1850 : Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC][CLOSED]

[Novacom]

None of these were able to or did send expeditions to the new world, emigrating was incredibly difficult in the past many who tried to emigrate that far didn't survive, like I said my bone of contention is not what it actually is, but rather it's scope, as Orthodoxy did not spread very far outside of Europe, and only really in areas colonised by orthodox nations, claiming to have Orthodox Minorities which you can then use as casus belli is too much. Like I said claiming to have Orthodox Minorities in Japan or me for example would go down like the Hindenburg and likely have the same fallout, it works for Europe and the middle east but nowhere else as it is unlikely if not highly improbable that there will be an influx of Orthodox worshipers emigrating.

*sigh*

First of all, I would never use that thing as an casus belli. The guidance is religious. Besides, the only places with important Orthodox minorities are in Eastern Europe and Southern Italy

Then, as the others said, a 1%-2% Orthodox minority can exist in every nation. Which means that your initial argument is invalid. As long as there are 100 Orthodox people somewhere, I can create a Patriarchate there.

Also, about the immigrants, if I'm not wrong, and we're in the 1850's, this should be the period with high immigration in the Americas.

I'm very surprised by not using that as a reason as not only is it plausible it happened, although the wording wasn't the same the idea of it was one of the reasons the Russians used for the Crimean War, not saying you couldn't create said Patriarchs with or without that guidance but it's practicality is confined to Europe and the middle east and well possibly north Africa. My whole objection is the scope being global, nothing else that one thing.

65-67 million seemed to be a number people agreed upon so I've went with that.

Damn thats high. Higher then the whole RL population of South and North America in 1850. In a country with very limited amounts of arable land that sounds a bit extreme.

To be fair my knowledge of the actual land itself is quite limited, the Aztecs arn't really covered much in the British school system (they weren't at all when I went to school about 10 years ago and that now makes me feel old) and I was going to go for an agriculture guidance but plumped for the medical one as making more sense, than saying the plagues didn't effect the Aztec's at all and nothing was gained or lost from that fact, the end.

[Tracian Empire]

*sigh*

First of all, I would never use that thing as an casus belli. The guidance is religious. Besides, the only places with important Orthodox minorities are in Eastern Europe and Southern Italy

Then, as the others said, a 1%-2% Orthodox minority can exist in every nation. Which means that your initial argument is invalid. As long as there are 100 Orthodox people somewhere, I can create a Patriarchate there.

Also, about the immigrants, if I'm not wrong, and we're in the 1850's, this should be the period with high immigration in the Americas.

I'm very surprised by not using that as a reason as not only is it plausible it happened, although the wording wasn't the same the idea of it was one of the reasons the Russians used for the Crimean War, not saying you couldn't create said Patriarchs with or without that guidance but it's practicality is confined to Europe and the middle east and well possibly north Africa. My whole objection is the scope being global, nothing else that one thing,

Once again, are you claiming that there are no Orthodox people in the rest of Africa? The Americas? Asia?

[Novacom]

I'm very surprised by not using that as a reason as not only is it plausible it happened, although the wording wasn't the same the idea of it was one of the reasons the Russians used for the Crimean War, not saying you couldn't create said Patriarchs with or without that guidance but it's practicality is confined to Europe and the middle east and well possibly North Africa. My whole objection is the scope being global, nothing else that one thing.

Re-read what I've said, for example declaring a Patriarch of one thousand people in Brazil demeans the entire thing, I do not deny that they exist elsewhere, I question the practicality of it outside of Europe, The Middle East and North Africa!

[Tracian Empire]

I'm very surprised by not using that as a reason as not only is it plausible it happened, although the wording wasn't the same the idea of it was one of the reasons the Russians used for the Crimean War, not saying you couldn't create said Patriarchs with or without that guidance but it's practicality is confined to Europe and the middle east and well possibly North Africa. My whole objection is the scope being global, nothing else that one thing.

Re-read what I've said, for example declaring a Patriarch of one thousand people in Brazil demeans the entire thing, I do not deny that they exist elsewhere, I question the practicality of it outside of Europe, The Middle East and North Africa!

First of all, the North Africa thing does not matter, since there is only one Patriarch for the entirety of Africa.

Second, I don't see why is the business of the Orthodox Church annoying the Aztek player.

Then finally, if I want to do it, I can do it. I don't see why the Patriarch of Antioch should have the influence in the Americas, so I created an Orthodox Patriarch under the Ecumenical Patriarch. That's it.

[Second Helghan Empire]

Tracian what do you mean by that he is only supreme for catholics I thought.

That's the problem. The Orthodox Church does not recognize his supremacy, and this is what stops any possible unity. The Pope created the Schism after all.

It is a different dogma and different denomination I don't understand the desire to destroy the pope so badly, there is still an orthodox church in rome and alexandria, why pick a fight with the catholics

[Kosovo12345]

But....The Russian Orthodox Church is trying to make itself the leading power.

[Tracian Empire]

That's the problem. The Orthodox Church does not recognize his supremacy, and this is what stops any possible unity. The Pope created the Schism after all.

It is a different dogma and different denomination I don't understand the desire to destroy the pope so badly, there is still an orthodox church in rome and alexandria, why pick a fight with the catholics

According to my guidance, the Orthodox Patriarch in Italy is in Ravenna.

Then, the dogma and isn't hat different. The differences seem stupid to me, but yeah.

The Pope was the greatest enemy of the Byzantines, so he is the greatest enemy of the Roman Empire. I don't want to destroy him, I want to resolve the problems peacefully.

[Tracian Empire]

But....The Russian Orthodox Church is trying to make itself the leading power.

Well, sorry, but as Constantinople never fell, without a major war between the Imperium and Russia, there is no way the ROC would have become autocephalous. You are lucky your Metropolitan was raised to the rank of Patriarch.

[Timothia]

I'd love to make you an autonomous protectorate, nothing would change except a 5% of your total nation profit would go to me, and a small garrison of 1,000 Hanseatic troops would build an garrison a fort on Bermuda.

So you would gain protection from arguably among the top three nations on the planet.

I was going to do that. And seeing how I've for territory closer to them than you do...
*rolls up warships to Bermuda*

*rubs hands together* Yesssssss, fight over me.

[Kosovo12345]

But....The Russian Orthodox Church is trying to make itself the leading power.

Well, sorry, but as Constantinople never fell, without a major war between the Imperium and Russia, there is no way the ROC would have become autocephalous. You are lucky your Metropolitan was raised to the rank of Patriarch.

well..my military outnumbers yours....

[Novacom]

Re-read what I've said, for example declaring a Patriarch of one thousand people in Brazil demeans the entire thing, I do not deny that they exist elsewhere, I question the practicality of it outside of Europe, The Middle East and North Africa!

First of all, the North Africa thing does not matter, since there is only one Patriarch for the entirety of Africa.

Second, I don't see why is the business of the Orthodox Church annoying the Aztek player.

Then finally, if I want to do it, I can do it. I don't see why the Patriarch of Antioch should have the influence in the Americas, so I created an Orthodox Patriarch under the Ecumenical Patriarch. That's it.

It's the one simple matter that your claiming Orthodox Minorities in every nation and then setting up someone responsible for those, attempting to do so could likely have resulted in another schism, and from the sounds of things cause a Schism with Russia, and if that does happen it somewhat undermines the fact your claiming it to have Global Effects. I am not objecting to it being a thing in Europe, or The Middle East or North Africa, I am Objecting to it having any effect whatsoever in the Americas or Asia for that matter.

[Of the Quendi]

I recommended that number as the aztec actually had more advanced farming techniques allows him to compensate. And with almost no plagues his population is acceptable.

The Aztecs did not have more advanced farming techniques then the 19th century, and most certainly not the early 20th century. Yet in 1950 Mexico only had 3.7 million acres of land used for crops. That can't possibly be enough to feed so huge a population.

[Tracian Empire]

Well, sorry, but as Constantinople never fell, without a major war between the Imperium and Russia, there is no way the ROC would have become autocephalous. You are lucky your Metropolitan was raised to the rank of Patriarch.

well..my military outnumbers yours....

Do you want a major war between us to have happened? That would have led to the excommunication of the Russian Patriarch.

[Tracian Empire]

First of all, the North Africa thing does not matter, since there is only one Patriarch for the entirety of Africa.

Second, I don't see why is the business of the Orthodox Church annoying the Aztek player.

Then finally, if I want to do it, I can do it. I don't see why the Patriarch of Antioch should have the influence in the Americas, so I created an Orthodox Patriarch under the Ecumenical Patriarch. That's it.

It's the one simple matter that your claiming Orthodox Minorities in every nation and then setting up someone responsible for those, attempting to do so could likely have resulted in another schism, and from the sounds of things cause a Schism with Russia, and if that does happen it somewhat undermines the fact your claiming it to have Global Effects. I am not objecting to it being a thing in Europe, or The Middle East or North Africa, I am Objecting to it having any effect whatsoever in the Americas or Asia for that matter.

I don't see how another Schism would have happened.

So what? If you want to burn the Orthodox people in our lands at stake, do it. I won't stop you. But you can't deny their existence, and you certainly can't stop me from creating those respective Patriarchates.

[Novacom]

It's the one simple matter that your claiming Orthodox Minorities in every nation and then setting up someone responsible for those, attempting to do so could likely have resulted in another schism, and from the sounds of things cause a Schism with Russia, and if that does happen it somewhat undermines the fact your claiming it to have Global Effects. I am not objecting to it being a thing in Europe, or The Middle East or North Africa, I am Objecting to it having any effect whatsoever in the Americas or Asia for that matter.

I don't see how another Schism would have happened.

So what? If you want to burn the Orthodox people in our lands at stake, do it. I won't stop you. But you can't deny their existence, and you certainly can't stop me from creating those respective Patriarchates.

Pretty sure I can deny if there are any Orthodox worshipers within my own borders as can other people, as for creating a Patriarch for them, nobody would stop you, nor would they try it's more the common sense factor, my entire argument was the practicality of it being Global in effect and all of a sudden stating every nation has an Orthodox Minority.

As for another Schism, well Someone has literally just said they want to make their own Orthodox church more powerful and you would excommunicate them, meaning the two would develop separately, sounds like a Schism to me.

And Lenyo just seen your post I'll whip up a reply as I evidently have a lot of diplomacy to do now

[Tracian Empire]

I did this map in order to show how big Constantinople is. The red line represents the original, real life fortifications of the city, the purple line the fortifications build around the 1400's, and the black line the modern Western-like fortifications that will be finished soon. The grey squares are the forts built for the defense of the strait. Praesidio started as a fort, and it's a city now.

http://imgur.com/bz9AcrN

[Second Helghan Empire]

I recommended that number as the aztec actually had more advanced farming techniques allows him to compensate. And with almost no plagues his population is acceptable.

The Aztecs did not have more advanced farming techniques then the 19th century, and most certainly not the early 20th century. Yet in 1950 Mexico only had 3.7 million acres of land used for crops. That can't possibly be enough to feed so huge a population.

Their agricultural technology such as was used around modern day mexico city was revolutionary and so could have advanced with the civilization. We already had this argument with Tracians greek fire it is already accepted now stop picking a fight with everyone.

[Tracian Empire]

I don't see how another Schism would have happened.

So what? If you want to burn the Orthodox people in our lands at stake, do it. I won't stop you. But you can't deny their existence, and you certainly can't stop me from creating those respective Patriarchates.

Pretty sure I can deny if there are any Orthodox worshipers within my own borders as can other people, as for creating a Patriarch for them, nobody would stop you, nor would they try it's more the common sense factor, my entire argument was the practicality of it being Global in effect and all of a sudden stating every nation has an Orthodox Minority.

As for another Schism, well Someone has literally just said they want to make their own Orthodox church more powerful and you would excommunicate them, meaning the two would develop separately, sounds like a Schism to me.

And Lenyo just seen your post I'll whip up a reply as I evidently have a lot of diplomacy to do now

If the guidance is accepted, you will have to make a counter guidance in order to have no Orthodox people there.

I don't see how the Orthodox minorities will pose any problems. This isn't the Crusades Era anymore.

Also, about Russia, I said that if he want's be autocephalous, there must have been a war in the past. A war would have meant the excommunication of the Russian Patriarch. Notice how I am using the past tense. A Schism would happen if he would also excommunicate my Patriarch, which would leave Russia isolated religious-wise.

[Second Helghan Empire]

I did this map in order to show how big Constantinople is. The red line represents the original, real life fortifications of the city, the purple line the fortifications build around the 1400's, and the black line the modern Western-like fortifications that will be finished soon. The grey squares are the forts built for the defense of the strait. Praesidio started as a fort, and it's a city now.

http://imgur.com/bz9AcrN

That seems a little excessive

[Tracian Empire]

I did this map in order to show how big Constantinople is. The red line represents the original, real life fortifications of the city, the purple line the fortifications build around the 1400's, and the black line the modern Western-like fortifications that will be finished soon. The grey squares are the forts built for the defense of the strait. Praesidio started as a fort, and it's a city now.

http://imgur.com/bz9AcrN

That seems a little excessive

Constantinople was the biggest city in the world for a long time. Without the wars and the crusades that happened in real life, the city would have flourished.

[Novacom]

Pretty sure I can deny if there are any Orthodox worshipers within my own borders as can other people, as for creating a Patriarch for them, nobody would stop you, nor would they try it's more the common sense factor, my entire argument was the practicality of it being Global in effect and all of a sudden stating every nation has an Orthodox Minority.

As for another Schism, well Someone has literally just said they want to make their own Orthodox church more powerful and you would excommunicate them, meaning the two would develop separately, sounds like a Schism to me.

And Lenyo just seen your post I'll whip up a reply as I evidently have a lot of diplomacy to do now

If the guidance is accepted, you will have to make a counter guidance in order to have no Orthodox people there.

I don't see how the Orthodox minorities will pose any problems. This isn't the Crusades Era anymore.

Also, about Russia, I said that if he want's be autocephalous, there must have been a war in the past. A war would have meant the excommunication of the Russian Patriarch. Notice how I am using the past tense. A Schism would happen if he would also excommunicate my Patriarch, which would leave Russia isolated religious-wise.

I'm pretty sure that Russia would end up permanently excommunicated then given his stated intent, which would by it's nature if he could not subjugate you under him would likely mean him trying to be better than you which would cause divergence and eventually be regarded as a schism.

Actually I would argue that I would argue it till the cow's came home, I'd want to know why I have a minority apart from "cuz reasons," I'd want to know how it got there, how it expanded (because I'm pretty damned sure by the same virtue of "cuz reasons" it wouldn't have been allowed to die out) and finally how it existing can be reconciled with the whole apart from the french I had next to nothing to do with most of the world until fairly recently. most if not all of the other guidance's provide benefits, they don't negatively effect anybody nor impinge upon others backstories but rather enhance it, the transplant of an orthodox minority into Japan for example seems as natural and as nonsensical as human centepeding together one of every bird species going and then claiming you discovered a new species of bird...

[Second Helghan Empire]

That seems a little excessive

Constantinople was the biggest city in the world for a long time. Without the wars and the crusades that happened in real life, the city would have flourished.

Hmm so shouldn't the funds go to better making more civil projects come to fruition. Such as water transport, roads, markets, and community areas. Really your obsession with defense could negatively affect your populace

[Tracian Empire]

Constantinople was the biggest city in the world for a long time. Without the wars and the crusades that happened in real life, the city would have flourished.

Hmm so shouldn't the funds go to better making more civil projects come to fruition. Such as water transport, roads, markets, and community areas. Really your obsession with defense could negatively affect your populace

The red walls were there for centuries. The purple walls were built in the 1400's. The black fortifications were built in the last 100 years, step by step.

[Second Helghan Empire]

Hmm so shouldn't the funds go to better making more civil projects come to fruition. Such as water transport, roads, markets, and community areas. Really your obsession with defense could negatively affect your populace

The red walls were there for centuries. The purple walls were built in the 1400's. The black fortifications were built in the last 100 years, step by step.

Ah I see I better understand now, so the black is actually a collection o forts and smaller fortifications.

[Tracian Empire]

If the guidance is accepted, you will have to make a counter guidance in order to have no Orthodox people there.

I don't see how the Orthodox minorities will pose any problems. This isn't the Crusades Era anymore.

Also, about Russia, I said that if he want's be autocephalous, there must have been a war in the past. A war would have meant the excommunication of the Russian Patriarch. Notice how I am using the past tense. A Schism would happen if he would also excommunicate my Patriarch, which would leave Russia isolated religious-wise.

I'm pretty sure that Russia would end up permanently excommunicated then given his stated intent, which would by it's nature if he could not subjugate you under him would likely mean him trying to be better than you which would cause divergence and eventually be regarded as a schism.

Actually I would argue that I would argue it till the cow's came home, I'd want to know why I have a minority apart from "cuz reasons," I'd want to know how it got there, how it expanded (because I'm pretty damned sure by the same virtue of "cuz reasons" it wouldn't have been allowed to die out) and finally how it existing can be reconciled with the whole apart from the french I had next to nothing to do with most of the world until fairly recently. most if not all of the other guidance's provide benefits, they don't negatively effect anybody nor impinge upon others backstories but rather enhance it, the transplant of an orthodox minority into Japan for example seems as natural and as nonsensical as human centepeding together one of every bird species going and then claiming you discovered a new species of bird...

If he wants a schism, he can have it. That doesn't mean that all the Orthodox people in Russia would be happy with it.

First of all, if you would have noticed, there are no Patriarchs for Asia and the Far East.

Then, I'm not transplanting everything. In real life, there are Orthodox minorities everywhere in the world. I don't see what the problem is.

Then, have I ever claimed in my guidance that there must be Orthodox people in your country? The Patriarchate of the Americas is the thing that exists. Not the Patriarchate of the glorious isolated Aztek people. The last time I checked, you weren't in control of the Americas.