1850 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][CLOSED]

[Western Imperial Union]

Full Nation Name : Cheng Dynasty of the Chinese Empire
Majority/Official Culture : Chinese Mongolian
Territorial Core : Ming Dynasty China excluding the territory ruled by korea and japan
Territorial Claim : northern Mongolia, S.E asia
Capital City : Nanjing
Population : 90 million

Government Type : [[Monarchy, Republic, etc.]] Monarchy
Government Ideology/Policies : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Militant, Imperialist, Expansionist, etc.]] Imperialist, Expansionist
Government Focus : [[Tell me a little bit about what is your government’s focus… be it military, economy, culture, legitimacy, etc.]] Culture
Head of State : [[highest-ranking individual in the nation according to rule of law]] Emperor Bai Cheng of the Cheng Dynasty
Head of Government : [[highest-ranking defacto ruler]] """
Government Description :Absolute monarchy made possible as the people are more concerned with the idea of defending their nation's traditions.

Majority/State Religion : [[OPTIONAL]] [[It does not have to be IRL religion]] Taoism
Religious Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

Economic Ideologies : [[Capitalism, Mercantilism, Socialism, Communism, etc.]] Socialism
Major Production : Textiles
Economic Description : very powerful due to massive workforce and vast resources

Army Strength : Massive with conscription now the norm in war time
Army Weakness : too many men too train properly and in some poorer provinces too many to arm properly
Naval Strength : strong firepower with much better grade cannons
Naval Weakness : slow and weak to enemy attack at close range
Further Military Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

National Goals : expand to mongolia and south east asia
National Issues : being technology to the outlying provinces
National Figures of Interest : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Are there any Mother Teresas or Moses that we need to know about?]]
National Ambition/Aspirations : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Not really a set objective, but rather the big picture that your nation is drawing towards]] east asian dominance

History : [[Can be in paragraph or bulletpoint timeline.]]
Picks up in 1849 when anti khanate moves into position.

More and more high ranking advisers and military staff had become chinese and so by 1949 fewer than one in seventeen nobles considered themselves khanate rather than chinese citizens. In 1949 a young ambitious man became head general of the Khan's army and began to sow the seeds of the Khanates transition. This man would later be called Bai Cheng

He eliminated Mongolian presence in the military appointing newer nationalistic Chinese in their place. Soon his army was Chinese not Khanate.

On september 5th began what would be called the september coup. Cheng led a force of 17,000 Chinese troops into the Khan's palace grounds. A short fight took place the Khan's forces were destroyed and the Khan himself captured.

While mist of the army was now chinese the Northern corps were almost exclusively mongolian. Led by the only son of the hostage khan they attacked into the now quickly fortifying chinese territory.

For the next three weeks little fighting occurred until the battle of Nanjing. While the Mongolian forces one the battle by forcing the enemy out of the city they had lost too many troops in doing so. They became surrounded and were forced to surrender.

The Khans were spared in the October Treaty of Nanjing and given governorship of mongolia to them as a vassal state of the new chinese empire.

Even though given a chance the son of the Khan fled to the northern part of the nation and seceded with what became known as the New Golden Horde. The former Khan was killed by his own son and a mongol loyal to Cheng was put in power of Southern mongolia. Soon the young northern Khan had also been killed in the fighting and North Mongolia sued for peace. The treaty of the Horse tribes brought an end to the conflict in December 1850.

By 1852 the Chinese empire has successfully consolidated and retains control of southern Mongolia, Chinese manchuria, China proper, and the eastern Ghobi.

Comparison Points – Political : [[How much national focus is gone into administrating the government, i.e. espionage, royal marriages, counter-intelligence, etc.]] 3
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious : [[How much national focus is gone into religious and or cultural aspects, i.e. asking for excommunication, call for crusade, soviet revolution in other nations, etc.]]3
Comparison Points – Economy : [[How much national focus is gone into economic matters, i.e. embargo/blockade efficiency, lasting through war of attrition, simply feeding your people better, etc.]]2
Comparison Points – Military : [[How much national focus is gone into military, i.e. discipline, morale, better tacticians/generals, etc.]] 2
Total Comparison Points used (10 Points MAX) : 10/10

Fixed

[Oscalantine]

Fixed

Awesome~!! Looking forward to having epic relations with you as Korean XDDD

Seriously, join meh, and together we shall challenge AEGIS for all they have~!

[Tracian Empire]

So, just a question.

I was thinking of trying that little trap for the pirates I talked about, the one with the ships transporting gold. It won't be anything big, since I have to wait for the Alexandria negotiations to finish.


If I do that, who would be roleplaying the pirates?

[Oscalantine]

So, just a question.

I was thinking of trying that little trap for the pirates I talked about, the one with the ships transporting gold. It won't be anything big, since I have to wait for the Alexandria negotiations to finish.


If I do that, who would be roleplaying the pirates?

The pirates would be roleplayed by yourself, much like how you would fight the NPCs.

However, at the same time, OP (that is me ^^) will be posting the result post. That will be my sort of "grading results" post on how everyone did on the event. If you have done well and your posts were good, things will go your way. However, if you did not follow the lore or your posts were inadequate (as in another random landgrab posts) then there will be something that goes wrong for you.

Say for instance that you DO what you were doing. I can tell you right now that you will succeed simply because you will be RPing against NPC. However, you may not find any clues to where the Trammel is because you burned all the pirates instead of capturing them for questioning, which could cause Trammel to be more careful in the future and or focus his attention on you, making you be put on the defensive rather than offensive.

So think carefully: your goal isn't the kill the pirates completely: that can never be done. What you should be doing instead is to make sure that you are meeting the objectives and hitting the pirates where it hurts. For that, you need to look at the lore and what is going on in the event, which will be updated in the first page under event section as the event progresses ^^

[Of the Quendi]

I assumed their were other methods of agriculture like the floating lake gardens, fishing plus a few other things, that and if methods like that were used 300+ years ago in our timeline I daresay they could have been developed more by now.

http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-farming.html has some useful info, it's a stretch but I think between this, fishing and alternative methods it's sustainable.

Quendi it does make sense as chinampas were used extensively by the aztec people. A method never used in Europe causing it to be revolutionary. These would more than tip the balance in favor of a higher population.

Chinampas are obviously an advantage but its not some miracle agriculture super thingy. A chinampa is an artificial island built on shallow lake beds. Only a tiny fraction of Mexico is shallow lake beds though. According to that link you posted Novacom we are talking about just 9,000 hectares of chinampas in the Aztec Empire before the Europeans arrived. Thats not going to make much of a difference.

The population of the Aztec Empire in 1500 hundred was actually comparable to France and Tenochtitlan was 200,000 at the time the same as paris. In rl history following spains conquest chinampas fell out of use and only the 13.11 percent of the land that is arable could be used. I am confident that with chinampas never falling out of use he could account for not double but triple that. However i think he should make his guidance about the wonders of these chinampas advancing in technology possibly finding a way to maximize the surface area and expedite their construction. I think if you change your guidance to this you could have a population of sixty million.

No way chinampas could double or triple arable land area. Almost none of Mexico is shallow lake bed. Compared to the 3,700,000 acres (1,497,336 hectares) of arable land in 1950 the 9,000 hectares of chinampas would make up an increase in arable land by less then a percentage.

Also there is no way that the population of the Aztec Empire was twenty million in 1500. The highest estimate I have ever heard was about ten million with some as low as five million.

[Oscalantine]

No way chinampas could double or triple arable land area. Almost none of Mexico is shallow lake bed. Compared to the 3,700,000 acres (1,497,336 hectares) of arable land in 1950 the 9,000 hectares of chinampas would make up an increase in arable land by less then a percentage.

Also there is no way that the population of the Aztec Empire was twenty million in 1500. The highest estimate I have ever heard was about ten million with some as low as five million.

... I don't like putting up random bursts like this... but... where did you get the estimate?

And furthermore... is population really that important to you that you are arguing 3v1 for few pages? XDDDD
I did mention before that I don't care much about population when I am tinkering with who wins and who loses. Number is NEVER a part of calculation. Suppose realism does need to play its part, but it seems that AH could have a bit of leeway here and there^^;;;

[Of the Quendi]

... I don't like putting up random bursts like this... but... where did you get the estimate?

And furthermore... is population really that important to you that you are arguing 3v1 for few pages? XDDDD
I did mention before that I don't care much about population when I am tinkering with who wins and who loses. Number is NEVER a part of calculation. Suppose realism does need to play its part, but it seems that AH could have a bit of leeway here and there^^;;;

I have already told where I get my estimates. FAOSTAT is where I have gotten my estimates on current and historic food production of Mexico. The 3,700,000 acres comes from Encyclopedia of the Nations but has been corroborated by other sources as well.

And yes population is important to me. So far I have RP'ed my nation based on the assumption that it was if not the dominant power in the Americas then certainly a dominant power, hardly an unreasonable assumption. But if Mexico has more then twice as large a population and is more industrialized then I can essentially scrape my great power foreign policy and have to come up with one more fit for a second rate power and that is rather frustrating.

[Oscalantine]

... I don't like putting up random bursts like this... but... where did you get the estimate?

And furthermore... is population really that important to you that you are arguing 3v1 for few pages? XDDDD
I did mention before that I don't care much about population when I am tinkering with who wins and who loses. Number is NEVER a part of calculation. Suppose realism does need to play its part, but it seems that AH could have a bit of leeway here and there^^;;;

I have already told where I get my estimates. FAOSTAT is where I have gotten my estimates on current and historic food production of Mexico. The 3,700,000 acres comes from Encyclopedia of the Nations but has been corroborated by other sources as well.

And yes population is important to me. So far I have RP'ed my nation based on the assumption that it was if not the dominant power in the Americas then certainly a dominant power, hardly an unreasonable assumption. But if Mexico has more then twice as large a population and is more industrialized then I can essentially scrape my great power foreign policy and have to come up with one more fit for a second rate power and that is rather frustrating.

Hmmm... ... ...

I will say this again: population has NOTHING to do with this RP. Really, mind as well as remove that section because it really is a formality that I am giving to everyone who are used to putting that there.

But I do understand your concern: large numbers sound intimidating and it DOES make you wonder if all that number may come back to haunt the RP in some way shape or form. FAOSTAT, right? I'll look at that and the population estimates and get back to you on this, and check the numbers and see whether it really makes sense from a logical point of view. I would like to remind you... probably this is a second time that we are talking about population, too... I don't even check the numbers because that's what I think of them. Even if you didn't fought for this, it wouldn't have played a huge deal in dispute settling, and I would have instantly put restrictions should Aztec tossed numbers around.

[Oscalantine]

Made a bit of comparison chart. Keep in mind that it may not be the most accurate count of provinces, since it had to be done by hand.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I thought it was much better comparison than trying to use our IRL numbers, since it shouldn't even matter in our timeline. Remember: everyone asked for it, so it isn't my fault that everyone's numbers are a bit different XDDD

Anyhow, with this, I found a few obvious flaws:

India somehow has MASSIVE population while China does not. I personally think that it may be both's fault, but I would say that China has every right to bump up the population. India... eh, I would like for 120 million to be bumped down, but if you have your reasons, I won't care.

HERE... I finally understand what everyone is getting at... or at least, what Quendi wanted to get at: Aztec has the third largest population in the RP, and yet it is nowhere NEAR the province size of China or India. Even considering guidance that is at works and national uniqueness into consideration, that is STILL too large of a population to consider.


... that's about it, really. I don't care much about what is going on with population, and I assure you, numbers mean NOTHING to me when I am discerning RPs. If you think that this somehow matters... feel free to TG me or go at it in the OOC about whose population is the strungest~!! or whatnot. Because... honestly? I don't care. Your population, your problem... and it WILL NOT FLIPPING MATTER in this RP in whatever shape or form.

[Novacom]

... I don't like putting up random bursts like this... but... where did you get the estimate?

And furthermore... is population really that important to you that you are arguing 3v1 for few pages? XDDDD
I did mention before that I don't care much about population when I am tinkering with who wins and who loses. Number is NEVER a part of calculation. Suppose realism does need to play its part, but it seems that AH could have a bit of leeway here and there^^;;;

I have already told where I get my estimates. FAOSTAT is where I have gotten my estimates on current and historic food production of Mexico. The 3,700,000 acres comes from Encyclopedia of the Nations but has been corroborated by other sources as well.

And yes population is important to me. So far I have RP'ed my nation based on the assumption that it was if not the dominant power in the Americas then certainly a dominant power, hardly an unreasonable assumption. But if Mexico has more then twice as large a population and is more industrialized then I can essentially scrape my great power foreign policy and have to come up with one more fit for a second rate power and that is rather frustrating.

I actually didn't think you were a second rate power, I presumed you were more industrialized and had a better navy (which at the moment accounts for a LOT given recent events), I don't mind scaling ot down somewhat, my problem about Guidances though is the Aztec's had a lot of unique things I could conceivably do a guidance about food production since they had their own unique methods, I could do one about education since every Aztec received an education, I could do one about loads of things but the one that made most sense to me as a point of divergence was one about health and medicine.

As an aside I tried to find out how often Maize for example is normally harvested as from what I've read up on Chinampa's could be harvested from eight times a year, and comparing lakes from then to now is a bit skewed as didn't the Spanish drain lake Texcoco and maybe others? Some of my considerations about this is when I had originally stretched down to the canal area which I'm now watching like a hawk and waiting for, as Lake Nicaragua I can see being very useful.

I don't mind being reasonable about population numbers as the numbers game isn't that important and won't become so till we end up at the world war periods, and even then we have a fair bit of growth between then and now, what I am somewhat worried about is I seem to being put in the position of I can only utilise some of what the Aztec's had yet for example Greek Fire is being hurled around without a guidance when that in itself could be one...

EDIT: Oh and are we really going to base things off of Provinces, given the map is based off of EU3 that weights everything heavily in favor of Europe and heavily against most everyone else...

[Oscalantine]

EDIT: Oh and are we really going to base things off of Provinces, given the map is based off of EU3 that weights everything heavily in favor of Europe and heavily against most everyone else...

The fudge you mean? I am giving you a perspective. When China, which has FAR more land than you, have only THIRTY more population than you when they WERE oriental tech (which is equivalent to european tech which is currently set in 1860's) for some time... there is a bit of a problem with numbers.

I said it a million times and I am willing to say a billion more times for everyone to understand: NUMBERS IN THIS RP MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is all about clever alliances, good tactics, amd general quality (not quantity) of posts. That is ALL that matters!!!

... sheesh, and this is like... about seventh time that I am saying this to the general public. I have half the mind to delete pop section of the app altogether because it serves NO purpose and has been the sole contributor of app disputes since this RP's flipping start.

[Novacom]

EDIT: Oh and are we really going to base things off of Provinces, given the map is based off of EU3 that weights everything heavily in favor of Europe and heavily against most everyone else...

The fudge you mean? I am giving you a perspective. When China, which has FAR more land than you, have only THIRTY more population than you when they WERE oriental tech (which is equivalent to european tech which is currently set in 1860's) for some time... there is a bit of a problem with numbers.

I said it a million times and I am willing to say a billion more times for everyone to understand: NUMBERS IN THIS RP MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is all about clever alliances, good tactics, amd general quality (not quantity) of posts. That is ALL that matters!!!

... sheesh, and this is like... about seventh time that I am saying this to the general public. I have half the mind to delete pop section of the app altogether because it serves NO purpose and has been the sole contributor of app disputes since this RP's flipping start.

My bad, I thought that this would give the idea that population was going to be scaling with province count, my apologies if it came across the wrong way. I meant no offence.

[Altito Asmoro]

EDIT: Oh and are we really going to base things off of Provinces, given the map is based off of EU3 that weights everything heavily in favor of Europe and heavily against most everyone else...

The fudge you mean? I am giving you a perspective. When China, which has FAR more land than you, have only THIRTY more population than you when they WERE oriental tech (which is equivalent to european tech which is currently set in 1860's) for some time... there is a bit of a problem with numbers.

I said it a million times and I am willing to say a billion more times for everyone to understand: NUMBERS IN THIS RP MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is all about clever alliances, good tactics, amd general quality (not quantity) of posts. That is ALL that matters!!!

... sheesh, and this is like... about seventh time that I am saying this to the general public. I have half the mind to delete pop section of the app altogether because it serves NO purpose and has been the sole contributor of app disputes since this RP's flipping start.

Pop is important, especially when you want to invade/defend your countries. You have to calculate how many soldiers you can raise that will not put a big dent into your economy. At the same time, population is important to calculate how many active soldiers you can have to invade a country. And to make the military more realistic in terms of numbers. Numbers are more important in countries with less technologically advanced since it means they have to raise more to compensate their lack of technology advances. Numbers are less important in Europe at 19th century since well...they are the center of technology and have better rifles, artillery, ships. African nations and Asian nations usually have outdated or obsolete ones, and a small quantity of imported weapons because of their expensive prices.

[Oscalantine]

The fudge you mean? I am giving you a perspective. When China, which has FAR more land than you, have only THIRTY more population than you when they WERE oriental tech (which is equivalent to european tech which is currently set in 1860's) for some time... there is a bit of a problem with numbers.

I said it a million times and I am willing to say a billion more times for everyone to understand: NUMBERS IN THIS RP MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is all about clever alliances, good tactics, amd general quality (not quantity) of posts. That is ALL that matters!!!

... sheesh, and this is like... about seventh time that I am saying this to the general public. I have half the mind to delete pop section of the app altogether because it serves NO purpose and has been the sole contributor of app disputes since this RP's flipping start.

Pop is important, especially when you want to invade/defend your countries. You have to calculate how many soldiers you can raise that will not put a big dent into your economy. At the same time, population is important to calculate how many active soldiers you can have to invade a country. And to make the military more realistic in terms of numbers. Numbers are more important in countries with less technologically advanced since it means they have to raise more to compensate their lack of technology advances. Numbers are less important in Europe at 19th century since well...they are the center of technology and have better rifles, artillery, ships. African nations and Asian nations usually have outdated or obsolete ones, and a small quantity of imported weapons because of their expensive prices.

Am I not this RP's keeper?

I am well aware of its importance. No offense, but shall we change this RP into mechanic-crunching game of risk? Because I have experience of making complicated number crunching games.

You want to know why I do not? Because it takes fun out of RP. We are here to roleplay, not to play a game of risk. I am terribly sorry for being blunt, but you are not going to get anywhere asking me to change my roleplay into a dull number crunching game of risk. Nope, not even a shred of numbers will mattet here.

So my answer stands as I have done several times before: if you make a magnificent post that will make Shakespeare cry, then I dont care if you pit one Rambo against billions of martians with pewpew lasers. The Rambo WILL win. ^^

[Novacom]

Out of curiosity how much care blanche do we have to RP the pirates, I've had some interesting ideas and I'm just wondering if there's any limits, it's not a mindless land grab but I think it would make for interesting story.

Agreed RP post quality > the number of graves you intend to dig after human wave charges, let the effects be RP'd not declared as arbitrary losses.

[Oscalantine]

This is tiredsome. People are poking at the very fundamental of my rule that I have always stood for. I apologize to newcomers who just got bashed by me for no reason... I am terribly sorry that you have to hear it like this. But I am intolerant of having numbers as I am tolerant of insane numbers. I consider it a great offense and an insult... and direct challenge to my role as administrator and host of this RP when you bring in numbers and say that it must matter.

So... in the future... Quendi, Altito and others... dont talk about numbers extensively. I take this very emotionally. I should not, but I have seen RPs die because of this meaningless number game... and I will not have any of it in my RP as long as I am still active ^^

[Novacom]

This is tiredsome. People are poking at the very fundamental of my rule that I have always stood for. I apologize to newcomers who just got bashed by me for no reason... I am terribly sorry that you have to hear it like this. But I am intolerant of having numbers as I am tolerant of insane numbers. I consider it a great offense and an insult... and direct challenge to my role as administrator and host of this RP when you bring in numbers and say that it must matter.

So... in the future... Quendi, Altito and others... dont talk about numbers extensively. I take this very emotionally. I should not, but I have seen RPs die because of this meaningless number game... and I will not have any of it in my RP as long as I am still active ^^

It happens, I've been on this site on and off for ten years, the numbers game for some os very important, in different ways to others, some get more concerned over seeing the potential for abuse, some simply want to not have to worry about said potential, others simply want to abuse it so hard it could be used as a weapon in itself.

Anyway back to writing about Tenochtitlan, battling pirates and about how many poor sods Bloody Mary can suffocate with her breasts

[Oscalantine]

Out of curiosity how much care blanche do we have to RP the pirates, I've had some interesting ideas and I'm just wondering if there's any limits, it's not a mindless land grab but I think it would make for interesting story.

I apologize in advance, but the rules have to be necessairly simple for me to avoid bias. If you do not follow the framework, some negativity will ensue.

That being said, it operates the same as if you were fighting against NPC: anything goes. You can do whatever you like... including landgrabs. However, if you dont tred carefully, you will be isolated for pirates retaliating solely towards you in the region, giving everyone else advantage while preventing your own advances ^^;;;

[Novacom]

Out of curiosity how much care blanche do we have to RP the pirates, I've had some interesting ideas and I'm just wondering if there's any limits, it's not a mindless land grab but I think it would make for interesting story.

I apologize in advance, but the rules have to be necessairly simple for me to avoid bias. If you do not follow the framework, some negativity will ensue.

That being said, it operates the same as if you were fighting against NPC: anything goes. You can do whatever you like... including landgrabs. However, if you dont tred carefully, you will be isolated for pirates retaliating solely towards you in the region, giving everyone else advantage while preventing your own advances ^^;;;

Oh I don't intend to go rambo, I intend to keep being subtle I was thinking more of are we free to RP them (and doing them justice of course, not a simple this man charged in on a horse his sheer awesomness rendering all the pirates motionless before he got out his gun and sword shot the pirate chief in the foot and lopped off his head saving the girl causing all the pirates to slice their own throats open before charging off into the sunset with the girl mounted in his lap.) As part of a more cloak and dagger thing, more concerned that doing multiple posts in the IC thread which has IIRC a 1 page = 2 month thing on it would be frowned upon, as I have more than a few things I want to do with this Bloody Marie, Iron Chin and more.

[Altito Asmoro]

This is tiredsome. People are poking at the very fundamental of my rule that I have always stood for. I apologize to newcomers who just got bashed by me for no reason... I am terribly sorry that you have to hear it like this. But I am intolerant of having numbers as I am tolerant of insane numbers. I consider it a great offense and an insult... and direct challenge to my role as administrator and host of this RP when you bring in numbers and say that it must matter.

So... in the future... Quendi, Altito and others... dont talk about numbers extensively. I take this very emotionally. I should not, but I have seen RPs die because of this meaningless number game... and I will not have any of it in my RP as long as I am still active ^^

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that you took the issues emotionally, I'm not being sarcastic.

[Of the Quendi]

Hmmm... ... ...

I will say this again: population has NOTHING to do with this RP. Really, mind as well as remove that section because it really is a formality that I am giving to everyone who are used to putting that there.

But I do understand your concern: large numbers sound intimidating and it DOES make you wonder if all that number may come back to haunt the RP in some way shape or form. FAOSTAT, right? I'll look at that and the population estimates and get back to you on this, and check the numbers and see whether it really makes sense from a logical point of view. I would like to remind you... probably this is a second time that we are talking about population, too... I don't even check the numbers because that's what I think of them. Even if you didn't fought for this, it wouldn't have played a huge deal in dispute settling, and I would have instantly put restrictions should Aztec tossed numbers around.

Made a bit of comparison chart. Keep in mind that it may not be the most accurate count of provinces, since it had to be done by hand.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I thought it was much better comparison than trying to use our IRL numbers, since it shouldn't even matter in our timeline. Remember: everyone asked for it, so it isn't my fault that everyone's numbers are a bit different XDDD

Anyhow, with this, I found a few obvious flaws:

India somehow has MASSIVE population while China does not. I personally think that it may be both's fault, but I would say that China has every right to bump up the population. India... eh, I would like for 120 million to be bumped down, but if you have your reasons, I won't care.

HERE... I finally understand what everyone is getting at... or at least, what Quendi wanted to get at: Aztec has the third largest population in the RP, and yet it is nowhere NEAR the province size of China or India. Even considering guidance that is at works and national uniqueness into consideration, that is STILL too large of a population to consider.


... that's about it, really. I don't care much about what is going on with population, and I assure you, numbers mean NOTHING to me when I am discerning RPs. If you think that this somehow matters... feel free to TG me or go at it in the OOC about whose population is the strungest~!! or whatnot. Because... honestly? I don't care. Your population, your problem... and it WILL NOT FLIPPING MATTER in this RP in whatever shape or form.

Surely population must matter. Its the most important factor effecting both economy and military power. A nation with a hundred million people would, roughly speaking, be a hundred times richer and able to field a hundred times as many soldiers as a nation of just one hundred people. When I determine if Brazil is going to stand up to another country I check population above all else to determine if the outcome of a conflict is likely to favor Brazil. If my numbers are much lower then the prospective enemy, bowing down is probably the better option.

Anyways. Nice chart. I have to agree with Novacom that measuring population based on the arbitrary provinces of the map is a bit silly though. One of my provinces in the interior of the Amazonas jungle is probably home to a few thousand people at the most, while a coastal one could have nearly a million, it all depends on the province in question. A better way to determine population would be to go by amount and quality of agricultural land.

As for India and China I don't think the Indian 120 million are that bad. In RL India in 1850 was home to 283,496,000 people according to Populstat. China on the other hand had 429,931,000. But in our RP China has been ruled for many many centuries by the Mongols, the world's worst imperial administrators. At the height of their RL Yuan Dynasty they couldn't even bring the Chinese population up to a hundred million. Add to that the fact that the Mongols has just been defeated and replaced by a new dynasty (dynastic changes in Chinese history usually comes with a massive death toll, the Manchu one apparently killed twenty million people).

I actually didn't think you were a second rate power, I presumed you were more industrialized and had a better navy (which at the moment accounts for a LOT given recent events), I don't mind scaling ot down somewhat, my problem about Guidances though is the Aztec's had a lot of unique things I could conceivably do a guidance about food production since they had their own unique methods, I could do one about education since every Aztec received an education, I could do one about loads of things but the one that made most sense to me as a point of divergence was one about health and medicine.

As an aside I tried to find out how often Maize for example is normally harvested as from what I've read up on Chinampa's could be harvested from eight times a year, and comparing lakes from then to now is a bit skewed as didn't the Spanish drain lake Texcoco and maybe others? Some of my considerations about this is when I had originally stretched down to the canal area which I'm now watching like a hawk and waiting for, as Lake Nicaragua I can see being very useful.

I don't mind being reasonable about population numbers as the numbers game isn't that important and won't become so till we end up at the world war periods, and even then we have a fair bit of growth between then and now, what I am somewhat worried about is I seem to being put in the position of I can only utilise some of what the Aztec's had yet for example Greek Fire is being hurled around without a guidance when that in itself could be one...

EDIT: Oh and are we really going to base things off of Provinces, given the map is based off of EU3 that weights everything heavily in favor of Europe and heavily against most everyone else...

I am moderately industrialized. In RL 1850 terms about the level of Italy I would say, ahead of Russia and the Ottoman Empire but also a far cry from British, Belgian, French or German levels. My navy is fairly strong by any standard I would say. It consists of ninety three ships-of-the-line of high quality (a fictionalized version of the Téméraire-class is the mainstay of my navy), only slightly less then what the UK fielded during the Napoleonic Wars and considerably more then France did (but a lot less then France had planned). So thats a strong navy I hope, all my military resources is devoted to the navy so I would hope to be equal or superior to almost any power. Also a guidance with health seems very obvious, thats after all the major POD of your app, that the Aztecs aren't decimated (... Or whatever its called when its not a tenth that dies but more like a tenth that survives), but I don't think having a specific guidance prevents you from doing other things as well. I have no guidance and I organize my nation as I pleases regardless.

Regarding lakes drying up I don't think the Spanish drained any lakes other then Texcoco itself. I certainly don't think there is any reason to think that Mexico was awash with lakes that has been dried up by Europeans. Lakes like Nicaragua and Chapala might provide some additional chinampas area, but still the whole of a lake cannot (to my understanding) be covered in chinampas so even with very high maize yields they aren't going to be able to feed countless millions. In fact in RL Tenochtitlan had to demand tribute in food from its vassal states to feed everyone.

This is tiredsome. People are poking at the very fundamental of my rule that I have always stood for. I apologize to newcomers who just got bashed by me for no reason... I am terribly sorry that you have to hear it like this. But I am intolerant of having numbers as I am tolerant of insane numbers. I consider it a great offense and an insult... and direct challenge to my role as administrator and host of this RP when you bring in numbers and say that it must matter.

So... in the future... Quendi, Altito and others... dont talk about numbers extensively. I take this very emotionally. I should not, but I have seen RPs die because of this meaningless number game... and I will not have any of it in my RP as long as I am still active ^^

How will we RP battles without numbers?

[Oscalantine]

Quendi, I hope this is going to be once and only time I will be saying this.

I am not going to answer that question. After all that, the emotional outburst, the apology, and the reason. You already know how I am going to grade your roleplays. At this point, from my perspective, you sound like you are continuing this conversation for the heck of it.

If not for your brilliant display of literacy and your undying attention to detail that even I could not catch, I would have just called you a troll. However, I know that you only mean well, so I am going to beg for your excuse and retreat myself from this topic.

You of all people know what I intend to do and what I have been doing. I am certain you have already came to a conclusion yourself.

[Novacom]

Let's just leave the populations as it were otherwise we'd end up attacking everyone's as some are rather low and some are rather high, if it were going to be a massive issue (and to be fair I don't think it will be as I personally don't intend to abuse things population wise) I'd revise mine down another ten million.

In a way I can't wait for this whole pirate thing to be over as trying to prevent auto correct fixing these pirate accents is a pain

Oh and Lenyo, in between that exchange between Bloody Mary and Lucian Goldknuckle there's a response for you, I made some assumptions that he'd already be in the city, and is it my imagination but does there seem to be precious little activity in the Americas, it does make things a bit harder as I assume the two North American nations would be doing something to the piracy as at present I'm going to end up the prime target simply by virtue of being the only one visibly doing something >.>

[Western Imperial Union]

Made a bit of comparison chart. Keep in mind that it may not be the most accurate count of provinces, since it had to be done by hand.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I thought it was much better comparison than trying to use our IRL numbers, since it shouldn't even matter in our timeline. Remember: everyone asked for it, so it isn't my fault that everyone's numbers are a bit different XDDD

Anyhow, with this, I found a few obvious flaws:

India somehow has MASSIVE population while China does not. I personally think that it may be both's fault, but I would say that China has every right to bump up the population. India... eh, I would like for 120 million to be bumped down, but if you have your reasons, I won't care.

HERE... I finally understand what everyone is getting at... or at least, what Quendi wanted to get at: Aztec has the third largest population in the RP, and yet it is nowhere NEAR the province size of China or India. Even considering guidance that is at works and national uniqueness into consideration, that is STILL too large of a population to consider.


... that's about it, really. I don't care much about what is going on with population, and I assure you, numbers mean NOTHING to me when I am discerning RPs. If you think that this somehow matters... feel free to TG me or go at it in the OOC about whose population is the strungest~!! or whatnot. Because... honestly? I don't care. Your population, your problem... and it WILL NOT FLIPPING MATTER in this RP in whatever shape or form.

Awesome could I up to 135 the ?

[Oscalantine]

Made a bit of comparison chart. Keep in mind that it may not be the most accurate count of provinces, since it had to be done by hand.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I thought it was much better comparison than trying to use our IRL numbers, since it shouldn't even matter in our timeline. Remember: everyone asked for it, so it isn't my fault that everyone's numbers are a bit different XDDD

Anyhow, with this, I found a few obvious flaws:

India somehow has MASSIVE population while China does not. I personally think that it may be both's fault, but I would say that China has every right to bump up the population. India... eh, I would like for 120 million to be bumped down, but if you have your reasons, I won't care.

HERE... I finally understand what everyone is getting at... or at least, what Quendi wanted to get at: Aztec has the third largest population in the RP, and yet it is nowhere NEAR the province size of China or India. Even considering guidance that is at works and national uniqueness into consideration, that is STILL too large of a population to consider.


... that's about it, really. I don't care much about what is going on with population, and I assure you, numbers mean NOTHING to me when I am discerning RPs. If you think that this somehow matters... feel free to TG me or go at it in the OOC about whose population is the strungest~!! or whatnot. Because... honestly? I don't care. Your population, your problem... and it WILL NOT FLIPPING MATTER in this RP in whatever shape or form.

Awesome could I up to 135 the ?

As of now? I really don't give much of a care. I have been spent with population nonsense.

135 seems a bit too large for a nation that is historically Yuan but stronger and better. Even with technological advances you would have, I would say that 110's or 120's would be more of a fair estimate.