1850 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][CLOSED]

[Eurasian Hegemony]

Full Nation Name :Union of the Holy Papal States and The Kingdom of Chrostendom.
Majority/Official Culture : Unspecified but most Governing is Italian even though the only distinction the government makes is between Christian and non Christian
Territorial Core : Italy, Switzerland, Malta, Crete, Tunisia, Libya, North and West Egypt, Sinai Peninsula, Israel, Lebanon
Territorial Claim : Egypt, Sudan, Arabia, Jordan, Ethiopia
Capital City : Two capitals, The side of the Papal states is Rome, and the capital of Christendom is Jerusalem
Population :28.98 million

Government Type : Dual Theocratic Monarchy
Government Ideology/Policies : Expansionist
Government Focus : Technically one of the oldest nations in Europe, At least in a national spirit sense, It has vast culture and expansive trade networks but its real strength is its military arm the backbone of which are the Templar Knights
Head of State : Pope Andrew mostly a puppet
Head of Government : King Giuseppe Angeoli II
Government Description :While technically the papal states and the Kingdom of Christendom, Rome has lost power long ago and the Catholic church itself is now no more then a part of the Kingdom.

Majority/State Religion : Roman Catholic
Religious Description :

Economic Ideologies : While there is little restriction on trade the Kingdom controls all facets of the economy
Major Production :Wine, Food, Textiles, Machined parts, metal
Economic Description : Strong but held back due to the Kingdom's restrictions on trade

Army Strength :Very well organized and centuries of tradition giving plenty of morale, experts at adapting, some have been warriors in training since they were born
Army Weakness :Relatively poorly armed, extreme focus on infantry leading to weakened cavalry and artillery, some are poorly if not almost untrained
Naval Strength :Extremely Durable "can take the beaten but keep from sinkin"
Naval Weakness :slow and poorly armed at mid range
Further Military Description :

National Goals :Build a Christian Paradise by converting the muslims and reclaiming the Whole of the Holy land
National Issues : The Kingdom need to realize the times abit better or be left behind
National Figures of Interest : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Are there any Mother Teresas or Moses that we need to know about?]] well aside from moses and mother Theresa there is the Pope and King Adolfo Angelio I and King Giuseppe Angelio I
National Ambition/Aspirations : become a world power and revolutionize culture

History :

Comparison Points – Political : 2
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious : 2
Comparison Points – Economy : 2
Comparison Points – Military : 4
Total Comparison Points used (10 Points MAX) : 10/10


A giant WIP it will take a while to do my history and military descriptions and economic description to my preference but being as I'm on my phone and its 2 am I will post this so I can get it on my computer tomorrow after work.

Also i know my claimed territory will come under fire i will fix it but i have to work in the morning so goodnight

[Oscalantine]

Errr... dammit. I did not see this...

You may need to refer to Guidance before you reapply. Israel, for instance is currently... and lore-wise... a Jewish claim.

Damn can you sen me a link so I can figure out how to fix my wip app


Edit: i read it and it says christian which is the way i will have it so may i have it as part as my nation as it really won't change anything?

Unfortunately... Claven specified that it is Jew... as in Judaism. A lot of things have changed which I haven't written due to complexity.

1) For one... Israel is still a kingdom which is controlled by Jews. It survived the Roman conquest simply because Romans never had significant influence there. As a result, the Temple of Jerusalem still stands, and as a result it is still a standing nation. Since this is what Claven meant in his guidance, I cannot give claims to anyone with exception that he/she wants to apply as alt-history Jewish nation.

2) Despite the difficulties, Muslim revolution happened, and is still a very powerful force in North Africa, lower parts of Middle East, and Central Asia (India and Indochina). While apps before Claven's statement (Viking-India and colonial nations in Indochina) are spared from this, Egypt and your African claims would be predominant Sunni group. And with such a strength... you would need something in the history section that would indicate that you have... somehow... managed to destroy powerful Muslim Sultanates for your claims to be legitimate. I dunno how you will achieve this, however.

[Tracian Empire]

And... yeah, that new app will pretty much stop my dream of having a Roman colony in Egypt. Well, I will probably have to fight for it.

[Eurasian Hegemony]

]

-snip-

Accepted Guidance - Updated 2015-07-29

Guidance Name : The Achaemenid Collapse

Guidance Description : After the death of Darius I, the throne of Persia was contested between Xerxes and his half-brother Artobarzanes, the eldest son. The two brothers competed for influence amongst the satraps, and each created his own sphere of influence. The revolts in Egypt and Babylon grew, and the two brothers rushed to suppress them. In Babylon, Xerxes actions outraged the natives and the Persians were kicked out of the city. Achaemenes, a brother of Xerxes was sent to crush the revolt in Egypt, but he later declared the independence of Egypt by making himself Pharaoh and adopting Ancient Egyptian customs. Artobarzanes, taking the opportunity, declared himself King of Babylon and led her armies to victory over a few Persian armies. Unrest erupted over the empire and soon the Hebrews, Phoenicians, Anatolians and Assyrians too declared their independence. Xerxes and his armies were unable to prevent said things from occurring and he had to be content with Persia, Media and Elam.

Thus, the Persian empire was now pushed to the east, consisting of the Iranian plateau and parts of Central Asia. For many years after, they would try without success to conquer the territories of her former empire. In many of the states, old Persian marbles became the rulers. To cement their control, they adopted the cultures and languages of their respective territories

Affected Area : Middle East, Central Asia, Egypt, and Greece (Greece because Xerxe's invasion of Greece wouldnt have happened)

Implications :

1. Alexander conquered the Middle East... Persian Empire. Regardless of this, Persia simply fell faster. In its place many kingdoms rose prior to Alexander's conquest. However, once Alexander passed away, the native kingdoms, NOT his general, replaced the power vacuum.
2. For unforeseen reason, Roman influence in the region was never that high. Many of the Middle East kingdom survived either by outlasting the empire or simply paying tribute until the Romans fell apart.
3. As a result, Jerusalem still lives, and its second temple is still intact. For all intents and purposes, the holiest place in Christian beliefs still stands tall, and is in "Christian" hands without any Muslim influence.
4. Islamic conquest still happened. Prophet Muhammad's teachings still spread from Middle East to North Africa and Central Asia. However, in the Middle East, native religions such as Zoroastrianism and others survived, worshiped by the native kingdoms which has outlasted the hostile Jihad by the Muslims.

-snip-

According to this it was christian not jewish

And for the conversion of north africa do have faith and all shall be revealed Hint hint the north africans were one of two religious identities before the expansion of islam and the guidance said islam expanded but it didn't say what happened directly after that.

[Oscalantine]

]

-snip-

Accepted Guidance - Updated 2015-07-29

Guidance Name : The Achaemenid Collapse

Guidance Description : After the death of Darius I, the throne of Persia was contested between Xerxes and his half-brother Artobarzanes, the eldest son. The two brothers competed for influence amongst the satraps, and each created his own sphere of influence. The revolts in Egypt and Babylon grew, and the two brothers rushed to suppress them. In Babylon, Xerxes actions outraged the natives and the Persians were kicked out of the city. Achaemenes, a brother of Xerxes was sent to crush the revolt in Egypt, but he later declared the independence of Egypt by making himself Pharaoh and adopting Ancient Egyptian customs. Artobarzanes, taking the opportunity, declared himself King of Babylon and led her armies to victory over a few Persian armies. Unrest erupted over the empire and soon the Hebrews, Phoenicians, Anatolians and Assyrians too declared their independence. Xerxes and his armies were unable to prevent said things from occurring and he had to be content with Persia, Media and Elam.

Thus, the Persian empire was now pushed to the east, consisting of the Iranian plateau and parts of Central Asia. For many years after, they would try without success to conquer the territories of her former empire. In many of the states, old Persian marbles became the rulers. To cement their control, they adopted the cultures and languages of their respective territories

Affected Area : Middle East, Central Asia, Egypt, and Greece (Greece because Xerxe's invasion of Greece wouldnt have happened)

Implications :

1. Alexander conquered the Middle East... Persian Empire. Regardless of this, Persia simply fell faster. In its place many kingdoms rose prior to Alexander's conquest. However, once Alexander passed away, the native kingdoms, NOT his general, replaced the power vacuum.
2. For unforeseen reason, Roman influence in the region was never that high. Many of the Middle East kingdom survived either by outlasting the empire or simply paying tribute until the Romans fell apart.
3. As a result, Jerusalem still lives, and its second temple is still intact. For all intents and purposes, the holiest place in Christian beliefs still stands tall, and is in "Christian" hands without any Muslim influence.
4. Islamic conquest still happened. Prophet Muhammad's teachings still spread from Middle East to North Africa and Central Asia. However, in the Middle East, native religions such as Zoroastrianism and others survived, worshiped by the native kingdoms which has outlasted the hostile Jihad by the Muslims.

-snip-

According to this it was christian not jewish

And for the conversion of north africa do have faith and all shall be revealed Hint hint the north africans were one of two religious identities before the expansion of islam and the guidance said islam expanded but it didn't say what happened directly after that.

I will have to fix that. I probably uploaded the wrong version of the implications rather than me trying to give you hard time ^^;;;

[Oscalantine]

And... yeah, that new app will pretty much stop my dream of having a Roman colony in Egypt. Well, I will probably have to fight for it.

I am really and current sincerely wondering if I should give any more of Africa due to Scramble for Africa event. Plus, if anything, I still think that Roman Empire would be able to colonize to the Africa from ship route if they finish westernizing. I mean... other nations farther away from you have achieved it... so I really see why not XDD

[Eurasian Hegemony]

According to this it was christian not jewish

And for the conversion of north africa do have faith and all shall be revealed Hint hint the north africans were one of two religious identities before the expansion of islam and the guidance said islam expanded but it didn't say what happened directly after that.

I will have to fix that. I probably uploaded the wrong version of the implications rather than me trying to give you hard time ^^;;;

So which is correct?

[Tracian Empire]

And... yeah, that new app will pretty much stop my dream of having a Roman colony in Egypt. Well, I will probably have to fight for it.

I am really and current sincerely wondering if I should give any more of Africa due to Scramble for Africa event. Plus, if anything, I still think that Roman Empire would be able to colonize to the Africa from ship route if they finish westernizing. I mean... other nations farther away from you have achieved it... so I really see why not XDD

Well, Egypt would be perfect as a first Roman colony. They are near, and it's easy to get there from Roman territory. Plus, if a Roman vasal state existed there for a while( I don't know what the implications of this new app will be), the Romans could still have a certain degree of influence there, unlike in the rest of Africa.

[Oscalantine]

I will have to fix that. I probably uploaded the wrong version of the implications rather than me trying to give you hard time ^^;;;

So which is correct?

What I said. Both parts are correct, in that North Africa is very much Muslim and it must stay that way when apps are made.

Of course, you could always simply go on a crusade afterwards. Papal state controlling Italian peninsula is a great idea and I think it will really help with the Catholic regions in the Europe... with Orthodox mass still standing in the east and Muslims taking Iberian Peninsula.

[Elerian]

So which is correct?

What I said. Both parts are correct, in that North Africa is very much Muslim and it must stay that way when apps are made.

Of course, you could always simply go on a crusade afterwards. Papal state controlling Italian peninsula is a great idea and I think it will really help with the Catholic regions in the Europe... with Orthodox mass still standing in the east and Muslims taking Iberian Peninsula.

By this point in time religion was far less of a motivation for major wars or crusades. Secularism was all the rave and all.

[Tracian Empire]

I don't know if I have to officially announce it, but Rome is and will always be my( the Roman Empire's) primary objective. It would be interesting to have a Papal State to fight.

[Oscalantine]

What I said. Both parts are correct, in that North Africa is very much Muslim and it must stay that way when apps are made.

Of course, you could always simply go on a crusade afterwards. Papal state controlling Italian peninsula is a great idea and I think it will really help with the Catholic regions in the Europe... with Orthodox mass still standing in the east and Muslims taking Iberian Peninsula.

By this point in time religion was far less of a motivation for major wars or crusades. Secularism was all the rave and all.

Well... yes and no.

During the 1850, the scientific progress was going on, but Europeans were still actively sending missionaries. It was just that crusades really turned into conversion in the colonial region rather than open arms to kill the heretics.

But... you are correct in that violent crusade was simply not viable due to secular governments (I mean secular as in non-papal-controlled) and simply strength of the Ottomans. In our timeline, there may be a strong pope, in which case the Catholicism with the entire Italian Peninsula is more than enough to rally support to fight against Muslims... hence another crusade. Not having Ottomans, but Roman Empire is another plus... although not having Spain but instead Muslim Andalusia is a problem... possibly even worse than the Ottomans.... but France is there as a major buffer to the Italy (whether they are secular or catholic)

[Tracian Empire]

I don't exactly want to destory the Catholicism, but more exactly, I want to unite the churches and recreate the Pentrarchy.

[Elerian]

By this point in time religion was far less of a motivation for major wars or crusades. Secularism was all the rave and all.

Well... yes and no.

During the 1850, the scientific progress was going on, but Europeans were still actively sending missionaries. It was just that crusades really turned into conversion in the colonial region rather than open arms to kill the heretics.

But... you are correct in that violent crusade was simply not viable due to secular governments (I mean secular as in non-papal-controlled) and simply strength of the Ottomans. In our timeline, there may be a strong pope, in which case the Catholicism with the entire Italian Peninsula is more than enough to rally support to fight against Muslims... hence another crusade. Not having Ottomans, but Roman Empire is another plus... although not having Spain but instead Muslim Andalusia is a problem... possibly even worse than the Ottomans.... but France is there as a major buffer to the Italy (whether they are secular or catholic)

Colonial expansion under the guise of education and the spread of their faith was essentially a clever lie, and if I'm not mistaken, not entirely state funded. The exploitation of natives was as far as I'm concerned out of greed rather than sympathy or pity.

[Oscalantine]

Well... yes and no.

During the 1850, the scientific progress was going on, but Europeans were still actively sending missionaries. It was just that crusades really turned into conversion in the colonial region rather than open arms to kill the heretics.

But... you are correct in that violent crusade was simply not viable due to secular governments (I mean secular as in non-papal-controlled) and simply strength of the Ottomans. In our timeline, there may be a strong pope, in which case the Catholicism with the entire Italian Peninsula is more than enough to rally support to fight against Muslims... hence another crusade. Not having Ottomans, but Roman Empire is another plus... although not having Spain but instead Muslim Andalusia is a problem... possibly even worse than the Ottomans.... but France is there as a major buffer to the Italy (whether they are secular or catholic)

Colonial expansion under the guise of education and the spread of their faith was essentially a clever lie, and if I'm not mistaken, not entirely state funded. The exploitation of natives was as far as I'm concerned out of greed rather than sympathy or pity.

... and crusade was not a clever lie? XDDDD
That's why I said aggressive spread of Christianity still existed. European's goal was always the exploitation of others and concentration of wealth rather than piety. Tbh, the Christianity was adapted by monarchs in the early days following Dark Ages simply to solidify the monarch's position as heaven-sent ruler for its people, rather than out of faith. Afterwards, European monarchs discarded the Pope like an used-up rag. Personally I didn't see a difference between Crusades and Colonial Conversion, simply because they are both quite much just expansionist exploitation than some kind of religious veneration.

[Elerian]

Colonial expansion under the guise of education and the spread of their faith was essentially a clever lie, and if I'm not mistaken, not entirely state funded. The exploitation of natives was as far as I'm concerned out of greed rather than sympathy or pity.

... and crusade was not a clever lie? XDDDD
That's why I said aggressive spread of Christianity still existed. European's goal was always the exploitation of others and concentration of wealth rather than piety. Tbh, the Christianity was adapted by monarchs in the early days following Dark Ages simply to solidify the monarch's position as heaven-sent ruler for its people, rather than out of faith. Afterwards, European monarchs discarded the Pope like an used-up rag. Personally I didn't see a difference between Crusades and Colonial Conversion, simply because they are both quite much just expansionist exploitation than some kind of religious veneration.

I mean, they were basically saying from the get go "Hey, fuck you guys, this is our land now" there isn't really anything to lie about.

Just about everyone was Catholic back then, but there aren't so many now. Back then if you cited God as your casus belli for an invasion then everyone else would be like "Fuck yeah!" As opposed to now when other countries would have reason to question the merit behind your casus belli. Its all about not looking like a complete prick in the eyes of your neighbors. Or, if you are openly acting like a prick, then you'd have the armies to back it up.

[Of the Quendi]

Quendi, I'm really not in the right state to get into another extended debate with you and you certainly have merit, but just know I have an over 5000 word history and am really, really not pleased to have to refit half of it to accomidate the slice off of 1/4 of my country and almost it's entire Atlantic coast for a period substantial enough to reach the Age of Colonization. It also has to do with the fact that I already have a group of Scots giving me the middle finger in the new world and aren't happy with yet another nation doing so.

I agree with to the OP's word without reservation, but suffice to say I'm frustrated with it.

But you don't have to refit anything. Thats my point. The Aechamenid POD makes every POD preceding it impossible. Instead of everyone with later POD's having to completely refit their histories we shall, in the words of the OP; "just not think about it".

[Oscalantine]

Quendi, I'm really not in the right state to get into another extended debate with you and you certainly have merit, but just know I have an over 5000 word history and am really, really not pleased to have to refit half of it to accomidate the slice off of 1/4 of my country and almost it's entire Atlantic coast for a period substantial enough to reach the Age of Colonization. It also has to do with the fact that I already have a group of Scots giving me the middle finger in the new world and aren't happy with yet another nation doing so.

I agree with to the OP's word without reservation, but suffice to say I'm frustrated with it.

But you don't have to refit anything. Thats my point. The Aechamenid POD makes every POD preceding it impossible. Instead of everyone with later POD's having to completely refit their histories we shall, in the words of the OP; "just not think about it".

Wow... this happened.

My point exactly. No one has to fix anything. In AH, we HAVE to assume some degree of paradox. That's the fun of RPs in general. If anything, we should embrace each other's paradoxes and make a better RP together.

That being said... Granadeseret, you don't have to worry about colonization. There are ALWAYS new territories. I mean... Africa is always ripe for picking, and thanks to new Guidance, colonizing North Africa got extremely hard for Christians. If anything, North Africa is just about ripe for your picking~!

[Cabana]

And... yeah, that new app will pretty much stop my dream of having a Roman colony in Egypt. Well, I will probably have to fight for it.

I am really and current sincerely wondering if I should give any more of Africa due to Scramble for Africa event. Plus, if anything, I still think that Roman Empire would be able to colonize to the Africa from ship route if they finish westernizing. I mean... other nations farther away from you have achieved it... so I really see why not XDD

Can I still conquer the rest of Southern Africa? The veldt isn't that dangerous.

[The Union of Courland]

Full Nation Name :Union of the Holy Papal States and The Kingdom of Chrostendom.
Majority/Official Culture : Unspecified but most Governing is Italian even though the only distinction the government makes is between Christian and non Christian
Territorial Core : Italy, Switzerland, Malta, Crete, Tunisia, Libya, North and West Egypt, Sinai Peninsula, Israel, Lebanon
Territorial Claim : Egypt, Sudan, Arabia, Jordan, Ethiopia
Capital City : Two capitals, The side of the Papal states is Rome, and the capital of Christendom is Jerusalem
Population :28.98 million

Government Type : Dual Theocratic Monarchy
Government Ideology/Policies : Expansionist
Government Focus : Technically one of the oldest nations in Europe, At least in a national spirit sense, It has vast culture and expansive trade networks but its real strength is its military arm the backbone of which are the Templar Knights
Head of State : Pope Andrew mostly a puppet
Head of Government : King Giuseppe Angeoli II
Government Description :While technically the papal states and the Kingdom of Christendom, Rome has lost power long ago and the Catholic church itself is now no more then a part of the Kingdom.

Majority/State Religion : Roman Catholic
Religious Description :

Economic Ideologies : While there is little restriction on trade the Kingdom controls all facets of the economy
Major Production :Wine, Food, Textiles, Machined parts, metal
Economic Description : Strong but held back due to the Kingdom's restrictions on trade

Army Strength :Very well organized and centuries of tradition giving plenty of morale, experts at adapting, some have been warriors in training since they were born
Army Weakness :Relatively poorly armed, extreme focus on infantry leading to weakened cavalry and artillery, some are poorly if not almost untrained
Naval Strength :Extremely Durable "can take the beaten but keep from sinkin"
Naval Weakness :slow and poorly armed at mid range
Further Military Description :

National Goals :Build a Christian Paradise by converting the muslims and reclaiming the Whole of the Holy land
National Issues : The Kingdom need to realize the times abit better or be left behind
National Figures of Interest : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Are there any Mother Teresas or Moses that we need to know about?]] well aside from moses and mother Theresa there is the Pope and King Adolfo Angelio I and King Giuseppe Angelio I
National Ambition/Aspirations : become a world power and revolutionize culture

History :

Comparison Points – Political : 2
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious : 2
Comparison Points – Economy : 2
Comparison Points – Military : 4
Total Comparison Points used (10 Points MAX) : 10/10


A giant WIP it will take a while to do my history and military descriptions and economic description to my preference but being as I'm on my phone and its 2 am I will post this so I can get it on my computer tomorrow after work.

Also i know my claimed territory will come under fire i will fix it but i have to work in the morning so goodnight

I would recommend removing Switzerland from your claims. The Swiss people are fiercely stubborn, and at this point just want everyone else to stop invading them and just stay neutral. Not to mention the majority of Swiss people at the time were Protestant or Calvinist, so that's even more reason to resist your rule. At the very least, I'd say you would have a hell of a time taking the country, and your would probably have revolutions popping up from time to time.

[Oscalantine]

I am really and current sincerely wondering if I should give any more of Africa due to Scramble for Africa event. Plus, if anything, I still think that Roman Empire would be able to colonize to the Africa from ship route if they finish westernizing. I mean... other nations farther away from you have achieved it... so I really see why not XDD

Can I still conquer the rest of Southern Africa? The veldt isn't that dangerous.

It really depends on one factor: have you westernized?

1) yes you westernized: then since all colonial nations are aiming for that trophy, you will be held in check until Scramble for Africa event. You can expand to the coastlines of South Africa, but otherwise you cannot get deep inside the heart of Africa

2) No you are not westernized: you are free do expand however you wish. HOWEVER, when the Scramble for Africa happens, you will be besieged from all sides and I WILL approve of your territory being taken by others. As you could think, I usually don't allow this unless both sides agree to the treaty. However, for the event, I am allowing all African territory up for grabs.

It is up to you whether you will confine yourself for a safe expansion, or gather allies and expand rapidly so that you can keep your ancestral homeland. Either way, with exception of coastlines, I am not allowing anyone to claim African mainlands until Scramble in-IC event.

[Tracian Empire]

How can you westernize?

[Oscalantine]

How can you westernize?

Actually, it is more of a lore thing than actual mechanical process. I would have to think that for our RP...
1) you claim you are western
2) you are recognized by others as western

The whole "Song Legacy" Guidance that just makes being "Eastern" same as being "Western," which would imply that you can "Easternize" just as well as you can Westernize. However, the mechanics are the same. Essentially, you claim the title, and everyone else agrees with it, you are golden.

That being said... if you used "technological inferiority" as your weakness, you better still have that or have a new source of weakness when you are at same technological feat as others. I know a lot of you have done this, so I am just going out on a wimp and making sure you folks remember ^^

[The Union of Courland]

Like this:

[Oscalantine]

Like this:
(Image)

Are we making is so that McDonald's is created in China? Someone get their guidance and make it happen!!!!!