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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:07 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Tracian Empire wrote:In what sense?

I believe that it still remains at two guidances per player, with the old players like us having already used one.


Okay that answers my question, I was wondering if we got our initial guidance back or not, I believe some no longer have effect.

Also wait how is elerian just overwriting an already in place guidance that explicitly says the industrial revolution begins in germany and that germany and western europe are the most advanced on par with East Asia? That wasn't how guidances worked we had to build off of the ones in place remember.

I'm not understanding it as an overwriting. I understand it as building off it. The West remains with its tech, but the Roman group would simply historically have an edge over it.
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Novacom
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Postby Novacom » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:08 am

Tracian Empire wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:That's a good point. Elerian's new guidance doesn't really work with the lore of previous guidances.

Not necessarily. I mean yes, it certainly does affect my nation's lore, which will have to be rewritten, but it's an old idea, Oscal proposed it at a point way back in one of the first threads if I remember correctly.

And at least from what I understand, it doesn't lower the tech level of the Westerners, it merely places the Roman tech group above it.


Remember what Osc said, Guidances can Neutralize others, which is what this one did specifically the tech boost part of Helghans, the rest is still active, and it makes a lot of sense, there's numerous fields where Europe benefited from the scholars of Islam and vice versa, and then there's also the fall of Constantinople which didn't happen. Trace has taken away both of those events from everyone else, and Elerian has made it official that Europe is less advanced, Oriental is still more advanced, while Roman is now "modern" as in 1870, to argue it doesn't make any sense is to argue against a small yet important detail that's been lingering in the background for a long while.

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The V O I D
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Postby The V O I D » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:09 am

Novacom wrote:
The V O I D wrote:
No, it's literally not metagaming. 270 years of relations since 1600.

A lot can happen in 270 years realistically, Nova. Plus, Italia is a Roman Imperial Italia and was influenced/controlled by East-Rome in the past, before East-Rome had stuff to do that allowed the Kingdom of Italia to be freed, subsequently allowing for the Italian Empire to eventually form.

I am in between the tech groups, and am very near-Roman Tech Group.


I'll put it this way then, ALL of Europe is affected by that Guidance, and friendly with Rome isn't enough, and most of Europe was controlled by Rome in the past, so again no dice, Guidance's are powerful and this one makes a lot of sense, I've conceded that you'd be Romanizing so in between European and Roman, but as for allowing people to arbitrarily declare themselves for one tech group or another when before this Guidance you benefited from another and didn't bat an eyelid.

Guidances are tough to get for a reason, as they are very powerful, and this one makes a lot of sense given the history.


I'm happy as long as I am almost with Rome or in between and leaning towards Rome, because that's the kinda tech required to make my app and the little military tech it refers to actually exist and stuff.

Anything else is app-breaking for me.

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Old Tyrannia
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Postby Old Tyrannia » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:09 am

Trotza wrote:Would the Majapahit belong in the Oriental tech group.

No. China, Korea, Japan and probably Vietnam if it had a player constitute the Oriental grouping of nations. You could write a guidance stating that the Majapahit "orientalised", however, the same way many nations "westernised" in the 1800s. It would involve soaking up a degree of sinosphere culture, however.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:10 am

Novacom wrote:
Tracian Empire wrote:Not necessarily. I mean yes, it certainly does affect my nation's lore, which will have to be rewritten, but it's an old idea, Oscal proposed it at a point way back in one of the first threads if I remember correctly.

And at least from what I understand, it doesn't lower the tech level of the Westerners, it merely places the Roman tech group above it.


Remember what Osc said, Guidances can Neutralize others, which is what this one did specifically the tech boost part of Helghans, the rest is still active, and it makes a lot of sense, there's numerous fields where Europe benefited from the scholars of Islam and vice versa, and then there's also the fall of Constantinople which didn't happen. Trace has taken away both of those events from everyone else, and Elerian has made it official that Europe is less advanced, Oriental is still more advanced, while Roman is now "modern" as in 1870, to argue it doesn't make any sense is to argue against a small yet important detail that's been lingering in the background for a long while.

It is true that people have been pointing out that due to never releasing their knowledge, and due to being the only European state to have contact with Islam, Rome should have maintained a technological edge over the others, for quite a while.
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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:11 am

It explicitly says Europe outside of this roman tech group withered and didn't advance because of the lack of islam. That is overwriting the guidance. Perhaps if it was reworded to say that the Roman tech group maintained a slight edge then it would work better as building on.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:12 am

This does leave me in a pinch though.
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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:12 am

Osc said neutralizing but in practice made the guidance "neutralize" one another by building on them. Like in my previous example.
To explicitly cancel one out I don't feel is just.
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Seinlo
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Postby Seinlo » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:14 am

Tracian Empire wrote:Okay so, Seinlo. Your app largely looks good, and bear with me, but the history will still have to be worked on once we properly decide what happened to the Islam and the Crusades.

In the rest, I think that you may have to reduce the number of mercenaries, because at least to me, it seems huge, but mercenaries aren't exactly my strong point.


Thank you. I'm don't like my history, actually, but Danceria could help me expand it, and so could other knowledgable people. Fixing the things with Islam and such is another issue entirely, but I will get to it.

Just be aware that Novacom said that a guidance was not required for retconning the schism from history (or was it sole other OP? I don't remember, it was really late).

I would like to explain that these aren't your standard mercenaries. There are corporations and companies of mercenaries and privateers operating from the Rasuli Empire (or is it Rasul? I need to figure that out), using it as a safe-haven, and having been granted rights such as being served before foreign mercenaries, a safe-haven, and some other things, and though largely independent the law requires that the state provide them jaws, whether they arebeing contracted by the state itself, or some international third party (the circumstances in which their organizations were founded makes this so, as does the hope of the state to prevent them from fighting against them). They are a part of the economy, and mercenary work is seen as an admirable occupatioj most of the time, especially for those that have their weapons purchased by the state (there is a list of approved weapons and weapons types to avoid my nation ending up with a mercenary army using outdated weapons). I also think that I may have included artillerists, or auxiliary positions in the mercenary corps in that number, but I'm not entirely sure. Not all of them are citizens of my nation either, as we have interactions with foreigners that have established an organization in the nation, and I might edit it so that there is an even mixture.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:14 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:Osc said neutralizing but in practice made the guidance "neutralize" one another by building on them. Like in my previous example.
To explicitly cancel one out I don't feel is just.

And I do agree, I don't believe that Elerian ever had the intention to neutralize it.
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Novacom
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Postby Novacom » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:15 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:It explicitly says Europe outside of this roman tech group withered and didn't advance because of the lack of islam. That is overwriting the guidance. Perhaps if it was reworded to say that the Roman tech group maintained a slight edge then it would work better as building on.


I'm aware of what it says, I'm the one who helped sort it out (and did more than a bit of research the last few times this subject came up to know how accurate and viable this is)in full knowledge of the self serving fiasco it would then create, This puts Europe at something like 1860 down from 1880, it cancels line one of your guidance, not the other two lines, he's used his guidance to depower Europe a bit in a VERY realistic fashion.

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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:15 am

Tracian Empire wrote:
Second Helghan Empire wrote:Osc said neutralizing but in practice made the guidance "neutralize" one another by building on them. Like in my previous example.
To explicitly cancel one out I don't feel is just.

And I do agree, I don't believe that Elerian ever had the intention to neutralize it.


Like I said I just believe it needs slightly reworded.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:17 am

Seinlo wrote:
Tracian Empire wrote:Okay so, Seinlo. Your app largely looks good, and bear with me, but the history will still have to be worked on once we properly decide what happened to the Islam and the Crusades.

In the rest, I think that you may have to reduce the number of mercenaries, because at least to me, it seems huge, but mercenaries aren't exactly my strong point.


Thank you. I'm don't like my history, actually, but Danceria could help me expand it, and so could other knowledgable people. Fixing the things with Islam and such is another issue entirely, but I will get to it.

Just be aware that Novacom said that a guidance was not required for retconning the schism from history (or was it sole other OP? I don't remember, it was really late).

I would like to explain that these aren't your standard mercenaries. There are corporations and companies of mercenaries and privateers operating from the Rasuli Empire (or is it Rasul? I need to figure that out), using it as a safe-haven, and having been granted rights such as being served before foreign mercenaries, a safe-haven, and some other things, and though largely independent the law requires that the state provide them jaws, whether they arebeing contracted by the state itself, or some international third party (the circumstances in which their organizations were founded makes this so, as does the hope of the state to prevent them from fighting against them). They are a part of the economy, and mercenary work is seen as an admirable occupatioj most of the time, especially for those that have their weapons purchased by the state (there is a list of approved weapons and weapons types to avoid my nation ending up with a mercenary army using outdated weapons). I also think that I may have included artillerists, or auxiliary positions in the mercenary corps in that number, but I'm not entirely sure. Not all of them are citizens of my nation either, as we have interactions with foreigners that have established an organization in the nation, and I might edit it so that there is an even mixture.

I can't say much about Islam, but your history contains things that haven't been properly discussed yet, hence why that will probably have to be modified.

And in regards to that, my opinion still remains. Having more than half of the total of your military forces as mercenaries is pretty unlikely, rather reckless since they can turn on you easily, and more than that, it would be a huge strain on your economy. Hence why I would suggest lowering them considerably, and adding the option that your nation would be able to hire that many mercenaries in the case of a big war, constantly keeping over 200,000 mercenaries is pretty impossible.
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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:18 am

Novacom wrote:
Second Helghan Empire wrote:It explicitly says Europe outside of this roman tech group withered and didn't advance because of the lack of islam. That is overwriting the guidance. Perhaps if it was reworded to say that the Roman tech group maintained a slight edge then it would work better as building on.


I'm aware of what it says, I'm the one who helped sort it out (and did more than a bit of research the last few times this subject came up to know how accurate and viable this is)in full knowledge of the self serving fiasco it would then create, This puts Europe at something like 1860 down from 1880, it cancels line one of your guidance, not the other two lines, he's used his guidance to depower Europe a bit in a VERY realistic fashion.


Wouldn't that then also de-power asia?

also OP-board problem arrizes, If we start the precedent of using guidances to target regions as a negative force then where does that end?
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Postby Sanabel » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:19 am

Since Ruthenia has long bordered Rome, Novgorod was the main transit point of Hanseatic-Mediterranean trade, it is culturally Latinized, and has had close religious political and economic ties to Rome since 1200, so I'd say it's close to the RTG.

That's if the guidance is accepted, of course.
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Postby Trotza » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:22 am

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Trotza wrote:Would the Majapahit belong in the Oriental tech group.

No. China, Korea, Japan and probably Vietnam if it had a player constitute the Oriental grouping of nations. You could write a guidance stating that the Majapahit "orientalised", however, the same way many nations "westernised" in the 1800s. It would involve soaking up a degree of sinosphere culture, however.

Well that last part's nothing new, might as well do it. I'll write that up sometime.
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Novacom
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Postby Novacom » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:22 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Novacom wrote:
I'm aware of what it says, I'm the one who helped sort it out (and did more than a bit of research the last few times this subject came up to know how accurate and viable this is)in full knowledge of the self serving fiasco it would then create, This puts Europe at something like 1860 down from 1880, it cancels line one of your guidance, not the other two lines, he's used his guidance to depower Europe a bit in a VERY realistic fashion.


Wouldn't that then also de-power asia?

also OP-board problem arrizes, If we start the precedent of using guidances to target regions as a negative force then where does that end?


I'm of the opinion it would given Oscal's song Guidance mentions Oriental and Europe were EQUAL.

I'd say it's balanced by the fact you get ONE Guidance (with mini ones being earnable depending on events...), so if you want to use it to be negative then you can, as it is, it's mainly been used to even the playing field and put the Islamic world (such that it is) and Europe on a more level playing field. The possibility for them to be used negatively was always a thing and I'd dare wager some of the existing Guidances have Negative side effects for players and regions as well.

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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:23 am

Tracian Empire wrote:
Novacom wrote:
Remember what Osc said, Guidances can Neutralize others, which is what this one did specifically the tech boost part of Helghans, the rest is still active, and it makes a lot of sense, there's numerous fields where Europe benefited from the scholars of Islam and vice versa, and then there's also the fall of Constantinople which didn't happen. Trace has taken away both of those events from everyone else, and Elerian has made it official that Europe is less advanced, Oriental is still more advanced, while Roman is now "modern" as in 1870, to argue it doesn't make any sense is to argue against a small yet important detail that's been lingering in the background for a long while.

It is true that people have been pointing out that due to never releasing their knowledge, and due to being the only European state to have contact with Islam, Rome should have maintained a technological edge over the others, for quite a while.


Hey Osc I put in my app that throughout the real life crusade era Germania sent small to medium Teutonic Knights to aid the Romans against muslims and heretics, they were largely used to try and grow relations between Germania and the Teutonic church with orthodox, catholic,and other denominations.

I just wanted to make sure this was acceptable.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:25 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Novacom wrote:
I'm aware of what it says, I'm the one who helped sort it out (and did more than a bit of research the last few times this subject came up to know how accurate and viable this is)in full knowledge of the self serving fiasco it would then create, This puts Europe at something like 1860 down from 1880, it cancels line one of your guidance, not the other two lines, he's used his guidance to depower Europe a bit in a VERY realistic fashion.


Wouldn't that then also de-power asia?

also OP-board problem arrizes, If we start the precedent of using guidances to target regions as a negative force then where does that end?

Tyrannia at least claimed that since the Oriental group targeted Europe in general, the Roman group could merely replace the Western tech group in their guidance and keep everything as it was.

As for that, I do believe that this isn't a precedent. It merely solves a historical paradox, that has been pointed multiple times. Without Islam and the Byzantines, Western Europe would have lacked behind technologically.

But I also personally don't know what to say, it makes me feel rather bad to be suddenly thrown into the position of the nation that dictates the definition of modern, all while pushing Hansa down.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:25 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Tracian Empire wrote:It is true that people have been pointing out that due to never releasing their knowledge, and due to being the only European state to have contact with Islam, Rome should have maintained a technological edge over the others, for quite a while.


Hey Osc I put in my app that throughout the real life crusade era Germania sent small to medium Teutonic Knights to aid the Romans against muslims and heretics, they were largely used to try and grow relations between Germania and the Teutonic church with orthodox, catholic,and other denominations.

I just wanted to make sure this was acceptable.

Osc?

But yeah, I wouldn't mind it, but we still need to discuss the Crusades in general. They don't exactly have many places to take place in if the Romans crush Islam under Heraclius.
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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:26 am

Novacom wrote:
Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Wouldn't that then also de-power asia?

also OP-board problem arrizes, If we start the precedent of using guidances to target regions as a negative force then where does that end?


I'm of the opinion it would given Oscal's song Guidance mentions Oriental and Europe were EQUAL.

I'd say it's balanced by the fact you get ONE Guidance (with mini ones being earnable depending on events...), so if you want to use it to be negative then you can, as it is, it's mainly been used to even the playing field and put the Islamic world (such that it is) and Europe on a more level playing field. The possibility for them to be used negatively was always a thing and I'd dare wager some of the existing Guidances have Negative side effects for players and regions as well.


We as an OP board need to come to a quick consensus. I was told by Trace everyone has two guidances unless they already used one. However I do prefer the idea of us all starting at one with this roleplay and the previous guidances remaining in effect as I believe is what I am gathering is your position.
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Postby Cymrea » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:27 am

Does this Roman Tech Group thing raise the AH Roman territories to an IC-contemporary level with industrialised Europe? Or is it attempting to establish RTG as superior to European industrialisation due to being a continuous entity?

I'm all for having the eastern and western Roman empires be at an equal level to the rest of Europe, rather than falling behind as they were in the RL time period, but to artificially devise a guidance by which they have superior tech - particularly following the actual IC RP effort made my myself and others to advance our tech - seems a bit unfair.

Tl;dr - Romans on equal footing with industrialised Europe good, artificially superior through paragraph-long guidance bad. :)
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Second Helghan Empire
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Postby Second Helghan Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:28 am

Tracian Empire wrote:
Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Hey Osc I put in my app that throughout the real life crusade era Germania sent small to medium Teutonic Knights to aid the Romans against muslims and heretics, they were largely used to try and grow relations between Germania and the Teutonic church with orthodox, catholic,and other denominations.

I just wanted to make sure this was acceptable.

Osc?

But yeah, I wouldn't mind it, but we still need to discuss the Crusades in general. They don't exactly have many places to take place in if the Romans crush Islam under Heraclius.


Sorry I meant trace.

As for my involvement, it only counted one major event were they helped to defeat an invading Muslim force before returning to Germania, my religious wars were mostly against european pagans.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:28 am

Second Helghan Empire wrote:
Novacom wrote:
I'm of the opinion it would given Oscal's song Guidance mentions Oriental and Europe were EQUAL.

I'd say it's balanced by the fact you get ONE Guidance (with mini ones being earnable depending on events...), so if you want to use it to be negative then you can, as it is, it's mainly been used to even the playing field and put the Islamic world (such that it is) and Europe on a more level playing field. The possibility for them to be used negatively was always a thing and I'd dare wager some of the existing Guidances have Negative side effects for players and regions as well.


We as an OP board need to come to a quick consensus. I was told by Trace everyone has two guidances unless they already used one. However I do prefer the idea of us all starting at one with this roleplay and the previous guidances remaining in effect as I believe is what I am gathering is your position.


That's what I remembered from the past threads at least. Everyone had two guidances, but some of the old players used one of their chances.

Not related, but with a Ruthenia that seems to be under the Ecumenical Patriarchate if I remember correctly, the Orthodox guidance would remain.
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Tracian Empire
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Postby Tracian Empire » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:29 am

Cymrea wrote:Does this Roman Tech Group thing raise the AH Roman territories to an IC-contemporary level with industrialised Europe? Or is it attempting to establish RTG as superior to European industrialisation due to being a continuous entity?

I'm all for having the eastern and western Roman empires be at an equal level to the rest of Europe, rather than falling behind as they were in the RL time period, but to artificially devise a guidance by which they have superior tech - particularly following the actual IC RP effort made my myself and others to advance our tech - seems a bit unfair.

Tl;dr - Romans on equal footing with industrialised Europe good, artificially superior through paragraph-long guidance bad. :)


I agree that it might be unfair, but it does make sense. It was a paradox from the very beginning. So while I do believe that the Roman tech should be above the European tech, I don't think that the difference should be too high due to the IC efforts of others, and I also don't think that the Western tech should be bashed too much.
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