2055: Ain't What it Used to Be[OOC/REBOOT/MANY NATIONS OPEN]

[Protector Galactics]

Where do they even get water?

Desalination, I'm guessing. California is bright enough for decent-ish solar power, which they can then use for seawater desalination.

Of course, solar power => seawater desalination is ridiculously expensive, but I don't see a viable alternative that they can pull off.

Guys, I'm leaving for a trip tomorrow to Colorado. I will have no wifi or cell until Monday. See you all then!

Speaking of Colorado.... What if we enlarge the canals from the Colorado River. Their is tons of snow in the Rockies that melts straight to the river. If California just use's their money legitimately, they can grow their water Supply from the Colorado. Unless the U.S puts a dam to the river......

[New Rnclave]

Desalination, I'm guessing. California is bright enough for decent-ish solar power, which they can then use for seawater desalination.

Of course, solar power => seawater desalination is ridiculously expensive, but I don't see a viable alternative that they can pull off.

Guys, I'm leaving for a trip tomorrow to Colorado. I will have no wifi or cell until Monday. See you all then!

Speaking of Colorado.... What if we enlarge the canals from the Colorado River. Their is tons of snow in the Rockies that melts straight to the river. If California just use's their money legitimately, they can grow their water Supply from the Colorado. Unless the U.S puts a dam to the river......

The Second Republic could probably help with that, but right now our biggest concern is upgrading and expanding our infastructure

[Plzen]

So how do you guys like my new secret weapons program (among other things) in Svalbard?

Automatkarbin 7. Bofors 375mm. Look forward to them.

Also, Nordic States can into biochemical weapons?

[Zelent]

So how do you guys like my new secret weapons program (among other things) in Svalbard?

Automatkarbin 7. Bofors 375mm. Look forward to them.

Also, Nordic States can into biochemical weapons?

Sounds like Germanies going to have to do some ass stompin and a bit of ass kickin with some bacon eatin on the side fallowed by a bit more ass kickin.

[Reatra]

RNCLAVE

[Plzen]

Sounds like Germanies going to have to do some ass stompin and a bit of ass kickin with some bacon eatin on the side fallowed by a bit more ass kickin.

Guess who sells you almost all of your iron and aluminium? Not to mention a bunch of other natural resources?

Yeah... chew on that problem for a while... Germany has been dependent on Swedish iron since the 1920s.

[Zelent]

Sounds like Germanies going to have to do some ass stompin and a bit of ass kickin with some bacon eatin on the side fallowed by a bit more ass kickin.

Guess who sells you almost all of your iron and aluminium? Not to mention a bunch of other natural resources?

Yeah... chew on that problem for a while... Germany has been dependent on Swedish iron since the 1920s.

Not to mention that total wars are rare in the modern world, an actual land conflict between two countries, more or less an actual physical total war between two European countries wouldnt last more then a few weeks. Not long enough really to destroy German industry from a lack of Iron.

[Plzen]

Guess who sells you almost all of your iron and aluminium? Not to mention a bunch of other natural resources?

Yeah... chew on that problem for a while... Germany has been dependent on Swedish iron since the 1920s.

aaaand you fuel the spacecraft with what?

Because propellant costs, it's simply uneconomical to send a ship to Mars (or even the moon), load it up with resources, then ship them back home. You're going to be using more resources than you're getting, even using the most generous assumptions for space technology development.

A better option would be to send a colony to Mars (or the moon), make spaceships there, send it to Earth, then take the spaceships apart for metal.

Which means you're going to need a rocket industry in your target celestial body.

Good luck with that when the most advanced space program in this RP can barely afford to keep up a colony of one hundred.

[Zelent]

aaaand you fuel the spacecraft with what?

Why Hyrdrogen Fuel Cells of course. Also you bring up a very good point, Why THE MOON OF COURSE.

[Plzen]

Why Hyrdrogen Fuel Cells of course. Also you bring up a very good point, Why THE MOON OF COURSE.

(Image)

Two questions now,
1. What do you plan on charging the hydrogen fuel cells with?
2. What do you plan on using as propellant?

A round-trip to the moon is 17,000 m/s delta-v, even using aerobraking to the maximum.
The propellant efficiency of rockets is measured in effective exhaust velocity. Right now, the cutting edge in effective exhaust velocity is on the order of 4,500 m/s, which is about as good as you're going to get with cheap chemicals. Let's be really really optimistic here and assume that in 2055, engineering can build rockets with 10,500 m/s effective exhaust velocity. More than double the propellant efficiency, which means you'll have to use something really powerful as fuel. Maybe a nuclear engine.
EDIT: After some research, I think an arcjet engine would be your best bet. It's low technology that can plausibly be developed in the next few decades, it can reach a currently-unthinkable 16,000 m/s actual exhaust velocity (note: effective exhaust velocity will be lower than actual exhaust velocity), and it's technology that Germany currently has an advantage in. Unfortunately for you, it's still not good enough, as I will show below.

Plug in those numbers (17,000 m/s delta-v, 10,500 m/s effective exhaust velocity) into Tsiolkovsky's rocket equation, and you get the following result.

4.05kg of propellant for each kilogram of payload.

"Payload" includes everything that is not fuel or propellant. So things like fuel tanks, links between fuel tanks, the engine, etc. etc. Basically anything that will stay in the spaceship instead of being thrown out halfway through. Let's assume that all that is minimal, and fully three quarters of the payload can be actual cargo (this is ridiculously optimistic by today's standards). Which means,

6.73kg of stuff for each kilogram of cargo.

You are throwing seven kilograms of useful stuff - like metals, fuel, propellant, etc - into space, just so you can bring one kilogram of resources back. And that is with some really optimistic assumptions.

In other words, you are proposing to use 7kg of useful materials + the cost of making a spaceship out of those 7kg of useful materials + the logistical costs of such an operation.

And what are you bringing back? One kilogram of useful ores.

Are you quite sure you want to do that? Sounds to me like a really fast way to make your country poor.

[New Rnclave]

RNCLAVE

Yass?

[Reatra]

RNCLAVE

Yass?

YUR FLEG

[New Rnclave]

Yass?

YUR FLEG

Yass Beerus-sama the really OG

[Zelent]

Why Hyrdrogen Fuel Cells of course. Also you bring up a very good point, Why THE MOON OF COURSE.

(Image)

Two questions now,
1. What do you plan on charging the hydrogen fuel cells with?
2. What do you plan on using as propellant?

A round-trip to the moon is 17,000 m/s delta-v, even using aerobraking to the maximum.
The propellant efficiency of rockets is measured in effective exhaust velocity. Right now, the cutting edge in effective exhaust velocity is on the order of 4,500 m/s, which is about as good as you're going to get with cheap chemicals. Let's be really really optimistic here and assume that in 2055, engineering can build rockets with 10,500 m/s effective exhaust velocity. More than double the propellant efficiency, which means you'll have to use something really powerful as fuel. Maybe a nuclear engine.
EDIT: After some research, I think an arcjet engine would be your best bet. It's low technology that can plausibly be developed in the next few decades, it can reach a currently-unthinkable 16,000 m/s actual exhaust velocity (note: effective exhaust velocity will be lower than actual exhaust velocity), and it's technology that Germany currently has an advantage in. Unfortunately for you, it's still not good enough, as I will show below.

Plug in those numbers (17,000 m/s delta-v, 10,500 m/s effective exhaust velocity) into Tsiolkovsky's rocket equation, and you get the following result.

4.05kg of propellant for each kilogram of payload.

"Payload" includes everything that is not fuel or propellant. So things like fuel tanks, links between fuel tanks, the engine, etc. etc. Basically anything that will stay in the spaceship instead of being thrown out halfway through. Let's assume that all that is minimal, and fully three quarters of the payload can be actual cargo (this is ridiculously optimistic by today's standards). Which means,

6.73kg of stuff for each kilogram of cargo.

You are throwing seven kilograms of useful stuff - like metals, fuel, propellant, etc - into space, just so you can bring one kilogram of resources back. And that is with some really optimistic assumptions.

In other words, you are proposing to use 7kg of useful materials + the cost of making a spaceship out of those 7kg of useful materials + the logistical costs of such an operation.

And what are you bringing back? One kilogram of useful ores.

Are you quite sure you want to do that? Sounds to me like a really fast way to make your country poor.

Okay, Newtons Third Law of Physics says for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, propose you did cut off iron supply to Germany, how do you think that would effect your own economy? Using 2015 numbers, assuming they stayed relativley the same, Germany is Swedens,Denmarks, largest trading partner, however these countries are merely small blips on the radar for Germany. By loosing trade with Germany, you wreck your own economy as well.

[Plzen]

-snip-

State stockpiling, to keep domestic prices stable.

Costly, but not exactly economy-ruining.

[Alouite]

So damn slow.

[Zelent]

-snip-

State stockpiling, to keep domestic prices stable.

Costly, but not exactly economy-ruining.

So, if I hear you correctly, you want to stockpile supplies and then release them slowly over the course of an embargo/war?

[Ameige]

Desalination, I'm guessing. California is bright enough for decent-ish solar power, which they can then use for seawater desalination.

Of course, solar power => seawater desalination is ridiculously expensive, but I don't see a viable alternative that they can pull off.

Guys, I'm leaving for a trip tomorrow to Colorado. I will have no wifi or cell until Monday. See you all then!

Speaking of Colorado.... What if we enlarge the canals from the Colorado River. Their is tons of snow in the Rockies that melts straight to the river. If California just use's their money legitimately, they can grow their water Supply from the Colorado. Unless the U.S puts a dam to the river......

Well if your going to put a dam in colorado, bear in mind colorado has Cheyenne Mountain in it.

[New Rnclave]

State stockpiling, to keep domestic prices stable.

Costly, but not exactly economy-ruining.

So, if I hear you correctly, you want to stockpile supplies and then release them slowly over the course of an embargo/war?

Would Germany want to help America make a starship? A combat ready one?

[Plzen]

So damn slow.

Well, POOOOOOOOOST!

[Empire of Gibraltar]

What has happened with Spain, as I'm planning to join?

[Plzen]

State stockpiling, to keep domestic prices stable.

Costly, but not exactly economy-ruining.

So, if I hear you correctly, you want to stockpile supplies and then release them slowly over the course of an embargo/war?

No. That's not what I mean.

If I ever need to resource-embargo someone, that means Nordic companies can't sell natural resources to that country anymore, which means that prices might collapse, people might lose jobs, etc. etc.

To make sure the economy keeps running smoothly, if I ever resource-embargo another country, the Nordic government will buy all the resources which used to be sold to that country. As in, if I steel-embargo Germany, then the Nordic Council will buy the steel that Germany used to buy, at the price which Germany used to pay.

As I said, costly, but it keeps things running properly during an embargo.

[Plzen]

What has happened with Spain, as I'm planning to join?

Not much in terms of canon. Just "lots of bad things." You can decide most of your own history.

[New Rnclave]

What has happened with Spain, as I'm planning to join?

Catalonia and Basque are independent

[Empire of Gibraltar]

What has happened with Spain, as I'm planning to join?

Catalonia and Basque are independent

Well, *Bleep*, But the New Iberian Empire shall fix that.