1870 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][Discussion]

[The New Byzantine II]

Well, I could play as a nationalist France that is under Bonaparte dynasty, or the Inca where the Incans defeated the Spanish invasion at mid-1600s.

[Oscalantine]

Hey, are there unclaimed lands in Europe nor Asia?

France, maybe? As for Asia, I'm not sure.

Oriental Asia is completely full. Well... there was very little room with Super Korea, Super Japan, and Super China in the region to begin with.

Squeezing out of the Oriental Privilege, Southeast Asia is sort of open. Of course... it is target of colonialism by Orient as well as Europe, so best luck there. something like Vietnam isn't taken, so you can technically have a go, although you would be thrown into hotbed of colonial activity and would have to struggle to be recognized.

Europe... I think we still have France left. No one claimed Scandinavia... well, no one did and returned to tell the tale... and our Spanish reserve dude is surprisingly silent. Portugal is also technically viable but I am not sure how much colonies I can afford for you without maddening everyone else involved.

[Tracian Empire]

Italia, too?

This is to both Trace and Void, but... technically speaking, the only ones with true railway would be nation in Germanic region. Rest would indeed have railways, but they would nowhere NEAR be spread and sprawling as you would like.

Railways would exist, for instance, covering Constantinople to Persian Gulf, as there would clearly be a need for them. Similarly, Rome to Venezia to Germanic region would be something logical, as trade is again concerned. However... would you have country-spanning railways networks like Germanic region? I have to say no to that one ^^;;;

I only wanted one between my main cities. From Constantinople to Thessaloniki and Athens, and from the Asian part of Constantinople to Nicaea, Antioch, Jerusalem. And that one to the Persian Gulf.

[Oscalantine]

Well, I could play as a nationalist France that is under Bonaparte dynasty, or the Inca where the Incans defeated the Spanish invasion at mid-1600s.

Both valid, although technically lore point Spanish invasion in mid-1600 would not have occurred due to myself and Nova, our Aztec player, is conceiving.

Inca would be at stronger position than it would be in IRL, as no Old World diseases would have meant that your population would not have been wiped out. Aztec would have acted as buffer to your civilization, leaving you slightly technological deprived (as in no tech advantage and only up until 1870 for you) but you would be completely independent nation vying for control of the South America.

As mentioned, though, you have very little room to expand. Aztec to your north and Brazil to your east means that you are a bit squeezed. So make of that as you would, since colonialism of your own would be the only answer for easy expansion should you seek it.

[Oscalantine]

This is to both Trace and Void, but... technically speaking, the only ones with true railway would be nation in Germanic region. Rest would indeed have railways, but they would nowhere NEAR be spread and sprawling as you would like.

Railways would exist, for instance, covering Constantinople to Persian Gulf, as there would clearly be a need for them. Similarly, Rome to Venezia to Germanic region would be something logical, as trade is again concerned. However... would you have country-spanning railways networks like Germanic region? I have to say no to that one ^^;;;

I only wanted one between my main cities. From Constantinople to Thessaloniki and Athens, and from the Asian part of Constantinople to Nicaea, Antioch, Jerusalem. And that one to the Persian Gulf.

It doesn't make sense that core cities in Med Sea would also have railways. It would be something if, for instance, a port city in Israel to have a railway leading to Jerusalem. That makes logical sense. With such an impressive coastline it would have been seen as something of moot point to make railways. Sure... one visionary Emperor could have stepped up to the task, but such Emperors should be RPed, not left in the history... as that would be giving awkward advantage to otherwise illogical history.

At least, that's my opinion. You feel free to toss that into the board and we'll decide how much railway we all can have. I, for one, was taking trade-approach... doesn't make sense to make another road when you seriously don't need it.

[Tracian Empire]

I only wanted one between my main cities. From Constantinople to Thessaloniki and Athens, and from the Asian part of Constantinople to Nicaea, Antioch, Jerusalem. And that one to the Persian Gulf.

It doesn't make sense that core cities in Med Sea would also have railways. It would be something if, for instance, a port city in Israel to have a railway leading to Jerusalem. That makes logical sense. With such an impressive coastline it would have been seen as something of moot point to make railways. Sure... one visionary Emperor could have stepped up to the task, but such Emperors should be RPed, not left in the history... as that would be giving awkward advantage to otherwise illogical history.

At least, that's my opinion. You feel free to toss that into the board and we'll decide how much railway we all can have. I, for one, was taking trade-approach... doesn't make sense to make another road when you seriously don't need it.

Well, at the very least, I could see two main railways, both starting from Constantinople. One leading to the port of Thessaloniki, and then to the West towards the Huns, and one from Constantinople, to Nicaea, the southern Anatolian port I keep forgetting, and then to Antioch. From there, it splits into two, part going to the Persian Gulf, part to Sinai.

But yes, as in the past threads, my Emperor loves railways.

Rome would still have one of the best systems of actual, normal roads though.

[The V O I D]

It doesn't make sense that core cities in Med Sea would also have railways. It would be something if, for instance, a port city in Israel to have a railway leading to Jerusalem. That makes logical sense. With such an impressive coastline it would have been seen as something of moot point to make railways. Sure... one visionary Emperor could have stepped up to the task, but such Emperors should be RPed, not left in the history... as that would be giving awkward advantage to otherwise illogical history.

At least, that's my opinion. You feel free to toss that into the board and we'll decide how much railway we all can have. I, for one, was taking trade-approach... doesn't make sense to make another road when you seriously don't need it.

Well, at the very least, I could see two main railways, both starting from Constantinople. One leading to the port of Thessaloniki, and then to the West towards the Huns, and one from Constantinople, to Nicaea, the southern Anatolian port I keep forgetting, and then to Antioch. From there, it splits into two, part going to the Persian Gulf, part to Sinai.


But yes, as in the past threads, my Emperor loves railways.

Rome would still have one of the best systems of actual, normal roads though.

Italia probably has railroads to all major port cities that end at Rome and other major cities, as well as one railroad system that ends near the Hunnic Empire and any port cities there. I plan to have Italia expand that railway in Croatia to connect to Byzantium if we go through with invading them; so the Two Romes can finally be connected, once again.

[Sanabel]

Novgorod will mostly use rivers and canals with a few token railroads(Odessa to Moscow to Novgorod), but now that there is more technology available in that field, more will be built ICly.

My end goal is an Urumqi to Riga railway.

[Oscalantine]

Hmmm... well, more people wanting rail means that I did have to have a quick runthrough.

IRL-wise, you guys are right and that railways were on its boom since early 1800's and networks should be at least leading to major cities by our timeline. Very few major lines would not have been constructed in developed world. Eastern Europe should lag behind, but everyone within developed world should have at least some railway in the cities.

As a result, I retract my previous statement about railways. Major cities should have rails going whichever direction. Rome (I usually mean Trace's Roman Empire when I say Rome... Italy I usually refer to Italy and not capital Rome) would make exception as... despite not being part of the Western Europe culture group, there are enough evidence to suggest that road was just a Roman thing, and they would have pushed for more efficient transit system if ability permitted them to do so.

If... this somehow becomes more bloated, it will be taken into consideration by the board, as up until now I only stated what was based on IRL history.

[Old Tyrannia]

France, maybe? As for Asia, I'm not sure.

Oriental Asia is completely full. Well... there was very little room with Super Korea, Super Japan, and Super China in the region to begin with.

Squeezing out of the Oriental Privilege, Southeast Asia is sort of open. Of course... it is target of colonialism by Orient as well as Europe, so best luck there. something like Vietnam isn't taken, so you can technically have a go, although you would be thrown into hotbed of colonial activity and would have to struggle to be recognized.

Europe... I think we still have France left. No one claimed Scandinavia... well, no one did and returned to tell the tale... and our Spanish reserve dude is surprisingly silent. Portugal is also technically viable but I am not sure how much colonies I can afford for you without maddening everyone else involved.

I would imagine that Vietnam would be a part of the Oriental Tech group, and therefore be at least on equal terms technologically with any would-be colonisers, making colonisation difficult. Plus I would like to have an independent Vietnam in the RP and would likely support it as Japan, providing that doing so didn't go directly against my own interests.

[Zostra]

Trying to decide which direction to take southern China. Possibilities include a (somewhat) functioning liberal democracy, an authoritarian modernising republic akin to the Kuomintang, or a constitutional monarchy split between aristocrats and popular movements.

This is going to be VERY fun. Main rationale is that your northern neighbor Korea is going to be SUPER imperialistic and will be very much a military pressure from North that you will need to maintain a friendly relationship with. Japan is to a lesser degree, but will be directly competing with you over colonies in Southeast Asia and beyond. It would certainly be interesting for all three nations trying to hot-potato this political mess between ourselves XDDD

Especially when the European get involved!

A republic wouldn't make much sense seeing as the East Asian nations modernised independently of the Europeans and would have no reason to adopt European political theories. South China would probably be some kind of Confucian monarchy, although it could have developed into a democracy.

Hmm... putting it that way, it DOES make sense. Considering that this new China is spiritual successor of Song Dynasty, it would fall to similar values of having an Emperor served by bureaucrats of scholar-gentry. Meanwhile, the concept of "democracy" and "republic" is something of European invention, sown back into European politics via Napoleon. I completely forgot about this particular tidbit XDDD.

I was trying to make a compromise... but Ty is right. Man, evolution from monarchy to republic would be SUCH a drastic turnover in Asian philosophy. Perhaps a similar revolution as Europe happened in your history? Tired of corruption and war, a commoner takes arms and fights for the rights of the people, stating that Emperor lost the Mandate of Heaven. His policy of including the people (for he was a commoner with little knowledge), he held a sort of "popularity poll" among his troops to vote in whoever was the brightest and best represented of his aids. These chosen aids created the inner circle of political decision and assisted the Leader with his efforts to overthrow the crown. The revolution eventually succeeds, but just before the Leader is assassinated with no heir to be found. Rather than throwing the country into chaos, the inner circle of aids continue the Leader's dream of China by accepting the will of the people.

Over time, the popularity polls still occur, but only in the capital city, where the denizens receive much more privileged lifestyle. They eventually form into rich central elites that compete for political power, expanding their influence. There still if a figurative Emperor, but in golden statue only, sort of deified as spiritual leader of the people. His words are immortalized into scriptures that serve as a quasi-constitution of the land, and its meanings are interpretative by central circle elected by the popularity poll within the capital city.

... that's the best I got. Edit it, scrap it... whatever you want with it. I was trying to figure out a way for China, of all nations, to have SOME form of democracy and this is the best I could do while maintaining the historical status quo.

True, I was kind of leaning constitutional monarchy originally. If the trends of the Song continued, however, they'd be linked into global trade networks which could introduce European concepts to the country and its literate middle class. Eventually this could lead to a partially westernized nation, but it would still be heavily influenced by traditional Chinese culture.

[Novacom]

Oriental Asia is completely full. Well... there was very little room with Super Korea, Super Japan, and Super China in the region to begin with.

Squeezing out of the Oriental Privilege, Southeast Asia is sort of open. Of course... it is target of colonialism by Orient as well as Europe, so best luck there. something like Vietnam isn't taken, so you can technically have a go, although you would be thrown into hotbed of colonial activity and would have to struggle to be recognized.

Europe... I think we still have France left. No one claimed Scandinavia... well, no one did and returned to tell the tale... and our Spanish reserve dude is surprisingly silent. Portugal is also technically viable but I am not sure how much colonies I can afford for you without maddening everyone else involved.

I would imagine that Vietnam would be a part of the Oriental Tech group, and therefore be at least on equal terms technologically with any would-be colonisers, making colonisation difficult. Plus I would like to have an independent Vietnam in the RP and would likely support it as Japan, providing that doing so didn't go directly against my own interests.

To be short, thus far we don't have anything in North America bar something in the west coast and a New England, nothing in Africa bar an Ethiopia type thing, in Asia, Indochina is free, as is Northern India, all of Oceania is free. In Europe France is free there has been one mention of Spain then never again a Poland has been mooted but only once and nothing in Scandinavia, as for South America there's a sizable amount of territory as Brazil has also been mentioned once and not again.

[Tracian Empire]

Hmmm... well, more people wanting rail means that I did have to have a quick runthrough.

IRL-wise, you guys are right and that railways were on its boom since early 1800's and networks should be at least leading to major cities by our timeline. Very few major lines would not have been constructed in developed world. Eastern Europe should lag behind, but everyone within developed world should have at least some railway in the cities.

As a result, I retract my previous statement about railways. Major cities should have rails going whichever direction. Rome (I usually mean Trace's Roman Empire when I say Rome... Italy I usually refer to Italy and not capital Rome) would make exception as... despite not being part of the Western Europe culture group, there are enough evidence to suggest that road was just a Roman thing, and they would have pushed for more efficient transit system if ability permitted them to do so.

If... this somehow becomes more bloated, it will be taken into consideration by the board, as up until now I only stated what was based on IRL history.

Well, from Rome's point of view, having a good infrastructure is the sign of a good civilization. The Romans have always been obsessed with roads. Railroads would logically be seen as the next step.

[Danceria]

I would like to create a Polish-Lithuania under House Vasa, if possible, with holdings in Sweden/Finland.

[Tracian Empire]

I would like to create a Polish-Lithuania under House Vasa, if possible, with holdings in Sweden/Finland.

They're mostly free, I think. Though Poland and Lithuania are small and surrounded from all sides.

[Second Helghan Empire]

I would like to create a Polish-Lithuania under House Vasa, if possible, with holdings in Sweden/Finland.

They're mostly free, I think. Though Poland and Lithuania are small and surrounded from all sides.

Yes, I must say I personally would go more a scandinavian power and forget Poland-Lithuania, though if you really wish to play with that, then more power to you that will make your work cut out for you I think.

[Sanabel]

I think Poland-Lithuania would be fun. Scandinavia is just such a cliche.

[Danceria]

I think Poland-Lithuania would be fun. Scandinavia is just such a cliche.

By Poland-Lithuania, I mean the whole fugging Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth along with the Swedish peninsula. I'm not sure whether to cede Finland to Novogrod in exchange for the Zealand and Lolland of Denmark...and get the rest of Estonia.

[Second Helghan Empire]

I think Poland-Lithuania would be fun. Scandinavia is just such a cliche.

By Poland-Lithuania, I mean the whole fugging Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth along with the Swedish peninsula. I'm not sure whether to cede Finland to Novogrod in exchange for the Zealand and Lolland of Denmark...and get the rest of Estonia.

That could prove to be a problem, especially with several nations wishing to claim lands you just proposed. Especially in the case of Ukraine, Belarus and the polish coast...

Not saying it's not negotiable, just saying that it will need lots of working out.

[Togeria]

What I miss?

[Danceria]

By Poland-Lithuania, I mean the whole fugging Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth along with the Swedish peninsula. I'm not sure whether to cede Finland to Novogrod in exchange for the Zealand and Lolland of Denmark...and get the rest of Estonia.

That could prove to be a problem, especially with several nations wishing to claim lands you just proposed. Especially in the case of Ukraine, Belarus and the polish coast...

Not saying it's not negotiable, just saying that it will need lots of working out.

But of course. This was merely a ballpark "Desired amount of clay". I trust between Germany, other Scandinavians, and Novgorod, we can strike a fair partition...unlike those that occurred in the 1800s...

[Sanabel]

I think Poland-Lithuania would be fun. Scandinavia is just such a cliche.

By Poland-Lithuania, I mean the whole fugging Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth along with the Swedish peninsula. I'm not sure whether to cede Finland to Novogrod in exchange for the Zealand and Lolland of Denmark...and get the rest of Estonia.

I'd really, really, really, really appreciate not having my land claims butchered like this.

I'm sure Germany and the Huns feel the exact same.

[Second Helghan Empire]

That could prove to be a problem, especially with several nations wishing to claim lands you just proposed. Especially in the case of Ukraine, Belarus and the polish coast...

Not saying it's not negotiable, just saying that it will need lots of working out.

But of course. This was merely a ballpark "Desired amount of clay". I trust between Germany, other Scandinavians, and Novgorod, we can strike a fair partition...unlike those that occurred in the 1800s...

Actually you have large amounts of land on that map for Poland-Lithuania that are currently being preliminarily claimed by myself, Sanabel, WIU, and Possibly Trace through I'm not certain there. What I am certain of is the Prussian Coastline I have is a core claim I am not willing to part with being as my nation is largely based on a Teutonic stylized idea.I also know that massive amounts of those southern areas were asked for by WIU who is wishing to be the Huns, and much of the southern area and eastern area are claimed by Novgorod played by Sanabel. Some of the Extreme south may even be currently claimed by the Romans/byzantines played by Trace. I am sure you see the size of the problem now is more than at first glance.

[Sanabel]

There's really not much I'd be willing to give up.

[Danceria]

But of course. This was merely a ballpark "Desired amount of clay". I trust between Germany, other Scandinavians, and Novgorod, we can strike a fair partition...unlike those that occurred in the 1800s...

Actually you have large amounts of land on that map for Poland-Lithuania that are currently being preliminarily claimed by myself, Sanabel, WIU, and Possibly Trace through I'm not certain there. What I am certain of is the Prussian Coastline I have is a core claim I am not willing to part with being as my nation is largely based on a Teutonic stylized idea.I also know that massive amounts of those southern areas were asked for by WIU who is wishing to be the Huns, and much of the southern area and eastern area are claimed by Novgorod played by Sanabel. Some of the Extreme south may even be currently claimed by the Romans/byzantines played by Trace. I am sure you see the size of the problem now is more than at first glance.

So...More Sweden than Poland?