Imperium Aeternum [AH/OOC/OPEN]

[Kerbodine]

Was going to include this in the following post, but decided to make it separate (cleaner that way):
GERMAN NAVAL INFORMATION

Germany Navy: 36 battleships, 7 battlecruisers, 35 heavy & light cruisers, 95 torpedo boats, minelayers, and destroyers, 1 submarine, and various transports and support vessels
About 1/2 of Germany's ships are older classes, i.e. 2/3rds of the battleships are pre-dreadnoughts and half the cruisers are slightly obsolete. Personnel: 70,000 on warships [give or take 1k per capital ship, 500 average per cruiser, and 150 average per screen] plus ~20,000 maintenance personnel for a total of 90,000 serving naval members.

Germany invests heavily in the navy as a preventative to Scandinavian power and to project power abroad need be, and also to protect trade routes and as a matter of prestige.

We only have 1 submarine for now [and I'd appreciate if other nations didn't have any substantial submarines, as with ~1900 tech they're just plausible as legit warships again]; regardless, we'll be investing heavily in submarines and probably submarine tenders to use them globally if need be.

I've based this all loosely based on the WWI German navy, with somewhat earlier tech of course; the ships would be almost entirely either Saxon or Prussian, but the navy is the one branch of the military that's properly federalized, with a Central Naval Command jointly commanding everything. Primary ports are Kiel, Trevasburg/Brunssbuttel, Heligoland (fortified advance scouting port in North Sea), Bremen/Bremenhaven, Utrechtburg, and Coenigsburg, with the fleet usually based actually in Bremenhaven (map: http://i.imgur.com/KD6hKst.png Brunssbuttel is by Trevasburg but closer to the sea, and Bremen is a bit to the West of there)

I'll probably do a more coherent post with EVEN MORE DETAIL later (i.e. typical ship classes, manufacturers, and precise stats cuz I'm a nerd), but this is enough for now.

[Kerbodine]

Military pop. of 4.5 million, holy guacamole; yeah, at least in terms of land military, you're probs top 3.

Yup. Navy is probably 4 or 5; I'd place the Khan at roughly the same place as the Tang, or one of the smaller European powers.

We should talk about our navies more, and figure out exactly what everyone's is like. For the top few, it probably goes (and I'm just working off what I know here, based on apps and OOC posts- I don't recall any big IC posts with naval info dumps):
1 Byzantium: 'over 870 vessels' (presumably many of which are smaller, support, or coastal ships, but undoubtedly still with an impressive main and colonial naval battlefleet; perhaps 60 battleships, 20 battlecruisers, 80 cruisers, 200 screen ships (destroyers and torpedo boats), and a large number of colonial coastal defense ships, naval transport ships, unarmored cruisers, etc.)

2 Rome: unsure, but presumably somewhere in-between Byzantium and Germany; may rely somewhat on Byzantine navy (close allies), in which case power may be similar in size to German

3 Japan: 100,000 serving naval personnel (though it's impossible to determine what sort of navy it has exactly, probably very similar in power to Germany- either marginally above or below in practical power)

4 Germany: 36 battleships, 7 battlecruisers, 35 heavy & light cruisers, 95 torpedo boats, minelayers, and destroyers, 1 submarine, and various transports and support vessels (total of ~90,000 serving personnel)

5? Scandinavia: 62 armored ships- likely breakup of ~10 battleships, ~15 varied cruisers, and ~35 light ships

I'd guess next few on the list (presuming they don't surpass Scandinavia, which is unlikely because Scandinavia's fleet is compact, modern, and fairly large) are:
Mongolia (a fleet larger than most others, but almost entirely obsolete)

The Tang (similar situation to Mongolia)

Hatteria (states in app they have 55 armored ships, which is either just above or just below Mongolia and the Tang in power- not sure)

Terra Austrum (stated they have a nice navy for their size [at the cost of a major army], probably like a half-sized Scandinavian navy)

Errr everyone else probably has relatively small navies. New Rome probably relies on the Roman navy (obviously), and Poland-Ruthenia's app doesn't say anything about a navy (though it's quite likely they have an underdeveloped navy, perhaps a few cruisers and a dozen light ships). Celtia is probably limited to a technologically behind civilian fleet. It seems the African nations would be unable to field any kind of significant fleet, even for short-range transport, and the Aztecs could at most hypothetically build up a junky sailing-tech fleet given time and reason (Sunset Invasion let's gooo). It's unlikely any Russian or Indian nation would have a big or modern fleet, so yeah.

I've shared more about Germany's fleet, what are other people's navies like exactly? I love details.

[The Frozen Forest]

Religion Map

Key:
Yellow: Chalcedonian Christianity
Purple: Reformed Slavicism
Blue: Tengri
Darker Blue: Aztec Faith
Pink: Confucianism (Chinese)
Darker Pink: Confucianism (Korean)
Light Orange: Buddhism
Darker Orange: Inca Faith
Lightest Green: Hinduism
Darkest Green (Iran): Zoroastrianism
Dark Green (Africa): Akanism
Brown: Traditional African Faith/Kijivo Siri
Blue (Hawaii): Traditional Hawaiian Faith
Grey (Arabia): Traditional Arabic Faith
Blue (Philippines): Traditional Philippians Faith
Dark Brown (America's): Native American Folk Religion

So i finished the map, i took a little liberty with it and smoothed out some religions so it was more realistic than just copying the Influence map. For example Christianity has pushed back Slavic faith in Russian influenced Finland, Zoroastrianism is the weakest major faith on earth, having to contend with Christianity from the west and the Tengri faith to the east. In two of the Byzantine colonies, i assumed the native population outnumbered the colonial population, so the majority faith was Buddhism.

Any objections?

[Prusslandia]

I'd say that there could be a small-medium sized Jewish population in Mongolia's eastern holdings, as the Khan would most likely be more accepting than Rome or Byzantium; medieval and, in all honesty, pre-modern Europe is rather antisemitic, primarily due to the Church. Rome didn't like Jews in general anyhow.

Also, Christianity in gneral wouldn't have much of a hold in Mongolia- the Khan's holdings in the Middle East, except for a few directly next to the Byzantine's, were conquered pre contact with the Europeans. As such, Zoroastrianism and the like would have a better hold there than Christ.

Last edit, I promise- There should be a different sect of Mongolian Confucianism, as there would no doubt be Mongolian mixings into the belief system.

[Mangjukoia]

Yup. Navy is probably 4 or 5; I'd place the Khan at roughly the same place as the Tang, or one of the smaller European powers.

We should talk about our navies more, and figure out exactly what everyone's is like. For the top few, it probably goes (and I'm just working off what I know here, based on apps and OOC posts- I don't recall any big IC posts with naval info dumps):
1 Byzantium: 'over 870 vessels' (presumably many of which are smaller, support, or coastal ships, but undoubtedly still with an impressive main and colonial naval battlefleet; perhaps 60 battleships, 20 battlecruisers, 80 cruisers, 200 screen ships (destroyers and torpedo boats), and a large number of colonial coastal defense ships, naval transport ships, unarmored cruisers, etc.)

2 Rome: unsure, but presumably somewhere in-between Byzantium and Germany; may rely somewhat on Byzantine navy (close allies), in which case power may be similar in size to German

3 Japan: 100,000 serving naval personnel (though it's impossible to determine what sort of navy it has exactly, probably very similar in power to Germany- either marginally above or below in practical power)

4 Germany: 36 battleships, 7 battlecruisers, 35 heavy & light cruisers, 95 torpedo boats, minelayers, and destroyers, 1 submarine, and various transports and support vessels (total of ~90,000 serving personnel)

5? Scandinavia: 62 armored ships- likely breakup of ~10 battleships, ~15 varied cruisers, and ~35 light ships

I'd guess next few on the list (presuming they don't surpass Scandinavia, which is unlikely because Scandinavia's fleet is compact, modern, and fairly large) are:
Mongolia (a fleet larger than most others, but almost entirely obsolete)

The Tang (similar situation to Mongolia)

Hatteria (states in app they have 55 armored ships, which is either just above or just below Mongolia and the Tang in power- not sure)

Terra Austrum (stated they have a nice navy for their size [at the cost of a major army], probably like a half-sized Scandinavian navy)

Errr everyone else probably has relatively small navies. New Rome probably relies on the Roman navy (obviously), and Poland-Ruthenia's app doesn't say anything about a navy (though it's quite likely they have an underdeveloped navy, perhaps a few cruisers and a dozen light ships). Celtia is probably limited to a technologically behind civilian fleet. It seems the African nations would be unable to field any kind of significant fleet, even for short-range transport, and the Aztecs could at most hypothetically build up a junky sailing-tech fleet given time and reason (Sunset Invasion let's gooo). It's unlikely any Russian or Indian nation would have a big or modern fleet, so yeah.

I've shared more about Germany's fleet, what are other people's navies like exactly? I love details.

I wouldn't think that the fleets of the Great Tang are obsolete, if I have the Beiyang fleet that is. Would I have the Beiyang fleet here though, considering they were mostly foreign-built irl?

[Kerbodine]

[quote="The Frozen Forest";p="30774937"Any objections?[/quote]
I don't think the Roman North American colonies' influence goes so far inland yet. A nice map, though!

[Prusslandia]

We should talk about our navies more, and figure out exactly what everyone's is like. For the top few, it probably goes (and I'm just working off what I know here, based on apps and OOC posts- I don't recall any big IC posts with naval info dumps):
1 Byzantium: 'over 870 vessels' (presumably many of which are smaller, support, or coastal ships, but undoubtedly still with an impressive main and colonial naval battlefleet; perhaps 60 battleships, 20 battlecruisers, 80 cruisers, 200 screen ships (destroyers and torpedo boats), and a large number of colonial coastal defense ships, naval transport ships, unarmored cruisers, etc.)

2 Rome: unsure, but presumably somewhere in-between Byzantium and Germany; may rely somewhat on Byzantine navy (close allies), in which case power may be similar in size to German

3 Japan: 100,000 serving naval personnel (though it's impossible to determine what sort of navy it has exactly, probably very similar in power to Germany- either marginally above or below in practical power)

4 Germany: 36 battleships, 7 battlecruisers, 35 heavy & light cruisers, 95 torpedo boats, minelayers, and destroyers, 1 submarine, and various transports and support vessels (total of ~90,000 serving personnel)

5? Scandinavia: 62 armored ships- likely breakup of ~10 battleships, ~15 varied cruisers, and ~35 light ships

I'd guess next few on the list (presuming they don't surpass Scandinavia, which is unlikely because Scandinavia's fleet is compact, modern, and fairly large) are:
Mongolia (a fleet larger than most others, but almost entirely obsolete)

The Tang (similar situation to Mongolia)

Hatteria (states in app they have 55 armored ships, which is either just above or just below Mongolia and the Tang in power- not sure)

Terra Austrum (stated they have a nice navy for their size [at the cost of a major army], probably like a half-sized Scandinavian navy)

Errr everyone else probably has relatively small navies. New Rome probably relies on the Roman navy (obviously), and Poland-Ruthenia's app doesn't say anything about a navy (though it's quite likely they have an underdeveloped navy, perhaps a few cruisers and a dozen light ships). Celtia is probably limited to a technologically behind civilian fleet. It seems the African nations would be unable to field any kind of significant fleet, even for short-range transport, and the Aztecs could at most hypothetically build up a junky sailing-tech fleet given time and reason (Sunset Invasion let's gooo). It's unlikely any Russian or Indian nation would have a big or modern fleet, so yeah.

I've shared more about Germany's fleet, what are other people's navies like exactly? I love details.

I wouldn't think that the fleets of the Great Tang are obsolete, if I have the Beiyang fleet that is. Would I have the Beiyang fleet here though, considering they were mostly foreign-built irl?

Probably not, seeing as how Rome (Especially Byzantium) sees Asia as a bunch of uppity savages. We're probably at a 17th century level, with some bits at an early-mid 18th century advancement.

[Nancivania]

Religion Map

So i finished the map, i took a little liberty with it and smoothed out some religions so it was more realistic than just copying the Influence map. For example Christianity has pushed back Slavic faith in Russian influenced Finland, Zoroastrianism is the weakest major faith on earth, having to contend with Christianity from the west and the Tengri faith to the east. In two of the Byzantine colonies, i assumed the native population outnumbered the colonial population, so the majority faith was Buddhism.

Any objections?

Doesn't Japan control Vancouver Island?

[Kerbodine]

I wouldn't think that the fleets of the Great Tang are obsolete, if I have the Beiyang fleet that is. Would I have the Beiyang fleet here though, considering they were mostly foreign-built irl?

Oh, our companies would totally sell you modern warships (and our government would sell last-gen), though letting go of such powerful warships doesn't come cheap. You'd made no mention of it in your app or anything, but something similar to that would make your navy not entirely obsolete (though not as nice overall as other top navies). This is why I like details
A valid point from Pruss, though; if you do have any modern ships, it's probably only a few second hand or last gen ships. Probably still fall in about the same place on my list, and that's still generously assuming small modern navies couldn't automatically defeat large outdated navies.

[Mangjukoia]

What of my home-built ships modeled after foreign vessels? Would they still be valid?

Also, Tang would be interested in contracting German ship builders.

[Khasinkonia]

I'd say that there could be a small-medium sized Jewish population in Mongolia's eastern holdings, as the Khan would most likely be more accepting than Rome or Byzantium; medieval and, in all honesty, pre-modern Europe is rather antisemitic, primarily due to the Church. Rome didn't like Jews in general anyhow.

Also, Christianity in gneral wouldn't have much of a hold in Mongolia- the Khan's holdings in the Middle East, except for a few directly next to the Byzantine's, were conquered pre contact with the Europeans. As such, Zoroastrianism and the like would have a better hold there than Christ.

Last edit, I promise- There should be a different sect of Mongolian Confucianism, as there would no doubt be Mongolian mixings into the belief system.

Also, Hokkaido and Sakhalin are Ainu Folk Religion, not Shinto, as the majority populations are Ainu in ethnicity and culture.

[Khasinkonia]

At least Mongolia is top 3 militarily, battling for 2# with Byzantium.

After all, a heavily regimented military can only do so much against a highly mobile, numerically superior force.

Also, food for thought- If Mongolia loses the upcoming war, it will turn into a mixture of Vietnam and Iraq for any invaders/occupiers.

Upcoming war? Hopefully Mongolia does not invade Japan, I kinda rely on them for my economy...

Mongolia, again, has a poor track record with naval invasions, as well as a less powerful navy than Japan's. Any naval attack would be crushed, likely in the harbours.

[Prusslandia]

Upcoming war? Hopefully Mongolia does not invade Japan, I kinda rely on them for my economy...

Mongolia, again, has a poor track record with naval invasions, as well as a less powerful navy than Japan's. Any naval attack would be crushed, likely in the harbours.

Tbh^^

The only way I'd win that is if I had someone to distract their navy long enough so that I could get troops on the home islands- if that happened, I'd likely win.

[Kerbodine]

What of my home-built ships modeled after foreign vessels? Would they still be valid?

Eh, I doubt Tang has the industrial capacity to create skyscraper-sized chunks of high-tech floating steel... Perhaps unarmored light cruisers, or coastal patrol monitors...

Also, Tang would be interested in contracting German ship builders.

Figuring out the politics there would be interesting; if you want to put forward an IC proposal, you could send a formal request which I'd then figure out a solution to. I'm not sure whether or not I'd have the German government allow companies to build battleships for non-allied foreign powers, but they'd probably find a middle ground (such as selling last generation [so not entirely obsolete] battleships at a relatively reasonable price).
I'm realizing it seems unlikely that Germany would allow serious weapons sold to unknown foreign entities given the current political climate, though perhaps Germany would be willing to consider the Tang a friendly power if they helped back German interests in the region. *Cough give us Tsingtao? cough*

[Khasinkonia]

Mongolia, again, has a poor track record with naval invasions, as well as a less powerful navy than Japan's. Any naval attack would be crushed, likely in the harbours.

Tbh^^

The only way I'd win that is if I had someone to distract their navy long enough so that I could get troops on the home islands- if that happened, I'd likely win.

Thus, victory would likely be in my hands. That's why both parties are doing the logical thing and avoiding war.

[Plzen]

What of my home-built ships modeled after foreign vessels? Would they still be valid?

Also, Tang would be interested in contracting German ship builders.

The Great Tang simply does not possess the industrial basis to produce remotely modern ships. The most advanced ships in their fleet are probably a few obsolete ships bought from more civilized nations.

Scandinavia fields a very nice fleet, compared to its size. We have a fairly bloated military budget as well, and our army, although well-equipped, is tiny.

[Plzen]

I could do a Victoria 2 style ranking of every country here as soon as I get home and have my actual computer back. Call it another 10 hours. But with 6 great powers instead of 8, because we have less countries in general.

For military, I can use everyone's number of capital ships and soldiers, with a steep penalty applied to uncivilized nations.
For industry, the GDP figures I calculated earlier, with a penalty based on population.

Prestige is harder. Any ideas?

---

Should we collectively make some apps for NPCs like Java and Aceh? Because they're starting to be fairly important.

---

VOID, as the OP, you need to respond to letters made to NPC nations (or ask a co-OP to do it). I believe the Tang made three such letters.

[Kazarogkai]

Well you asked.

The overall Military structure of the Kobiwa is divided into 3 commands:

The Land Command 50 Regiments of 250,000 Sakari
The Sea Command 10 Regiments of 50,000 Sakari = 50 Warships and 150 Other Ships
The Home Command 14,300 Sakari

and finally but not least the War Department which serves as the primary staff of sorts for the entire armed forces and numbers 4,000 strong.

Though historically a vaunted force capable of projecting power over across the indian ocean in such a way that one could easily have termed it the Kobiwa Pond it is now mostly a shell of its former self. Filled with aging relics it like much of the Kobiwa's forces is quite dated in equipment and tactics. Though of the two by far the Sea Command has been the most degraded being seen as the less important of the bunch. The higher leadership has come up with the mentality that they cannot compete in everything so they gotta focus on one thing as such they chose the Land forces which was considered the more useful. Still despite that one must not underestimate them lest they get a bloody nose from the old heavy boxer. Even if you can get through them you still gotta deal with their extensive coastal fortification system built up over the coast over generations.

Ship type List:
- 02 Steam Frigate
- 03 Ship of the Line
- 10 Frigate
- 10 Sloop
- 25 Gunboat
- 150 Other ships(mostly transport/logistics)

[Plzen]

Religion Map

Any objections?

Some heavily-reformed variants of the Norse faith continue to survive and is the second or third largest religion in the Scandinavian Realm. It's barely 1% of the population, though, and spread out too thinly to matter.

Sami shamanism is still quite a big thing, and is the competitor to reformed Norse in the Scandinavian Realm. Perhaps 1% of the Realm's population follows it. Unlike Norse, though, these people are quite concentrated in the Sami/Finnish dominated arctic and form a majority in quite a few towns.

The Slavonic faiths constitute a tiny minority in Scandinavia and is pretty much limited to the Russian-speaking minority.

[Mangjukoia]

What of my home-built ships modeled after foreign vessels? Would they still be valid?

Eh, I doubt Tang has the industrial capacity to create skyscraper-sized chunks of high-tech floating steel... Perhaps unarmored light cruisers, or coastal patrol monitors...

Also, Tang would be interested in contracting German ship builders.

Figuring out the politics there would be interesting; if you want to put forward an IC proposal, you could send a formal request which I'd then figure out a solution to. I'm not sure whether or not I'd have the German government allow companies to build battleships for non-allied foreign powers, but they'd probably find a middle ground (such as selling last generation [so not entirely obsolete] battleships at a relatively reasonable price).
I'm realizing it seems unlikely that Germany would allow serious weapons sold to unknown foreign entities given the current political climate, though perhaps Germany would be willing to consider the Tang a friendly power if they helped back German interests in the region. *Cough give us Tsingtao? cough*

Sino-German Cooperation would be great.
Germany has some, uh, beef with Scandinavia right? They're friends with and receiving coal from Mongolia. Tang isn't too friendly with Mongolia. Y'know.

Mfw realization hits that the Grand Navy isn't that grand compared to the others and Scandinavia tryna size me up.

[Kerbodine]

I could do a Victoria 2 style ranking of every country here as soon as I get home and have my actual computer back. Call it another 10 hours. But with 6 great powers instead of 8, because we have less countries in general.

For military, I can use everyone's number of capital ships and soldiers, with a steep penalty applied to uncivilized nations.
For industry, the GDP figures I calculated earlier, with a penalty based on population.

Prestige is harder. Any ideas?

Well, we've already got reasonable numbers for military and rough industry (and approximate numbers, though applying a relevant 'score' may be difficult). I would be willing to do something like this if you don't, or might independently to compare numbers


In Vicky II, prestige is largely tech based (bonus techs for prestige, things unlocked by tech like colonies, plus tech-based events like discovering the source of the Nile). That's somewhat separate from industry, so you could go with that combined with an arbitrary 'cultural' thing that rewards particularly unified or old countries. In addition, sprinkling extra points to nations with high national unity/pride would make sense, though determining that may be difficult.
A list of things I would take into account:
-Tech level
-National unity
-Age of nation
-Sphere of nation
-Colonies
-History in warfare
-International reputation
-Amount of trade
-Recent major inventions
-Standard of living
-...Etc?

Basically, the more a nation interacts with the world, the higher prestige it should have. In Vicky II, even a moderately sized nation could have a reasonable amount of prestige, but couldn't seriously compete with military or industry; as such, while population/size should be a factor, that ought to be minor.
This may mean that a nation like Scandinavia may have a higher prestige score than a country like Mongolia.

[Plzen]

Sino-German Cooperation would be great.
Germany has some, uh, beef with Scandinavia right? They're friends with and receiving coal from Mongolia. Tang isn't too friendly with Mongolia. Y'know.

Mfw realization hits that the Grand Navy isn't that grand compared to the others and Scandinavia tryna size me up.

In Victoria 2, it's not hard to completely dismantle the entire armed forces of the Chinese Empire and all of its substates (which can and usually does number in the millions) using 60 brigades (180,000 soldiers), a couple Commerce Raiders (1850s light ships), and 1860s army tech. That's sort of my baseline.

I can't see how the tech gap in this RP is any smaller. It's probably roughly the same, since the Great Tang in this RP has things like muzzle-loaded rifles (domestically made) and a (modernised) military staff system, which Victoria 2 China doesn't have, but we have things like machine guns and indirect artillery fire.

Unfortunately, 60 brigades are hard to find when your country only has 12 million people... hence my unwillingness to actually fight the Great Tang.

[Mangjukoia]

Sino-German Cooperation would be great.
Germany has some, uh, beef with Scandinavia right? They're friends with and receiving coal from Mongolia. Tang isn't too friendly with Mongolia. Y'know.

Mfw realization hits that the Grand Navy isn't that grand compared to the others and Scandinavia tryna size me up.

In Victoria 2, it's not hard to completely dismantle the entire armed forces of the Chinese Empire and all of its substates (which can and usually does number in the millions) using 60 brigades (180,000 soldiers), a couple Commerce Raiders (1850s light ships), and 1860s army tech. That's sort of my baseline.

I can't see how the tech gap in this RP is any smaller. It's probably roughly the same, since the Great Tang in this RP has things like muzzle-loaded rifles (domestically made) and a (modernised) military staff system, which Victoria 2 China doesn't have, but we have things like machine guns and indirect artillery fire.

Unfortunately, 60 brigades are hard to find when your country only has 12 million people... hence my unwillingness to actually fight the Great Tang.

Welp, off to more self-strengthening I go.

Just got reminded about this. How's the salt trade going along here?

[Prusslandia]

In Victoria 2, it's not hard to completely dismantle the entire armed forces of the Chinese Empire and all of its substates (which can and usually does number in the millions) using 60 brigades (180,000 soldiers), a couple Commerce Raiders (1850s light ships), and 1860s army tech. That's sort of my baseline.

I can't see how the tech gap in this RP is any smaller. It's probably roughly the same, since the Great Tang in this RP has things like muzzle-loaded rifles (domestically made) and a (modernised) military staff system, which Victoria 2 China doesn't have, but we have things like machine guns and indirect artillery fire.

Unfortunately, 60 brigades are hard to find when your country only has 12 million people... hence my unwillingness to actually fight the Great Tang.

Welp, off to more self-strengthening I go.

Just got reminded about this. How's the salt trade going along here?

Heavily controlled by Byzantium, i assume, with their African colonies.

[Plzen]

Welp, off to more self-strengthening I go.

Just got reminded about this. How's the salt trade going along here?

Well, remember that development, once started, takes on a momentum of its own and becomes increasingly hard to control...

As for salt, Scandinavia imports most of its supplies. Scandinavian climate is unfriendly to sea salt.