1870 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][REBOOT]

[Seinlo]

Everyone is so worried about insuring the dominance of silly little Europe that they are ignoring my questions.

Try to look carefully a few posts above.

I don't see it :c sigh, I'll keep looking

[Tracian Empire]

Because unlike the West which fell into the Dark Ages and lost the knowledge of Antiquity, the Byzantines maintained it, and constantly remained more advanced than the West in countless aspects for most of their history. The transfer of some of that knowledge through the migration that was caused by the fall of Constantinople marked the Renaissance.

The Dark Ages was the direct result of the Church suppressing education or even literacy among any but it's higher echelons. Even monarchs were often illiterate. With the only literates adhering strictly to religious doctrine, there's not a lot of innovation. If the Byzantines didn't do that then knowledges spread.

The Dark Ages were also a direct result of countless underdeveloped barbarians pouring into Western Europe, something that the Eastern Romans were spared from. The Byzantines themselves however, had the advantage of having maintained the knowledge of the Romans, or being relatively safe from barbarian attacks, of having a society that encouraged literacy, or having more urban areas, and of having more contacts with the Orient through the Silk Road.

[Tracian Empire]

With my borders with and close proximity to Rome, as well as the nature of the guidance, I'm assuming that my nation would have more occur than assimilating some Roman culture and law. Could someone tell mw what those would be? I mean, I get that we would have been the ones to give them knowledge and thw like, but what would happen to /us/?

Difficult to say. You are Muslim, and there is a desert between us.

[Seinlo]

With my borders with and close proximity to Rome, as well as the nature of the guidance, I'm assuming that my nation would have more occur than assimilating some Roman culture and law. Could someone tell mw what those would be? I mean, I get that we would have been the ones to give them knowledge and thw like, but what would happen to /us/?

Difficult to say. You are Muslim, and there is a desert between us.

Oh, I see it. Yes, but the reason that you became so advanced was in part thanks to your contact with Islam. Right? I mean, Islam had algebra while Europe was full of idiots and bad maths, so I think this is abit right.

[Novacom]

Because unlike the West which fell into the Dark Ages and lost the knowledge of Antiquity, the Byzantines maintained it, and constantly remained more advanced than the West in countless aspects for most of their history. The transfer of some of that knowledge through the migration that was caused by the fall of Constantinople marked the Renaissance.

The Dark Ages was the direct result of the Church suppressing education or even literacy among any but it's higher echelons. Even monarchs were often illiterate. With the only literates adhering strictly to religious doctrine, there's not a lot of innovation. If the Byzantines didn't do that then knowledges spread.

I'd agree on that the Pagan Nations would be in a position to be more advanced, however then it's a slippery slope with people wanting to all of a sudden wholesale rewrite apps for a tech benefit...

As for Knowledge spreading from Trace? are you serious Cymrea? what have you been smoking? have you forgotten how ballistic Trace got over the idea that his Greek Fire would have been lost because only two people in the empire (before he finally changed it) knew the secret, he no doubt had some sort of Orwellian organisation preventing anything leaving the borders alive!

[Novacom]

Difficult to say. You are Muslim, and there is a desert between us.

Oh, I see it. Yes, but the reason that you became so advanced was in part thanks to your contact with Islam. Right? I mean, Islam had algebra while Europe was full of idiots and bad maths, so I think this is abit right.

Seinlo I'll save everyone a headache, you count as Islamic tech group with all the disadvantages and advantages it had, history changed Islam didn't get as advanced. End Of.

[Tracian Empire]

Difficult to say. You are Muslim, and there is a desert between us.

Oh, I see it. Yes, but the reason that you became so advanced was in part thanks to your contact with Islam. Right? I mean, Islam had algebra while Europe was full of idiots and bad maths, so I think this is abit right.

Not necessarily. Islam in this timeline mostly never got the point of becoming that advanced. And also, Islam traditionally crashes down its advantage after the end of the Middle Ages.

[Old Tyrannia]

大日本海国
Dai Nippon Kaikoku

Full Nation Name : Thalassocracy of Greater Japan (大日本海国, Dai Nippon Kaikoku)
Majority/Official Culture : Japanese
Territorial Core : Japanese home islands, Ryukyu Islands, Alaska, Kuril Islands, Kamchatka Peninsula, Sakhalin, Taiwan, Hawaii, Micronesia, Guam, Mariana Islands, Nanpō Islands, Minamitori Island and the Philippines.
Territorial Claim : Fiji, Tonga, Solomon Islands, New Zealand, Yukon Territory, Pacific Northwest.
Capital City : Kyoto
Population : 41.9 million (27.1 million for the home islands; 14.8 million in colonies).

Government Type : Ceremonial diarchy under traditionalist hereditary dictatorship
Government Ideology/Policies : Imperialism, mercantilism, traditionalism, Confucianism
Government Focus : Economic growth, maintaining dominant position in the north Pacific, colonial expansion.
Head of State : Their Imperial Majesties, the Emperors of the Northern and Southern Courts.
Head of Government : Her Highness the Imperial Regent, Lady Toyotomi Hinami.
Government Description : The ultimate fount of all authority is considered to be the two co-emperors of Japan, who rule by virtue of their descent from the sun deity, Amaterasu-Omikami. In practice, however, authority is exercised by the Toyotomi clan as imperial regents or kampaku. There are two parallel governments within the Japanese Empire- one for the home islands of the Japanese people, referred to as Yamatokoku (大和国), and one for the overseas empire, known as the state of the sea or Kaikoku (海国), often translated as thalassocracy. Since all relations with tributary and barbarian states is dealt with by the Kaikoku-seifu (海国政府), the thalassocratic government, the latter is generally recognised as the relevant sovereign entity by foreign powers who refer to Japan in formal terms as 大日本海国, Dai Nippon Kaikoku. The supreme head of both governments is the kampaku (関白), meaning civil dictator or regent. The government of Yamatokoku consists of the Council of State, the Daijō-kan (太政官), and the Eight Ministries. In practice the imperial regent generally deals mostly with the affairs of the Kaikoku, whilst the Chancellor of the Realm (Daijō-daijin, 太政大臣), an official appointed by the regent, heads the administration of the Yamatokoku. The Kaikoku-seifu is formed of three secretariats, the Secretariat of Martial Affairs, the Secretariat of External Relations and the Secretariat of Civil Administration. The first oversees the defence of the Japanese empire; the second deals with foreign affairs, and the last is responsible for appointing colonial officials, collecting revenue and overseeing the implementation of justice outside the home islands. Each is headed by a secretary appointed by the regent.

Majority/State Religion : Most Japanese practise a combination of Shinto, Buddhism and Confucianism.

Economic Ideologies : Mercantilism
Major Production : Coal, steel, foodstuffs, luxury goods such as tea, silk and furniture
Economic Description : Japan has one of the strongest economies in the world. It is an industrialised power, the second in East Asia after Korea, and dominates maritime commerce in the Pacific. Much of Japan's colonial expansion has been driven by the need to fuel industrialisation by acquiring new sources of fossil fuels, which are scarce in the home islands. Japan is also a major producer of many luxury and manufactured goods. The government has an interventionist approach to economics, maintaining a close relationship with the powerful merchant clans that control most of the economy. Protectionist and mercantilist policies are in place to encourage production within the empire and reduce the outflow of wealth from importing foreign goods. The basics of a welfare state are beginning to be implemented, based on Confucian ideals of reciprocal loyalty between lords (employers) and servants (employees), and prompted by unrest at the poor conditions faced by workers.

Army Strength : 822,560 troops strong, efficiently organised and fanatically loyal. Japanese culture promotes courage in battle and troops would rather die than surrender to the enemy.
Army Weakness : The officer class, largely drawn from old samurai families, remain highly conservative in outlook and are yet to fully accept modern military doctrine and reconcile it with the samurai warrior code, whilst the rank-and-file are largely made up of ill-equipped and poorly-trained conscripts. Japan's army suffers from a lack of cavalry and artillery.
Naval Strength : The Imperial Japanese Navy (日本海軍, Nippon Kaigun) is the largest and best funded naval force in East Asia. Its newest ships are among the world's most technologically advanced, and the Japanese have a strong naval tradition with a well established, tried and tested naval doctrine.
Naval Weakness : Decades of complacency have eroded the technological edge of Japan's fleets, with many ships being somewhat outdated, and it will take time to fully replace them with newer classes. Additionally many of the navy's officers achieved their position by birth rather than through merit, and are untested in a real battle scenario.
Further Military Description : TBA

National Goals : To consolidate Japan's position as the main naval power of east and southeast Asia, whilst expanding into Australasia and North America.
National Issues : Japan faces the challenge of modernising its large but increasingly outdated fleets, end its diplomatic isolation by securing new alliances, strengthen its army in order to defend and expand its continental possessions. Additionally, the Thalassocracy faces factionalism amongst the ruling elites at home and the threat of insurgency from its colonies.
National Figures of Interest :

• Emperor of the Southern Court (南朝天皇, Nanchō Tennō): Personal name Yutanari (寛成). 58 years old. The older of Japan's co-sovereigns, Yutanari was known in his youth for his profligacy and inattention to study, preferring to spend time gambling, hunting and pursuing women. However his attitudes have changed with age, and he has become increasingly conservative, adopting an ascetic lifestyle and performing his obligations as emperor with dutiful devotion. Maintains a strictly Confucian court with close attention to protocol, but also a deeply devoted Zen Buddhist. His era name is Shōzū (正崇), meaning "upright and honourable."
• Emperor of the Northern Court (北朝天皇, Hokuchō Tennō): Personal name Kenshō (賢章). 19 years old. The younger of Japan's co-sovereigns, only a year into his reign following the abdication of his grandfather. Bright, idealistic and open-minded, the Northern Emperor is known to be pro-reform whilst remaining a devoted Confucian. Although dutiful he is more inclined to question the established way of doing things than his southern counterpart. His era name is Shōkyō (昌慶), meaning "prosperous and jubilant."
• Toyotomi Hinami (豊臣日南): 31 years old. The first woman to hold the title of kampaku, Lady Hinami is the daughter of previous imperial regent Toyotomi Hatsuo. She succeeded him as regent due to the lack of male heirs, with her father asking for and being granted a special edict approved by both emperors allowing the position to be filled by a woman in order to secure her legitimacy. Her husband, Toyotomi Motozane, is the head of a junior branch of the Toyotomi clan, although said branch broke off from the main line some 200 years ago, meaning the couple are not closely related. Their marriage was arranged to secure the Toyotomi clan's control of the office of regent. Charming and cultured, Hinami has proven a capable leader, embodying the ideal of the Yamato-Nadeshiko; a proper lady with a streak of iron. Her rule has been characterised by cautious reform and an increasingly ambitious and assertive foreign policy.

National Ambition/Aspirations : To become the leader of a politically and economically dominant coalition of countries under East Asian cultural influence, pursuing a civilising mission amongst the barbarians of the world. Hakkō ichiu.

History : TBA.

Comparison Points – Political : 2
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious : 2
Comparison Points – Economy : 5
Comparison Points – Military : 3
Total Comparison Points used : 13/13

[Seinlo]

There are so many people talking, and I don't know what to do...

Oh, I see it. Yes, but the reason that you became so advanced was in part thanks to your contact with Islam. Right? I mean, Islam had algebra while Europe was full of idiots and bad maths, so I think this is abit right.

Seinlo I'll save everyone a headache, you count as Islamic tech group with all the disadvantages and advantages it had, history changed Islam didn't get as advanced. End Of.

Alrighty. How are there any advantages, though? I mean, we're probably better at math, but rhat doesn't help me because I have a disability with maths... Which makes this kind of ironic. Lol

[Tracian Empire]

The Dark Ages was the direct result of the Church suppressing education or even literacy among any but it's higher echelons. Even monarchs were often illiterate. With the only literates adhering strictly to religious doctrine, there's not a lot of innovation. If the Byzantines didn't do that then knowledges spread.

I'd agree on that the Pagan Nations would be in a position to be more advanced, however then it's a slippery slope with people wanting to all of a sudden wholesale rewrite apps for a tech benefit...

As for Knowledge spreading from Trace? are you serious Cymrea? what have you been smoking? have you forgotten how ballistic Trace got over the idea that his Greek Fire would have been lost because only two people in the empire (before he finally changed it) knew the secret, he no doubt had some sort of Orwellian organisation preventing anything leaving the borders alive!

Leaving that aside, it's about basic Byzantine Western relations. There are good reasons for why the Byzantine knowledge never leaked to the West in real life too.

[Seinlo]

Oh, I see it. Yes, but the reason that you became so advanced was in part thanks to your contact with Islam. Right? I mean, Islam had algebra while Europe was full of idiots and bad maths, so I think this is abit right.

Not necessarily. Islam in this timeline mostly never got the point of becoming that advanced. And also, Islam traditionally crashes down its advantage after the end of the Middle Ages.

Okay, then. I will be part of the Muslim tech group.

[Novacom]

There are so many people talking, and I don't know what to do...

Seinlo I'll save everyone a headache, you count as Islamic tech group with all the disadvantages and advantages it had, history changed Islam didn't get as advanced. End Of.

Alrighty. How are there any advantages, though? I mean, we're probably better at math, but rhat doesn't help me because I have a disability with maths... Which makes this kind of ironic. Lol

Actually no, you wouldn't be better at Math, the Islamic Golden Age NEVER happened, as for it's advantages, myself and Elerian are working on something that might also settle some of this mess down.

[Tracian Empire]

As for what to do, a compromise would be the best. Perhaps somehow lowering the Western group a little, but not that much as for it to be unfair to the Western players, while bringing the Roman tech in would be for the best.

[Danceria]

I think I speak for everyone with overpowered ambitions upon the revelation of these new "tech groups"

[Cymrea]

The Dark Ages was the direct result of the Church suppressing education or even literacy among any but it's higher echelons. Even monarchs were often illiterate. With the only literates adhering strictly to religious doctrine, there's not a lot of innovation. If the Byzantines didn't do that then knowledges spread.

The Dark Ages were also a direct result of countless underdeveloped barbarians pouring into Western Europe, something that the Eastern Romans were spared from. The Byzantines themselves however, had the advantage of having maintained the knowledge of the Romans, or being relatively safe from barbarian attacks, of having a society that encouraged literacy, or having more urban areas, and of having more contacts with the Orient through the Silk Road.

I suppose Helghan and Danceria will need to be included in that "barbarian invasions" part of history, but for Cambria, I will also submit that the pagan revival in the early-to-mid 16th Century will mean much less impact on the eventual Renaissance - perhaps a Cambrian Renaissance? - and eventual industrialisation.

[Seinlo]

I'm thinking of a guidance for the Indian Ocean and other nations that is essentially an economic boom, making the Indian Ocean states and those in the surrounding gulfs and seas (Red Sea, Gulf of Persia, Gulf of Aden, et cetera) powerful economic centers.

It may also build on Elerian's guidance, and have brought technology and sciences from Rome to nations in these areas. It wouldn't mean an industrialized Yemen or India, or even be a legitimate tech boost, but some tech would have leaked into the surrounding nations, and though it might not industrialize a nation, it'll leave them looking civilized. "Western" ideas like aqueducting, city cleaning, and Western education systems may come with it. I don't know about this second part, though, as it may be tokmuch, or it may be changed a lot to be something that's better (in quality, not in the sense of giving the Indian Ocean nations more).

Right now, I need to figure out the full effect of this economic boom, and exactly how it happened.

I'm new to guidances, and will probably brainstorm with Elerian before I finalize anything, since he/she kindly offered to brainstorm with me. I'm getting lots of help from you guys, and really apprecoate the mentoring from Danceria and Elerian, and the frank honesty and general aid from Thrace, Sanabel, Novacom, and everyone else. You guys are great ^-^

If you have any suggestions, please reply with them or TG me.

Any advice for this guidance? An economic boom would be nice. Lots of wealth, but not lots of tech. Perhaps it just applies to the middle east and India, instead of everyone in the Indian Ocean.

There are so many people talking, and I don't know what to do...



Alrighty. How are there any advantages, though? I mean, we're probably better at math, but rhat doesn't help me because I have a disability with maths... Which makes this kind of ironic. Lol

Actually no, you wouldn't be better at Math, the Islamic Golden Age NEVER happened, as for it's advantages, myself and Elerian are working on something that might also settle some of this mess down.

Okay then ^-^ Being bad at math is something I'm so good at that I got a diagnosis. I will wait for this something that you are working on.

[Seinlo]

I think I speak for everyone with overpowered ambitions upon the revelation of these new "tech groups"

You're here! Could you please help me with my history, now, Danceria? I sent you the Google docs link. (Share it with no one. D; )

[Tracian Empire]

Perhaps, in order to keep everything in line, the Crusades should be mainly Orthodox in nature, not Catholic, and should deal more with helping the Romans defend their lands from the Turks.

[Old Tyrannia]

I think I speak for everyone with overpowered ambitions upon the revelation of these new "tech groups"

The idea of tech groups has been part of this RP since the start; they're not "new."

[Danceria]

I think I speak for everyone with overpowered ambitions upon the revelation of these new "tech groups"

You're here! Could you please help me with my history, now, Danceria? I sent you the Google docs link. (Share it with no one. D; )

I has the doc, but as I've mentioned in the link (of this video), we may have to punt scrap or both.

I think I speak for everyone with overpowered ambitions upon the revelation of these new "tech groups"

The idea of tech groups has been part of this RP since the start; they're not "new."

Well, they're new to me.

Are they like EU4 tech groups?

[Seinlo]

You're here! Could you please help me with my history, now, Danceria? I sent you the Google docs link. (Share it with no one. D; )

I has the doc, but as I've mentioned in the link (of this video), we may have to punt scrap or both.

The idea of tech groups has been part of this RP since the start; they're not "new."

Well, they're new to me.

Are they like EU4 tech groups?

I can't watch that video right now, and I don't know what you mean by punt or scrap. As in punt or scrap my history? :C

[Danceria]

I has the doc, but as I've mentioned in the link (of this video), we may have to punt scrap or both.

Well, they're new to me.

Are they like EU4 tech groups?

I can't watch that video right now, and I don't know what you mean by punt or scrap. As in punt or scrap my history? :C

Pretty much.

[Tracian Empire]

I can't watch that video right now, and I don't know what you mean by punt or scrap. As in punt or scrap my history? :C

Pretty much.

Why would that be?

I already said from the beginning that the early part with Crusades and all might not hold.

[Danceria]

Pretty much.

Why would that be?

I already said from the beginning that the early part with Crusades and all might not hold.

But as there was no Islamic Renaissance, the shrewdness of the Rasulids and power/techness that would ensue may not work.

[Tracian Empire]

Why would that be?

I already said from the beginning that the early part with Crusades and all might not hold.

But as there was no Islamic Renaissance, the shrewdness of the Rasulids and power/techness that would ensue may not work.

I said from the beginning that Islam is crushed and sent back early on. I can't afford a strong Muslim presence in the centuries needed for the Imperium to solidify its territories.