The Historical RP Group HQ 3

[Finland SSR]

http://www.15min.lt/images/photos/61621 ... bc378e.jpg

shit son well fug yuo i have a stronker army

shit

commit sabotage

good luck getting your toilets unplugged when all plumbers are the enemy

[Caltarania]

shit son well fug yuo i have a stronker army

shit

commit sabotage

good luck getting your toilets unplugged when all plumbers are the enemy

jokes on you our plumbers are poles not lithuanians

[Reatra]

gib rps

Look in muh sig.


I usually don't like post-1900 RPs, but this is fun.

[Caltarania]

gib rps

Look in muh sig.


I usually don't like post-1900 RPs, but this is fun.

merh

[Finland SSR]

gib rps

Look in muh sig.


I usually don't like post-1900 RPs, but this is fun.

>playing with newbies
>no trying to diplo-annex RP

Step up your game, RyRy.

[Narintia]

I will diploannex Lithuania in a second (eu4)

lel kurland op

[Reatra]

Look in muh sig.


I usually don't like post-1900 RPs, but this is fun.

>playing with newbies
>no trying to diplo-annex RP

Step up your game, RyRy.

Imma slowly integrate them into the HRPGHQ because I am a good citizen.

[Finland SSR]

I will diploannex Lithuania in a second (eu4)

lel kurland op

http://i.imgur.com/d0J7lvuh.jpg

[Narintia]

Prussia: Hey Brandenburg, what does the ledger say about his army size?
Brandenburg: It's over 9,000!!!
Prussia: What 9,000, theres no way that can be right!

[Elepis]

How about this for an rp, set in 1400 in a world where the Mongol's and Tamerlane didn't happen, so Rum will be a thing instead of the Ottomans, Iran would still be populated and powerful, China would still be split between four kingdoms and the world would look more like this than RL 1400?

No Mongols = More people = More killing

[Reatra]

How about this for an rp, set in 1400 in a world where the Mongol's and Tamerlane didn't happen, so Rum will be a thing instead of the Ottomans, Iran would still be populated and powerful, China would still be split between four kingdoms and the world would look more like this than RL 1400?

No Mongols = More people = More killing

China probably would be a new dynasty or something. In fact likely the only great power. The Song were doing some crazy shit in terms of economy, but their military sucked. If the Mongols didn't come in and wreck them they probably would have some sort of mass production of weapons and tools and things and having Asia as a tributary state. Using coal for manufactories and industrial blast furnaces and such.

[Finland SSR]

How about this for an rp, set in 1400 in a world where the Mongol's and Tamerlane didn't happen, so Rum will be a thing instead of the Ottomans, Iran would still be populated and powerful, China would still be split between four kingdoms and the world would look more like this than RL 1400?

No Mongols = More people = More killing

China probably would be a new dynasty or something. In fact likely the only great power. The Song were doing some crazy shit in terms of economy, but their military sucked. If the Mongols didn't come in and wreck them they probably would have some sort of mass production of weapons and tools and things and having Asia as a tributary state. Using coal for manufactories and industrial blast furnaces and such.

Or they just fall down because the world was not yet prepared for an IR 500 years early.

[Reatra]

China probably would be a new dynasty or something. In fact likely the only great power. The Song were doing some crazy shit in terms of economy, but their military sucked. If the Mongols didn't come in and wreck them they probably would have some sort of mass production of weapons and tools and things and having Asia as a tributary state. Using coal for manufactories and industrial blast furnaces and such.

Or they just fall down because the world was not yet prepared for an IR 500 years early.

Difference between Industrial Revolution (which is possible but probably not what he wants for an RP) and industry.

[Finland SSR]

Or they just fall down because the world was not yet prepared for an IR 500 years early.

Difference between Industrial Revolution (which is possible but probably not what he wants for an RP) and industry.

I dunno, I kinda felt like you implied the former.

[Reatra]

Difference between Industrial Revolution (which is possible but probably not what he wants for an RP) and industry.

I dunno, I kinda felt like you implied the former.

Oh shit


But what if the Chinese warring states split up and are now competitive for a techbolgical edge like before.

[Senkaku]

How about this for an rp, set in 1400 in a world where the Mongol's and Tamerlane didn't happen, so Rum will be a thing instead of the Ottomans, Iran would still be populated and powerful, China would still be split between four kingdoms and the world would look more like this than RL 1400?

No Mongols = More people = More killing

Sans Mongols, you would leave the Song dynasty in power on the brink of the Industrial Revolution. Meaning China would probably end up taking over a very large piece of the Earth.

China probably would be a new dynasty or something. In fact likely the only great power. The Song were doing some crazy shit in terms of economy, but their military sucked. If the Mongols didn't come in and wreck them they probably would have some sort of mass production of weapons and tools and things and having Asia as a tributary state. Using coal for manufactories and industrial blast furnaces and such.

Or they just fall down because the world was not yet prepared for an IR 500 years early.

That's not really how it would work. The rest of the world would not be ready, yes. Therefore China would have a pretty easy time conquering everything between the Caspian and Lake Superior, or at least building a very extensive empire in Asia.
I mean, the rest of the world wasn't really ready for Europe's IR, but Europe didn't "fall down".

[Finland SSR]

Or they just fall down because the world was not yet prepared for an IR 500 years early.

Exactly. The rest of the world would not be ready. China would have a pretty easy time conquering everything between the Caspian and Lake Superior.

I ALREADY NOMINATED YOU WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

If you are not aware, the Industrial Revolution is more than just building a bunch of factories.

[Senkaku]

Exactly. The rest of the world would not be ready. China would have a pretty easy time conquering everything between the Caspian and Lake Superior.

I ALREADY NOMINATED YOU WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

If you are not aware, the Industrial Revolution is more than just building a bunch of factories.

I am aware of this. Song dynasty China was on the brink of an industrial revolution on the eve of the Mongol invasion. Had it occurred, a lot more of Asia would be Chinese right now, and possibly a lot more of the entire world.

[Finland SSR]

I ALREADY NOMINATED YOU WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

If you are not aware, the Industrial Revolution is more than just building a bunch of factories.

I am aware of this. Song dynasty China was on the brink of an industrial revolution on the eve of the Mongol invasion. Had it occurred, a lot more of Asia would be Chinese right now, and possibly a lot more of the entire world.

The Industrial Revolution wasn't on the brink in Song China. They were close, and if they survived all the way until the, say, 14th century, then I could see it, but it was not immediate.

What China lacked at the time was the scientific method. There were developments in empirical calculations and standardization, but it was cut off by the Mongols.

If you gave them time, yes. Maybe. Who knows. The IR was a very complicated event with all kinds of causes.

[Senkaku]

I am aware of this. Song dynasty China was on the brink of an industrial revolution on the eve of the Mongol invasion. Had it occurred, a lot more of Asia would be Chinese right now, and possibly a lot more of the entire world.

The Industrial Revolution wasn't on the brink in Song China. They were close, and if they survived all the way until the, say, 14th century, then I could see it, but it was not immediate.

What China lacked at the time was the scientific method. There were developments in empirical calculations and standardization, but it was cut off by the Mongols.

If you gave them time, yes. Maybe. Who knows. The IR was a very complicated event with all kinds of causes.

Based on pretty much everything here, I'm gonna have to disagree. The scientific method, as you say, was close, as they standardized everything and began doing more empirical calculations, and China had plenty of brilliant people to make breakthroughs. Even without the scientific method, though, they were making huge advances. Without the Mongols (and, to be fair, the Jurchen) smashing everything to pieces, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that the trend wouldn't have continued. The Jurchen caused damage too, but even so, Southern Song was doing quite nicely for itself.


I have to go get ready to go to my lifeguarding course for the next ten fucking hours. :|

[Reatra]

So I read appendix B or C for 1491 and it's crazy how the Inka(hue) used the Khipu. It was like a 3D writing system, closer to computer code to writing, because of the several binary yes/no choices made. Apparently much of the information was delivered before they looked at the actual knots.

Like Chinese, where the text doesn't represent speech per se, but even more abstract. Imagine if they had had another half century to continue developing that? Because the Inka were the ones where khipu turned into an actual system for communicating more than just numbers. That happened in only a century, imagine in five.

Shit I wanna RP where the New World is transported back in time a thousand years now.

[Reatra]

And here's some more info for those as obsessed as me.

[Finland SSR]

The Industrial Revolution wasn't on the brink in Song China. They were close, and if they survived all the way until the, say, 14th century, then I could see it, but it was not immediate.

What China lacked at the time was the scientific method. There were developments in empirical calculations and standardization, but it was cut off by the Mongols.

If you gave them time, yes. Maybe. Who knows. The IR was a very complicated event with all kinds of causes.

Based on pretty much everything here, I'm gonna have to disagree. The scientific method, as you say, was close, as they standardized everything and began doing more empirical calculations, and China had plenty of brilliant people to make breakthroughs. Even without the scientific method, though, they were making huge advances. Without the Mongols (and, to be fair, the Jurchen) smashing everything to pieces, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that the trend wouldn't have continued. The Jurchen caused damage too, but even so, Southern Song was doing quite nicely for itself.


I have to go get ready to go to my lifeguarding course for the next ten fucking hours. :|

Disagree on what? We both agree that they did not have the scientific method. China had great scholars and Shen Kuo, but their research was non-systematic and alchemical in nature. That doesn't cut it for something as big as the IR.

As for the Jurchen, don't underestimate them. The sack of Kaifeng alone brought heavy damage to the Song and their economy.

We should also note Confucianism, the conservative bureaucracy (Wang Anshi's reforms were quite effectively blocked by the conservatives in court, for example) and the infamous high-level equilibrium trap, which I know people here hate, but we have to consider it.

[Senkaku]

Based on pretty much everything here, I'm gonna have to disagree. The scientific method, as you say, was close, as they standardized everything and began doing more empirical calculations, and China had plenty of brilliant people to make breakthroughs. Even without the scientific method, though, they were making huge advances. Without the Mongols (and, to be fair, the Jurchen) smashing everything to pieces, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that the trend wouldn't have continued. The Jurchen caused damage too, but even so, Southern Song was doing quite nicely for itself.


I have to go get ready to go to my lifeguarding course for the next ten fucking hours. :|

Disagree on what? We both agree that they did not have the scientific method. China had great scholars and Shen Kuo, but their research was non-systematic and alchemical in nature. That doesn't cut it for something as big as the IR.

As for the Jurchen, don't underestimate them. The sack of Kaifeng alone brought heavy damage to the Song and their economy.

We should also note Confucianism, the conservative bureaucracy (Wang Anshi's reforms were quite effectively blocked by the conservatives in court, for example) and the infamous high-level equilibrium trap, which I know people here hate, but we have to consider it.

1. It did cut it for Europe. You think the first factories and steel furnaces got built on the scientific method? I'd say that that came after things started getting going.
2. Jurchens did plenty of damage, but the Southern Song recovered pretty well (until the Mongols). I expect with rifles, the Jurchens would've been off the North China Plain quickly enough. However, that could be an option for the RP to explain why China didn't conquer the whole world. The Jurchens could've gotten Song tech, and conquered Manchuria and Mongolia and Korea and such, while the Southern Song took over Indochina and the Philippines, or something along those lines.
3. Confucianism is not something that holds a society back somehow, any more than any other philosophy or religion, and I find it irritating when you mention it. The bureaucracy is hardly an impediment, they were giving incentives people to do things that benefited the Song economy and grew industrial output. The high-level equilibrium trap did not, in fact, actually exist, so I think we can discount that, despite all the long fancy words.

Additionally, the high-level equilibrium trap is developed specifically regarding late imperial China, like the Ming and Qing. Elvin's theory completely fails to account for the Mongol invasions, the turmoil of the rise of the Ming, the Ming's policies (the Hongwu Emperor literally built his dynasty to last forever on a self-sustaining class of peasant soldiers toiling in the fields, although the Yongle Emperor broke the model somewhat), and the turmoil of the enormous fucking invasion in 1644, followed by the turmoil of late Qing.

[Elepis]

Ah, I had forgotten about super-Song which might put a spanner in the gears on any rp, but still, interesting to think about what would have happened without the Mongols . Maybe the southern Song may have created a huge empire in Asia. Or maybe they wouldn't have done it, the Song were non terribly militaristic so maybe they would have just sat in Hongwu with loads of steampunk tech .
Or perhaps a technologically superior China would have ripped itself apart in wars between industrial Song/Jin/Dali/ Xi Xia. These kingdoms could have advanced at the same time as well.