top leaders of the party, to adopt the Marxist-Pierran ideology as their main dogma.
[*]1854 AD - The Marxist Party wins the majority of seats in the Italian Parliament, but not enough votes for a majority. They form a coalition government with the Italian Workers Party and other smaller parties that are friendly to them. Bortolo Guerino becomes the Chancellor of Italia, and immediately begins work on implementing communism across Italy.
[*]1855 AD - Italia establishes formal relations with the French People's Republic, which evolves into an alliance as Italian volunteer regiments are sent into France to aid their cause. The first five-year plan is instituted by Chancellor Guerino, which began the process of agriculture collectivization in Italia; heavy industry begins to expand as well.
[*]1856 AD - The Marxist Party creates the People's Security Force (PSF), a paramilitary organization meant to secure the party's control over the nation and ensure the overthrow and elimination of the bourgeois. A split in the Italian Military occurs between conservatives and those who support the communists; as tensions rise in Italia, it seems as if a revolution is likely.
[*]1857 AD - Emperor Antonius Quintus III, in a surprising and shocking turn of events, abdicates the throne of Italia. It is widely believed that the PSF threatened to have the Emperor killed if he did not abdicate. Quintus was last seen leaving Rome, and has been missing ever since he fled the city. The Italian Parliament passes the Enabling Act, merging the offices of the Emperor and the Chancellor and allowing Guerino to pass laws without the consent of parliament, effectively making him a dictator. Guerino begins a major purge of both the nobility, the government, and the military to eliminate anyone who opposed the party; hundreds are killed in the purge, and many thousands flee the country to escape his wrath. The Marxist Party and all other parties in the coalition with it merge to form the Communist Party of Italy, and all other political parties are banned. The monarchy is dissolved, and the new Commune of Italy, a fully Marxist-Pierran state, is declared. The constitution is heavily amended, with the Central Committee of the Communist Party as the upper branch of government, and the Italian Parliament as the lower branch. Capitalism begins to be stamped out, and is replaced with a planned economy.
[*]1865 AD - Chancellor Guerino dies of a heart attack at the age of 56. His successor and former right-hand man, Rufo Barretta, becomes the new Chancellor at 37 years of age. Unlike Guerino, Barretta is not nearly as passionate about the Marxist-Pierran ideology, seeing it as flawed, inefficient, and ultimately detrimental to the entire nation. Barretta, being the power-hungry sociopath that he was, had most of his focus on consolidating his reign and eliminating his competitors. He initiates a new purge of the Communist Party, eliminating many hard-liners of the Marxist-Pierran ideology and replacing them with moderates.
[*]1866 AD - Chancellor Barretta introduces economic reforms, ending the collectivization of all farms, relaxing the government's control over the industrial sector, ending price controls and protectionist policies, and once again allowing foreign investment into Italia. While on paper, Italia is still a communist nation, in practice, this is no longer the case. Italia also invades the minor Kingdom of Kongo in central Africa, subjugating it in a short 5-month war and establishing the Dominion of the Congo. This land is not controlled by the Communist Party, but is instead the personal land of Chancellor Barretta himself.


Comparison Points – Political : 2
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious : 1
Comparison Points – Economy : 4
Comparison Points – Military : 3
Total Comparison Points used (10 Points MAX) : 10/10
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

[Tracian Empire]

Isn't this like built over Void's Italy app?

Because it has the army strength and weakness that I found problematic.

[The Orson Empire]

Isn't this like built over Void's Italy app?

Because it has the army strength and weakness that I found problematic.

Void allowed me to use the history from his previous app, and I put in the strengths and weaknesses also since it seemed to fit well.

What is the problem, though?

[Tracian Empire]

Isn't this like built over Void's Italy app?

Because it has the army strength and weakness that I found problematic.

Void allowed me to use the history from his previous app, and I put in the strengths and weaknesses also since it seemed to fit well.

What is the problem, though?

Because they're too generic. The weakness is the problem though.

Numbers? Numbers are relative. Not many other nations have even mentioned numbers in their apps, as such, using it as a weakness, but comparing the Italian army to other armies wouldn't exactly work, since we don't know if other nations actually have bigger armies than the Italians. And then that thing with the strategies is confusing. How could they be confused by other strategies? Not only don't I fully understand this, but it's clear that any military force could find adapting to the strategies of its enemies to be difficult.

So unless it means that the Italian Army can't adapt to strategic changes during a war, and that it's not versatile, I don't see how it could be a weakness.

[Malagasy Kingdom]

I'll get up my app tomorrow, I've been busy with finishing my research paper.

[The Orson Empire]

Void allowed me to use the history from his previous app, and I put in the strengths and weaknesses also since it seemed to fit well.

What is the problem, though?

Because they're too generic. The weakness is the problem though.

Numbers? Numbers are relative. Not many other nations have even mentioned numbers in their apps, as such, using it as a weakness, but comparing the Italian army to other armies wouldn't exactly work, since we don't know if other nations actually have bigger armies than the Italians. And then that thing with the strategies is confusing. How could they be confused by other strategies? Not only don't I fully understand this, but it's clear that any military force could find adapting to the strategies of its enemies to be difficult.

So unless it means that the Italian Army can't adapt to strategic changes during a war, and that it's not versatile, I don't see how it could be a weakness.

Yeah, I think I see your point now.

I'm going to have to fix it tomorrow.

[Atreidya]

WIP

Looking pretty good so far.

Thank you very much. I have a question. Is there anyway my reservation can be extended a day? I am going to have to cover another persons shift at work so i wont have as much time to work on my app as i intended.

[Tracian Empire]

Looking pretty good so far.

Thank you very much. I have a question. Is there anyway my reservation can be extended a day? I am going to have to cover another persons shift at work so i wont have as much time to work on my app as i intended.

If real life gets in, I suppose that yes, we can extend it for a day.

[Atreidya]

Thank you very much. I have a question. Is there anyway my reservation can be extended a day? I am going to have to cover another persons shift at work so i wont have as much time to work on my app as i intended.

If real life gets in, I suppose that yes, we can extend it for a day.

Thank you!

[Democratic East-Asia]

Hmm... Council communist China...

[The V O I D]

So, while the FSR came to be via violent revolt and such, Italy's communist state came about by sheer political dominance and converted in a nonviolent manner?

Interesting. Just goes to show you, communism doesn't need to be violent to take you over. I might be reading the history wrong and missing the violent bits so yeah, but it seems like the communists just sorta got voted in and slowly converted Italy to a communist state.

If and when the FSR and Italian State inspire another Revolution in Spain, this should be of great concern to Cambria and Germany, because now the communists have essentially guaranteed a war on one front (northern/northeastern) if they chose to help communists in their nations revolt. Not to mention that if their communist parties are legal, they may gain more popular support as a communist regime appears in Spain.

I'm causing all sorts of trouble, aren't I?

[Democratic East-Asia]

China's possible turn to communism probably won't be that violent. Expect a majority in the national assembly to begin with.

[The V O I D]

China's possible turn to communism probably won't be that violent. Expect a majority in the national assembly to begin with.

I really feel like the first major arc/event of this RP will be "The Red Menace", and about how monarchist/capitalist players deal with the threat and spread of communism in Europe and Asia.

And all this thanks to some guy named Antoine St. Pierre. Thanks, Antoine!

[Cymrea]

China's possible turn to communism probably won't be that violent. Expect a majority in the national assembly to begin with.

I really feel like the first major arc/event of this RP will be "The Red Menace", and about how monarchist/capitalist players deal with the threat and spread of communism in Europe and Asia.

And all this thanks to some guy named Antoine St. Pierre. Thanks, Antoine!

Cambria's arc will probably begin with protesting and demonstrations Victorian-style. Then maybe some violent uprisings, and then proliferation of work unions and expansion of social programming by Parliament which will placate all but the most fringe elements.

[The V O I D]

I really feel like the first major arc/event of this RP will be "The Red Menace", and about how monarchist/capitalist players deal with the threat and spread of communism in Europe and Asia.

And all this thanks to some guy named Antoine St. Pierre. Thanks, Antoine!

Cambria's arc will probably begin with protesting and demonstrations Victorian-style. Then maybe some violent uprisings, and then proliferation of work unions and expansion of social programming by Parliament which will placate all but the most fringe elements.

Or, if France and friends intervene, they'll be dealing with a full fledged communist uprising.

[Cymrea]

Cambria's arc will probably begin with protesting and demonstrations Victorian-style. Then maybe some violent uprisings, and then proliferation of work unions and expansion of social programming by Parliament which will placate all but the most fringe elements.

Or, if France and friends intervene, they'll be dealing with a full fledged communist uprising.

If France is found intervening in the domestic affairs of Cambria, relations will suffer.

[The Orson Empire]

So, while the FSR came to be via violent revolt and such, Italy's communist state came about by sheer political dominance and converted in a nonviolent manner?

Interesting. Just goes to show you, communism doesn't need to be violent to take you over. I might be reading the history wrong and missing the violent bits so yeah, but it seems like the communists just sorta got voted in and slowly converted Italy to a communist state.

If and when the FSR and Italian State inspire another Revolution in Spain, this should be of great concern to Cambria and Germany, because now the communists have essentially guaranteed a war on one front (northern/northeastern) if they chose to help communists in their nations revolt. Not to mention that if their communist parties are legal, they may gain more popular support as a communist regime appears in Spain.

I'm causing all sorts of trouble, aren't I?

Don't be mistaken - it was violent for Italy.

Guerino came to power through peaceful means, but then begins a major purge of the opposition in 1857 to gain absolute power. Hundreds were killed in the purge, but it was certainly less violent then France's civil war.

[The Orson Empire]

Also, when does the IC go up?

[Cymrea]

Also, when does the IC go up?

Later today or tomorrow, maybe? I don't think it will be much longer.

[Tracian Empire]

Also, when does the IC go up?

Later today or tomorrow, maybe? I don't think it will be much longer.

I'll try to get it up before going to sleep.