1855 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][REBOOT][Semi-closed]

[Obilisia]

Oh come now the Japanese aren't really very powerful either are they? When they are sold land by the Dutch they don't even send their troops there when Hansa soldiers tarting tearing it up by marching across it, they just divert their navy to Saxavhall.

Where on Earth did you get the idea that I wasn't going to respond to Helghan's invasion? I've just been busy. And Japan is obviously far more powerful than you.

Is japan going to war with Israel?

Also I will point out it doesn't matter how powerful someone is if they don't have any allies...

[Old Tyrannia]

Where on Earth did you get the idea that I wasn't going to respond to Helghan's invasion? I've just been busy. And Japan is obviously far more powerful than you.

Is japan going to war with Israel?

Also I will point out it doesn't matter how powerful someone is if they don't have any allies...

No, I have no reason to go to war with Israel as of the moment. And I do have allies. Brazil, Korea, and Saxahvall.

[Cymrea]

Why would Cambria come to the rescue of those under my rule? Would the world really go to war over a genocide because no nations has ever gone to war with another over the genocide of a people that do not represent the majority of that nation.

WW2 was not because of genocide it was because of German expansion. In fact during the war when given the chance to divert resources to diminish the effectiveness of the Nazi final solution they failed to do so as Allied High command felt it more important to pursue targets against the Wermacht.

While I didn't explicitly say that Cambria would come to anyone's rescue - I said that a world war would likely result - I think it's fair to say that Cambria would take notice of genocides in any country, yours or others.

I have very carefully avoided committing any genocides or justifying wars over territory in my colonies, choosing instead for a coexistence policy.

Also, I don't think Jews comprised the majority of any of the Allied nations, yet the genocide of Jews was indeed one of the primary justifications for war on Germany.

[Obilisia]

Is japan going to war with Israel?

Also I will point out it doesn't matter how powerful someone is if they don't have any allies...

No, I have no reason to go to war with Israel as of the moment. And I do have allies. Brazil, Korea, and Saxahvall.

Ah I didn't realize Saxavhall was in there, however I also thought Korea broke the treaties between you two when not supporting you with the chinese. Sorry I am trying to catch up.

[Obilisia]

Why would Cambria come to the rescue of those under my rule? Would the world really go to war over a genocide because no nations has ever gone to war with another over the genocide of a people that do not represent the majority of that nation.

WW2 was not because of genocide it was because of German expansion. In fact during the war when given the chance to divert resources to diminish the effectiveness of the Nazi final solution they failed to do so as Allied High command felt it more important to pursue targets against the Wermacht.

While I didn't explicitly say that Cambria would come to anyone's rescue - I said that a world war would likely result - I think it's fair to say that Cambria would take notice of genocides in any country, yours or others.

I have very carefully avoided committing any genocides or justifying wars over territory in my colonies, choosing instead for a coexistence policy.

Also, I don't think Jews comprised the majority of any of the Allied nations, yet the genocide of Jews was indeed one of the primary justifications for war on Germany.

He is right Cymrea, it was not considered a justification until after the war. During the war it was largely swept under the rug by everyone as the allies wanted the people to focus on the direct war with the reich not the fact that the nazis were genociding people. He said that no-one has ever gone to war to save someone from genocide if that same people was not their majority. That is also completely correct.

Also would you go to war with Israel over their treatment of muslims?

[Cymrea]

While I didn't explicitly say that Cambria would come to anyone's rescue - I said that a world war would likely result - I think it's fair to say that Cambria would take notice of genocides in any country, yours or others.

I have very carefully avoided committing any genocides or justifying wars over territory in my colonies, choosing instead for a coexistence policy.

Also, I don't think Jews comprised the majority of any of the Allied nations, yet the genocide of Jews was indeed one of the primary justifications for war on Germany.

He is right Cymrea, it was not considered a justification until after the war. During the war it was largely swept under the rug by everyone as the allies wanted the people to focus on the direct war with the reich not the fact that the nazis were genociding people. He said that no-one has ever gone to war to save someone from genocide if that same people was not their majority. That is also completely correct.

Also would you go to war with Israel over their treatment of muslims?

Fair enough. Voyage of the damned, and all that.

Umm...war? Probably not right away. But my country's faith is quite tolerant of other religions, so people being murdered for their beliefs would be a dark red flag that would have Cambria considering their options. One of those options being martial intervention.

[Lenyo]

Also, I don't think Jews comprised the majority of any of the Allied nations, yet the genocide of Jews was indeed one of the primary justifications for war on Germany.

False. The holocaust wasn't public knowledge until 1944, when the Red Army started expanding into German-occupied territory and found the death camps. The allies were at war with the Axis long before they knew about the holocaust. China was invaded by Japan in 1937. France and Britain declared in September 1939, when Poland was invaded. The Soviet Union was invaded in summer 1941. The USA showed up fashionably late to WW2 at the very end of 1941.

Of course they teach history that way today, because military history is inundated with nationalism. The sad truth is that hardcore racism had broad support among the Western empires, and eugenics was nearly as popular in the USA and Britain as the Third Reich. We Westerners were more similar to the fascist countries than we like to admit. If you doubt me, read Winston Churchill's memoirs. He had extremely negative opinions on Africans, Australian aborigines, and Iraqis. On the other hand, Churchill was extremely fond of chemical warfare.

[Oscalantine]

XDDD I dont get on for one day (had a club meeting) and the thread devolves into jewish genicide.

Quendi, it isnt involving nearly enough people and it isnt nearly as interesting than if we made it into an event. That is all I am saying ^^;;;

And by that logic, it is so depressing that Panama was such a classless war that Dutch folks are suffering from dogpile... and it was supposed to be a low key war overshadowed by Panama conflict. Dunno about definition of interest there, mate XDDD

[Of the Quendi]

XDDD I dont get on for one day (had a club meeting) and the thread devolves into jewish genicide.

Quendi, it isnt involving nearly enough people and it isnt nearly as interesting than if we made it into an event. That is all I am saying ^^;;;

And by that logic, it is so depressing that Panama was such a classless war that Dutch folks are suffering from dogpile... and it was supposed to be a low key war overshadowed by Panama conflict. Dunno about definition of interest there, mate XDDD

Most people seem to have accepted the Aztec exclusion zone in the Carribbean Sea and so they can't very well be involved in anything related to Panama with or without an event. In any case if people isn't getting involved in Panama now why would and event make them do it?

A major European war between a great power and mid range power shouldn't be overshadowed by a minor colonial dispute in the Americas. It would be beyond bizarre if a German land grab in Europe got less attention then a conflict over a largely irrelevant American isthmus. As for interesting unless one adopt a definition where a war essentially without any cause involving a mega-coalition against a single weaker power with both sides just throwing troops against one another is terribly exciting while a developing diplomatic incident as the culmination of a budding confrontation between rival powers, potentially on the cusps of escalating into a region wide war isn't I don't see how the Dutch thing can be considered the more interesting.

[Cymrea]

Also, I don't think Jews comprised the majority of any of the Allied nations, yet the genocide of Jews was indeed one of the primary justifications for war on Germany.

False. The holocaust wasn't public knowledge until 1944, when the Red Army started expanding into German-occupied territory and found the death camps. The allies were at war with the Axis long before they knew about the holocaust. China was invaded by Japan in 1937. France and Britain declared in September 1939, when Poland was invaded. The Soviet Union was invaded in summer 1941. The USA showed up fashionably late to WW2 at the very end of 1941.

Of course they teach history that way today, because military history is inundated with nationalism. The sad truth is that hardcore racism had broad support among the Western empires, and eugenics was nearly as popular in the USA and Britain as the Third Reich. We Westerners were more similar to the fascist countries than we like to admit. If you doubt me, read Winston Churchill's memoirs. He had extremely negative opinions on Africans, Australian aborigines, and Iraqis. On the other hand, Churchill was extremely fond of chemical warfare.

Right. Understood, as above.

In this RP, racism has no support in Cambria and genocide will not go unaddressed.

[Lenyo]

In this RP, racism has no support in Cambria and genocide will not go unaddressed.

In this RP the United Kingdom of Cambria conquered the British Isles, Australia, Canada, the Ivory Coast, Jamaica, and part of Egypt... because they think all races are equal and therefore deserve complete respect? In the 19th century? That's ludicrous. That makes Trace's total religious utopia (also somehow in the 19th century) seem possible in comparison. This is the historical era of the civilizing mission, the white man's burden, and genocides strongly motivated by racist Malthusianism. The cataclysmic decline of native populations in the USA, Algeria, and India were as much caused by warfare and deliberate starvation as they were by unplanned plagues.

Your empire can claim to be the freest paradise on the entire globe. (France, of course, goes on and on about liberty and republics.) But global transoceanic empires aren't inspired by respect for all humankind. They're fueled by bigotry and hatred, especially in an era before the massive, global, anticolonial movement after World War Two.

I tip my hat to RPers like Quendi and Zionatra who clearly put effort into understanding the historical climate. And despite the bizarre nature of this alternative history, I really appreciate attempts to have roleplayed nations vaguely, vaguely resemble actual history.

[Tracian Empire]

In this RP, racism has no support in Cambria and genocide will not go unaddressed.

In this RP the United Kingdom of Cambria conquered the British Isles, Australia, Canada, the Ivory Coast, Jamaica, and part of Egypt... because they think all races are equal and therefore deserve complete respect? In the 19th century? That's ludicrous. That makes Trace's total religious utopia (also somehow in the 19th century) seem possible in comparison. This is the historical era of the civilizing mission, the white man's burden, and genocides strongly motivated by racist Malthusianism. The cataclysmic decline of native populations in the USA, Algeria, and India were as much caused by warfare and deliberate starvation as they were by unplanned plagues.

Your empire can claim to be the freest paradise on the entire globe. (France, of course, goes on and on about liberty and republics.) But global transoceanic empires aren't inspired by respect for all humankind. They're fueled by bigotry and hatred, especially in an era before the massive, global, anticolonial movement after World War Two.

I tip my hat to RPers like Quendi and Zionatra who clearly put effort into understanding the historical climate. And despite the bizarre nature of this alternative history, I really appreciate attempts to have roleplayed nations vaguely, vaguely resemble actual history.

It's not an utopia, since even if religious freedom exists, that doesn't mean that the Orthodox Church isn't trying to expand. Religions that contradict the Imperial Authority are discriminated against. Still, Rome isn't aggressive, and it's going by the thing that being a Roman citizen is more important than the religion. It's a policy that has been enforced by many Roman Emperors throughout real life history. There have been many empires throughout the human history with religious freedom, the earliest example probably being the Persian Empire.

[Lenyo]

It's not an utopia, since even if religious freedom exists, that doesn't mean that the Orthodox Church isn't trying to expand. Religions that contradict the Imperial Authority are discriminated against. Still, Rome isn't aggressive, and it's going by the thing that being a Roman citizen is more important than the religion. It's a policy that has been enforced by many Roman Emperors throughout real life history. There have been many empires throughout the human history with religious freedom, the earliest example probably being the Persian Empire.

That's why I usually don't complain about your religious RP. France and Imperium both guarantee freedom of religion, and in both countries the religious majorities live easier lives. That's very realistic.

As for Roman citizenship, the nineteenth century and the first century were utterly different. The 80 AD Roman Empire was far less racist than the 1880 AD British, American, French, German, Belgian, Italian, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, and Russian Empires. The 19th century was the age of race theory, ethnic nationalism, and eugenics. Hence the Imperium's racial policies are anachronistic. That's OK as long as you RP the Imperium as an anachronism. You can have out-of-date societal ideals as long as you also have out-of-date economic and military technology. After all, ideas are also technologies.

[Tracian Empire]

It's not an utopia, since even if religious freedom exists, that doesn't mean that the Orthodox Church isn't trying to expand. Religions that contradict the Imperial Authority are discriminated against. Still, Rome isn't aggressive, and it's going by the thing that being a Roman citizen is more important than the religion. It's a policy that has been enforced by many Roman Emperors throughout real life history. There have been many empires throughout the human history with religious freedom, the earliest example probably being the Persian Empire.

That's why I usually don't complain about your religious RP. France and Imperium both guarantee freedom of religion, and in both countries the religious majorities live easier lives. That's very realistic.

As for Roman citizenship, the nineteenth century and the first century were utterly different. The 80 AD Roman Empire was far less racist than the 1880 AD British, American, French, German, Belgian, Italian, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, and Russian Empires. The 19th century was the age of race theory, ethnic nationalism, and eugenics. Hence the Imperium's racial policies are anachronistic. That's OK as long as you RP the Imperium as an anachronism. You can have out-of-date societal ideals as long as you also have out-of-date economic and military technology. After all, ideas are also technologies.

The main problem with the Imperium's race policies is that, a Roman race doesn't exist. The Romans are practically formed by any person that at a certain point choose to speak Latin and be a Roman. There are Mediterraneans, Slavs, Nordics, Middle Eastern people, the Romans are a mix-up of people. So that's why, as long as its citizens claim to be Roman, speak Roman, and follow the Roman ideals, the Imperium isn't racist. It also tries to slowly but surely romanize its population.

The Roman Empire is indeed a little bit behind at many points, but I'm also expecting the racist ideals of the West to not have really influenced the Roman Empire, after all, the Imperium was fairly isolationist.

The Imperium also has nationalistic ideals, but it's more focused on the ideal of the Roman citizen, not necessarily on the race.

[Cymrea]

In this RP the United Kingdom of Cambria conquered the British Isles, Australia, Canada, the Ivory Coast, Jamaica, and part of Egypt... because they think all races are equal and therefore deserve complete respect? In the 19th century? That's ludicrous.

No, not because Cambria thinks all races are equal and therefore deserve complete respect. Because Cambria wants to maintain a global economic empire. The two are not mutually exclusive.

That makes Trace's total religious utopia (also somehow in the 19th century) seem possible in comparison. This is the historical era of the civilizing mission, the white man's burden, and genocides strongly motivated by racist Malthusianism. The cataclysmic decline of native populations in the USA, Algeria, and India were as much caused by warfare and deliberate starvation as they were by unplanned plagues.

The historical era, not necessarily the alternate history. I've deviated the British history rather significantly because I want a pagan Britain where religion and race are not persecuted.

Your empire can claim to be the freest paradise on the entire globe. (France, of course, goes on and on about liberty and republics.) But global transoceanic empires aren't inspired by respect for all humankind. They're fueled by bigotry and hatred, especially in an era before the massive, global, anticolonial movement after World War Two.

In real life, sure. I choose differently.

I tip my hat to RPers like Quendi and Zionatra who clearly put effort into understanding the historical climate. And despite the bizarre nature of this alternative history, I really appreciate attempts to have roleplayed nations vaguely, vaguely resemble actual history.

Noted.

[Lenyo]

The historical era, not necessarily the alternate history. I've deviated the British history rather significantly because I want a pagan Britain where religion and race are not persecuted.

That's going to make for some unusual diplomatic meetings where the UK has 21st century ideals of tolerance while France is transparently racist.

Sorry about going off the rails two hours ago. That was extremely rude of me.

[Lenyo]

The main problem with the Imperium's race policies is that, a Roman race doesn't exist. The Romans are practically formed by any person that at a certain point choose to speak Latin and be a Roman. There are Mediterraneans, Slavs, Nordics, Middle Eastern people, the Romans are a mix-up of people. So that's why, as long as its citizens claim to be Roman, speak Roman, and follow the Roman ideals, the Imperium isn't racist. It also tries to slowly but surely romanize its population.

The Roman Empire is indeed a little bit behind at many points, but I'm also expecting the racist ideals of the West to not have really influenced the Roman Empire, after all, the Imperium was fairly isolationist.

The Imperium also has nationalistic ideals, but it's more focused on the ideal of the Roman citizen, not necessarily on the race.

That's cool, civic nationalism is absolutely a historical phenomenon. France and the USA are officially civic nationalist, even if there's usually some ethnic nationalism hidden within said patriotism.

Though since Imperium has a civilizing mission guiding its national policy, I imagine there are regions within the Imperium that are less interested in adopting Latin and Roman customs. There's plenty of potential there for tension between subjugated peoples and the state. Food for thought

[Tracian Empire]

The main problem with the Imperium's race policies is that, a Roman race doesn't exist. The Romans are practically formed by any person that at a certain point choose to speak Latin and be a Roman. There are Mediterraneans, Slavs, Nordics, Middle Eastern people, the Romans are a mix-up of people. So that's why, as long as its citizens claim to be Roman, speak Roman, and follow the Roman ideals, the Imperium isn't racist. It also tries to slowly but surely romanize its population.

The Roman Empire is indeed a little bit behind at many points, but I'm also expecting the racist ideals of the West to not have really influenced the Roman Empire, after all, the Imperium was fairly isolationist.

The Imperium also has nationalistic ideals, but it's more focused on the ideal of the Roman citizen, not necessarily on the race.

That's cool, civic nationalism is absolutely a historical phenomenon. France and the USA are officially civic nationalist, even if there's usually some ethnic nationalism hidden within said patriotism.

Though since Imperium has a civilizing mission guiding its national policy, I imagine there are regions within the Imperium that are less interested in adopting Latin and Roman customs. There's plenty of potential there for tension between subjugated peoples and the state. Food for thought

As of now, Mesopotamia and possibly Libya are somewhat opposing, but considering the poor state they were when the Imperium, and the way the Imperium is working at civilizing them isn't making them that of a bad guys. In general though, those two provinces are kept under a strict control by the Exercitus.

[Cymrea]

The historical era, not necessarily the alternate history. I've deviated the British history rather significantly because I want a pagan Britain where religion and race are not persecuted.

That's going to make for some unusual diplomatic meetings where the UK has 21st century ideals of tolerance while France is transparently racist.

Sorry about going off the rails two hours ago. That was extremely rude of me.

No worries, we all have our passions.

Unusual diplomatic meetings is probably right. So long as you're not killing your people for their race or religion.

[Lenyo]

That's going to make for some unusual diplomatic meetings where the UK has 21st century ideals of tolerance while France is transparently racist.

Sorry about going off the rails two hours ago. That was extremely rude of me.

No worries, we all have our passions.

Unusual diplomatic meetings is probably right. So long as you're not killing your people for their race or religion.

Not officially, anyways. Sure, France is willing to kill any number of people to conquer North Africa, and for some reason the French political elite is 100% white and 100% male, but that doesn't mean we have any bigotries!

[Cymrea]

No worries, we all have our passions.

Unusual diplomatic meetings is probably right. So long as you're not killing your people for their race or religion.

Not officially, anyways. Sure, France is willing to kill any number of people to conquer North Africa, and for some reason the French political elite is 100% white and 100% male, but that doesn't mean we have any bigotries!

North Africans that fight back, right? Not just slaughtered?

[Lenyo]

Not officially, anyways. Sure, France is willing to kill any number of people to conquer North Africa, and for some reason the French political elite is 100% white and 100% male, but that doesn't mean we have any bigotries!

North Africans that fight back, right? Not just slaughtered?

Oh, they definitely fought back. But in order to control the nomadic groups found throughout much of North Africa, France deliberately looted food and water supplies in over to starve the indigenous populations into submission. You can see how this tactic (razzia) had enormous genocidal potential. So French conquest wasn't a straightforward genocide like 1940's Germany, but if you resisted the French Army, there was absolutely no guarantee you or your clan would survive. Also when you're starving, you are a lot more vulnerable to disease and less able to fight back.

[Cymrea]

North Africans that fight back, right? Not just slaughtered?

Oh, they definitely fought back. But in order to control the nomadic groups found throughout much of North Africa, France deliberately looted food and water supplies in over to starve the indigenous populations into submission. You can see how this tactic (razzia) had enormous genocidal potential. So French conquest wasn't a straightforward genocide like 1940's Germany, but if you resisted the French Army, there was absolutely no guarantee you or your clan would survive. Also when you're starving, you are a lot more vulnerable to disease and less able to fight back.

It may seem hypocritical, but in Cambria's view, war is a different circumstance.

[Zionatra]

North Africans that fight back, right? Not just slaughtered?

Oh, they definitely fought back. But in order to control the nomadic groups found throughout much of North Africa, France deliberately looted food and water supplies in over to starve the indigenous populations into submission. You can see how this tactic (razzia) had enormous genocidal potential. So French conquest wasn't a straightforward genocide like 1940's Germany, but if you resisted the French Army, there was absolutely no guarantee you or your clan would survive. Also when you're starving, you are a lot more vulnerable to disease and less able to fight back.

Thats similar to how the vast majority of muslims are dealt with. The slums have almost no access to food and water. It is sort of like the Israelite government is coaxing them into resistance. Which they honestly are. Only enough food for around 75% of the population to survive, only enough water for less. My next IC post will detail how the slums are turning into a hell hole that is actually worse than the prisons. In the prisons they try and keep their workers in good health for the most part.

Also Lenyo have you seen the movie Papillon? The French colonial prison system depicted in the movie is sort of inspiration for the prisons I am using.

[Zionatra]

Cuprum why are you mentioning the third french republic if we are only on the second?