Imperium Aeternum [AH/OOC/OPEN]

[The V O I D]

Trying to finish post; expect it late tonight, hopefully.

I'm going to try and at least post something tonight, even if I don't cover everything.

[The V O I D]

I tried.

[New Communist and Socialist Unions]

I tried.

I bets it's god level compared to my peasant quality....Even though I haven't posted yet.

[Kazarogkai]

An interesting fact to consider, the treatment for malaria is highly unlikely to exist in this world. Quinine, the plant from which it derives from, was found in a very obscure region within the incan lands(I believe bolivia) and was historically used by the locals to treat fevers. It was only discovered for its full potential long after the spanish conquest in 1820 in our world. As those lands are still largely untouched and unknown equals no one has quinine, yet, which until the second half of the 20th century was the only solid treatment for the disease especially the tropical varieties found in africa. This alone was probably the largest reason for the viability of african colonies(and hence why they happened so late) outside coastal highlands for outsiders. Previous to this the mortality rates were in the 90-100 range in some cases. Just something to keep in mind.

[Plzen]

An interesting fact to consider, the treatment for malaria is highly unlikely to exist in this world. Quinine, the plant from which it derives from, was found in a very obscure region within the incan lands(I believe bolivia) and was historically used by the locals to treat fevers. It was only discovered for its full potential long after the spanish conquest in 1820 in our world. As those lands are still largely untouched and unknown equals no one has quinine, yet, which until the second half of the 20th century was the only solid treatment for the disease especially the tropical varieties found in africa. This alone was probably the largest reason for the viability of african colonies(and hence why they happened so late) outside coastal highlands for outsiders. Previous to this the mortality rates were in the 90-100 range in some cases. Just something to keep in mind.

Then the colonial maintenance on all those Byzantine colonies are likely to be insane.

That and slaves. Definitely slaves. Nobody is going to want to send citizens on a place with untreated malaria.

[The V O I D]

An interesting fact to consider, the treatment for malaria is highly unlikely to exist in this world. Quinine, the plant from which it derives from, was found in a very obscure region within the incan lands(I believe bolivia) and was historically used by the locals to treat fevers. It was only discovered for its full potential long after the spanish conquest in 1820 in our world. As those lands are still largely untouched and unknown equals no one has quinine, yet, which until the second half of the 20th century was the only solid treatment for the disease especially the tropical varieties found in africa. This alone was probably the largest reason for the viability of african colonies(and hence why they happened so late) outside coastal highlands for outsiders. Previous to this the mortality rates were in the 90-100 range in some cases. Just something to keep in mind.

Then the colonial maintenance on all those Byzantine colonies are likely to be insane.

That and slaves. Definitely slaves. Nobody is going to want to send citizens on a place with untreated malaria.

Rome and most Western countries have likely found an alternative solution: if an area is infected, block it off and institute martial law. Don't let anyone in or out. A quarantine, essentially.

Then, when everyone's dead and the malaria's gone, burn the bodies and try to thoroughly sterilize everything (they likely have some knowledge that malaria's a virus, but don't know how its spread; solution? sterilize everything!).

[Plzen]

Rome and most Western countries have likely found an alternative solution: if an area is infected, block it off and institute martial law. Don't let anyone in or out. A quarantine, essentially.

Then, when everyone's dead and the malaria's gone, burn the bodies and try to thoroughly sterilize everything (they likely have some knowledge that malaria's a virus, but don't know how its spread; solution? sterilize everything!).

The cost of doing that is part of the reason why colonial maintenance is going to be ridiculous.

[The V O I D]

Rome and most Western countries have likely found an alternative solution: if an area is infected, block it off and institute martial law. Don't let anyone in or out. A quarantine, essentially.

Then, when everyone's dead and the malaria's gone, burn the bodies and try to thoroughly sterilize everything (they likely have some knowledge that malaria's a virus, but don't know how its spread; solution? sterilize everything!).

The cost of doing that is part of the reason why colonial maintenance is going to be ridiculous.

Yes, hence why rather than having Imperial Legions everywhere, they have Colonial Legions outside of the continental empire and donate Colonial Legions to colonies/nations loyal to Rome in the colonial areas; as usually, the Legions handle quarantines and such. It's part of 'military cost'... just in case.

[Plzen]

Yes, hence why rather than having Imperial Legions everywhere, they have Colonial Legions outside of the continental empire and donate Colonial Legions to colonies/nations loyal to Rome in the colonial areas; as usually, the Legions handle quarantines and such. It's part of 'military cost'... just in case.

"What is that gigantic pile of gold and treasure?"

"That, my son, is the Imperial Defence Budget."

"Then what are all those black bags being shipped from the Colonies?"

"Your future, good son."

[The V O I D]

Yes, hence why rather than having Imperial Legions everywhere, they have Colonial Legions outside of the continental empire and donate Colonial Legions to colonies/nations loyal to Rome in the colonial areas; as usually, the Legions handle quarantines and such. It's part of 'military cost'... just in case.

"What is that gigantic pile of gold and treasure?"

"That, my son, is the Imperial Defence Budget."

"Then what are all those black bags being shipped from the Colonies?"

"Your future, good son."

I'm laughing a little bit.

[Kazarogkai]

Then the colonial maintenance on all those Byzantine colonies are likely to be insane.

That and slaves. Definitely slaves. Nobody is going to want to send citizens on a place with untreated malaria.

Rome and most Western countries have likely found an alternative solution: if an area is infected, block it off and institute martial law. Don't let anyone in or out. A quarantine, essentially.

Then, when everyone's dead and the malaria's gone, burn the bodies and try to thoroughly sterilize everything (they likely have some knowledge that malaria's a virus, but don't know how its spread; solution? sterilize everything!).

You do realize malaria is spread by mosquitos and other blood sucking insects which are endemic to tropical regions....... you can't kill all of them without modern pesticides and even then it doesn't work that well.... so ya even if you kill all the people the mosquitos will still be there. Plus malaria isn't just a human disease from what I remember many other animals also carry it around. Before quinone the only protection quite honestly was genetics more or less and childhood immunity. I believe I heard sickle cell disease was developed as a sort of way to combat malaria, hence why it is so common in persons of african descent.

[Mangjukoia]

An interesting fact to consider, the treatment for malaria is highly unlikely to exist in this world. Quinine, the plant from which it derives from, was found in a very obscure region within the incan lands(I believe bolivia) and was historically used by the locals to treat fevers. It was only discovered for its full potential long after the spanish conquest in 1820 in our world. As those lands are still largely untouched and unknown equals no one has quinine, yet, which until the second half of the 20th century was the only solid treatment for the disease especially the tropical varieties found in africa. This alone was probably the largest reason for the viability of african colonies(and hence why they happened so late) outside coastal highlands for outsiders. Previous to this the mortality rates were in the 90-100 range in some cases. Just something to keep in mind.

mfw China has 43 different treatments and herbs for malaria since 200 B.C
How's the export value of medicinal herbs these days?

[Kazarogkai]

An interesting fact to consider, the treatment for malaria is highly unlikely to exist in this world. Quinine, the plant from which it derives from, was found in a very obscure region within the incan lands(I believe bolivia) and was historically used by the locals to treat fevers. It was only discovered for its full potential long after the spanish conquest in 1820 in our world. As those lands are still largely untouched and unknown equals no one has quinine, yet, which until the second half of the 20th century was the only solid treatment for the disease especially the tropical varieties found in africa. This alone was probably the largest reason for the viability of african colonies(and hence why they happened so late) outside coastal highlands for outsiders. Previous to this the mortality rates were in the 90-100 range in some cases. Just something to keep in mind.

mfw China has 43 different treatments and herbs for malaria since 200 B.C
How's the export value of medicinal herbs these days?

Within almost every place on earth which suffered from the disease there was some sort of witch doctor brew or another which was used to treat the disease, within africa yams(not sweet potatoes) were used to help treat various blood disorders for generations. Though yes Herbs are nice elephant ivory powder and dried tiger skin can't hold a thing thing against modern refined medicine which is what I was talking about.

Medicinal herbs were historically kinda a local tradition thing with the traditions of other areas sorta scorned by others. Nevertheless I'm pretty sure you should fetch a pretty penny more or less. It ain't gold but it's something. There is always a fascination for the exotic by various cultures.

[Mangjukoia]

mfw China has 43 different treatments and herbs for malaria since 200 B.C
How's the export value of medicinal herbs these days?

Within almost every place on earth which suffered from the disease there was some sort of witch doctor brew or another which was used to treat the disease, within africa yams(not sweet potatoes) were used to help treat various blood disorders for generations. Though yes Herbs are nice elephant ivory powder and dried tiger skin can't hold a thing thing against modern refined medicine which is what I was talking about.

Medicinal herbs were historically kinda a local tradition thing with the traditions of other areas sorta scorned by others. Nevertheless I'm pretty sure you should fetch a pretty penny more or less. It ain't gold but it's something. There is always a fascination for the exotic by various cultures.

Actually, if I'm being specific, Artensinin is the malaria medicine, derived from the herb is sweet wormwood, which, if what I read is correct, is to be replacing Quinine.

But, given that we are not in the modern age of medicines, would it still be profitable to export, if people may or may not have knowledge of it?

[Kazarogkai]

Actually, if I'm being specific, Artensinin is the malaria medicine, derived from the herb is sweet wormwood, which, if what I read is correct, is to be replacing Quinine.

But, given that we are not in the modern age of medicines, would it still be profitable to export, if people may or may not have knowledge of it?

Artensinin wasn't discovered/refined until 1970, contrast with Quinine Unlike which was fully refined in 1820, does indicate a few things. If they couldn't do it until modern times it's doubtful they could do it in this world by this point. As such said treatment is going to be stuck in an unrefined less than high quality form for a while which is fine against more mild forms of malaria but against the more nasty types like the ones I'm talking about... doubtful it would help terribly much. Based off my research on the medicine in question I found this:

"Artemisinin and its endoperoxides derivatives have been used for the treatment of P. falciparum(Malaria) related infections but low bioavailability, poor pharmacokinetic properties and high cost of the drugs are a major drawback of their use. Use of the drug by itself as a monotherapy is explicitly discouraged by the World Health Organization, as there have been signs that malarial parasites are developing resistance to the drug. Therapies that combine artemisinin or its derivatives with some other antimalarial drug are the preferred treatment for malaria and are both effective and well tolerated in patients. The drug is also increasingly being used in Plasmodium vivax malaria, as well as being a topic of research in cancer treatment."

A good portion of Quinones appeal and why it was used for so long was it's cheapness and wide availability, alongside its effectiveness. The drug in question you speak seems to be the opposite of that which is not really good, though better than nothing, though it does seem to suffer from the fact that it needs to be used in combination with other drugs to be effective which we may or may not be available as of now in this world. Probably fine if your going to take a short safari to the kalahari but it won't do for long term projects,

To you question: It would mostly be a novelty of sorts, a kind luxury that would interest the rich maybe but it would take a bit. Once they start dipping into places like the Congo I imagine demand would ratchet up. Though that's going to be a bit though. Remember malaria up until very recently was still an issue in parts of the developed world so that could help drive some demand.

Question, isn't wormwood poisonous?

[Mangjukoia]

Actually, if I'm being specific, Artensinin is the malaria medicine, derived from the herb is sweet wormwood, which, if what I read is correct, is to be replacing Quinine.

But, given that we are not in the modern age of medicines, would it still be profitable to export, if people may or may not have knowledge of it?

Artensinin wasn't discovered/refined until 1970, contrast with Quinine Unlike which was fully refined in 1820, does indicate a few things. If they couldn't do it until modern times it's doubtful they could do it in this world by this point. As such said treatment is going to be stuck in an unrefined less than high quality form for a while which is fine against more mild forms of malaria but against the more nasty types like the ones I'm talking about... doubtful it would help terribly much. Based off my research on the medicine in question I found this:

"Artemisinin and its endoperoxides derivatives have been used for the treatment of P. falciparum(Malaria) related infections but low bioavailability, poor pharmacokinetic properties and high cost of the drugs are a major drawback of their use. Use of the drug by itself as a monotherapy is explicitly discouraged by the World Health Organization, as there have been signs that malarial parasites are developing resistance to the drug. Therapies that combine artemisinin or its derivatives with some other antimalarial drug are the preferred treatment for malaria and are both effective and well tolerated in patients. The drug is also increasingly being used in Plasmodium vivax malaria, as well as being a topic of research in cancer treatment."

A good portion of Quinones appeal and why it was used for so long was it's cheapness and wide availability, alongside its effectiveness. The drug in question you speak seems to be the opposite of that which is not really good, though better than nothing, though it does seem to suffer from the fact that it needs to be used in combination with other drugs to be effective which we may or may not be available as of now in this world. Probably fine if your going to take a short safari to the kalahari but it won't do for long term projects,

To you question: It would mostly be a novelty of sorts, a kind luxury that would interest the rich maybe but it would take a bit. Once they start dipping into places like the Congo I imagine demand would ratchet up. Though that's going to be a bit though. Remember malaria up until very recently was still an issue in parts of the developed world so that could help drive some demand.

Question, isn't wormwood poisonous?

The research from 1970 for Artemisisin came from traditional Chinese medicines on the need of North Vietnamese troops, so it could be that later dynasties, like the Ming or Qing, never had the need to develop them. I did however, just created a situation for it, with my invasion of Annam.

As for the question of toxicity, I don't think so, as it can be ingested in the form of tea, but I could be wrong about it.

[Kazarogkai]

The research from 1970 for Artemisisin came from traditional Chinese medicines on the need of North Vietnamese troops, so it could be that later dynasties, like the Ming or Qing, never had the need to develop them. I did however, just created a situation for it, with my invasion of Annam.

As for the question of toxicity, I don't think so, as it can be ingested in the form of tea, but I could be wrong about it.

Maybe, though the chinese didn't really have the chemistry knowledge to refine it in such a way. Heck even the romans would be lacking in that regard so don't take that as an insult. Her research was aided by folk medicine but ultimately required modern methods of refining/extraction to make it viable. Plus was there a large scale medical research apparatus in the time period we are sorta set in? That would be necessary in order to make this viable. I Know many universities existed at the time though there focus was more on theology and humanities rather than more practical matter like what we speak of and the ones that do exist in this world are confined to europe and maybe arabia, I can't really think of any major medical universities existing in the far east which would have the desire and resources to carry out such organized research methods necessary to make this viable. This only compounds the cost issue. Quinone was so effective and useful for a reason. Dirt cheapness being one of them. Just a comparison With modern pricing:

Artemisisin $120-$1200 per kilogram
vs
Quinone US$1.70 to $3.40 per course of treatment.

I looked it doesn't appear to be toxic so nevermind. You mention tea, I found something about that:

"Artemisinin is not soluble in water, therefore Artemisia annua tea is postulated not to contain pharmacologically significant amounts of artemesinin.Artemisia tea is therefore not recommended as a substitute for the ACTs."

Pros: Helps to a degree keep outsiders out
Cons: major cause of death and productivity loss in my nation.

I'm mulling over which is better and which is worse for me, double edge sword indeed...

[Mangjukoia]

The research from 1970 for Artemisisin came from traditional Chinese medicines on the need of North Vietnamese troops, so it could be that later dynasties, like the Ming or Qing, never had the need to develop them. I did however, just created a situation for it, with my invasion of Annam.

As for the question of toxicity, I don't think so, as it can be ingested in the form of tea, but I could be wrong about it.

Maybe, though the chinese didn't really have the chemistry knowledge to refine it in such a way. Heck even the romans would be lacking in that regard so don't take that as an insult. Her research was aided by folk medicine but ultimately required modern methods of refining/extraction to make it viable. Plus was there a large scale medical research apparatus in the time period we are sorta set in? That would be necessary in order to make this viable. I Know many universities existed at the time though there focus was more on theology and humanities rather than more practical matter like what we speak of and the ones that do exist in this world are confined to europe and maybe arabia, I can't really think of any major medical universities existing in the far east which would have the desire and resources to carry out such organized research methods necessary to make this viable. This only compounds the cost issue. Quinone was so effective and useful for a reason. Dirt cheapness being one of them. Just a comparison With modern pricing:

Artemisisin $120-$1200 per kilogram
vs
Quinone US$1.70 to $3.40 per course of treatment.

I looked it doesn't appear to be toxic so nevermind. You mention tea, I found something about that:

"Artemisinin is not soluble in water, therefore Artemisia annua tea is postulated not to contain pharmacologically significant amounts of artemesinin.Artemisia tea is therefore not recommended as a substitute for the ACTs."

Pros: Helps to a degree keep outsiders out
Cons: major cause of death and productivity loss in my nation.

I'm mulling over which is better and which is worse for me, double edge sword indeed...

The natural occurance. One of the great providers, and a sword yet to be pointed at us.

Onto another thing that I could possibly monopolize. Chinese yams/potatoes. Would they be viable for export as a potato/yam alternative?

Its said to be more tolerant of frost than other yams and exist in regions with climates similar to Vietnam, introduced to Europe during their potato famine, can be eaten straight out of the ground, probably worth the size of three or four potatoes.

[Kazarogkai]

The natural occurance. One of the great providers, and a sword yet to be pointed at us.

Onto another thing that I could possibly monopolize. Chinese yams/potatoes. Would they be viable for export as a potato/yam alternative?

Its said to be more tolerant of frost than other yams and exist in regions with climates similar to Vietnam, introduced to Europe during their potato famine, can be eaten straight out of the ground, probably worth the size of three or four potatoes.

Maybe, though potatoes already exist and true yams(not sweet potatoes) don't seem to have been super popular outside their home regions(africa, east asia). But heck things may change. Give it a try they might bite. Culture and peoples taste in food is not a set thing they can change given different parameters.

I always found yams to be strange. One developed in west africa, the other somewhere in mongolia/northern china yet they are independent and not derived from one another. So wierd. Same thing applies to rice with it's roughly 3 independent strains(mississippi, chinese, and african) of which 2 were domesticated. Life is weird.

[Mangjukoia]

The natural occurance. One of the great providers, and a sword yet to be pointed at us.

Onto another thing that I could possibly monopolize. Chinese yams/potatoes. Would they be viable for export as a potato/yam alternative?

Its said to be more tolerant of frost than other yams and exist in regions with climates similar to Vietnam, introduced to Europe during their potato famine, can be eaten straight out of the ground, probably worth the size of three or four potatoes.

Maybe, though potatoes already exist and true yams(not sweet potatoes) don't seem to have been super popular outside their home regions(africa, east asia). But heck things may change. Give it a try they might bite. Culture and peoples taste in food is not a set thing they can change given different parameters.

I always found yams to be strange. One developed in west africa, the other somewhere in mongolia/northern china yet they are independent and not derived from one another. So wierd. Same thing applies to rice with it's roughly 3 independent strains(mississippi, chinese, and african) of which 2 were domesticated. Life is weird.

I imagine this becoming a documentary or something of the sort.

"NatGeo presents: The Secret Travels of Rice & Yams"

[Plzen]

It's terribly unfortunate that the Great Tang's capital is five hundred kilometres from the coastline.

I can't just shell it into submission with my superior naval strength, and a land invasion of China is pointless and stupid.

[Prusslandia]

It's terribly unfortunate that the Great Tang's capital is five hundred kilometres from the coastline.

I can't just shell it into submission with my superior naval strength, and a land invasion of China is pointless and stupid.

The Khan can assist in that matter.

[Plzen]

The Khan can assist in that matter.

It'll take a long time before the Mongols can seriously challenge the army of a country three times their population and three times their economic output, even if Scandinavia backs their modernisation effort and nobody backs the Chinese one.

More likely than not, Japan will back the Chinese modernisation effort and the two of you'll get stuck in a red queen's race.

[Prusslandia]

The Khan can assist in that matter.

It'll take a long time before the Mongols can seriously challenge the army of a country three times their population and three times their economic output, even if Scandinavia backs their modernisation effort and nobody backs the Chinese one.

More likely than not, Japan will back the Chinese modernisation effort and the two of you'll get stuck in a red queen's race.

The Tang are smaller than the Mongols iirc, and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for them to have a larger population than Mongolia anyhow.

[Plzen]

The Tang are smaller than the Mongols iirc, and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for them to have a larger population than Mongolia anyhow.

Well, the Tang controls most of the fertile southeastern provinces of China. That's probably why.