1850 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][CLOSED]

[Tracian Empire]

The red walls were there for centuries. The purple walls were built in the 1400's. The black fortifications were built in the last 100 years, step by step.

Ah I see I better understand now, so the black is actually a collection o forts and smaller fortifications.

You know, modern forts, things like that. Constantinople was never conquered, we have a reputation to defend.

[Novacom]

I'm pretty sure that Russia would end up permanently excommunicated then given his stated intent, which would by it's nature if he could not subjugate you under him would likely mean him trying to be better than you which would cause divergence and eventually be regarded as a schism.

Actually I would argue that I would argue it till the cow's came home, I'd want to know why I have a minority apart from "cuz reasons," I'd want to know how it got there, how it expanded (because I'm pretty damned sure by the same virtue of "cuz reasons" it wouldn't have been allowed to die out) and finally how it existing can be reconciled with the whole apart from the french I had next to nothing to do with most of the world until fairly recently. most if not all of the other guidance's provide benefits, they don't negatively effect anybody nor impinge upon others backstories but rather enhance it, the transplant of an orthodox minority into Japan for example seems as natural and as nonsensical as human centepeding together one of every bird species going and then claiming you discovered a new species of bird...

If he wants a schism, he can have it. That doesn't mean that all the Orthodox people in Russia would be happy with it.

First of all, if you would have noticed, there are no Patriarchs for Asia and the Far East.

Then, I'm not transplanting everything. In real life, there are Orthodox minorities everywhere in the world. I don't see what the problem is.

Then, have I ever claimed in my guidance that there must be Orthodox people in your country? The Patriarchate of the Americas is the thing that exists. Not the Patriarchate of the glorious isolated Aztek people. The last time I checked, you weren't in control of the Americas.

Check your own wording it states minorities exist worldwide, so your mandating that in places that haven't even been encountered yet there exist Orthodox followers, take out that bit and it's not an issue anymore, the fact your claiming they are everywhere is the bugbear, the fact you've made it global.

[Tracian Empire]

If he wants a schism, he can have it. That doesn't mean that all the Orthodox people in Russia would be happy with it.

First of all, if you would have noticed, there are no Patriarchs for Asia and the Far East.

Then, I'm not transplanting everything. In real life, there are Orthodox minorities everywhere in the world. I don't see what the problem is.

Then, have I ever claimed in my guidance that there must be Orthodox people in your country? The Patriarchate of the Americas is the thing that exists. Not the Patriarchate of the glorious isolated Aztek people. The last time I checked, you weren't in control of the Americas.

Check your own wording it states minorities exist worldwide, so your mandating that in places that haven't even been encountered yet there exist Orthodox followers, take out that bit and it's not an issue anymore, the fact your claiming they are everywhere is the bugbear, the fact you've made it global.

Especially for you, it will be Global without the Aztecs .

[Lenyo]

Tracian, I get it that you want to lead the Orthodox Christians, and that's fine, but remember that the Orthodox aren't united. Not even the fundamentalist Russian Empire managed to unite its Christian population.

[Tracian Empire]

Tracian, I get it that you want to lead the Orthodox Christians, and that's fine, but remember that the Orthodox aren't united. Not even the fundamentalist Russian Empire managed to unite its Christian population.

The reforms I'm talking about happened in 1453, so unless Russia really wants to be against the Ecumenical Patriarchate, that thing would have never happened. Of course, I am talking only about the normal Orthodox Church, not about the Oriental Orthodox Churches or any other minorities that might not have accepted the Eighth Council.

[Lenyo]

Just remember that Christianity has split up several times.

[Tracian Empire]

Just remember that Christianity has split up several times.

Yes, but I am talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church, the second largest in the world.

[Rygondria]

Dutch player- you can't colonize Hawaii. At this point Hawaii was an independent country, the Kingdom of Hawaii, and so you would need to invade them. Even if you did, Japan and Korea would bodyslam you for it.

Ok i will edit the post.

[Of the Quendi]

To be fair my knowledge of the actual land itself is quite limited, the Aztecs arn't really covered much in the British school system (they weren't at all when I went to school about 10 years ago and that now makes me feel old) and I was going to go for an agriculture guidance but plumped for the medical one as making more sense, than saying the plagues didn't effect the Aztec's at all and nothing was gained or lost from that fact, the end.

I am not an expert in Mexican soil fertility and agriculture either but it apparently isn't stellar. Maize, the staple food of modern Mexico, production in Mexico today stand at just 22,663,953 tones in 2013 and at a mere 6,246,106 tones in 1961 during the Green Revolution according to FAOSTAT the UN's Food and Agriculture organization. Since there doesn't appear to be much production of other important foods it seems unlikely that the 1961 food production of Mexico was higher then 10-12 million tones, enough to feed around 50-60 million. So essentially for Mexico to have a population of 65-67 million in 1850 it has to match the food production 110 years into the future, to me it seems unlikely that Mexico would be able to do that with mid 19th century technology.

Their agricultural technology such as was used around modern day mexico city was revolutionary and so could have advanced with the civilization. We already had this argument with Tracians greek fire it is already accepted now stop picking a fight with everyone.

That first sentence doesn't even make sense and I am not picking a fight, I am having a polite and civil discussion with Novacom. Wheras you seem to be wanting to pick a fight with me with your rudeness and rather high-handed "because I say so" argument.

[Novacom]

To be fair my knowledge of the actual land itself is quite limited, the Aztecs arn't really covered much in the British school system (they weren't at all when I went to school about 10 years ago and that now makes me feel old) and I was going to go for an agriculture guidance but plumped for the medical one as making more sense, than saying the plagues didn't effect the Aztec's at all and nothing was gained or lost from that fact, the end.

I am not an expert in Mexican soil fertility and agriculture either but it apparently isn't stellar. Maize, the staple food of modern Mexico, production in Mexico today stand at just 22,663,953 tones in 2013 and at a mere 6,246,106 tones in 1961 during the Green Revolution according to FAOSTAT the UN's Food and Agriculture organization. Since there doesn't appear to be much production of other important foods it seems unlikely that the 1961 food production of Mexico was higher then 10-12 million tones, enough to feed around 50-60 million. So essentially for Mexico to have a population of 65-67 million in 1850 it has to match the food production 110 years into the future, to me it seems unlikely that Mexico would be able to do that with mid 19th century technology.

Their agricultural technology such as was used around modern day mexico city was revolutionary and so could have advanced with the civilization. We already had this argument with Tracians greek fire it is already accepted now stop picking a fight with everyone.

That first sentence doesn't even make sense and I am not picking a fight, I am having a polite and civil discussion with Novacom. Wheras you seem to be wanting to pick a fight with me with your rudeness and rather high-handed "because I say so" argument.

I assumed their were other methods of agriculture like the floating lake gardens, fishing plus a few other things, that and if methods like that were used 300+ years ago in our timeline I daresay they could have been developed more by now.

http://www.aztec-history.com/aztec-farming.html has some useful info, it's a stretch but I think between this, fishing and alternative methods it's sustainable.

[Second Helghan Empire]

To be fair my knowledge of the actual land itself is quite limited, the Aztecs arn't really covered much in the British school system (they weren't at all when I went to school about 10 years ago and that now makes me feel old) and I was going to go for an agriculture guidance but plumped for the medical one as making more sense, than saying the plagues didn't effect the Aztec's at all and nothing was gained or lost from that fact, the end.

I am not an expert in Mexican soil fertility and agriculture either but it apparently isn't stellar. Maize, the staple food of modern Mexico, production in Mexico today stand at just 22,663,953 tones in 2013 and at a mere 6,246,106 tones in 1961 during the Green Revolution according to FAOSTAT the UN's Food and Agriculture organization. Since there doesn't appear to be much production of other important foods it seems unlikely that the 1961 food production of Mexico was higher then 10-12 million tones, enough to feed around 50-60 million. So essentially for Mexico to have a population of 65-67 million in 1850 it has to match the food production 110 years into the future, to me it seems unlikely that Mexico would be able to do that with mid 19th century technology.

Their agricultural technology such as was used around modern day mexico city was revolutionary and so could have advanced with the civilization. We already had this argument with Tracians greek fire it is already accepted now stop picking a fight with everyone.

That first sentence doesn't even make sense and I am not picking a fight, I am having a polite and civil discussion with Novacom. Wheras you seem to be wanting to pick a fight with me with your rudeness and rather high-handed "because I say so" argument.

Quendi it does make sense as chinampas were used extensively by the aztec people. A method never used in Europe causing it to be revolutionary. These would more than tip the balance in favor of a higher population.

[Lenyo]

In the 1850's Great Britain had just started producing superphosphates, while the overwhelming majority of fertilizers were either undiscovered or not manufactured. Fertilizers really only started being a mega-industry in the twentieth century. I think it's a little too unrealistic to try to have your population so much higher than in RL, 8 million.

[Rygondria]

i have edited the post.

[Second Helghan Empire]

The population of the Aztec Empire in 1500 hundred was actually comparable to France and Tenochtitlan was 200,000 at the time the same as paris. In rl history following spains conquest chinampas fell out of use and only the 13.11 percent of the land that is arable could be used. I am confident that with chinampas never falling out of use he could account for not double but triple that. However i think he should make his guidance about the wonders of these chinampas advancing in technology possibly finding a way to maximize the surface area and expedite their construction. I think if you change your guidance to this you could have a population of sixty million.

[In Gentem Et De Libris Scientiam]

whats been happening?

[Oscalantine]

whats been happening?

Well... your China is in the process of being taken over by another person, if that's what you were wondering ^^;;;

[Western Imperial Union]

Since we're using 1860's tech now, wanna jump bump the year up to 1862? That would reduce everyone's war exhaustion to zero, build up our colonies somewhat, and most importantly we'll get closer to the all-important year 1871. I really want our RP to hit the 1870's.

XDDD

I want to keep the years going at 1852 just in case it matters. I dunno whatever would happen in 1870, but I hope it would be something epic XDDD

It practically stops all wars in the world. A coalition of European states.

I was planning to create an opposing alliance, but no one is interested.

You know? As soon as China gets back into the game, I am planning on creating an oriental alliance of convenience to counter AEGIS.... ... .. as long as China isn't big a big bully like I THINK would happen according to his app.

Even if no, if something along the lines of India + Japan + Brazil + Korea happens, it pretty much dominants every sea besides that puny European areas, making a fair fight against AEGIS. It is still in the works, however, and it sounds pretty epic to have an opposing alliance.

Mainly doing this because Korea was never invited to AEGIS despite being friendly with France AND Cambria. T^T. They shalt rue the day that they thought Korea was that corner oriental nation!!

Os I don't want to get into a bunch of wars if thats what you mean, and I think somewhere you said something about tibet and the territories you ab japan control. I stated I have no control of them in my app if not then I meant to.

So am I accepted

[Western Imperial Union]

whats been happening?

Well... your China is in the process of being taken over by another person, if that's what you were wondering ^^;;;

Er.... Awkward

[Oscalantine]

Well... your China is in the process of being taken over by another person, if that's what you were wondering ^^;;;

Er.... Awkward

XDDDD don't worry, he gave up on the RP, you jumped in. 'tis fine XDDD

Well... you said "modern day China" I am only giving up to where the Ming was... minus Manchuria that happens to be taken by Korean and Japan.

As long as that is okay... I may need to revisit the app, but I think it would be acceptable ^^

[Oscalantine]

Full Nation Name : Cheng Dynasty of the Chinese Empire
Majority/Official Culture : Chinese Mongolian
Territorial Core : modern core china excluding the himilayas, and areas controlled by korea and japan and brittany plus eastern part of ghobi desert Southern mongolia is a vassal state
Territorial Claim : northern Mongolia, S.E asia
Capital City : Nanjing
Population : 90 million

Government Type : [[Monarchy, Republic, etc.]] Monarchy
Government Ideology/Policies : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Militant, Imperialist, Expansionist, etc.]] Imperialist, Expansionist
Government Focus : [[Tell me a little bit about what is your government’s focus… be it military, economy, culture, legitimacy, etc.]] Culture
Head of State : [[highest-ranking individual in the nation according to rule of law]] Emperor Bai Cheng of the Cheng Dynasty
Head of Government : [[highest-ranking defacto ruler]] """
Government Description :Absolute monarchy made possible as the people are more concerned with the idea of defending their nation's traditions.

Majority/State Religion : [[OPTIONAL]] [[It does not have to be IRL religion]] Taoism
Religious Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

Economic Ideologies : [[Capitalism, Mercantilism, Socialism, Communism, etc.]] Socialism
Major Production : Textiles
Economic Description : very powerful due to massive workforce and vast resources

Army Strength : Massive with conscription now the norm in war time
Army Weakness : too many men too train properly and in some poorer provinces too many to arm properly
Naval Strength : strong firepower with much better grade cannons
Naval Weakness : slow and weak to enemy attack at close range
Further Military Description : [[OPTIONAL]]

National Goals : expand to mongolia and south east asia
National Issues : being technology to the outlying provinces
National Figures of Interest : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Are there any Mother Teresas or Moses that we need to know about?]]
National Ambition/Aspirations : [[OPTIONAL]] [[Not really a set objective, but rather the big picture that your nation is drawing towards]] east asian dominance

History : [[Can be in paragraph or bulletpoint timeline.]]
Picks up in 1849 when anti khanate moves into position.

More and more high ranking advisers and military staff had become chinese and so by 1949 fewer than one in seventeen nobles considered themselves khanate rather than chinese citizens. In 1949 a young ambitious man became head general of the Khan's army and began to sow the seeds of the Khanates transition. This man would later be called Bai Cheng

He eliminated Mongolian presence in the military appointing newer nationalistic Chinese in their place. Soon his army was Chinese not Khanate.

On september 5th began what would be called the september coup. Cheng led a force of 17,000 Chinese troops into the Khan's palace grounds. A short fight took place the Khan's forces were destroyed and the Khan himself captured.

While mist of the army was now chinese the Northern corps were almost exclusively mongolian. Led by the only son of the hostage khan they attacked into the now quickly fortifying chinese territory.

For the next three weeks little fighting occurred until the battle of Nanjing. While the Mongolian forces one the battle by forcing the enemy out of the city they had lost too many troops in doing so. They became surrounded and were forced to surrender.

The Khans were spared in the October Treaty of Nanjing and given governorship of mongolia to them as a vassal state of the new chinese empire.

Even though given a chance the son of the Khan fled to the northern part of the nation and seceded with what became known as the New Golden Horde. The former Khan was killed by his own son and a mongol loyal to Cheng was put in power of Southern mongolia. Soon the young northern Khan had also been killed in the fighting and North Mongolia sued for peace. The treaty of the Horse tribes brought an end to the conflict in December 1850.

By 1852 the Chinese empire has successfully consolidated and retains control of southern Mongolia, Chinese manchuria, China proper, and the eastern Ghobi.

Comparison Points – Political : [[How much national focus is gone into administrating the government, i.e. espionage, royal marriages, counter-intelligence, etc.]] 3
Comparison Points – Cultural/Religious : [[How much national focus is gone into religious and or cultural aspects, i.e. asking for excommunication, call for crusade, soviet revolution in other nations, etc.]]3
Comparison Points – Economy : [[How much national focus is gone into economic matters, i.e. embargo/blockade efficiency, lasting through war of attrition, simply feeding your people better, etc.]]2
Comparison Points – Military : [[How much national focus is gone into military, i.e. discipline, morale, better tacticians/generals, etc.]] 2
Total Comparison Points used (10 Points MAX) : 10/10

Right found it~!!

I see that Helghan approved it, so yes, fix that territory stuff and you are approved ^^

[The New Greek Republic]

Can I into Persiya

[Oscalantine]

Can I into Persiya

errr... ... ... well... ... ... persian gulf is being controlled by pirate events ^^;;;

Are you okay with that?

[The New Greek Republic]

Can I into Persiya

errr... ... ... well... ... ... persian gulf is being controlled by pirate events ^^;;;

Are you okay with that?

I think I could try

[Timothia]

I won't be able to post tomorrow, I have a packed rl, but I guarantee an IC post as soon as I can get one up. Probably within 48 hours.

If, by some miracle, someone wants to initiate contact with Bermuda instead of the other way around, I'll be able to answer fairly soon. And I welcome all trade offers.

[Oscalantine]

errr... ... ... well... ... ... persian gulf is being controlled by pirate events ^^;;;

Are you okay with that?

I think I could try

Go right ahead ^^ Wish you best of luck~!!