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1870 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][REBOOT]

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Old Tyrannia
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Posts: 15372
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:47 am

Seinlo wrote:Maybe I should have waited for you guys to figure this out before I made a post.

Old Tyrannia wrote:Woah, woah, woah... When did a "Roman Tech Group" become a thing?


Our kebab friend made a Guidance.

"Kebab" is a vaguely offensive slang term for Turks. I've found the relative guidance and it's by Elerian, who is playing India.

Does this mean that Japan, Korea and China are more technologically advanced than Western Europe?
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Sanabel
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Founded: Nov 10, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:47 am

Seinlo wrote:
Sanabel wrote:Trace, you think Ruthenia would be between Euro and Roman? I do.


Not everyone can be in the Roman tech group, though, just like it'd be kind of weird to get even more industrialized nations. Honestly, I think that the Roman tech group should be small, as in 2 or 3 nations. 4 at the most.

Lol, as of now, there are two nations in it. Ruthenia is actually Roman, too. Aaaand, who made you OP?
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The V O I D
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Founded: Apr 13, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The V O I D » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:50 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Seinlo wrote:Maybe I should have waited for you guys to figure this out before I made a post.



Our kebab friend made a Guidance.

"Kebab" is a vaguely offensive slang term for Turks. I've found the relative guidance and it's by Elerian, who is playing India.

Does this mean that Japan, Korea and China are more technologically advanced than Western Europe?


Well, sort of, I guess? Aside from those belonging to the Roman Tech Group. RTG and its associates / nations almost in it is more advanced than Asia still.

That means Imperium Romanum, the Italian Empire, Persia [maybe?], Ruthenia [also maybe?] and a few others.

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Sanabel
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Posts: 30032
Founded: Nov 10, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:51 am

The V O I D wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:"Kebab" is a vaguely offensive slang term for Turks. I've found the relative guidance and it's by Elerian, who is playing India.

Does this mean that Japan, Korea and China are more technologically advanced than Western Europe?


Well, sort of, I guess? Aside from those belonging to the Roman Tech Group. RTG and its associates / nations almost in it is more advanced than Asia still.

That means Imperium Romanum, the Italian Empire, Persia [maybe?], Ruthenia [also maybe?] and a few others.

I dont think there are any others.
Proud Flat-Earther and anti-vaccine activist.
----------
I am a Radical Centro-Transhumanist and a National Globalist.
If you don't have a high enough IQ to know what those are, then we can't be friends.

Currently Reading: More Than A Woman by the Bee Gees

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Tracian Empire
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Posts: 24143
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:51 am

Seinlo wrote:
Seinlo wrote:
Pre-Application Credits: Danceria played a massive part in helping me come up with this, and I actually have screenshots of stuff I hope makes it into the app, since it’s all really awesome. I was also helped out a lot by the rest of the members, and would like to mention Sanabel and Thrace. This isn’t my best app, but I can assure you that it is certainly my post unique.

Full Nation Name: The Empire of Rasuli, AKA the Sultanate of Yemen
Majority/Official Culture: Most consider themselves Arabian, African, or a combination of Arabian and some other culture; there is a cultural continuum similar to a dialect continuum, but different in that Madagascar’s culture is about as severe as the differences get (except for those causing rebellions), and there are many shared traits between the cultures. Many of the cultures share traits that they didn’t in real life, and as a result there is cultural crossover between the Arabians and the Africans, which is one of the things that allows them to get along better.
Map: This. In case it’s not on the map/you can’t see it, I have colonies in the Chagos archipelago, the Seychelles archipelag, the Kuria Muria island, Masira island. Madagascar also includes Mayotte and the Comoros
Territorial Core: Yemen, Oman, Socotra island, parts of modern Saudi Arabia, modern U.A.E., modern Bahrain, and modern Qatar, strong presence in the Horn of Africa (Eritrea, Djibouti, Somalia, Ethiopia), prominent settlements in Zanzibar (parts of Somalia, Kenya, Tanzania, Burundi, small parts of Mozambique) and Madagascar (includes Mayotte and the Comoros), Reunion island, Kuria Muria island, Masira island, the Seychelles archipelago, the Chagos archipelago, and Mauritius
Territorial Claim: The African Great Lakes Region, part of modern Pakistan/Afghanistan/whatever else is outlined in the color coded map, parts of modern Sudan, parts of some other African nations, parts of the east coast of the Red Sea, parts of modern Mozambique
Other Map Information: A Color-Coded Map - The modern Saudi Arabian territory in a deep orange is only lightly occupied, and officially a claim, and not part of the territorial core. The yellow in Africa constitutes both a claim and part of my trade network. The orange across the map is meant to tell you that these are claims, but that I don’t actually have them. The island colonies/prominent settlements mentioned above are generally small, with the smallest probably being less than 9,000, and I was unsure whether to make them part of the territorial core or the territorial claims because I have actual settlements there. Ghujarat, a state in India, is one of my claims, but interest is fading in hopes of a possible alliance with the nation there, so I didn’t add it. There are trading posts in some of the coastal areas of the rest of the Indian Ocean (some of which are the orange areas), but I am unsure if I am allowed to have those, so I didn’t bother adding them, and they may not even be state-owned because I might just have some traders operating there.
Capital City: Sana’a, Yemen
Population: Around 9,590,000

Government Type: Absolutist monarchy accompanied by a rights-granting charter that only the Sultan isn’t required to follow, and democratic- and republican-leaning (not in the modern political party sense, but in the sense of forms of state) tendencies in some areas
Government Ideology/Policies: Non-militant expansionism that sometimes escalates into militant expansionism or even imperialism. Many members of society have nationalism or patriotism of some sort for the Sultanate of Yemen in their hearts, but there are some who take it to the extreme and express chauvinism. There are small rebellions however, and not everyone reacts with anger, pointing to the fact that nationalism and patriotism isn’t as important to some people as it is to others (while many have nationalistic or patriotic views, some are less pronounced in their beliefs).
Government Focus: The economy and culture are the largest focuses, but the military is strong as a result of heavy funding, extensive training, closely held ideals, and a mercenary/privateer force working aside them
Head of State: Sultan Al-Afdal Al-Abbas II of the Rasulid Dynasty, Caliph of All Islam
Head of Government: Sultan Al-Afdal Al-Abbas II of the Rasulid Dynasty, Caliph of All Islam
Government Description: The Sultan is the absolute ruler, possessing widespread executive powers. A rights-granting charter, a combination of secular and Roman law, and his Cabinet of Yemen (the Council of Ministers; it is over double the size it is IRL, as there are Sultan-elected representatives of several areas) aid greatly in his rule. The Sultan sits in on all meetings held by the nation’s parliament, and has final say and veto powers on all laws passed in the nation (and for rules/laws passed on a scale smaller than nation-wide, he is given reports; these laws will probably never contradict the main law, however). The parliament is made up of the upper house elected by the Sultan (the Council of State of Yemen, and the democratically elected lower house (Consultative Assembly, which is also over twice the size it is IRL). The public is well aware of the fact that the Sultan has and will waive constitutional rights, and respects this as he is the only one capable of doing so. Other parts of the government exist, such as a bureaucracy of non-elected and elected officials, and smaller components such as the rulers of a city.

The country is known for possessing very open foreign and trade policies, as well as an open mind when it comes to negotiations, for the most part. These traits most likely arose due to the increased threat posed by technologically advanced neighbors or economic rivals, but they have led to a bustling economy with free trade (of course, tariffs and taxes still apply), stock markets in all major cities and economic centers, beneficial land ownership laws, smooth operation, and other attributes that make the Sultanate exciting for domestic and international traders alike.

The Sultanate of Yemen is divided into governorates (Muhafazah) as first-order administration, then provinces (Wiliyat), then districts (Kaza), then the subdistricts (the equivalent of counties) (Nahiyah), and then finally into municipalities, a concept embraced because of exposure to Westerners. The colonies are called dominions, but Yemen is closer to (or rather, has closer relations and more control of) its dominions than the real life British Empire was. The type of leader for each will be as follows: governor for the governorates, mutasariff for the provinces, kaimakam for districts (the military rank of kaimakam has been replaced by the title yarbay), a mudir for subdistricts, and mayors for municipalities. Each leader of the governorates and provinces will have secretaries for finance, agriculture and commerce, interaction with foreigners, public works, and correspondence and archives, while those of smaller divisions will have similar staff, and for many of these there is an executive council.

Majority/State Religion: The Arabian Agglomeration
Religious Description: Not given a single-word name like so many other religions, mostly because it hasn’t been given an official name, the so-called Arabian Agglomeration is the same agglomeration as the most widely held culture in the Sultanate of Yemen and its territories. While it may differ from region to region in some areas, and has its strongest presence in Yemen’s territorial core (Madagascar is in the territorial core, but expresses a combination of Malagasy beliefs and those that go along with the Arabian Agglomeration, which has seeped into the African territories it is close to), it is mostly Arabic/Sunni Muslim influenced by Sufism, and blended with Somali, Abyssinian, and Swahili beliefs, as is the rest of the culture.

Economic Ideologies: Open economy mixed market, which is actively avoiding the creation of social disorder while insuring that an affluent society is created (of course, there are still wealthier people and poorer people as there always is), and trying to expand the ruler and state’s power through the prosperity of its citizens; there are state-run corporations and enterprises that attempt to give as much freedom is possible without leaning towards some of capitalism’s tendencies (as Wikipedia says, indirect macroeconomic influence over fiscal and monetary policies). Attempts to expand into nearly any economic sector are allowed, except for those such as slavery.
Major Production: Agricultural goods, mineral products (including moderate iron production as a result of iron mines), high-quality textile and other manufactured
Economic Description: The Sultanate of Yemen has had large amounts of wealth ever since Oman entered a personal union with the Rasulid dynasty, and though there were troubles over the years, this has only improved over time. The adoption of highly efficient and generally very open economic policies that generate much wealth for the Sultanate, the embracement of Roman law, aqueducting, and other customs of the “West” (yes, this is essentially word for word what Danceria suggested, though I edited it some), as well as having algebra and other things while Europe was rather primitive in nature (this one is more ancient, but it still influenced the present Sultanate of Yemen), the Sultanate of Yemen has become an extremely wealthy mercantile nation with clean, beautiful cities. It is semi-industrialized, possessing a well-invested textile industry, more modernized mining, manufacturing, and other such things than those without any industrialization. It possesses extensive railroad and telegraph networks built by contracting industrialized Western nations. It isn’t uncommon for a decent, but not obscene percentage of the GDP to come from renting out privateer and mercenary corporations, many of which operate independently of the Sultanate, but rely on the Sultanate to provide them jobs, with contracts existing regarding what jobs they can take, with benefits such as serving the Sultanate of Yemen and finding a safe-haven there (as long as they follow the laws). The Sultanate produces excellent goods, and what it does not produce it can mine. It is not uncommon for the Sultanate to import materials for architecture, manufacturing, or even crafting. There are craftsmen and makers’ organizations within the Sultanate that are state-funded as part of efforts to improve and maintain culture which benefit from imports. They are doing quite well for themselves at the moment, too, and hope to continue expanding their economy.

Army Strength: The national army and mercenary corps are well-funded and disciplined (leaving them with possession of modern weaponry (about 1870 level), the common use of effective indirect fire with artillery, and having sound tactics). Both armies are well organized and fairly versatile, possessing varied types of soldiers as well as Intelligence, Communications, Engineering, Medical, Exploratory, and other auxiliary corps.
Army Weakness: Many of the numbers come from the mercenary corps, and the army is pretty average outside of their funding and discipline. They aren’t very special; they are unique from other armies, as a result of culture and some differences in how things are done, but they don’t generally have a super trait or anything similar
Naval Strength: The national navy and privateer corps are Incredibly well-funded and disciplined (leaving them with steam-assisted vessels, in possession of a significant amount of smaller vessels that they frequently put together in flotillas that are part of larger groups meant to overwhelm larger vessels, and they have access to shell guns) possess a significant amount of smaller vessels that they frequently use in swarms, and they have access to shell guns
Naval Weakness: Less sophisticated than most major rivals (they are about 1860-1870 level, but Oriental and Western European rivals, which are pretty plentiful, are 10 to 20 years ahead), lagging behind in research for ironclads when compared to the likes of Rome, and, like the army, they are pretty average outside of their funding and discipline
Further Military Description: The need for a larger army and navy revealed itself to the Yemen Sultanate over 50 years ago. In response, mercenary and privateer corporations were eventually leveraged, and the size of the state-operated army grew. Now numbering 178,000 (186,000 with the elite Yemeni Aden’s Guardian Guild) (not counting those in any of the artillery corps or those in the Communications, Medical, Engineering, or other auxiliary corps) regulars, the army is a mighty force more than capable of defending the Sultanate and its people. There exist 14 infantry divisions of 9,000 men each, and 8 cavalry divisions of 6,500 men each in the state army that protect the state and its colonies. The threat of powerful rivals in the form of Western Europeans and the Oriental nations culminated in the recruitment of 225,000 men from the mercenary corporations in the nation, which are largely Somali, Abyssinian, and Ethiopian; the corporations are able to be leveraged to provide mercenaries to other nations, they provide and are given a fairly decent income in exchange for their service. Extensive funding, training, and research has gone into maintaining a military that must be capable of defending itself against technologically sophisticated nations, lest the nation falls apart. They know better than to rely on their size, however, and know that the day may come when they prove to be insufficient for defending against a rival force. Each soldier is generally trained 4.5 to 7.5 months, the number being higher in times of peace, and when it is required soldiers will be levied from the population and deployed with little to no training; in training, there is a focus on loyalty, valor, honor, camaraderie, and similar traits.; there does exist an elite force of 8,000 men that have been trained since they were children, but they are generally separate from the rest of the army, and operate within the capital of Sana’a.

Then there exist the ‘fortress defenders’, whom are regular officers with less training than the national army meant to bolster the defenses of fortifications and military bases, all of which have been trained well in defending their charges, but aren’t generally anywhere near as capable as the Sultanate’s primary army. Additionally, a significant police force has been formed and operates in every settlement, but their numbers are not required as they function entirely as a domestic force, and the type of emergency that would call for their mobilization would mean that the state was about to fall.

Moving onto the navy; the national navy has 72 ships-of-the-line (all at or above third-rate on the RL British Empire’s rating system), 102 attack frigates, 270 frigates, and numerous corvettes, sloops-of-war, and support or auxiliary vessels (including bomb ships [ships equipped with mortars, which are still used, but not as much as they used to be because of the advent of effective shell guns], transport vessels, tenders, hospital ships, and a very sizable merchant fleet). The privateer navy, which operates largely in the Indian Ocean and has also been transformed into a force that can be rented out if necessary, has numbers eclipsing the national navy, but they are generally smaller vessels, and only larger privateer organizations of epic status operate anything like a first-rate, and most don’t operate anything larger than a frigate, with frigates not being incredibly common, either (I think I will have one or two of these organizations).

The vessels of the Sultanate and its privateer fleets are largely steam-assisted vessels equipped with standardized features that enable superior operation compared to how they operated in the 17th and 16th centuries. Shell guns, coppering to prevent rot, some smaller vessels on a warship or its tender to allow for escape if the ship is harmed, broader beams and a larger upper deck to support extensive sailplans, a narrower floor that allows the vessels to be faster (this is generally more efficient in smaller vessels, but larger vessels are just a little faster), they are built on composite construction (iron frames with wooden planking that allow for copper sheathing, decreased sagging and hogging, and the iron frames took up less interior space than wooden framing), the usage of more efficient woods in certain areas (lignum vitae for pieces that wear out quickly, which is imported), ammunition rooms are lined in metal to give some protection to the vessel should the gunpowder catch fire (probably just enough to allow escape), dedicated rams, and, finally, rockets for communication, SOSes, and shipboarding, all encourage the navy officers with additional moral, and add some much-needed advantages to the vessels, though they are largely based around physical design. Specialized attack frigates that are great frigate-sized exist that make use of these features, but have also had its storage areas replaced by two extra gun decks (the ship is raised a little to make use of all of them; gun deck number is raised to four, and cannons/shell gun numbers may approach 88); unfortunately, they have to be used in tandem with specialized tender ships.

It is the general focus of the military to protect the nation’s sovereign borders and interests, expand territory, insure the survival of culture, and prevent any and all incursions by outside forces.

National Goals: Overall, they wish to make sure that Islam survives, even if it isn’t pure Islam anymore. They wish to become independent of imports of coal and other industrial materials, and also to have the ability to become independent of Western firms, but not necessarily to abandon their contracts with them.
National Issues: Natural resources (such as coal, and such for steel and, oh, I dunno, an actual industrial revolution), the lagging behind their rivals, certain regional alliances (getting rid of them is out of the question, so cozying up to them is more likely), highly efficient and sophisticated competition from Western Europe and the Oriental nations, ‘rebel’ groups of pirates that refused becoming a privateer company in the Empire. There are “small” (by small, I mean moderately sized. They’re not super dangerous, and my nation isn’t falling apart as they are generally geographically separated, but there is one particular force that poses a threat to legitimacy) rebellions (HERESIES!) taking place because of the Ibadi tribes of Oman, while Orthodox and other missionaries travel from South Africa and the Mediterranean, trying to convert my people. The Gulf of Persia leads to Zoroastrian missionaries entering the Empire’s heartland. The travels of missionaries result in odd variations and combinations of religions seeking peace to form. Then there are the Solomonists, who have been around since the 1600s (possibly longer), which pose the most dangerous threat to the Sultanate of Yemen, as they are a politically adept religious organization based in the Horn of Africa that has a leader who claims to be descended from both the Prophet Mohammed and King Solomon, endangering the dynasty’s control of the Red Sea.
National Ambition/Aspirations: To become more sophisticated, self-sustaining, and less fearful than they are now. They envision a much more prosperous nation, and this is idealized in things like the painting of lush, but still metaphorical and somewhat abstract landscapes of Arabia (the lushness is a metaphor for what they want the nation to become, and the abstract styles slowly formed as people started introducing ways to prevent them for being mistaken for actual landscapes), which adds to the affluent, ambitious, but ultimately unsatisfied cultural identity seen in Rasuli.

History:

  • Before 1096: As per real life, there was a massive spread of Islam, but it did not reach far past the Yazd province of present day Iran, and found more of a home in the western and southern areas of Africa (and in India).
  • 1096: The Crusades begin
  • 1098: The states of Yemen and Oman form a personal union
  • 1229: Rasulid Dynasty is founded by Umar ibn Rasul, conquests begin
  • 1234: The Muslim Kingdoms of the Horn of Africa begin sending their sons to Yemen and Oman to study, bringing people and military support to the Rasuli Empire. This would dampen the blows that the Ninth Crusade would later inflict upon the Empire.
  • 1271-1272: The Ninth Crusade occurs, with the Empire of Rasuli suffering, but recovering to its former levels within a decade.
  • 1278: Recovery from the Ninth Crusade nears completion
  • 1298: Plagues sweep through the Empire, ending another short-lived era of prosperity.
  • 1331: The Empire begins marrying off the sons and daughters of the House of Rasulid, making use of the close alliances they held with the Muslim Kingdoms of the Horn of Africa, and they take advantage of their alliances. Over time, the Muslim Kingdoms would become more subservient, and eventually be absorbed.
  • 1441: Extinguishment of major rebellions, ushering in a new era of peace under the Rasulid dynasty within the state, and preventing the fall of the Rasulid dynasty in 1454
  • 1442: The defeat of Egypt in the Red Sea leads to total control over the Hejaz, leading to an era of both peace and prosperity, and leaving the Rasulid dynasty rulers of a nation now seen as the rightful successor to the world’s former Muslim Caliphates.
  • 1445: The Sultan dies, and the first Sultana of the state rises to prominence as a result of strange circumstance, and a devastated royal family. She makes sweeping reforms, and changes the Sultanate’s views of women, as well as how foreign and economic policy was handled, with the focus on slavery being shifted to the Sultana’s hope of abolishing slavery. Her actions would also insure the survival of the Rasulid dynasty.
  • 1465: The Almulahhimi Sultana is assassinated, the perpetrator escaping. It becomes a day of mourning in the Yemeni state.
  • 1545: The First Century Anniversary of the Almulahhimi Sultana ascendance sees the abolition of Sharia law, and the implementation of a combination of Roman law and some secular ideals. The descendants of the Almulahhimi Sultana had gathered their allies, both foreign and domestic, and prevented any major uprisings from occurring, efforts that were almost certainly aided by the development of the Empire’s more peaceful, open-minded agglomerate culture.
  • 1571: The first stock market is established. It is not as developed as those in Europe, but that would change in the future.
  • 1578: The first mercenary company/corporation is established.
  • 1583: The first privateer company/corporation is established. While independent from the state, it had agreed to certain things in exchange for being served first, a decent amount of pay, and a safe-haven in the empire, much of which had also been granted to the first mercenary corporation back in 1577.
  • 1612: 13 members of the House of Rasulid are killed during a pirate attack on a small flotilla. The escort flotilla was the only one available because of a shortage of vessels due to combating the pirates. Afterwards, they put their privateer corps and remaining state-operated vessels into override, calling upon what allies they could find in the matter of dealing with pirates in the Indian Ocean, and managing to convince many of them to become privateer corporations or companies, though they were to undergo a period of not attacking certain powers that aided them for quite some time (over a century, actually. It was the only way that the Empire could convince other states to continue to aid them once they realized what the Empire wanted to do), but there were also many others that rebelled, and pirates still terrorize the Indian Ocean because of that.
  • 1630: Conquests along the eastern coast of Africa take place
  • 1645: The Second Century Anniversary of the Almulahhimi Sultana ascendance sees the abolition of slavery.
  • 1667: The first Solomonist rebellion breaks out in Ethiopia, marking the beginning of the most dangerous dissident threat to the Empire.
  • 1712: The state’s agreement not to use privateers against certain nations ends. The state does not yet change their use of the privateers.
  • 1713: The Rasulid dynasty quickly rises to prominence, controlling trade and ports in southeast Africa and several other areas of the Indian Ocean, which wouldn’t be broken any time soon.
  • 1767: The second Solomonist rebellion breaks out in Ethiopia.
  • 1842: The Sultanate makes contact with several Western firms, hoping to come to agreement on the construction of extensive networks of railways and telegraph lines, as well as education on how to manage them, and future aid in maintenance.
  • 1845: First shell gun reaches the Sultanate of Yemen
  • 1850: A Solomonist rebellion breaks out in Ethiopia.
  • 1854: After nearly a decade of development, a more sophisticated shell gun is produced by the Imperial Arsenal’s research and development branch.
  • 1867: The Empire reaches an economic and military level of development that they, for some reason, see as a cause for celebration, marking a day that would forever include falling asleep in a drunken stupor. Still, the population is not completely satisfied with the nation as it is.
  • 1870: Modern day

Comparison Points – Political: 2.5
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious: 2.5
Comparison Points – Economy: 3
Comparison Points – Military: 2
Total Comparison Points used (10 Points MAX): 10/10


Here's my app, Vampyvamp. If Persia isn't being made, though, can I have that strip on the Hormuz Strait I had historically? They said that they might be making Nepal, which I expect to be stronk.

They said they might, so for the moment, we'll see what happens. I'll look over your app.
I'm a Romanian, a vampire, an anime enthusiast and a roleplayer.
Hello there! I am Tracian Empire! You can call me Tracian, Thrace, Thracian, Thracr, Thracc or whatever you want. Really.

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Tracian Empire
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24143
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:53 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Seinlo wrote:Maybe I should have waited for you guys to figure this out before I made a post.



Our kebab friend made a Guidance.

"Kebab" is a vaguely offensive slang term for Turks. I've found the relative guidance and it's by Elerian, who is playing India.

Does this mean that Japan, Korea and China are more technologically advanced than Western Europe?

Difficult to say. That guidance places the Roman tech above the Western European tech, and the Oriental guidance that I knew was placing the Oriental nations on the same level as the Westerners.

Though what would that mean? Westerners already have a 10 year boost. Would the Romans have what, 11?
I'm a Romanian, a vampire, an anime enthusiast and a roleplayer.
Hello there! I am Tracian Empire! You can call me Tracian, Thrace, Thracian, Thracr, Thracc or whatever you want. Really.

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The V O I D
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16007
Founded: Apr 13, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The V O I D » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:54 am

Sanabel wrote:
The V O I D wrote:
Well, sort of, I guess? Aside from those belonging to the Roman Tech Group. RTG and its associates / nations almost in it is more advanced than Asia still.

That means Imperium Romanum, the Italian Empire, Persia [maybe?], Ruthenia [also maybe?] and a few others.

I dont think there are any others.


Oh. Then yeah, other than those 4 nations (3 of which are 'in Europe'), I'd say Asia is slightly more advanced than ETG.

So, tech-wise, from 'lowest' to 'highest' would be ETG<ATG[asian techgroup]<RTG. I am between the ATG and RTG, based on my conversations with Thrace, if we're being more specific than just ETG and RTG.

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Old Tyrannia
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Posts: 15372
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:54 am

The V O I D wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:"Kebab" is a vaguely offensive slang term for Turks. I've found the relative guidance and it's by Elerian, who is playing India.

Does this mean that Japan, Korea and China are more technologically advanced than Western Europe?


Well, sort of, I guess? Aside from those belonging to the Roman Tech Group. RTG and its associates / nations almost in it is more advanced than Asia still.

That means Imperium Romanum, the Italian Empire, Persia [maybe?], Ruthenia [also maybe?] and a few others.

Based on the wording of the guidance, it seems to me that the Roman tech group is a subgroup within the Western family, and is only superior to other Europeans. Given that older guidances explicitly put East Asia on equal terms with Europe, that would make us the equals of Rome, which is now the leading technological power in Europe. Elerian's guidance actually sounds as if it's reducing the tech level of Western Europe rather than raising that of Rome specifically, so it wouldn't have a negative effect on East Asia. We should be on at least equal terms with the Romans.
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Seinlo
Diplomat
 
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Founded: Oct 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:56 am

I'm thinking of a guidance for the Indian Ocean and other nations that is essentially an economic boom, making the Indian Ocean states and those in the surrounding gulfs and seas (Red Sea, Gulf of Persia, Gulf of Aden, et cetera) powerful economic centers.

It may also build on Elerian's guidance, and have brought technology and sciences from Rome to nations in these areas. It wouldn't mean an industrialized Yemen or India, or even be a legitimate tech boost, but some tech would have leaked into the surrounding nations, and though it might not industrialize a nation, it'll leave them looking civilized. "Western" ideas like aqueducting, city cleaning, and Western education systems may come with it. I don't know about this second part, though, as it may be tokmuch, or it may be changed a lot to be something that's better (in quality, not in the sense of giving the Indian Ocean nations more).

Right now, I need to figure out the full effect of this economic boom, and exactly how it happened.

I'm new to guidances, and will probably brainstorm with Elerian before I finalize anything, since he/she kindly offered to brainstorm with me. I'm getting lots of help from you guys, and really apprecoate the mentoring from Danceria and Elerian, and the frank honesty and general aid from Thrace, Sanabel, Novacom, and everyone else. You guys are great ^-^

If you have any suggestions, please reply with them or TG me.
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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:57 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
The V O I D wrote:
Well, sort of, I guess? Aside from those belonging to the Roman Tech Group. RTG and its associates / nations almost in it is more advanced than Asia still.

That means Imperium Romanum, the Italian Empire, Persia [maybe?], Ruthenia [also maybe?] and a few others.

Based on the wording of the guidance, it seems to me that the Roman tech group is a subgroup within the Western family, and is only superior to other Europeans. Given that older guidances explicitly put East Asia on equal terms with Europe, that would make us the equals of Rome, which is now the leading technological power in Europe. Elerian's guidance actually sounds as if it's reducing the tech level of Western Europe rather than raising that of Rome specifically, so it wouldn't have a negative effect on East Asia. We should be on at least equal terms with the Romans.


Huh I thought the old guidances made Germany the most advanced nation in town...
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:57 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
The V O I D wrote:
Well, sort of, I guess? Aside from those belonging to the Roman Tech Group. RTG and its associates / nations almost in it is more advanced than Asia still.

That means Imperium Romanum, the Italian Empire, Persia [maybe?], Ruthenia [also maybe?] and a few others.

Based on the wording of the guidance, it seems to me that the Roman tech group is a subgroup within the Western family, and is only superior to other Europeans. Given that older guidances explicitly put East Asia on equal terms with Europe, that would make us the equals of Rome, which is now the leading technological power in Europe. Elerian's guidance actually sounds as if it's reducing the tech level of Western Europe rather than raising that of Rome specifically, so it wouldn't have a negative effect on East Asia. We should be on at least equal terms with the Romans.

That's why I said, I'm not sure.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:58 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:Based on the wording of the guidance, it seems to me that the Roman tech group is a subgroup within the Western family, and is only superior to other Europeans. Given that older guidances explicitly put East Asia on equal terms with Europe, that would make us the equals of Rome, which is now the leading technological power in Europe. Elerian's guidance actually sounds as if it's reducing the tech level of Western Europe rather than raising that of Rome specifically, so it wouldn't have a negative effect on East Asia. We should be on at least equal terms with the Romans.


Huh I thought the old guidances made Germany the most advanced nation in town...

And Elerian pretty much made another guidance that bypasses that.
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The V O I D
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Postby The V O I D » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:58 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
The V O I D wrote:
Well, sort of, I guess? Aside from those belonging to the Roman Tech Group. RTG and its associates / nations almost in it is more advanced than Asia still.

That means Imperium Romanum, the Italian Empire, Persia [maybe?], Ruthenia [also maybe?] and a few others.

Based on the wording of the guidance, it seems to me that the Roman tech group is a subgroup within the Western family, and is only superior to other Europeans. Given that older guidances explicitly put East Asia on equal terms with Europe, that would make us the equals of Rome, which is now the leading technological power in Europe. Elerian's guidance actually sounds as if it's reducing the tech level of Western Europe rather than raising that of Rome specifically, so it wouldn't have a negative effect on East Asia. We should be on at least equal terms with the Romans.


...Fair enough assessment. Then, if that's the case, I guess if RTG and ATG are equal, I'm towards RTG/ATG more than I am anywhere close to ETG.

Assuming that my ETG<ATG<RTG hypothesis is the correct one, tho, that means I'm above ATG but slightly below RTG.

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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:58 am

Tracian Empire wrote:
Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Huh I thought the old guidances made Germany the most advanced nation in town...

And Elerian pretty much made another guidance that bypasses that.


AH I see. Well do we all have our guidance counter back?
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:00 am

Okay so, Seinlo. Your app largely looks good, and bear with me, but the history will still have to be worked on once we properly decide what happened to the Islam and the Crusades.

In the rest, I think that you may have to reduce the number of mercenaries, because at least to me, it seems huge, but mercenaries aren't exactly my strong point.
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Old Tyrannia
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:00 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:Based on the wording of the guidance, it seems to me that the Roman tech group is a subgroup within the Western family, and is only superior to other Europeans. Given that older guidances explicitly put East Asia on equal terms with Europe, that would make us the equals of Rome, which is now the leading technological power in Europe. Elerian's guidance actually sounds as if it's reducing the tech level of Western Europe rather than raising that of Rome specifically, so it wouldn't have a negative effect on East Asia. We should be on at least equal terms with the Romans.


Huh I thought the old guidances made Germany the most advanced nation in town...

That's a good point. Elerian's new guidance doesn't really work with the lore of previous guidances.
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Seinlo
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Postby Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:00 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Seinlo wrote:Maybe I should have waited for you guys to figure this out before I made a post.



Our kebab friend made a Guidance.

"Kebab" is a vaguely offensive slang term for Turks. I've found the relative guidance and it's by Elerian, who is playing India.

Does this mean that Japan, Korea and China are more technologically advanced than Western Europe?


Sanabel called India kebab yesterday as a joke. I tend to turn everything intk a nickname. I'm sorry :( I didn't know it was a mean thing.

Sanabel wrote:
Seinlo wrote:
Not everyone can be in the Roman tech group, though, just like it'd be kind of weird to get even more industrialized nations. Honestly, I think that the Roman tech group should be small, as in 2 or 3 nations. 4 at the most.

Lol, as of now, there are two nations in it. Ruthenia is actually Roman, too. Aaaand, who made you OP?


No one msde me OP. It's called an opinion. I mean, I was essentially comparing the industrialization of nations like myself to having half a dozen Roman nations.

I don't know if being in the Roman tech group is decided on geographical location, cultural identity, or a mixture of both, so if someone could explain that, then maybe I would understand better.

Sorry if I caused any issues, Sanabel
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:01 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Tracian Empire wrote:And Elerian pretty much made another guidance that bypasses that.


AH I see. Well do we all have our guidance counter back?

In what sense?

I believe that it still remains at two guidances per player, with the old players like us having already used one.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:01 am

Seinlo wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:"Kebab" is a vaguely offensive slang term for Turks. I've found the relative guidance and it's by Elerian, who is playing India.

Does this mean that Japan, Korea and China are more technologically advanced than Western Europe?


Sanabel called India kebab yesterday as a joke. I tend to turn everything intk a nickname. I'm sorry :( I didn't know it was a mean thing.

Sanabel wrote:Lol, as of now, there are two nations in it. Ruthenia is actually Roman, too. Aaaand, who made you OP?


No one msde me OP. It's called an opinion. I mean, I was essentially comparing the industrialization of nations like myself to having half a dozen Roman nations.

I don't know if being in the Roman tech group is decided on geographical location, cultural identity, or a mixture of both, so if someone could explain that, then maybe I would understand better.

Sorry if I caused any issues, Sanabel

As far as I'm concerned is decided on connections to Rome, which include all the facts that you mentioned.
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Trotza
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Postby Trotza » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:03 am

Would the Majapahit belong in the Oriental tech group.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:03 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Huh I thought the old guidances made Germany the most advanced nation in town...

That's a good point. Elerian's new guidance doesn't really work with the lore of previous guidances.

Not necessarily. I mean yes, it certainly does affect my nation's lore, which will have to be rewritten, but it's an old idea, Oscal proposed it at a point way back in one of the first threads if I remember correctly.

And at least from what I understand, it doesn't lower the tech level of the Westerners, it merely places the Roman tech group above it.
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Novacom
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Postby Novacom » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:04 am

The V O I D wrote:
Novacom wrote:
I know and Italia is still European, they can count as Romanizing however that's it anything other ends up being metagaming.


No, it's literally not metagaming. 270 years of relations since 1600.

A lot can happen in 270 years realistically, Nova. Plus, Italia is a Roman Imperial Italia and was influenced/controlled by East-Rome in the past, before East-Rome had stuff to do that allowed the Kingdom of Italia to be freed, subsequently allowing for the Italian Empire to eventually form.

I am in between the tech groups, and am very near-Roman Tech Group.


I'll put it this way then, ALL of Europe is affected by that Guidance, and friendly with Rome isn't enough, and most of Europe was controlled by Rome in the past, so again no dice, Guidance's are powerful and this one makes a lot of sense, I've conceded that you'd be Romanizing so in between European and Roman, but as for allowing people to arbitrarily declare themselves for one tech group or another when before this Guidance you benefited from another and didn't bat an eyelid.

Guidances are tough to get for a reason, as they are very powerful, and this one makes a lot of sense given the history.

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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:05 am

Tracian Empire wrote:
Second Helghan Empire wrote:
AH I see. Well do we all have our guidance counter back?

In what sense?

I believe that it still remains at two guidances per player, with the old players like us having already used one.


Okay that answers my question, I was wondering if we got our initial guidance back or not, I believe some no longer have effect.

Also wait how is elerian just overwriting an already in place guidance that explicitly says the industrial revolution begins in germany and that germany and western europe are the most advanced on par with East Asia? That wasn't how guidances worked we had to build off of the ones in place remember.
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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:06 am

Novacom wrote:
The V O I D wrote:
No, it's literally not metagaming. 270 years of relations since 1600.

A lot can happen in 270 years realistically, Nova. Plus, Italia is a Roman Imperial Italia and was influenced/controlled by East-Rome in the past, before East-Rome had stuff to do that allowed the Kingdom of Italia to be freed, subsequently allowing for the Italian Empire to eventually form.

I am in between the tech groups, and am very near-Roman Tech Group.


I'll put it this way then, ALL of Europe is affected by that Guidance, and friendly with Rome isn't enough, and most of Europe was controlled by Rome in the past, so again no dice, Guidance's are powerful and this one makes a lot of sense, I've conceded that you'd be Romanizing so in between European and Roman, but as for allowing people to arbitrarily declare themselves for one tech group or another when before this Guidance you benefited from another and didn't bat an eyelid.

Guidances are tough to get for a reason, as they are very powerful, and this one makes a lot of sense given the history.


We still cannot cancel one guidance with another, they have to build on each other.

Example: Guidance 1 says east asia is as advanced as Europe, Guidance 2 says yes but europe got a head start to more fully develop railways etc.
Last edited by Second Helghan Empire on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:06 am

Elerian's guidance also seems to be build not only on the West never making contact with the Islam and their knowledge, but also on a Roman isolationism that never allowed the knowledge of Constantinople to spread towards Europe, like it did in real life when the city fell.
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