1870 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][Discussion]

[Obilisia]

You know what the good thing is? My name is now Moscow heresy, that's way cooler than Perm, which is a hairstyle name.

The idea of Moscow seceding from Russia makes my head hurt.

Thats why it's so good, because it doesn't make a damn bit of sense in RL

[Old Tyrannia]

The idea of Moscow seceding from Russia makes my head hurt.

Considering that Muscovy itself is Russia, it is of course, strange.

I suppose the name "Russia" comes from the Kievan Rus' originally, so an alternate Russia centred around a city other than Moscow isn't totally beyond the pale.

Should I change my name to Holy church of Moscow or Holy church of Muscovite?

Same thing; "Muscovy" is just an Anglicisation that has fallen out of fashion.

[Obilisia]

Considering that Muscovy itself is Russia, it is of course, strange.

I suppose the name "Russia" comes from the Kievan Rus' originally, so an alternate Russia centred around a city other than Moscow isn't totally beyond the pale.

Should I change my name to Holy church of Moscow or Holy church of Muscovite?

Same thing; "Muscovy" is just an Anglicisation that has fallen out of fashion.

Haha how ever it works!

[Stadenwick]

*leans really close, and whisper
Москва третий Рим

Though, you still wouldn't have any kind of right to the title of the third Rome. Constantinople is still the second Rome, and it never had any kind of contact with Moscow.

So it would be the same as if, let's say, Vladivostok would declare itself the third Rome.

I do have that right, to declare Moscow the second Constantinople and third Rome, thanks to my schism.

[Tracian Empire]

Though, you still wouldn't have any kind of right to the title of the third Rome. Constantinople is still the second Rome, and it never had any kind of contact with Moscow.

So it would be the same as if, let's say, Vladivostok would declare itself the third Rome.

I do have that right, to declare Moscow the second Constantinople and third Rome, thanks to my schism.

Sorry, I used a wrong word. You have all the right to, but you'd be lacking legitimacy and credibility outside of Russia. You have no connection to any of the former Romes, and the Russian Orthodox Church didn't took the dominant position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in this timeline. And plus, it's difficult to be the third Rome since the second is still there.

So, at least for now, your influence will remain in Russia, and that's what makes it all more interesting.

[Old Tyrannia]

I do have that right, to declare Moscow the second Constantinople and third Rome, thanks to my schism.

Sorry, I used a wrong word. You have all the right to, but you'd be lacking legitimacy and credibility outside of Russia. You have no connection to any of the former Romes, and the Russian Orthodox Church didn't took the dominant position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in this timeline. And plus, it's difficult to be the third Rome since the second is still there.

So, at least for now, your influence will remain in Russia, and that's what makes it all more interesting.

Basically, Stadenwick is RPing as the Russian, Orthodox version of Mormonism and Deseret.

[Tracian Empire]

Sorry, I used a wrong word. You have all the right to, but you'd be lacking legitimacy and credibility outside of Russia. You have no connection to any of the former Romes, and the Russian Orthodox Church didn't took the dominant position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in this timeline. And plus, it's difficult to be the third Rome since the second is still there.

So, at least for now, your influence will remain in Russia, and that's what makes it all more interesting.

Basically, Stadenwick is RPing as the Russian, Orthodox version of Mormonism and Deseret.

Something in that direction, with some anti-Pope stuff hidden in since he claims to be a new Ecumenical Patriarch.

That's why I don't like heresies. They need to be burned.

[Stadenwick]

I do have that right, to declare Moscow the second Constantinople and third Rome, thanks to my schism.

Sorry, I used a wrong word. You have all the right to, but you'd be lacking legitimacy and credibility outside of Russia. You have no connection to any of the former Romes, and the Russian Orthodox Church didn't took the dominant position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in this timeline. And plus, it's difficult to be the third Rome since the second is still there.

So, at least for now, your influence will remain in Russia, and that's what makes it all more interesting.

First Rome fall to the egoistical Pope and second to the Emperor, it's like naturally dead thing in British inheritance system.

Basically, Stadenwick is RPing as the Russian, Orthodox version of Mormonism and Deseret.

Something in that direction, with some anti-Pope stuff hidden in since he claims to be a new Ecumenical Patriarch.

That's why I don't like heresies. They need to be burned.

This is going to be in my sig, just saying.

[Tracian Empire]

Sorry, I used a wrong word. You have all the right to, but you'd be lacking legitimacy and credibility outside of Russia. You have no connection to any of the former Romes, and the Russian Orthodox Church didn't took the dominant position of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in this timeline. And plus, it's difficult to be the third Rome since the second is still there.

So, at least for now, your influence will remain in Russia, and that's what makes it all more interesting.

First Rome fall to the egoistical Pope and second to the Emperor, it's like naturally dead thing in British inheritance system.

Something in that direction, with some anti-Pope stuff hidden in since he claims to be a new Ecumenical Patriarch.

That's why I don't like heresies. They need to be burned.

This is going to be in my sig, just saying.

Which would be believed only in Rossiya, because the rest of the Orthodox world would clearly choose the already millennia old existing Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

One God, One Ecumenical Patriarch, One Church!

If you want so

But I'm probably going to go all 40k on heretics. Heretics must burn.

[Stadenwick]

First Rome fall to the egoistical Pope and second to the Emperor, it's like naturally dead thing in British inheritance system.


This is going to be in my sig, just saying.

Which would be believed only in Rossiya, because the rest of the Orthodox world would clearly choose the already millennia old existing Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

One God, One Ecumenical Patriarch, One Church!

And like the third, maybe quarter of population in Eastern Europe who follow Orthodoxy. The history will be changed since I met an agreement with Oblisia, so no Nicea yet, it's still heresy not full fledged schism yet.

[Tracian Empire]

Which would be believed only in Rossiya, because the rest of the Orthodox world would clearly choose the already millennia old existing Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

One God, One Ecumenical Patriarch, One Church!

And like the third, maybe quarter of population in Eastern Europe who follow Orthodoxy. The history will be changed since I met an agreement with Oblisia, so no Nicea yet, it's still heresy not full fledged schism yet.

Most likely. The Christian Orthodox people are some of the most conservative Christians, your heresy would need to convince people really well in order for them to join you.

[Stadenwick]

And like the third, maybe quarter of population in Eastern Europe who follow Orthodoxy. The history will be changed since I met an agreement with Oblisia, so no Nicea yet, it's still heresy not full fledged schism yet.

Most likely. The Christian Orthodox people are some of the most conservative Christians, your heresy would need to convince people really well in order for them to join you.

Pretty sure being the main church of Russian Orthodoxy in Moscow and doing this for 5 years or more, considering how the Tsar created the Russian Orthodoxy helps, but that's just my opinion you know. Maybe not so much of Third Rome yet, as "wait a minute why would a king lead a religion instead you know, the Priest?" for now. As well the thought that Constantinople is kinda corrupt, greedy, flashy...all that kind of stuff that make both peasants and bourgeois thinking.

[Obilisia]

And like the third, maybe quarter of population in Eastern Europe who follow Orthodoxy. The history will be changed since I met an agreement with Oblisia, so no Nicea yet, it's still heresy not full fledged schism yet.

Most likely. The Christian Orthodox people are some of the most conservative Christians, your heresy would need to convince people really well in order for them to join you.

Honestly he is separating from Neo-Russia, So he would be coming from a place where the Emperor Claims lead of the Orthodox Christians of Russia. So I think his followers within my borders would move to his lands and my followers would move to mine. While the ones who remain loyal to Constantinople would have remained in the Far west part of former russia now under management of Togeria. That way they could practice their religion without aggression from the government of Neo-Russia and Moscow.

[Obilisia]

Most likely. The Christian Orthodox people are some of the most conservative Christians, your heresy would need to convince people really well in order for them to join you.

Pretty sure being the main church of Russian Orthodoxy in Moscow and doing this for 5 years or more, considering how the Tsar created the Russian Orthodoxy helps, but that's just my opinion you know. Maybe not so much of Third Rome yet, as "wait a minute why would a king lead a religion instead you know, the Priest?" for now. As well the thought that Constantinople is kinda corrupt, greedy, flashy...all that kind of stuff that make both peasants and bourgeois thinking.

Exactly so we get the three divides, mine who want me as a Tsar and a leader of Orthodxy in Neo-Russia, Yours who maintain the leader of Orthodoxy should be a priest of the religion, and the rest in Togeria's land who maintain that Orthodoxy should remain at the power of Constantinople.

[Tracian Empire]

Most likely. The Christian Orthodox people are some of the most conservative Christians, your heresy would need to convince people really well in order for them to join you.

Honestly he is separating from Neo-Russia, So he would be coming from a place where the Emperor Claims lead of the Orthodox Christians of Russia. So I think his followers within my borders would move to his lands and my followers would move to mine. While the ones who remain loyal to Constantinople would have remained in the Far west part of former russia now under management of Togeria. That way they could practice their religion without aggression from the government of Neo-Russia and Moscow.

I'm talking about the every day Orthodox people, the commoners. There would be a lot of them who wouldn't have joined your Orthodox faction once your Tsar became Patriarch, and there would be a lot who would remain loyal to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. That's why we'll have some nasty religious wars.

[Tracian Empire]

Pretty sure being the main church of Russian Orthodoxy in Moscow and doing this for 5 years or more, considering how the Tsar created the Russian Orthodoxy helps, but that's just my opinion you know. Maybe not so much of Third Rome yet, as "wait a minute why would a king lead a religion instead you know, the Priest?" for now. As well the thought that Constantinople is kinda corrupt, greedy, flashy...all that kind of stuff that make both peasants and bourgeois thinking.

Exactly so we get the three divides, mine who want me as a Tsar and a leader of Orthodxy in Neo-Russia, Yours who maintain the leader of Orthodoxy should be a priest of the religion, and the rest in Togeria's land who maintain that Orthodoxy should remain at the power of Constantinople.

And the rest of the Orthodox world which will support Constantinople.

[Tracian Empire]

Most likely. The Christian Orthodox people are some of the most conservative Christians, your heresy would need to convince people really well in order for them to join you.

Pretty sure being the main church of Russian Orthodoxy in Moscow and doing this for 5 years or more, considering how the Tsar created the Russian Orthodoxy helps, but that's just my opinion you know. Maybe not so much of Third Rome yet, as "wait a minute why would a king lead a religion instead you know, the Priest?" for now. As well the thought that Constantinople is kinda corrupt, greedy, flashy...all that kind of stuff that make both peasants and bourgeois thinking.

The Russian Orthodox Church itself was for a long time, a junior metropolitanate of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. So firstly, from the original Russian Orthodox Church, there was a split as the Russian Tsar formed his own schismatic church, and then there comes your heresy.

As for the rest, it's debatable. The Emperor does indeed have a great power, but he doesn't control the Church itself. In the Orthodox Church, everything is democratic. But as the Viceroy of Christ, the Emperor does have a great authority. However to the common people, the Patriarchs are the big leaders, so from that point of view, it's still unlikely that your heresy would turn many people against the Ecumenical Patriarch, outside of Russia which is a special snowflake.

Then yes, it could work to say that Constantinople is corrupt, greedy, and flashy, especially in Russia. But your influence will stop at the borders of the Empire

My citizens probably have more rights than many of the Russian nobles.

[Tracian Empire]

You would have much more chances of expanding in Russia if you take advantage of the Russian nationalism, which is the exact reason for why in real life the Russian Orthodox Church broke off from Constantinople.

But we need to discuss something, in the Neo-Russian Empire's history, did the Russian Orthodox Church broke off like in real life, or did it remain autonomous under Constantinople?

[Stadenwick]

Pretty sure being the main church of Russian Orthodoxy in Moscow and doing this for 5 years or more, considering how the Tsar created the Russian Orthodoxy helps, but that's just my opinion you know. Maybe not so much of Third Rome yet, as "wait a minute why would a king lead a religion instead you know, the Priest?" for now. As well the thought that Constantinople is kinda corrupt, greedy, flashy...all that kind of stuff that make both peasants and bourgeois thinking.

The Russian Orthodox Church itself was for a long time, a junior metropolitanate of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. So firstly, from the original Russian Orthodox Church, there was a split as the Russian Tsar formed his own schismatic church, and then there comes your heresy.

As for the rest, it's debatable. The Emperor does indeed have a great power, but he doesn't control the Church itself. In the Orthodox Church, everything is democratic. But as the Viceroy of Christ, the Emperor does have a great authority. However to the common people, the Patriarchs are the big leaders, so from that point of view, it's still unlikely that your heresy would turn many people against the Ecumenical Patriarch, outside of Russia which is a special snowflake.

Then yes, it could work to say that Constantinople is corrupt, greedy, and flashy, especially in Russia. But your influence will stop at the borders of the Empire

My citizens probably have more rights than many of the Russian nobles.

Sssh, they are not supposed to know that.

You know that Russia itself is Eastern Europe right before this whole thing? Excluding Roman Empire of course, but that's already touching Constantinople area.

[Tracian Empire]

The Russian Orthodox Church itself was for a long time, a junior metropolitanate of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. So firstly, from the original Russian Orthodox Church, there was a split as the Russian Tsar formed his own schismatic church, and then there comes your heresy.

As for the rest, it's debatable. The Emperor does indeed have a great power, but he doesn't control the Church itself. In the Orthodox Church, everything is democratic. But as the Viceroy of Christ, the Emperor does have a great authority. However to the common people, the Patriarchs are the big leaders, so from that point of view, it's still unlikely that your heresy would turn many people against the Ecumenical Patriarch, outside of Russia which is a special snowflake.

Then yes, it could work to say that Constantinople is corrupt, greedy, and flashy, especially in Russia. But your influence will stop at the borders of the Empire

My citizens probably have more rights than many of the Russian nobles.

Sssh, they are not supposed to know that.

You know that Russia itself is Eastern Europe right before this whole thing? Excluding Roman Empire of course, but that's already touching Constantinople area.

Yes it is in Eastern Europe, but the Russian areas inhabited by other people, like Ukraine would probably be much more easier to influence by the Roman Orthodox Church.

[Stadenwick]

Sssh, they are not supposed to know that.

You know that Russia itself is Eastern Europe right before this whole thing? Excluding Roman Empire of course, but that's already touching Constantinople area.

Yes it is in Eastern Europe, but the Russian areas inhabited by other people, like Ukraine would probably be much more easier to influence by the Roman Orthodox Church.

Probably will have Moscow fringe as well, but then again It's Togeria problem. I really hope he kicking them out though, so that like 400.000 or sth of his population move to Russia and I'll attack him with it when he's not looking. But if he decide to keep it and enforce Catholic or Constantinople, boom religious separatist.

[Tracian Empire]

Yes it is in Eastern Europe, but the Russian areas inhabited by other people, like Ukraine would probably be much more easier to influence by the Roman Orthodox Church.

Probably will have Moscow fringe as well, but then again It's Togeria problem. I really hope he kicking them out though, so that like 400.000 or sth of his population move to Russia and I'll attack him with it when he's not looking. But if he decide to keep it and enforce Catholic or Constantinople, boom religious separatist.

Constantinople would be using its influence to push for the Commonwealth to accept the existence of the Constantinople supported Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Churches.

[Stadenwick]

Probably will have Moscow fringe as well, but then again It's Togeria problem. I really hope he kicking them out though, so that like 400.000 or sth of his population move to Russia and I'll attack him with it when he's not looking. But if he decide to keep it and enforce Catholic or Constantinople, boom religious separatist.

Constantinople would be using its influence to push for the Commonwealth to accept the existence of the Constantinople supported Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Churches.

But if he let it open, the number might grow, and if he still keeping them stay when I break free from Russia (yea I haven't yet, It's gonna be like Egypt during oriental crisis, at least the plan is) those people will revolt as well against Constantinople faith Queen in the name of separation from Orthodoxy.

And yes, this time Rome can involved to crush this civil war before it's become acknowledged.

[Tracian Empire]

Constantinople would be using its influence to push for the Commonwealth to accept the existence of the Constantinople supported Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Churches.

But if he let it open, the number might grow, and if he still keeping them stay when I break free from Russia (yea I haven't yet, It's gonna be like Egypt during oriental crisis, at least the plan is) those people will revolt as well against Constantinople faith Queen in the name of separation from Orthodoxy.

And yes, this time Rome can involved to crush this civil war before it's become acknowledged.

Rome's plans are great. We shall see what happens.

[Tracian Empire]

It took so long..


But I did it. These are the provinces of the Roman Empire!