A War of Mud and Steel[AH-OOC-OPEN]

[Trotza]

You would massacre native Russian tribal people simply trying to live their lives? Perish the thought! Or just stick to your affairs, that'll work too...

Aristocrats = Tribal People...Hillarious

Actually Itelmens, Aleuts, Koryaks, Chukchi, Chugach, Tlingit, and Ainu equal tribal people, but I understand the confusion.

*frantically begins dressing fugitive aristocrats in traditional Native American dress*

[Tracian Empire]

Well, at least from what I understood, super China is still far from Western standards.

I think we need to clarify this. In terms of civil society and advanced science, yes. But we're there in terms of education, production, and agriculture, and overall military strength. My military is decent, I don't see why it wouldn't be up to Western standards - I've had 24 years. That's more than the Meiji had. My production is not as efficient or as high quality as the West but I have massive scales.

Because you can't exactly fix an entire country and bring it up to the exact standards of Germany and Austria, ad an example. And specifically because of the scale. We need to keep things balanced, you can't have China's huge army on exactly modern standards.

Your army would be decent, but you would still be working towards Westernizing it.

[Tracian Empire]

I think we need to clarify this. In terms of civil society and advanced science, yes. But we're there in terms of education, production, and agriculture. My military is decent, I don't see why it wouldn't be up to Western standards - I've had 24 years. That's more than the Meiji had. My production is not as efficient or as high quality as the West but I have massive scales.

As I said; f@ckton of different ethnicities and languages (worse than AH) and Islands splitting up the Armed Forces doesn't make me OP.

I can understand your frustration, bit let's keep things civil.

[Dires]

I think we need to clarify this. In terms of civil society and advanced science, yes. But we're there in terms of education, production, and agriculture, and overall military strength. My military is decent, I don't see why it wouldn't be up to Western standards - I've had 24 years. That's more than the Meiji had. My production is not as efficient or as high quality as the West but I have massive scales.

Because you can't exactly fix an entire country and bring it up to the exact standards of Germany and Austria, ad an example. And specifically because of the scale. We need to keep things balanced, you can't have China's huge army on exactly modern standards.

Your army would be decent, but you would still be working towards Westernizing it.

I'm not saying Germany or Austria. But definitely say somewhere between Russia and Japan (OTL). Like I said, I've had 24 years to reform. I'm not cutting edge, but I'm very formidable. While I am huge, the technologies of the day keep me limited. I'm not going to be sending a multi-million man army far from my territory, the logistics wouldn't work. I don't see what I need to Westernize. I'd say only a very small portion of my army would be anywhere near German-level quality.

I don't have much of a navy either.

I'll work on improving quality but I should be no worse than the CSA or Russia in terms of quality. Hell, remember the Russo-Japanese war? And that's set 9 years before this.

[Trotza]

Hell, remember the Russo-Japanese war?

Part of that was simply the logistics problems the Russians had to deal with, sending a fleet around and all that. If they were head to head it'd be a different story.

[Dires]

Hell, remember the Russo-Japanese war?

Part of that was simply the logistics problems the Russians had to deal with, sending a fleet around and all that. If they were head to head it'd be a different story.

That was 9 years ago. A lot changes in a decade.

[Tracian Empire]

Because you can't exactly fix an entire country and bring it up to the exact standards of Germany and Austria, ad an example. And specifically because of the scale. We need to keep things balanced, you can't have China's huge army on exactly modern standards.

Your army would be decent, but you would still be working towards Westernizing it.

I'm not saying Germany or Austria. But definitely say somewhere between Russia and France. Like I said, I've had 24 years to reform. I'm not cutting edge, but I'm very formidable. While I am huge, the technologies of the day keep me limited. I'm not going to be sending a multi-million man army far from my territory, the logistics wouldn't work. I don't see what I need to Westernize. I'd say only a very small portion of my army would be anywhere near German-level quality.

I don't have much of a navy either.

I'll work on improving quality but I should be no worse than the CSA or Russia in terms of quality. Hell, remember the Russo-Japanese war?

I would definitely see your nation have Westernised partially. But compare it to the westernization process in EUIV. The idea is that the society will somewhat oppose the process. You'll have to fight the remains of feudalism. 24 years is not enough to be on the level of nations which have been Western for centuries. You would probably be around Russia's level, but unlike real life Russia, you would still be modernizing.

As for the military, a part of it could be very well on Western standards. But if you're going to use conscription, a large part of it won't.

[Trotza]

Part of that was simply the logistics problems the Russians had to deal with, sending a fleet around and all that. If they were head to head it'd be a different story.

That was 9 years ago. A lot changes in a decade.

Then why did you use it as a comparison?

[Dires]

That was 9 years ago. A lot changes in a decade.

Then why did you use it as a comparison?

It was a useful metric. If the Japanese could beat the Russians (with a handicap) in 1905, I shouldn't be any worse than either with an additional 10 years to catch up.

[Tracian Empire]

Then why did you use it as a comparison?

It was a useful metric. If the Japanese could beat the Russians (with a handicap) in 1905, I shouldn't be any worse than either with an additional 10 years to catch up.

You are also much larger than Japan, so much more difficult to modernize.

[Dires]

I'm not saying Germany or Austria. But definitely say somewhere between Russia and France. Like I said, I've had 24 years to reform. I'm not cutting edge, but I'm very formidable. While I am huge, the technologies of the day keep me limited. I'm not going to be sending a multi-million man army far from my territory, the logistics wouldn't work. I don't see what I need to Westernize. I'd say only a very small portion of my army would be anywhere near German-level quality.

I don't have much of a navy either.

I'll work on improving quality but I should be no worse than the CSA or Russia in terms of quality. Hell, remember the Russo-Japanese war?

I would definitely see your nation have Westernised partially. But compare it to the westernization process in EUIV. The idea is that the society will somewhat oppose the process. You'll have to fight the remains of feudalism. 24 years is not enough to be on the level of nations which have been Western for centuries. You would probably be around Russia's level, but unlike real life Russia, you would still be modernizing.

As for the military, a part of it could be very well on Western standards. But if you're going to use conscription, a large part of it won't.

Yeah, you're right - civil society and science isn't there yet. It's also why I had Cixi executed in my history, as well as had her former allies purged, speeds up my progress. As for feudalism, the nobility has been channeled into my legislatures, not much feudalism to begin with honestly - China has a long history of imperial central government.

That's exactly what I'm saying for my military. The elite match match German level, the standard army matches Russia/Japan, and any draft recruits past that would be terrible lol

[Dires]

It was a useful metric. If the Japanese could beat the Russians (with a handicap) in 1905, I shouldn't be any worse than either with an additional 10 years to catch up.

You are also much larger than Japan, so much more difficult to modernize.

True, but since I'm so big anyways, I don't need to be fully modernized throughout the country, just the key areas such as the coast, and some Central China so to speak. We look big but a ton of that land is empty.

They key was to modernize the central government/military and heavily industrialize and build up the wealthy coast. With 24 years with a capable leader and little major political opponents, it seems feasible to me.

[Dires]

My secret police played their role in terms of keeping a tight lid on the empire.

[Tracian Empire]

You are also much larger than Japan, so much more difficult to modernize.

True, but since I'm so big anyways, I don't need to be fully modernized throughout the country, just the key areas such as the coast, and some Central China so to speak. We look big but a ton of that land is empty.

They key was to modernize the central government/military and heavily industrialize and build up the wealthy coast. With 24 years with a capable leader and little major political opponents, it seems feasible to me.

It would be, but you need to take into account the instability created by that in the very society of the country. And obviously, even if you have westernized your center, you can't possibly reach the exact same level as the Western nations themselves, and that's what I want to point.

[The Alps Confederation]

760,000 active duty and 1st Reserve personnel: former Class A and B(1) conscripts after two-year active tour with 17 and 1/2 year commitment
100,000 Second line Reserve: Same as above but former Class B(2) conscripts
440,000 National Army
- 1st National Army: 37- to 40-year-old men from end of 1st Reserve to 40 years old.
- 2nd National Army: untrained 20-year-olds and over-40-year-old trained reserves.
8,500,000 men available for service and mobilization.

Should I lower these numbers by 25% 50% ? I went with these numbers due to my large population size and trying to balance the ratio.
Also, in particular with the last category, since there won't be enough rifles to equip them all, some have to resort to indigenous and improvised weapons.

[Dires]

True, but since I'm so big anyways, I don't need to be fully modernized throughout the country, just the key areas such as the coast, and some Central China so to speak. We look big but a ton of that land is empty.

They key was to modernize the central government/military and heavily industrialize and build up the wealthy coast. With 24 years with a capable leader and little major political opponents, it seems feasible to me.

It would be, but you need to take into account the instability created by that in the very society of the country. And obviously, even if you have westernized your center, you can't possibly reach the exact same level as the Western nations themselves, and that's what I want to point.

The Soviets were fine. I did the same with my secret police. I can accept that, I just want you to quantify the gap and in which areas.

[Zostra]

It was a useful metric. If the Japanese could beat the Russians (with a handicap) in 1905, I shouldn't be any worse than either with an additional 10 years to catch up.

You are also much larger than Japan, so much more difficult to modernize.

Yeah, Japan is small and was already extremely urbanized which made it much easier to reform. This was also combined with near absolute homogeneity in culture, language, and religion and a holy reverence for the emperor. China could definitely form a modern, westernized core, think of the Nanjing Decade. However, even modern China has problems with extreme poverty, corruption, and general backwardness in rural and "frontier" areas. I imagine this China would suffer from the same issues.

[Trotza]

You are also much larger than Japan, so much more difficult to modernize.

True, but since I'm so big anyways, I don't need to be fully modernized throughout the country, just the key areas such as the coast, and some Central China so to speak. We look big but a ton of that land is empty.

They key was to modernize the central government/military and heavily industrialize and build up the wealthy coast. With 24 years with a capable leader and little major political opponents, it seems feasible to me.

This sounds more like modern day Chinese production capacity ambitions to me. Except before that could happen they kind of needed the Cultural Revolution to wipe away what remained of the old society to clear the path for the new. As far as I'm aware you haven't had that level of a sociopolitical event.

[Tracian Empire]

It would be, but you need to take into account the instability created by that in the very society of the country. And obviously, even if you have westernized your center, you can't possibly reach the exact same level as the Western nations themselves, and that's what I want to point.

The Soviets were fine. I did the same with my secret police. I can accept that, I just want you to quantify the gap and in which areas.

The Soviets themselves only reached that point with tje help of the five year plans and with disastrous effects for their country, including famines which resulted in the deaths of millions.

[Tracian Empire]

True, but since I'm so big anyways, I don't need to be fully modernized throughout the country, just the key areas such as the coast, and some Central China so to speak. We look big but a ton of that land is empty.

They key was to modernize the central government/military and heavily industrialize and build up the wealthy coast. With 24 years with a capable leader and little major political opponents, it seems feasible to me.

This sounds more like modern day Chinese production capacity ambitions to me. Except before that could happen they kind of needed the Cultural Revolution to wipe away what remained of the old society to clear the path for the new. As far as I'm aware you haven't had that level of a sociopolitical event.

That's why I'm comparing it to Imperial Russia. A Westernized center, and the capability to be quite modern, but a still backwards society and many problems.

[Dires]

You are also much larger than Japan, so much more difficult to modernize.

Yeah, Japan is small and was already extremely urbanized which made it much easier to reform. This was also combined with near absolute homogeneity in culture, language, and religion and a holy reverence for the emperor. China could definitely form a modern, westernized core, think of the Nanjing Decade. However, even modern China has problems with extreme poverty, corruption, and general backwardness in rural and "frontier" areas. I imagine this China would suffer from the same issues.

That's fine, though resurgence in China's position has restored a similar level of awe in the citizenry for our own Emperor who's still the Son of Heaven. Plus, we've had a standardized written language for over 2000 years so language isn't a large a barrier for us. That's what I was imagining, a modern westernized core.

[The Alps Confederation]

Could I have some FEEDBACK pls?

[Greater Slavic Union]

Any of you knows Serbian?

[Trotza]

It would be, but you need to take into account the instability created by that in the very society of the country. And obviously, even if you have westernized your center, you can't possibly reach the exact same level as the Western nations themselves, and that's what I want to point.

The Soviets were fine. I did the same with my secret police. I can accept that, I just want you to quantify the gap and in which areas.

The Soviets were not fine. Think massive purges and then the consequences of having those gone leading to the famine of 1931-1933. Mao's sweeping plans had similarly devastating consequences. Short term high speed attempts at industrialization don't work.

Oh Trace ninja'd me on the famines. Darn.

[Trotza]

Could I have some FEEDBACK pls?

Sure. I find your concept for a nation and explanation of how you say it came to be distasteful as a whole.